View Full Version : The Breeding of Asil/Grades
May 12th, 2000, 06:40 AM
I have a question for those amoung us who breed (and fight) Asil grades.
How do you breed your Broodfowl in the initial cross? Asil cock over speed hen? Or visa-versa? I've been told by a very re****ble breeder to do it the first way, Asil cock over American or speed fowl hen.
But I forgot to ask WHY. I was told that the 1/2 Asil 1/2 American would now be my Broodcock, and to breed him back to the American hens to produce 3/4 American 1/4 Asil Battlecocks.
Why not do it the other way? Could it be that they would pull too much to the Asil side if a 1/2 Asil 1/2 American pullet was used? (Being that the biddies take a bigger percentage of genes from the hens side). I have heard both methods being used, and was wondering what all of you thought about it.
Any input will be greatly appreciated.
May 12th, 2000, 03:18 PM
Ed, I am also very much curious about these Asil crosses and what makes them so good in the hands of other breeders. Countyline, who has had great winning percentages with his Asil crosses, advised me to use a pure American stag over a half American half Asil pullet. He said using another half-half as a broodcock will create offsprings that will lean heavy towards the Asil side. I guess what he was trying to say was breeding half-halfs together will not enable one to arrive at the fighting level that a half-half would have resulting from the mating of a pure Black and a pure Asil. Incidentally, I felt sorry to learn that his fine broodcock that gave him the nick to his Asil hens died. Hope this helps.
May 12th, 2000, 03:42 PM
Thank You very much for the reply.
I own one of Countylines Asil/Grade pullets, as do I own two Black Stags from his Black Broodcock.
Countyline is one of the people who has advised me on the breeding of Asil/Grades, But I am not so sure about breeding to the cocks side as being a dis-advantage. Maybe in the case of his Asil blood, but I have been told by another very sucessful Asil breeder to make the Grades using an Asil broodcock, and to breed the Grades using a 1/2 Asil 1/2 American Broodcock back over American hens. The advantage to this that I see, is the biddies actually pulling more to the American side even from the first cross. Why? Because the biddies take a higher percentage of their traits from the hen, therefore pulling more to the American side right off the bat.
Maybe my thinking is wrong about this, which is why I posted the question. I want to find out what the majority of Asil/Grade breeders do, then make my own decision on how to breed them.
Thanks again for the reply, I really appreciate it.
May 12th, 2000, 10:13 PM
Ed, just like you, I am glad that I also have gotten a couple of Asil/Black pullets and a pure Black stag from Countyline's. From reading articles written by the more visible Asil breeders, you are right: They are using a pure Asil cock over American hens for the same rationale you stated. Well, this is just my own opinion but I frankly do not see anything wrong with you using a half Asil half American cock over
a pure American hen. Everyone has his own way of doing things. What is important is you know which direction you are taking and for the trait you plan to achieve. It would seem logical to assume that when breeding two unlike families, whichever bloodline has the greater gene ratio contribution would in fact present a greater chance of having its traits expressed in their F-1(s), theoretically speaking. But genetics has its own complexities that would surprise even the best breeder there is. Countyline has been very vocal about his many years of experimentations with different kinds of Asils and I guess he was very fortunate to find this Black American breed that would nick very nicely with his Cajun Asils. Even his F-1(s) are giving him an excellent winning percentage, something other Asil breeders were not as lucky to stumble upon with their first crossing. Which would mean more time involved finding another family that would enhance or improve what they had started with. It would sure be nice if Filipino-Okie can share with us a little of his secret with his Hammerslammers. With the Asil crosses for the long knife getting more and more popular again, we'd like to hear from you guys out there. This website is such a fine place for learning and let us learn from one another. Thanks.
May 13th, 2000, 12:07 AM
Let me try and help you. The reason you were told to breed the Asil to a speed hen is because the Asils are slow. The straight ones hardly even kick. They just peck you to death. I've bred Asil/Hatch and, boy, they su*ked! So hence the recommendation you got.
Also, they told you to make it 3/4 American 1/4 Asil. That also is good advice as you really want as little Asil blood in your battlecocks as you can, and still keep the trait you are looking for (which is accurate cutting). See, Asils are not "steel" game. The are dead game in natural fights, but they cannot take the sting of steel. So making it 1/4 is better.
Some go as far as 1/8 Asil. At that point, they hardly look Oriental at all. But it's the cutting the breeders are after. Jessie Horta of Riverside, CA has 1/8 Asil battlecocks that went 6 straight at the Araneta Slashers.
For me, Asil breeding is "advanced" breeding. When I talk to more experienced men at the pits or socials, they always tell me "don't play around with them, man." But if you know what you're doing, then you might get an edge. Me, I'll stick to "basic" breeding.
Hope that helps http://www.sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smile.gif Thanks!
Originally posted by Edwin Kubojiri:
I have a question for those amoung us who breed (and fight) Asil grades.
How do you breed your Broodfowl in the initial cross? Asil cock over speed hen? Or visa-versa? I've been told by a very re****ble breeder to do it the first way, Asil cock over American or speed fowl hen.
But I forgot to ask WHY. I was told that the 1/2 Asil 1/2 American would now be my Broodcock, and to breed him back to the American hens to produce 3/4 American 1/4 Asil Battlecocks.
Why not do it the other way? Could it be that they would pull too much to the Asil side if a 1/2 Asil 1/2 American pullet was used? (Being that the biddies take a bigger percentage of genes from the hens side). I have heard both methods being used, and was wondering what all of you thought about it.
Any input will be greatly appreciated.
[This message has been edited by JC (edited 05-12-2000).]
May 13th, 2000, 03:38 AM
The reason why most breeders will breed Asil Roosters over american hen is that you can test a Rooster and not the hen. Before i breed a Rooster I need to be sure that the Qualities that I breed him for has passed on to his offspring and so with the asil..... that is the cutting ability, it is almost impossible to test the hen for cutting ability and be absolutely sure (there are ways but thats another story) I will usually test my fowl in my backyard before I put him in the pen. I cull and select even my pure Asils (or any other bird for that matter) for cutting ability, not all asils could cut. The ones that win in the first buckle i will breed over my brownred hens and the offsprings (50/50) i will use in the gaff (after testing, I will not fight my asil grades without winning in the backyard first)I then grade this down one more generation using the roosters that again win in the first buckle over the same hen for the knife (25% asil) hope this helps and keep em game
May 13th, 2000, 04:40 AM
Thank you very much Joey, that made allot of sense. I have been told to use a Gaff to test for cutting, (we only fight LK) tied on the left leg like a knife, so you can test for both Gameness and cutting,(as they take longer to finish a cock.) I am intrigued by the prospect of good cutting Battlecocks using Asil grades, so much so that I have purchased a Quail sized trio of Sontonol Asils from Jerry Hamlin for use as brood fowl for next season. I do know that it is not an easy thing to get a good cross, but I am willing to put the time into it to try. I have a great family of Kelso's, and a good family of Roundheads, and I plan on experimenting with these two to produce Grade Battlefowl. I will take your advise on testing the cocks, but only after breeding the Asil pure, I do not want to risk my one and only broodcock before getting biddies from him. I am looking forward to giving the Asils a try. I really enjoy the breeding aspect of our sport, and am very proud of my birds.
I plan to end up fighting 1/4 Asils, if they work out for me.
Thank you for the reply,
May 13th, 2000, 04:42 AM
We were able to obtain a trio of asil-crossed from a big time breeder in Tarlac about 8 years ago. We were unlucky as the cock and one hen died. The remaining hen, crossed with a whitehackle/hatch, produced accurate cutters but they lack aggression. They don't initiate an attack but rather strikes back when hit. I only admire it being a deadly sharpshooter...that is if its lucky not to be hit or could withstand the opponent's first attack. We are still experimenting on this line but not our top priority.
May 13th, 2000, 06:33 AM
With my asils I find that for the knife you need to grade them down to 1/4 and usually end up with a three way cross (brown red for speed and claret or blues for breaking ability) for the gaff I find that 50/50 is better than 1/4, if we ever end up in the drag my bird will always hunt for the head. I have been fortunate as I always lose the single stroking qualities after only one generation ( not that single stroking is bad, most of best birds are single strokers). The only problem I have with the Asils is that they take up a lot of space as I have to seperate them at 4 weeks of age and I can only single mate them as I cannot keep two hens without them killing each other in one pen. My Asils are the gentliest creature you can ever raise, I have not had one that was manshy or a manhater.
What I like about the Asils is the way they throw their feet out and you can always see when they connect. the Asils that I have are the Sonatols direct from India, I also have a few Saipans that could be mistaken for them. keep em game
May 13th, 2000, 06:41 AM
Just to add on testing them, use 1 inch gaffs. when testing for cutting ability there is no need to put gaffs on the opponent(you dont want to lose broodcock), I usually buy birds from the flea market and select fast looking birds (dark ones). keep em game
May 13th, 2000, 07:11 AM
What has been successful for me is to use the half asil on the cock side bred to hens of American bloodlines. Keep the females from this mating and breed them to your favorite speed fowl. Keep the hens that give out good ace cocks. I know this takes time but I think it's worth waiting for. Good luck.
May 15th, 2000, 03:34 AM
breeding the asil grades, assuming that you have a dead game asil cock and the fighting style to go with it, asil cock to american breed hens, and bring the asil blood down form 1/8 to 3/8's, depending as to what american strain (BLOOD LINE) your breeding it too. normally the asil grade blood is stronger than the american fowls, and that is the reason why we bring it down to this proportion. the biggest trick is to find the one strain or combination of strains (blood line), that will nick or blend to your asil grade. just be aware that when breeding gamefowl, what works on the cock side of the family, will also work on the hen side.
Kaneohe Game Farm
May 23rd, 2000, 02:34 PM
Hey Wassup Edwin..hopes this helps u well what i was told from a friend that been in cockfighting over 20 years is on breeding like ....Hatch over a Kelso Hen when the offspring comes out 1/2 1/2 take the son breed him to the mom take the Daughter and breed her the the dad..the off spring of that should be 3/4 1/4 take them breed brother and sister of the best...the off spring of that breed them to the original mother and father...that offspring should be your mark....hope this helps u ..k-den
AIR FORCE 1
May 24th, 2000, 12:59 AM
I have this question to all Asil breeders:
Asil cant be fought pure, its has some undesirable traits. Thats why we cross them to american fowls to obtain a more desirable battle cock.
Can this undesirable traits be transfered to the off springs?
If the answer is NO, so where will the undesirable traits go?
May 24th, 2000, 01:26 AM
Air Force 1,
If the undesirable traits you speak of are the "neck fighting" and "wing ducking", well, you can't really get rid of them. Some families of Asil should never be crossed for these reasons. The Boles brothers did allot of experimentation with many Asil Families, and culled all that shown these traits. In other words these Asil were bred for steel, not boxing. To my knowledge, there are only a few "small" Asil families that are suitable for crossing for LK. These families hit to the body, not only the head and neck, and are faster than the "large" Asils used for naked heel. I have heard that the Boles Asil of Matt McDaniel are very fast for Asil, and are steel game as well. They have been bred away from the naked heel style fighting, yet retain the qualities we look for when developing Battle crosses, body, station, power, and above all, cut. Not all Asil are suitable for crossing, and I feel that great care should be taken in choosing an Asil family to breed. I have just purchased a young trio of Sonotal Asils from Jerry Hamlin, that I will be breeding pure and crossing over my American hens next season. I plan on breeding them down to 8ths, with my Showtime Kelso's, Pope RH's, and Red Fox Hatch. Many tell me that the Hatch are too slow a breed to cross to the Asil, but I feel the RF are exceptionally fast for Hatch, and I'm hoping that they will nick.
Thanks for your input to the post,
May 24th, 2000, 06:05 AM
Please allow me to add more food for thought about asils. Asils are gamefowl bred originally bred for naked heel, tape fighting etc. However, as in any breeding program selection is the key, and a solid foundation can save the breeder a lot of time in meeting the goal of breeding the superior battle cock. Let me digress a bit. A friend of mine had a pure black breasted red asil that was matched into a spangled imported gamecock. I heeled him with a high point knife. Now most of you are probably thinking that it was a long fight. Not. It was one of the quickest fight on record. The asil met his opponent's challenge in the air and his foe hit the ground lifeless. The owner of the imported rooster remarked that the knife had entered the front and penetrated through the back, nearly splitting his bird in two. If I can get pure asils that fight like that, I'll have no need to cross him. To get to the point, my advice is to be on the lookout for asils that have no fault in terms of fighting. This way you don't have to wait too long to find the right percentage in your crosses. Don't mess them up by breeding them to anything that suits your fancy. Find a family of American gamefowl that can end it in one fly and don't look for a billhold, then cross them to the asil that fights the same way.
May 27th, 2000, 03:31 PM
it was through long breeding experiences of many americans that tell that the best way to do it is to breed a good asil cock over a solid winner producing proven american hen.best if you can find a medium size,round short bodied ,fast asil cock.i mean the speed type of asil that has excellent cutting ability.now look for a combination of both speed and power american hen to cross with.a friend of mine onced used a cross of blue/yellow legged hatch hen that was mated to a good round short bodied fast asil.the offsprings were all fought with great success.breeding further on the "hen side" that would produce 3/4 american 1/4 asil could be fought in long knife with good winning percentage.avoid using big type of asils.
November 27th, 2003, 08:27 PM
Hey guys,Last year I bought an oriental looking fowl from a bayong vendor so that I could use him to spar with my stags and cocks. I was thinking that when my roosters meet an off beat fowl they could adopt to the fighting style. So since a bought him I would spar him two or three times a week against two to four roosters.
Last month my friend went to fight his rooster, so just for fun I brought him along and I fought him and he won unscratch. Two weeks ago a fought him again and he won unscratch again. Then last week I fought him again and he was wonded in the feet and only the feet was injured.
So guys I need your advice, What's the best texas bloodline to cross with an oriental fowl?
November 28th, 2003, 03:11 AM
Orientals are known for their cutting ability. But many strains (not all) are not steel-game. By winning unscratched, his cutting ability may have been proven, but gameness may still be questionable. A standard cross would be to infuse some fast and game Hatch blood into the next generation. Goodluck.
November 28th, 2003, 03:17 AM
btw, fighting him 3 times in one month might be pushing his luck a bit. Prepare him well, and his performance should be even better :wink2:
November 28th, 2003, 06:36 AM
Joeper, If your 3 wins are from a 'bayong class' then you can't
tell the true caliber of your oriental.-they are accurate cutters
smart avoids to be hit,but they have cold blood, dunghills, when
they cut bad they either run or will not peck if they can't run. Now
good to breed is 3/4 blueface hatch 1/4 lacy or bruner roundhead
the only problem the offsprings will be good looking and you will
not be able to match them w/ a 'bayong' but they will still carry
dunghill blood.So you see its a big gamble to breed him.
November 28th, 2003, 08:53 AM
i was into the same dilemma three years ago. i had a three time winner spangled fowl.....blodline not really known (morgan whitehackle i think)... but medyo doubtful ang purity. his wins were awesome...he was always dehado because of his looks..but as i said he won three times with me two unscratched and one leg scratch (strangely almost the same as yours).difference is, i was too damn negligent in handling him after the last fight...in short, he died of infection...but i had him bred....with Dan Gray brood hen...The result was not very encouraging...in fact disappointing because two out of three sons went to high heavens already (if you know what i mean).
at any rate, bien may be right. blue face will do for infusion of gameness.....the danger there is i think, the infusion will slow the genes down...and his offsprings will not be as fast or skillful as he is....As bien said..its one helluva gamble....
kung ako siguro... i will look for broodhens na kapatid ng mga bayong winner fowls...to perpetuate their skill.....just an opinion.
November 29th, 2003, 12:12 AM
I think it's best to cross orientals with a good proven family of blacks. It corrects the faults of the blacks hyper activity and at the same time corrects the slugishness of the orientals. What you hope to produce is a fast powerful fowl that can move and cut. Just like the Boles black. I have seen it done, with a mitra fowl crossed to an unknown black.
November 30th, 2003, 08:01 PM
There are indeed a few Orientals there that fight good and have bottoms. Though im not much into Oriental fowls unlike my late dad,who have fought his Parawakan Asil grades in Araneta derbies more than a decade ago, and won some convincing fights against top caliber cockers, if im not mistaken he crossed his Orientals with Blueface Hatch & Mclean Hens, strains known for power and bottom.:hombre:
December 2nd, 2003, 10:06 PM
Thanks for the inputs guys. I know I could count on the CF to help me.
January 17th, 2004, 03:53 PM
quote fm JC;
For me, Asil breeding is "advanced" breeding. When I talk to more experienced men at the pits or socials, they always tell me "don't play around with them, man." But if you know what you're doing, then you might get an edge. Me, I'll stick to "basic" breeding.
I'm just a neophyte in breeding but would like to experiment in breeding Asils. Though they said it's already considered an "advanced breeding", I really would like to try it.
My question is; were can i buy asil broodhens to cross with my hatch grey or imported (daw) roundhead?
January 17th, 2004, 10:03 PM
Edwin, I have purchased a couple of grade hens that are 1/4 Hamlin Roundhead, 1/4 Hamlin Asil, 1/2 Doc Robinson Hatch. The man I bought these from got his brood stock direct from Mr. Hamlin. I will cross my 1/4 Boles Asil 3/4 Marsh butcher cock over these hens and see what I get.
The reason I'm not going to cross over an American speed hen is because he is already fast enough as well as having plenty of bottom. I have bred him that way in the past but too many of the asil qualities are lost. When I breed him back to his daughters they come out just right, but I need to get some new blood in the mix before things start going downhill. I hope these hens will give me the right nick. If they don't, I will continue the search until I find what I am after.
When I bred my pure Asil cocks over American speed hens in the beggining If the 50/50s didn't hold up to the competition with "brand name birds" I culled them. I didn't see any point to watering down bad Asil qualities with speed hens just to try and gain a little power. I think that is what a lot of people are doing when they have to breed down to 1/4 or less to get what they see as satisfactory.
If they don't fight well as 1/2 breeds then I think you will never have anything better than average fowl. After I get good 1/2 breeds I take them down further because the stags mature faster and gain higher station.
I have bred american cocks over good asil hens in the past and the results are less than desirable. I don't know why this is. everyone has opinions on the subject but I'm not going to waste my time wondering. I just know it doesn't work for me.
February 4th, 2004, 10:23 PM
I am just wondering why not many people breed Asils in the Philippines. Apparently this is a very hardy and tough breed. A very old breed that was bred specifically for fighting.
As I have been seeing around in the Philippines and also in the Member Galleries, most people breed American type cocks.
Is there a particular reason for this? I am a beginner so I may be missing the obvious. Can someone explain?
February 5th, 2004, 12:12 AM
my family and i have been, or was (i'm no longer active in raising fowl after moving to the us, but still follow the sport) breeding asil crosses (mitra 56) for a number of years, decades really. the main reason folks do not like asil crosses is simply because of their looks - asils are simply 'pangit' (ugly) to look at - 'mukhang native' (looks like a barnyard chicken). in a macho world like cockfighting, the good-looking bird is always 'llamado' (odds-on favorite) - assuming both are unknown birds. to some, why would one waste their time and money on ugly birds when they can spend the same on good-looking 'texas' (american-, western breed) birds. it all boils down to cosmetic preferences. not to mention, the asil's questionable gameness (see 'macho' above). but that is not to say all asils are dunghills, i've seen asils pecked their way to a win up to the last second.
to an astute cockfighter, this is an opportunity that can be exploited especially in hacks. we have been quite successful percentage wise (at least >50% wins) w/ our 56 crosses in hacks, for two reasons; looks (see above) and the physique of an asil cross. asil crosses are heavy-boned and have close-, thin-set feathers that belie their approximate weight. this advantage is somewhat lost in derbies, however. but then again, look how successful the late Speaker Mitra was in the big-time derby circuit. i'm sure he won more than he lost.
another reason, but this is more on style, is because asils are not flashy fighters - they are slow, single stroke fighters. again, they are not good eye-candies.
so to answer your question, there are far fewer cockers who appreciate the asil's 'hidden' qualities than those who prefer the goodlooking, all-flashy, never-say-die western breeds - thus it is less popular.
February 5th, 2004, 02:47 AM
thank you for your explanation. Very much appreciated
February 5th, 2004, 05:33 AM
Not all breeders are convinced that Asils are steel game fowls.And that basically is the reason why it so seldom that you see a breeder whose fowls are predominantly asils.Some folks always point to the fact that this breed has quetionable gameness although some strain are being used by some chickenmen to cross with their American type fowl to produce battlecrossess.Some have been successful,the likes of Ray Alexander,Ramon Mitra,Grey Soldiers of Glenn Justiss of Omaha,Texas.Mr. Travis Clark of Lampe,Missouri has some,Paul Hulin of Louisiana to name a few.
We've been trying to breed some for 2 years now and we are still in the process of testing the offsprings.They have been showing good during sparring sessions.We tested one sweater/asil cross last year...he went to the drag...he lost but did not run and i think that was a good sign.Come February 7 we are going to fight some of their lines again....blackgrey/asil,sweater/radio/asil crosses...hopefully the results will be good.
marlon c. angay
February 5th, 2004, 01:08 PM
I got Asil crosses this time and unfortunately most of his brother and sister gone by unconcern immunization of fowls in my place without taking extra measures about other business…just maybe telling us to do the vaccination also…so that’s it…
IMHO…the Asil grade that I produce is a nice looking cross…nice tight feather…I’ve tried him sparred in some other lines of fighting cocks here…and it seems he got the potential to over shadow his opponent…very very smart, can do the wave, side step and have cut…even back step…the legs are like machine gun...however, I don’t know if this will do in the steel…I plan to have him in the hack fight but i don’t want to lost him without something to look after like him…I read that fowl with oriental blood should not be fought below 2 yrs old…right now I got ¼ strain of Asil and if I can propagate out of him it might be a 1/8 strain and 7/8 out of the any Speeder hen because this is the missing line.
Well! I think some of the fowl that was fought in the WSD2004 got some of the Asil blood in them e.g. the “Hatchet” …for what I’ve heard there’s Oriental blood x Brownred line that infuse to the other line… and they got amazing performance 6W2L is not bad but promising show.
And also I read and heard that some of the great fighter in America cockfighting use the oriental blood to have a better fighting style and solid body with power that was not in their line of breed if I’m not mistaken Bobby Boles is one of the great oriental man…
For me it will be a research of breeding that may be someday give the breeder to think of Asil as (Oriental blood) or will be the best cross for LK in the Philippines…and we might be considering the fact that some of the strain here brought by American breeders already have the oriental blood in them…like the roundhead…the peacomb one is the sign of oriental blood in them….just my lil view and opinion.
February 5th, 2004, 02:22 PM
Mi Amigo dakogitlog, to explain it simple, i think IMHO that is a matter of appearance and "cache"..Most Filipinos go more for the looks than for the quality. As Asils being not game, let the guys go to Thailand and see an Asil fight, and then you guys tell me. I have seen American imported that have run away like marathon runners, but for the Filipino, whatever is American, is better. Is why Starbucks coffe is better than the coffe of a Carenderia, is the impression that it can be created.. Asils have been fought for so long in the regions of Pakistan, India, and else, and have proven to be very brave, not to say strong.. So , is a matter of preferences and psychological issues...I hope that someday the so called"great breeders" of the Philippines can come out with a bloodline that is less dependent of Texans, kentuckians and else..Then they can be called great breeders..im not taking nothing from them, but iMHO they havent shown what a great breeder is and that is to come out with something new and not spread all over the country.....want to malke sure once more, that my comments arent meant to offend or to denigrate any breeder here.......Thanks.....
February 5th, 2004, 05:51 PM
i beg to disagree, asil are very g ame in the naked heel, but not very game in steel....except tha very, very, very few.
that is the simple reason.
id love to haveand fight asil grades, that are quick and game enough for the long knife, but only a few breeders have them.
they are simply rare.
and most of breeders cant afford to start from scratch.mitra put so much time, money, effort, etc to produce that famous mitra fowl.
one story is that he slaughtered whole yards of hundreds of experimental crosses when the brothers he fught were not game.
i would be very interested if someone can help me acquire a genuine mitra fowl.
February 5th, 2004, 08:28 PM
Many are unaware of the value and benefits of breeding Orientals. It is also due to the unavailability of good grades. I don’t think good Oriental grades would be available commercially. The same could be true with good American fowls. That is why there is a need for importation. Due to the frequency of hacks and derbies, we tend to acquire what is winning now. Some don’t seem to have the patience, knowledge in breeding Orientals and American fowls as well because some local magazines promote more advertisements than educating us on bloodlines. Some cockers fortunately have them but don't know what to do with it. Over the years, I have helped lesser known people with Oriental grades. It made them happy, but where do they go from here??? There's more to breeding..................I guess you really got to have the heart.............................not just the fever
February 6th, 2004, 01:51 PM
do you know kuotbilat from dumaguete?
February 6th, 2004, 03:14 PM
I think the reason why not a lot of cockers are in to Asils is for practicality reasons:
1. For orientals, you need to have them age, 2 years min. That means you spend a lot of money for feeds, vitamins, etc. Then when you fight it, the chance of winning is still of course 50/50.
2. Asils weight much heavier than american speed fowls, that means if you go to derbies then it's hard to find a match.
3. Gameness usually comes with age. If you try to pit a 6 mo. old asil versus 6 mo. old american speed fowl, there is a pretty good chance for the asil to run. After 2 years, it's a different story.
4. If you are breeding to sell, it would be hard to sell an ugly-looking fowl for a good price.
5. Crossing asil with American speed fowls I think will require a lot of trial and error and once you get a nick it's hard to replicate it back. I think aggression and coolness can not go together.
So, use Asil for your own consumption and fiight them in hacks. Just make sure you age them. I personally like asils because of fighting style, so I use them in my experimental breeding as well, but now, I'm considering of breeding them pure and fighting them pure. 1/16 Asil grades, like most people would recommend is like saying no Asil blood at all.
February 7th, 2004, 11:49 AM
Simple, Asil on its pure state is not ideal for slasher fight as what we have here in PI. Asil cross up to 1/4,1/8,1/16 of its blood to American fowl is very ideal to suit to our slasher fight.
" Life is Short...Enjoy "
February 7th, 2004, 01:44 PM
The main reason why we filipinos don't like asil grades was because asil have only 3 styles of fighting (slow but sure blows, sidestepping and a vertical cutter (jumping jack style)) his aggressiveness comes out only when it reaches the age of 2 years, it also dies very fast, when hit looks like being shocked.....while compared to american gamefowl who has (speed, gameness or aggressiveness, sidestepping, backstepping, smart, slasher,good cutter, multiple shuffler)....yes it's true that asil are good for american gamecock crossbreeding but you need only to infuse 1/4, 1/8 asil blood...once you go more than that the aggressiveness will be lost.
......the most important thing is it's aggressiveness (drag fight), secondly is it's cutting ability (either timing, one hard hit or a multiple shuffler), 3rd it's speed, 4th it's smartness.
.....as a breeder you need to have a keen look at the fighting style whether he kills on air or on ground.
.......when it's a grounder you need to infuse it with:
-has the multiple shuffle. (SWEATER, GREY, BUTCHER, DOM, BLACK)
-has the cautious sidestepping or backstepping (GREY,BROWNRED,BLACK)
-has the speed for follow-up after sidestepping (GREY,LEMON, DOM, BUTCHER, BROWNRED, HENNIE)
-has the body hunter (ALMOST ALL BLOODLINES)
-has the aggressiveness (HATCH (greenleg))
-has the smartness (cautious) (LEMON, DOM, BUTCHER)
........when it's a flyer you need to infuse it with:
- multiple shuffler (SWEATER, GREY, BUTCHER, DOM, BLACK)
- timing or one good blow (very hard) (ASIL, BLUE, PYLE, ROUNDHEAD, CLARET,BLACK)
- a rusher (speed) (SWEATER, HENNIE, BLACK)
- a flyer or a jumper (KELSO, LEMON, BROWNRED, RADIO, ROUNDHEAD hatch, YELLOWLEG hatch, CLARET, BLACK, HENNIE)
- aggressiveness (HATCH (greenleg))
- sidestepping (GREY, DOM, BROWNRED, LEMON, BUTCHER, HENNIE,ASIL)
- a head hunter or wing or back shuffler (slasher). (ASIL, HATCH)
February 7th, 2004, 09:09 PM
In our yard asils show disease resistance and good cutting ability. Before anything else though, you have to find an asil that is steel game and this is where the start of all the problems begin with breeding them. If you don't get a steel game asil you're going to get runners. For us, we love ours and they are mighty ugly to look at. :) someone quoted in tagalog saying " if you are going to look at a rooster might as well look at a pretty one". Good luck YFIS
February 9th, 2004, 09:52 AM
Yes, disease resistance, improved cutting and steel game. Most Orientals here are not steel game that is why they have to be graded more. Steel game Orientals cut to the body and don't go for a bill hold due to the headback and legs out style of cutting. Grading steel game Orientals is the same as crossing American fowls. Sometimes your kelso or lemon need a shot in the arm of mclean and you just need 1/4 or 1/8 infusion. Same grading system with a different label. American fowls are being injected with so many medications, steel game Orientals can take the needle too. Only a few people would be willing to share their steel game Orientals the same story too with proven American fowls.
February 10th, 2004, 11:37 AM
No, I don't know KuotBilat but i know Hilapadpuday from Minglanilla, Cebu.
February 10th, 2004, 01:49 PM
Ako gustong gusto ko ang ASIL kasi pag binaliktad mo ay napakagandang dalaga LISA....lalo na pag nakabaliktad si LISA mas maganda pa....:eek:
February 10th, 2004, 02:08 PM
I have a pure bred malaysian azis but i dont know where to fight them.we all know that this breed can't fight with knife and can easily be killed with one.I really want to see them with nacked heel
February 10th, 2004, 05:53 PM
If you are here in the Philippines, try contacting Rolly Ramos of Calamba, Laguna. I think he is involved with an Asil Fighting Club.
February 11th, 2004, 12:41 AM
BG, si edkiang preho yata ng bisyo natin
February 11th, 2004, 04:01 AM
Most Asils are game to the core in Vietnam. Even those purchased for as little as $US10 from backyad breeders often fight to the death with gaffs (no LK/SK in Vietnam, but I think gaffs are better to test gameness anyway). Their main weakness, however, is that they are a lot slower than western fowls. The way I look at it, accuracy doesn't mean a lot when the other guy has already cut you several times, therefore weakening you and lessening your ability. So when you finally cut him, you probably have suffered enough from your wounds that you couldn't connect w/ 100% strength and accuracy anymore... Some Roundheads are patient, defensive and accurate like Asils, but they also have speed to match any other western cocks. That's why they are so successful.
Another disadvantage Asils have compared to American birds is that they SUPPOSEDLY have LARGER internal organs, i.e. lungs, heart, liver..., which can be punctured/penetrated easier in steel fighting. I don't know how true this is since I have never personally disect and compare them, but that's what a lot of Vietnamese cockers told me. I do notice, however, that Asils die a lot quicker than American fowls when fighting with steels, so perhaps there is some truth to that.
You'll be hard pressed to find a Texan that can outlast the dense-muscled Asils in naked heel fighting though.
February 12th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Check this out ! I fought them as Stags in the Pit as my way of "Testing" their actual performance. So far my records shows that my 1/4 Asil line has got 90% winning percentage & 1/8's with 100% at no lost at all.
February 12th, 2004, 08:30 PM
What is the blend of this cock. Surely looks tough.
February 13th, 2004, 11:32 AM
IMHO people don't breed Asils cause of lack of knowledge or as has been said beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Hopefully I don't often my fellow Cockers what I'm saying here wouldbe from personal experience only and a little from others taking or reading.
Any breed fights better, much more game after two years unless just out from breeding.
Again IMHO the most important part of the bloodline is the healthful upbringing of the birds. This is to say that alot of the weakness start when they were young and they get bullied around and since Asils are late developers as gameness is concern, they tend to hit the road.
Oriental Cockers believe that 2yrs is the min. age and I favor that, what I'm saying if you don't have the patience to wait then better do the homework.
One other thing, I breed Hennies and also believe what I heard before that they come from Asils, I also breed thailand and Brazillian crossed with Sweater Greys and hatch Greys.
I fought two Hennies in a derby on the 7th.
1. against,looks like Hatch, 6x winner 4-8 over inch taller against Hennie 4.5, wings cut up and part of chest.
2. against a black shuffler 4-13 same height. Hennie 4-12, got cut in the intestine died the next day but didn't give no indecation of running.
The age of the two brothers were 20-22 mos.
Hope this helps!! Want more info please e-mail.
Thanks to all and always open to learning !!
February 13th, 2004, 10:51 PM
Here is one of my asil grades. 1/4 asil 3/4 american blood. I don't think they are ugly and they have no problem taking steel either.
April 26th, 2004, 10:10 PM
Has anybody here ever risked and successfully fought a 50% Asil x 50% American fowl bloodline in slasher fight? If yes, what American bloodline have you used? I just received a pair of pure Asils and following the usual approach of only infusing 1/8 Asil or less to the resulting battle cock takes too long a time. Thanks for the info.
I also remember having read a thread in here about ASILS but can't find it. Would someone be kind enough to point me to the right direction. Thanks again.
April 27th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Steel game Orientals can hold their own if they are well bred and selected. Graded, they should be fast enough to mix it up with the best American fowls. Headhunters would have to be graded more, as they were bred for naked heel fighting.
Steel game Orientals should be graded with well develop proven speed American fowls.
April 27th, 2004, 06:10 PM
April 27th, 2004, 07:02 PM
I've been fooling around with Asils for a while and I can tell you that there are only TWO kinds of Asils a very GOOD one and a very BAD one, nothing in between. Make sure you start with a good game pair. I have fought 50/50 in Gaffs with little success winning 40-50%, that stat I imagine would be worse in the slasher, but 25% or 1/4 Asil and it's rock and roll.......This year I have them at 1/8th and yet to test them. One thing I found is that you should always mate the Asil C.O.C.K over the American Hens. I ditched the pure Asil Hen as nothing good came out of her(six breeding seasons to find out). I now only breed Asil cocks and cull all my graded hens. I also find that crossing them to a fast line like the Hatch or Roundhead is better than with my Kelso or blue crosses. Good luck and be patient..........
April 28th, 2004, 12:47 AM
Friend Wildfoot, your timimg is impeccable. I'm currently breeding my first grade, but with a pure Asil pullet to a Vizzard Grey stag. The Asil breeder told me to always breed to the pea-comb hen, which, in this case is the Asil pullet. He said that the Asil will pick up speed as it learns when sparred to a faster opponent. And you have to spar them often but only one buckle. I'll soon find out about the same time - next year.
April 28th, 2004, 04:41 PM
I find that breeding on the hen side a bit frustrating as not only are they slower but I cant test for gameness. With Asils you never know how game they are in the knife or Gaff. In saying that my experience could be different to yours.....Sparring them may help....Let us know how yours turn out.
April 28th, 2004, 05:01 PM
Any views about the Asil Sir Glenn?
April 28th, 2004, 06:34 PM
April 29th, 2004, 09:37 AM
Two years ago, I fought half asils and half thompson whites in a stag derby and came out one of three champions in a 100plus entry 6-stag derby.
And they were bred from asil on the hen side. You would think that these would be too slow for fast competition...and they were a bit slow but, they had a mean kick that killed the other stag before they got badly hurt.
wildfoot is right that there are very good Asils and there are very bad asils... You just have to find the good ones.
The trial and error in breeding these ugly but deadly warriors becomes more rewarding if you start out with the right asils.
Last year, I fought quarter Asils and did not do to good...Although I blame it on the wrong mating...because I came out with excellent quarter asils from a different mating that came from a younger batch that were too young to fight at the time.
This year, I hope to do better with the quarter asils from the other mating...and one-eighth asils that are also super sparrers but have never been tried in the pit..
Try to find Asils that have three spurs(heavy on the Black Sumatra blood) Also, ones with very heavy plummage in the tail composed mostly of sickle feathers...(the tail should look like hundreds of young napier grass bunch up together).
The type of Asils that I described above seem to be smarter, deadly accurate cutters, and do not waste their moves, they also prefer to hit the armpit area unlike the other types that like to neck wrestle or aim for the head and neck.
Anyway, there is no magic formula for coming up with good grades...you have to try it with your own stocks...practice makes perfect..
April 29th, 2004, 12:51 PM
Any views on the fighting characteristics of an Indian asil? Thanks for your time Sir Glenn.... :-)
April 30th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Which Asils are you using?
May 2nd, 2004, 01:52 AM
My Asil strain is a blend of the following bloodlines:
Indigo Asil (Sonatol)
A breeder from Alabama have had these for 20 or so years. So, they're traits have been set and can be called as "Pure" strain.
This pullet won 1st in class in our first UGBA Gamefowl Show in Farmington, MO. I hatched out 2 more chicks just like this strain.
May 2nd, 2004, 03:09 AM
Picture of my Pure Atkinson asil broodrooster that I acquired direct from Jerry Lawrence in Texas. He breaks high, smart, fast , lots of power and very game. I have offspring from him pure and crossed and Im planning to show him in the hackfight there in PI later this year.
May 2nd, 2004, 03:15 AM
Picture of my pure atkinson asil hen in my farm in lipa City, Batangas.
May 2nd, 2004, 03:11 PM
Nice looking asils there dgrecuenco. What kind of American fowl breeds well with them?
May 2nd, 2004, 03:40 PM
That is the prettiest Asil Hen that I've ever seen. Does she have any American blood?
Below is a link of my Asil Broodcock, He is fast PURE but is a single stroker.....that is what i meant by slow, at 1/4 they become multiple shufflers and retain the accuracy of the Asils.
May 3rd, 2004, 12:24 AM
I got my pure Atkinson ASil direct from Jerry Lawrence in texas. He is a multiple shuffler and has a tough body like the true asils. According to him the atkinson asils is a combination of different asils they are called steel game asils.
May 3rd, 2004, 04:02 AM
bro dgrecuenco, you have a nice looking pair of Asils too.
wildfoot, your Asil sure has some station on him bro. I don't think that there is any American blood in my Asils at all. Maybe Indigo might have put some Spanish blood into them a while back though. That's probably the reason why her tail seems to fan out a bit.
May 3rd, 2004, 04:21 AM
I am from Quezon City, i interested in buying a pair of asils, stag and pullet. Any one here selling Asils?
May 3rd, 2004, 04:28 AM
May 3rd, 2004, 06:35 AM
My asils are a blend from a black rampuri hen and a Golden Brazilian Cock that was imported from California. Some came out red some came out blue and some gold...The blues and the golds came out big and tall and like the brazilian but the reds came out smaller and fought different more towards the rampuri style..they also came with three spurs on each leg.
They fight single stroke as pures but when graded to one quarter to one-eights they have a more wicked shuffle than the American fowl i use to grade them.
What I mean by wicked is that they tend to shuffle with no bill hold and their blows are much more powerful.
May 4th, 2004, 11:33 AM
Here's what the chick looks like at about a week old.
May 4th, 2004, 10:39 PM
you hit it right, but again you have to AGE them like liquor
May 4th, 2004, 11:43 PM
And GoodLuck to your asil Infusion.
May 4th, 2004, 11:55 PM
Congratulations to your Asil Infusion!!!
Awesome looking bird you got Bro.
May 6th, 2004, 04:06 AM
I sure do like my Hamlin Sonatols
May 6th, 2004, 06:41 AM
Thankyou all very much for the kind words. I have been working on this cross for some time now
I know that the asil crosses usually have to be at least two years of age before they are at their best but I have this strain set through selective breeding to battle fiercly at one year old.
Sometimes a person gets lucky with a one in a million brood cock. I turned out to be one of those people.
May all your birds be aces.
May 6th, 2004, 01:55 PM
I think I know the Asils you are talking about.
Just a bit of Trivia for you. Did you know that the Thompson Whites that you crossed them into already has 1/8 Oriental blood ? Someone posted the game strains history on here and you will find that the Hens used to come up with the Thompson Whites came from Australia.
Thompson whites were made up of 1/2 Australian Pit game Hens and the pit game hens are very heavy in Oriental blood (50%or more).
The guy that bred the hens that went into the Thompson whites lives about 1 1/2 hrs north of me.
Another bit of Trivia, your Thompson Whites are related to the "Malaking Pulo". If you read Tahor, SC Floro was mentioned in there as one of the Pioneers of breeding in the Philippines. Simeon and Gus Floro started out their breeding program in the 60's-70's with the same Australian hens that went into the Thompson Whites which they crossed into some of Yancee Harris' of Texas-The outcome is the "Malaking Pulo". (this is also why the term "Texas" by pinoys for American bred fowl as the early American breeds came from "Texas") A favourite of the late Don Amado Araneta who was their biggest buyer at the time. When Gus Migrated to Australia he sold all of them to an Engineer (His name escapes me) in Batangas who released them into an Island - Hence the name "Malaking Pulo".
I better stop before I get off the topic. Till next time.
May 6th, 2004, 04:28 PM
Hi, mates. Thanks for the useful inputs. Just got another pair of Asils. They were from Basilan as per my source. Still young at three months old but already tall and mean looking. With not much info on this pair, would someone here be able to tell how Asils from Basilan perform? Thanks again.
May 6th, 2004, 07:24 PM
What you have is "Parawakan", I had them in the 80's. "Para" meaning "For" and "Uwakan" meaning spar or naked heel fighting.
Although they are part of the "Malayoid Family" of Fowl they have not been primarily bred for "STEEL", be careful. My Parawakan's whilst a good cutter... were NOT HIT GAME, some were PECK GAME and some when cut went looking for the fire exit. Its hard to judge your bird sitting behind this computer but I would look for something that is STEEL Game.
May 6th, 2004, 10:06 PM
The Hamlin Sonatol that I got from Edwin of Ronin Island Gamefarm are "steelgame" they are also body cutters. Edwin claims they are the fastest Asils he has ever owned and he has owned quite a few. I have some 1/2 bloods that I hope to test next year in the sk. They came from McLean and BlackGray/Walton Hatch hens. I think they can compete at 1/2 bloods in the sk and gaff. I think you may need to look at them at 1/4 bloods for LK. Edwin does fight the LK so you might get ahold of him.
May 6th, 2004, 11:08 PM
i love my hamlin sonatals, i also have some bush asils that are black and run a wee bit smaller then the hamlins, but work awesome in the grade.
ya'll need to understand that asils take TIME and if you dont want to spend the time then go on with something else
also remember, the RULE is that usually the battle cocks will fight in the MOTHERS style so breeding to an asil hen will give you the fighting style of HER father, usually.
also, ask yourself EXACTLY what you want from the bird (asil) before you spend any money or time on this
fight with honor always
May 6th, 2004, 11:39 PM
The picture you showed shows an allsume looking bird the mixed is also on the gameness side. One year IMHO is a little young but if you have the gameness even at this age you've got a double ACE 'cause at this age they are probably at their quickest to punch or sidestep.
I don't breed a lot of asil but i do have three different strains and to me they are a plus to most of my crosses. One is sort of the head hunter type, the other two are sitdown artiest, office workers I call them once they zero in they start typing on the opponent's torso.
Once I get to know how to operate this here guizmo a little more and I'd be able to send some attachements. Right now I'm just trying to catch up where I left of in 1989, when I left the states.
In the mean time, the very best of luck on your breeding !!
Feel free to E-mail me at: firstname.lastname@example.org
Adios and Hafa Adai from Saipan,M.P. U.S.A.
BERT :cool: :) ;)
May 7th, 2004, 12:32 AM
if you want body cuttin, steel game, and fast Asils then get in touch with Jerry Hamlin or Edwin Kubijuri. IMHO they have some of the best.
May 7th, 2004, 03:58 AM
How can i contact those guys you mentioned?
May 7th, 2004, 05:05 AM
Was fortunate to obtain a Hamlin asil hen from Edwin, and I am very pleased with her offsprings and their offsprings. They've been fought as young as 7 months. Jerry says they're best when graded down to 1/4. Jerry's asils have been around since his grandpa started breeding and fighting them. They are steel game and bred to fight in gaffs and knives. Jerry and Edwin can be contacted via PM at gamefowl.com.:sprcool:
September 23rd, 2004, 07:18 PM
I am a hobbyist, and as such, I read everything I can have my hands into, on matters relating to gamecock feeding, conditioning & breeding.
So far I compiled these observations concerning asil grades:
BOBBY BOLES - black fowl enthusiast, used asil cocks bred to his black hens. Created his own strain of asil - the Boles Asil
JERRY HAMLIN - used asil cocks bred to his kelso & roundhead hens. Created his own strain of asil - the Hamlin Asil
EDWIN KUBOJIRI - used Ytuarte Black Asil cocks bred to his Mclean Hatch hens
GLENN LIM - used Rampuri Asil hens bred to his Thompson White cocks
These asils (boles, hamlin, ytuarte, & rampuri) are notable because their offsprings can be fought succesfully in slashers, even at 50% asil blood.
This is because, these asils are faster & gamer compared to other strains of asils.
I am very much interested with the Rampuri Asil, you can breed the hens with your texas cock & you can fight their offspring successfully as stags, they fight fast, aggressive & smart.
The rampuri are so aggressive, that at an early of 5 months they will fight to the death other roosters, big or small.
Of course, these are observations, to make the conclusion I must breed them myself.
From those that has bred these asils (boles, hamlin, ytuarte, rampuri), please share your experiences.
It will be a big help. Thanks a million.
September 23rd, 2004, 08:07 PM
Shoot me an email friend. Thanks.
Sabong Auction (http://www.sabong-auction.com)
September 23rd, 2004, 08:57 PM
i fight native philippine asils for the long knife! and I have no problem, I never had any runners.
before the dawn of the bankivoid type american gamefowl, the roosters in the philippines are blends of the native bankivoids(jungle) and of course the malayoid(asil).
if you also look at the way an asil type fowl type stands, they have the more correct posture for the long knife. ie. the breast muscles are not potruding to block the leg muscles from exerting a forward kick.
the asil types really got near extinction when the 'scientifically' bred american bankivoids arrived with the fearless and multiple stroking qualities. naturally most natives including me would rather have that former quality.
but right now, you can see a lot of blends coming back. "it takes non-filipinos of course to show the filipinos the way back home" as the saying goes. as for some secret few they rather show it in the pit!
moving forward or sideways; does anybody fight asils in the short knife?? how effective are they in absorbing the short knives?
September 28th, 2004, 03:47 PM
Tiny Menenes in Batangas, also saw some grey crosses a couple of yrs ago (1/4 asil) I think from McWhite. Never been there but Mitra's farm in Laguna would have. Jim
September 28th, 2004, 05:31 PM
Although I am not that familiar with the different types of Asils,just wanna share my experience about what they call JOLO chicken.We were gifted a pure Jolo cock by a doctor in Iloilo and we mated it to a regular grey.I fought 2 full brothers in a 2 cock derby the other month and they were 3 years old.Our first fight got hit in the left leg during the initial buckle and he was down while the other rooster kept pounding on him for more than 5 minutes until he had the chance to retaliate and he hit the opponent in the head but he died before the other cock expired.Our second fight won impressivley and I was laughing at the guy in front of me because before the roosters were released,this guy shouted "Pauli sa Basilan" meaning go home to basilan.he was laughing at my 1/2 regular grey 1/2 jolo which had a big head but he was quiet when my cock won.Like Edwin Kubojiri always say "Asils are not for everyone.I like them at 1/4- they add smartness,power and they are resistant to diseases.I'll try my 3/4 gavilan hatch 1/4 jolo next year.:D
September 29th, 2004, 02:37 AM
im not to familiar with the asil fowl but arent they a little to slow for the long knife.wouldnt you have to speed them up with some american gamefowl or some other type of knife bird
September 30th, 2004, 01:48 AM
my personal experience with philippine game fowl or what we call 'natives' that is primarily a blend of the malay asil and the jungle bankivoid is that when fought against an american game fowl is that the first two to three buckles is his, meaning while the american type is still standing with his hackles the native can fly over him up to three times. the problem of course is that when the american fowl start to catch up on him and it will be a quick kill, the natives dont last very long in the drag. but multi-time winners are made of such fowls.
as a comment made by one famous cocker in the local cockfighting channel, he says "they are fast and yet are slow". the 'slow' I figure from what he says is that it doesnt have the capacity to throw multiple kicks once inside or simply lacks the reaction time once inside.
but one breed I once saw that seemed invincible is a "cobra" cross, the opponent just pounded away, but it seemed like his body is made of armor.
anyway, I am sure there's a lot of folks here that might have similar stories or experience such as mine.
September 30th, 2004, 07:54 AM
Just want to share my observations with Asils and their crosses...
There are just as many different kinds of Asils or Orientals as there are...western type fowl...
I read somewhere that the best ones were a blend of three basic breeds...
Malay- big peaheads almost no comb and wattles..thick legs and solid body...a lot of skin showing from lack of feathers around legs, soulders, neck..
wild Indian Jungle fowl - small....very game fowl
Sumatra- jet black, game, very smart, superior cutting ability...three spurs on each leg.
Some will have all three combinations...some will have just the two...and some will just be straight Malay type fowl..
The one that are just Malay type are the biggest and slowest...
I try to choose the ones that are heavy in Sumatra grading.. which naturally would have black feathering influence...(brown red, light brown red (pumpkin), blue, black...etc...)
I also look for the ones that have three spurs...again owing to the Sumatra influence...
The reason being...is that...I like the style of fighting that the Sumatra influence has on the oriental fowl...
They are very smart...and have super cutting abilities...They are also quick...not fast....but quick...
For me, an oriental or asil that is fast...is not ideal for grading...because it takes away from what the Asil is suppose to contribute to the grade...which is accuracy and diliberate timing...
The asil must move in a way that the other cock does not expect him to...He must be surprisingly quick...
Example: On release...asil cock stands sideways..western speed cock hesitates for a second...then, thinking that the asil is not paying attention to him...rushes in for the kill...asil jumps just when the other cock is two inches away from connecting..and lands a solid deliberate blow into the armpit of the on rushing fool...
With a good asil strain...one solid blow is all you need... but if you want to add more "action" ...you will have to grade into your western fowl...
Here, there is no "fool-proof recipe"....you cannot just write it on paper...or imagine it in your head....You have to spend some money on feeds, time, and pit-testing..
But once you have arrived at the right...blend...you just have to put them aside and age them...collect the best ones...put them aside...wait till they are two and a half or three years old...
Every strain of Oriental fowl will have a favorite target on which to hit...mine likes to hit the kili-kili...
Other strains like to hit the head or neck...others like to hit the back area...You can observe by sparring...
Breeding Asils...is at worst...frustrating.... but very rewarding when you hit it right...
October 1st, 2004, 02:49 PM
by his son James Vizzard:
There was one occasion back in the thirties when he met nine of the top cocks from the Los Angeles area and won nine straight.
The year before he met thirteen of the top cocks in the Fresno area, and won twelve out of thirteen.
On another occasion, the Miner brothers collected all of their aces from Calif. and Utah, and ended up losing eleven out of twelve to him.
In a 17-cock main against the best Los Angeles combination, he offered to match all seventeen of their cocks at even weight, or to give two ounces and did so, winning the main fourteen to three.
In this main he lost two Roundhead cocks that had been sent to him by a friend in Texas and which had won sensational hacks, but happened to fall in against two half Vizzard-Asils bred by a man in Los Angeles.
He lost a Dom cross of Payt Jordan's but won with a Payton Jordan Brownred and a Payt Jordan Dom-Asil cross.
He won twelve straight with Grey cocks, including one fight in which one of his Grey cocks met the third Vizzard-Asil cross on the other side and whipped him.
These Grey cocks were 3/16 Asil and were bred jointly by Pete McKinley of Nebraska and by my father, out of stock that had originally been sent by my father to Pete McKinley in 1923.
The original matings were 1/4 Asil on each side, mixed with Georgia-Shawl and the old New York Mahoney fowl.
Later more Mahoney fowl was bred in, and they were set as a family with 3/16 Asil 1/8 Shawl and the rest Gull and Mahoney Commodore.
On another occasion my father fought three mains in one day winning a 7-cock main with four straight fights, and winning a main over Santa Barbara parties (3-cock main) three to nothing, and winning another main six to one.
In the last main he won five out of six fights with Greys, and had another win with a half Asil.
For approximately twenty or twenty one years he fought from two to four mains each season, winning each and every one of them.
In his entire career he lost three mains. He generally fought from 200 to 230 fights a year, and according to the actual record in his books won 80% to 85% of his fights.
His main losses came in the last 4 years of his life when Joe Sneed had taken over selection and feeding for him.
In the middle west, Pete McKinley used the Vizzard Grey fowl in fighting in Colo., Wyo., Mont., Neb., Kans., and Iowa.
I think Pete McKinley must have fought between 30 to 40 mains in a 25 year period, losing three and winning the rest.
In 1955 Pete started with 19 cocks, plus two I sent him, and won first money all alone in a derby in Wyo., and the Topeka derby in Kans., and then he and I won six out eight with the Vizzard Grey cocks in our entry at Hot springs.
Pete gave away three of his best cocks as brood cocks, and then with the remnant of his birds, won a derby at Lincoln, Neb., five out of six, and won another derby at Iowa five out of six.
In each of these derbies, he fought a hack, which he won, and also loaned a winning cock to another entry in the Iowa derby.
In the second Topeka derby, that year he won two and lost two, and was out of the money.
I am frank to say that I have not done nearly as well with the same fowl, and a lot of their success was due to the fact that Pete McKinley had wonderful walks, and was a first class chicken man, and my father had a good setup, where he kept cocks, and shifted them from movable coops in alfalfa to big fly pens, and spent 365 days a year taking care of them.
He was a first class selector of fowl, culled ruthlessly, and was a superb conditioner.
It would have been interesting to have seen my father meet Bobby Boles, but they hardly ever met.
The only fight I can remember is a derby fight when Boles was still fighting pure Black fowls without any Asil in them.
We happened to win that fight with a Vizzard Grey cock which took a leg and wing off Boles in the first pitting.
Bobby Boles and my father remind me very much of each other, because each of them can sit and stand by the pit and watch every cock weighed, and have a mental picture of just who weighed what, and what kind of a cock he probably is.
They are the two best chicken men with whom I have been in close contact. Despite the many years that I worked very closely with my father I did not learn too much, and the only lessons I have learned from Boles have been by being consistently whipped by him.
At one time I could say that I had won more fights against him than anyone else in this part of Calif., but that was because I met him more often than anyone else, rather than winning a majority from him.
I did have one good year in 1953 when I met him seven times and whipped him seven times, as I have the big powerful Vizzard Grey cocks fresh off walks that Pete McKinley was sending me.
After that I never done very well with him. An illustration was one day he won 13 out of 15 stag fights. I met him 5 times and won 2, lost 3. The others I lost 10 straight to him.
The thing my father particularly stressed was gameness in his fowl, and it would have been a humiliation to him to have shown bad or cold fowl. On one occasion in a main we had to meet one of our own birds that our handler had secretly sold to some other parties.
A party from the east who was always harping about gameness got up and said, "Gentlemen, these are the first two real game cocks I have sen fight in Calif."
This was exaggerated, but the cocks did break each other all to pieces, and finally one won with a feeble kick, and both ended up dead.
Both were ace cocks who had won several fights each before they met in this main.
My father did not believe in testing cocks beyond billing them in the cockhouse the second and third day, and very occasionally he would let them strike in the cockhouse.
However, his cocks were in perfect flesh and perfect condition, when then went to the pit, and if any stag or cock showed any bad signs, he went to the chopping block.
I don't recall him showing any runners of his own breeding, but I know his selection had a lot ot do with that.
When we were fighitng Asa's sons from the Grey hens Dad used them and other fowl in 8 derbies in one season during the late thirties.
These were 6-cock derbies and in 7 of them he took 2 entries and ended up 7 times with all first and second money.
On one of these occassions when he took two entries Jack Sullivan was down from Reno. My dad won $400 on a Vizzard Grey son of Asa's and offered it to Dad for the cock.
Dad refused and Jack came to me to find out how much more he could offer to get the cock.
I told him to forget it because he was dealing with a pig-headed Irishman who would refuse $4,000 just as quickly after he had refused the $400 before spectators because dad would feel that he had put a price on himself and become a chicken peddler.
During his 20 good years my father not only used his Vizzard Greys, but also Payt Jordan Brownreds which were a line bred family of Wingate crossed on Asil-Shawl, Dr. Watkins Asil-Sullivan Dom crosses, and many crosses of his Vizzard Grey back on Asil-Shawl and Asil-Dom.
McKinley used nothing but pure Vizzard Greys except for a few Grey-R.H. crosses back in the 20s and a very few Grey-Dom crosses in the 30s.
In re Col. Hempel's remarks on Asils. My first hand observation of Asil crosses and blends is doubtless greater than any person now alive as I knew Dad Gleezen, Anthony Green, Fred Raymond, Jules Snider, Gus Kloes and others thru their contact with others and have seen thousands of Oriental grades fought.
In principle I must agree with the Colonel. He said that there were few game orientals and many more cold ones.
The game Oriental stayed in some English families and added toughness, etc. and din't detract from gameness.
The bad Oriental blood ruined many families. Now they don't try to inbreed many crosses and marginal Oriental crossed on game fowl can produce deadly battle cocks that are pretty close to "pit game" if out of good American hens.
I have lost Dad's old Asils which were the Macoy Asils or "Jungle Fowls" as named by Macoy.
He selected down to one cock and two hens of this family and discarded many others of the Macoys.
They can be linebred so far as gameness and structure is concerned.
The Vizzard Greys were started in 1923 and most people rate them as gamer than most fowl and they are getting smaller and finer with breeding.
The Grim Jungle-Shawls were out of an Asil I raised as a little boy and they did well for Fullerton in Florida and elsewhere.
The Payt Jordan Brownreds were Grim Jungle-Shawl and Wingate and were beautiful and deep game cocks for over 20 years of line breeding.
The Watsuch Reds are supposedly Grim-Jungle Shawls which have been good and game for many years.
Fullerton's Pineys carried Anthony Green Jap.
Fred Raymond's Asil crosses were from my father's Black hen family and that went into the Taylor Greys.
When I was a boy there were relatively few families of Orientals and they averaged out pretty well on gameness.
The Graves Asils were game.
The first Wheeler Asils were a Graves Aseel and Vizzard Asil cross and were game and the Green Japs, Nicholsen Japs and Glass Tuzo Japs were game.
This remark is based on what I saw of them when crossed on game American families.
I have seen many bad Oriental crosses resulting from crossing on cold American fowl.
Today there are many more families of Orientals available with increased travel, etc., but I hesitate to start them with them again, as so many I have seen are cold blooded.
Without reflection on anyone now breeding Orientals I cannot personally point to any family that I could guarantee to be game.
Of course there are many I don't see as Oriental grades are not concentrated on the Pacific coast as they once were.
Boles probably has game Asils and no one can get them.
He experiments a lot with various Orientals and I have seen him show quitters.
I have also seen him outgame many fowl in money fights.
October 2nd, 2004, 09:21 AM
I have an Asil too, Weighing 2.4Kgs, blue feathered. From your experience, where does he belong from what you had wrote above about the three-blend breeds...
What is the weight of an asil in order he belong to small ones, or to large ones :rolleyes:
Thanks in advance...
October 2nd, 2004, 09:16 PM
Im sorry but I would not be able to tell you...There are so many variations of Asils...Just make sure you test him for fighting style, endurance , gameness, and cutting...before you start to breed him.
lots of luck,
October 2nd, 2004, 09:45 PM
My experience with Asils was in 1994 when I bought a pair of North Indian Asil from Mr. Ike Merchant. These were really game but a little slow for the knife but crossed with a good red or a brown red makes it just perfect for the long knife. Unfortunately I wasn't able to see them fought since I left the US a year later, my friends fought, won some with them and kept them.
Another friend bought some from Patt Patterson crossed them with his Cox fowls and won some both in the short and long knife. These were power cocks, fast and furious.
October 3rd, 2004, 06:19 PM
I remember in band camp. :lol: Seriously, I remember in 2000 I went with a good friend Mang Romy to a 4 cock track and field derby in LA county..Why track and field derby? coz you have to be a good runner when hell broke loose :lol: I fielded one of Joe Goode reds against an Asil grade Red cock of a guy they call Demo.. I was told this old guy likes to play around breeding orientals. People called 10-8 and laughed at Mr. Demo's bird. My Red is a good salto cock and gives a lot of legs on the ground. 1st pitting my red flew high, towering above the asil grade, he just look at my fowl and waited for it to land...gave my cock one good hit, his accurate blow got my Red's knife leg broke, it then finished my red with a few hard shuffle...it was game over after that..Mr. Demo's 2nd show was against Jorge T. again the same odds, again the same type of roosters and again the same way the Asil grade killed Jorge T.'s nice looking roundhead. Demo's third show was killed by a Mexican's hatch fowl and I can't remember his 4th fight..
I really have some respect with some good Asil grades..maybe this experience was similar to Bobby Boles' opponents back then..people laughing at his funny looking fowls, odds against him..but he had his share of domination of the cocking world during his time.
Just want to share some good experiences to you Asil fans...
October 18th, 2004, 12:53 AM
Here are some photos of Asil and Asil cross.
August 21st, 2005, 05:00 AM
Is it ok to breed an asil grade cock like if what you have is only a 1/2 Asil 1/2 Brownred?Any inputs from asil breeders?Thanks
August 21st, 2005, 05:36 AM
Although I have some Jumper Asil, I'm Not a Asil Breeder... But it seems Most that do use a Graded Cock as you mention over American hens to get there 1/4 Grade which seems to work best for them. ~Ace~
August 21st, 2005, 05:43 AM
If you have the Jumper Asils, you have the Les Melvill Asils. That is what they were when Mac White gave them to the Jumpers.
Very good Asils.
And I agree, breed the Asil in on the cock side.
August 21st, 2005, 05:53 AM
These were a gift to me from "Longscore's" Dad, and a gift to him from Jumper. I have never done anything with it, but there interesting to look at. ~Ace~
August 21st, 2005, 07:19 AM
if you got the graded asil at 1/2 you actually save
one breeding season than getting a pure one.
if you're concern is if it is alright for the cross of
asil and brownred? it now depends on the strain
of asil you got, not all asils are steel game.
but the best thing is to test breed and see if it nicks.
August 21st, 2005, 07:39 AM
Thanks for the inputs friends,been reading some posts on asil breeding on the other site too.I am planning to try that asil grade to roundhead hens.By the way, have you seen the wsd 2005 video?There was this asil cross that fought well--he fakes his opponent to come in and when the opponent does,he backs out but leaves punches.
August 21st, 2005, 07:55 AM
points to consider in breeding asils......from asilmania book
1.most asils are groundfighters.........breeding speed fowls with them............doesn`t bring always the right combination............because most speed fowl are...........high flyers...........the result will be offpsrings ..........that don`t know whether to break high or stay on the ground:lol:
2.most asils are smart cutting fowl.............breeding too much speed in them ...............take out the smart and cutting accuracy.
but like they say............fardown brownreds.........or buck haw brownreds............nicks with asil...........like hotdog and mustard:lol:
August 23rd, 2005, 09:31 PM
we acquired our lone rampuri asil stag from wilton thibodeaux
of louisiana usa in early 2000 and breed him to our western
fowls. in two years time, one day i woke up and realized that
more than half of our flocks rearing our range are asil graded!
it gave hybrid vigor and excellent survival ratio compared to
straight bred western fowls. slashing ability improve a lot.
i loaned one 1/2 rampuri asil 1/2 lacy roundhead to a friend
and in two year time he also realized that almost half of his
flocks are already asil graded :lol:
i believe future long knife fowls will be of asil grade with the
right combination of western fowls.
August 23rd, 2005, 09:42 PM
another good old thread for asil lover :)
August 24th, 2005, 11:57 AM
I have the rampuri asils and every year I say i am going to breed them down to 1/4 but we never do cause they are sooo good at half...that grey in the pic is a frost/asil half and half...and he went on to win in araneta..i will put a link to the video
August 24th, 2005, 12:24 PM
wow.....ka tonio.........he`s really got awesome vertical leaping.......and cutting ability.......very intelligent fighter
he`s only a medium breaker.........but he has great timing........going up vertically.........whenever the opponent comes in to grab him........
i analyzed........the fight.........frame by frame..........and he really extend those feet at front to score .........while holding his body vertical in the air.........
that`s the trade mark of good asil........knows when to come in for a shot and knows when to get out ..........to avoid getting hit or tagged by the opponent.
carl saia........once told a story..........on how to know if you have authentic asils........
put two asils separately on the ground...........with fence between them..........and they would not initiate a pen fight........that`s how intelligent they are.........do the same to our american birds.........fence between them.........and in a minute......we`ll have broken legs in one of them.......as they will easily initiate a fence fight..........means nothing in the world can stop them..........as long as they see each other.
but for the two asils........between a fence.......open a door.........where they could really meet.......and they will start to ramble.........that is a point to ponder........as told by carl saia.
August 24th, 2005, 12:40 PM
bobby boles was unbeatable for decades.........he was the most envied.........and feared ...........and setting two entries and winning them all.........was a norm for him........cockers had to hide their derbies from him.......because when he would know from it and partcipate.........cockers have to pack up their things and leave.......no way to beat boles in those decades.......
cockers tried the longheel........believing boles fowl would not win anymore........but their plan backfired.........beacuse boles fowl could win.......also in longheel...........in one to two pittings.
they say the darker the fowl .........that bobby boles fought........the bettter........but the winningest line ..........16 x winner.........that boles ever produced........was a spanish/asil cock.
many still believe...until today.....that bole`s fowl was unbeatable at that time...........but........there was this backyard breeder from california.........that fought........asil/chet(out of chet cock over asil hens) battlecross
against boles fowl..........and he won...........and his name was.....alvin roca.........of fresno california.
August 24th, 2005, 12:57 PM
yes...i agree with Tbucks and Edward Catahay...
Jerry H and Edwin K got awesome Asil and can be contacted true gamefowl.com....
my friend nice to see u posting here...
August 24th, 2005, 12:58 PM
thats true..you can even put a pure asil in front of a mirror and he wont do anything...try doing that with american birds and you could end up with seven years bad luck...hehehe
here is a another video of an asil grade in araneta..he is a two time winner leiper/rampuri half-half
PS. notice the head shot at the end of the fight
August 24th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Ang galing nong style ng grey Tonio,I would love to see the rampuri/wingates video.
August 24th, 2005, 01:09 PM
Thanks,HAS..I emailed it to you a couple of days ago...did you get it?
guess i will upload it here nalang
Oh and by the way thanks for emailing me the pics buhawi
August 24th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Here is a rampuri/wingate in my championship fight of a pasay 4stag last year...pa-champion na dehado pa sa tawagan
August 24th, 2005, 02:24 PM
great cutting asil grade.......he could eject vertically.... high..... to top his opponent
August 24th, 2005, 02:42 PM
that asil/frost grey is one superb cutting gowl... he connected in his first three buckles and more importantly they were fatal shots. That fighting style is the very definition of the angat sarado style and when you have fowls with those type of skills, you're going to win a lot of fights and mostly clean.
that second video where you showed a brownred/asil cross is excellent as well. Both of your fowls show tremendous cutting ability and leg extension. What I like about them as well is like what buhawi stated about their vertical leaping ability... they don't rush to the opponent but they wait for their opponent to rush at them and they just make the counter attack.. Probably what I like best about them is that they have a great sense of timing... Excellent fowls tonio... they really show in the pit! Great Job! :)
August 24th, 2005, 07:15 PM
looking on rampuri asil graded fowls you won't bet, you won't buy
nor breed! but once you witness its figting style the fever stays! :lol:
August 24th, 2005, 10:05 PM
yup! 100% agree! no doubt the key is finding the right one.
August 25th, 2005, 03:20 AM
i am still thinking of what would be the best mate for him:D
he hits good....in his current weight of 2.33kg.......has enough aggressiveness and speed........but in the maneuvering department............he needs a little ...........tune up....a lil late in turning.....very dangerous in longknife:lol:
juan...........your 7/8 rampuri asil-1/8 roundhead ..........might be the missing link:lol:
or shall i throw him........a richard kelly mug hen:lol:
whewwwwwwww...........asil breeding...........makes me dizzy,hehe.
August 25th, 2005, 06:36 AM
Surely there must be more asil breeders out there. Name a few and specify why you all think they should be recognized. The best I have ever seen were the grades that J. Wallace fought at Sunset. They were sensational!!! Smart, Swift, and Deadly cutters. They were fought in the short knife and you guessed it NONE FOR SALE. :( Sorry boys the "old man" won't let you even hold one.:rbounce:
August 25th, 2005, 09:23 AM
Gatorcreek Asils are one of the best.
August 25th, 2005, 09:27 AM
Do you know what kind of asils do wallace farm use and what do they grade them to? They have been showing consistently well at Sunset.
August 25th, 2005, 11:32 AM
Yes, tell us about Wallace please.
I have heard about Danny Gibson for years now. Has anyone ever seen him show his fowl please? I have sort of followed his exploits (only on the internet) since he breeds those asils of his and also a healthy amount of Spanish fowl are in his breeding program too.
Your inputs are appreciated here.
August 25th, 2005, 11:52 AM
:D I agree with Sir Edward C.
I also breed Hamlin Asil. they are fast, shuffle and strong. they can be fought as young as 8 mo. and get better as they grow older . I even got 1/4 grade that hit with non-stop shuffle even his back on the floor. I'm very happy I got them.
August 25th, 2005, 12:04 PM
Dynamite friend.......if an Asil cock will not fight sitting on his ass or on his back for me ends up in the pot of puchero!
That is one of my favorite traits of the asils and I am sure you agree friend.
August 25th, 2005, 01:25 PM
wingate/asil at araneta
August 25th, 2005, 01:48 PM
Buhawi, I don't profess to know it all because breeding winning aces is an artform unto itstelf. That being said, many of the better asil grades that I have personally seen have been crossed with a Spanish hen. Well, that may be because I used to hang out with a lot of Hispanos in the USA and I lived in Spain......so duh. BUT, I have noticed that many old time country type American breeders have injected some type of Spanish blood into their asils too. When I say "Spanish", I am using the American term for any fowl coming from a Spanish speaking country, not necessarily from Spain. I guess the speed and agility is what they are seeking in the mating?
I have a pure Jerezano over my Clem Jap hen now........at first I didn't know what to do with her, but I will let you know how they turn out in a year or so if I remember.
Buhawi, have you ever seen any pure Spanish Canarios? (From the Canary Islands) Just curious.....if you ever have the chance to pick one up at a reasonable price you may like what you see and it may fit into your breeding program.
That is a wonderful looking cock that you picked up off of Mr. Clem and I also noticed the "Siete"sickle tail feathers!!!!
P.S. There is a "possum"sweater on the sabong-auction site that has this same trait.....I left my glasses at work and I really can't tell man, but it looks like it to me...and I also follow your "siete"theory.
August 25th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Spin a win El Español...
You will never lost...great taste!!! i agree...
August 26th, 2005, 06:00 AM
Jerry told me that a friend was getting out due to personal reasons and he offered them to him for free. He told Jerry that they were some of the best to be had. Jerry crossed a Asil cock over his family of Hatch and that is what he has been showing. Amazing ain't it? 1/2 and 1/2 is all that was needed to bring home all the beans! :hombre:
August 26th, 2005, 06:28 AM
I have the same asils that Jerry Wallace has. Jackie Rogers first fought the 1/2 Asil 1/2 Brownreds at Sunset winning 6-1 in the short knife. Jerry liked them so well, that he asked Jackie if he could get one. Jackie Called George O'Brien and got a pure asil cock that is the brother to mine. That is how Jerry got his start in asils. George O'brien and Ben Best went to a fellow in Louisiana that was fighting at sunset and gave 2500-3000 a pair for the asils. I believe that Jackie told my they came for a Frockmeyer. George and Ben called the fowl back to Viriginia and breed them to produce short heel fowl. After a while, George gave the fowl to Ben and Ben passed the fowl to Richard Ray and Cecil. They have been breeding them for George for the last few years. After Jerry won a couple of debries at Sunset, he asked for more of the asils, because he didn't have a hen. George called Cecil and picked up the old pair and seen them to Jerry. Since then, Jerry has got a couple more hens and has done real well with them crossed on his Hatch. This is the history behind the asils that Jerry has been fighting. I meet Cecil and Richard at a pit in Viriginia fighting some of my asil grades and we became good friends. Since then, Cecil and Richard have paid me a visit and bought me a couple and hen that is out of the old part that Jerry has and they are good asils for the short knife. I also obtained some asil-brownreds from Jackie rogers and have a few of the old orginial hens for sale if someone is interested. I fought a show of 1/2 Roundhead 1/4 Asil 1/4 Brownreds in the gaff at 14 months against cocks winning 3-1-1, excellent cutting fowl. Well, enough said this is the story behind the wallace asils.
Darryl Yates (John 3:16)
2070 county road 92
Rainsville, Alabama 35986
August 26th, 2005, 08:36 AM
Thanks Darryl... for the info about J. Wallas Asils...
i got to hurry to my relative...he got this bamablack...
August 27th, 2005, 12:19 PM
Thanks, would you also happen to know kind of asils it is?
August 29th, 2005, 02:12 PM
interesting site anymore contribution fron your experience
or anything you have heared/discuss with someone :)
i tried to make new seed fowls from my rampuri asil brood
cock by grading them to 7/8 rampuri asil 1/8 western fowls
this will be my new brood materials to be infuse to my other
western fowls and locally purchased bloodlines. will try this
the 1/8 minority blood in there will play a role in making a
new cross which will result to 3 way cross.
October 26th, 2005, 11:48 AM
I hear that the pakistan asil and sweaters make some of the deadlist bread but i need to hear it from more than one person to belive it.
October 26th, 2005, 05:19 PM
I've tried crossing my Asil (J Hamlin) to sweater and they blend well. I like their performance. The speed and aggressivenes of sweater is needed quality for asil grading.:D Brain, cutting and power from the asil.
October 26th, 2005, 08:44 PM
if you're after the performance- asil grades are the best
not all asil strain though :D
if you're after the beauty of your fowls just forget it :D
October 27th, 2005, 02:32 AM
just ask the original breeder of roundhead...or get some info from the geniuned roundhead lovers in the US.....i heared that the roundhead has a very very little aseel blood.
October 27th, 2005, 06:13 AM
CHECK OUT EAST TIMOR COCK FIGHTING PIX...HEHEHE
October 31st, 2005, 10:13 AM
October 31st, 2005, 10:39 AM
just new to asil breeding. I was tols by don to grade an asil to lesen the japs before crossing with american fowl. if you use asil, or just japs, you will have problems later
October 31st, 2005, 10:54 AM
you`ve got to start with the right material........and most of all......steelgame
October 31st, 2005, 11:21 AM
yes, you are correct sir buhawi
October 31st, 2005, 11:40 AM
not all asils or orientals are good for long knife infusions.
how to look for them is like doing a treasure hunting. go
for those known strain already tested by most breeders
in long knife.
don't go for those asils and orientals actively being fought
in naked heels. usually these are the huge sized fowls,
head pecking and slow hitting :D
October 31st, 2005, 11:43 AM
yup! i forgot hey are slow hitting but
can break your arm when hit solidly
October 31st, 2005, 07:01 PM
:D I used J Hamlin they are fast asil and muliple stroker. They can be fought at 1/2 grade . The broodcock I got can already be used in L/K fight . He move like Tonio's Rampuri in the video. And I'm thinking of blending some Rampuri's blood.
November 1st, 2005, 04:47 AM
you should try the ghetto_grappler asils for slasher too much brains hard to catch:lol:
November 2nd, 2005, 09:09 AM
Try to make 1/8 asil and 7/8 other
November 2nd, 2005, 10:33 PM
yes as what mr. b boles did
November 4th, 2005, 06:32 PM
Is Asil the best Cross breed?
it one of the best cross :lol: you only have to find the
right strain of asil though cause not all can nick for long
find those steel game asils. don't go for the huge strain
used for naked heel competitions.
November 13th, 2005, 09:06 AM
that's right it's a toss of a dice. get one that is already tested
in a knife you want to show and the odd of possibility of getting
what you want will be on your side :)
November 13th, 2005, 09:10 AM
November 27th, 2005, 07:28 AM
Who has fought asil in the last 10 years and win. Not just one pit.
November 27th, 2005, 11:15 AM
i would lyuk to hear bout fighting asils.. but as wat i seen in wsc05 it seem lyk they are left behind of the sweater fowls
November 27th, 2005, 11:33 AM
yes...with the growing number of asil fanatics, it would be nice to know how the asil grades performed especially in the big time lk competition. i heard bossing tonio is doing well with his frost grey/rampuri crosses. how about the rest?
November 27th, 2005, 12:40 PM
asil grade...yes...but asil has no chance in this day and age of longknife competition...
November 27th, 2005, 03:14 PM
:D I'm using Jerry Hamlin Asil, They I already tested my 1/2 and 1/4 grades and they are winning in L/K and I don't like to grade them further. Now I'm line breeding him to increase asil blood.
Kogmohon don't say Pure asil won't win in the long knife. Not all asil are slow. my asil broodcock are fast enough to kill any gamefowl and I'm planning to fight him next year after breeding him.
November 27th, 2005, 04:06 PM
it is good to know that your 1/2 asil crosses are doing well. i am soon planning to jump into the asil bandwagon as well. :)
November 27th, 2005, 07:18 PM
asil crosses are awesome............:lol:
November 27th, 2005, 09:00 PM
what about the gaff and short knife.
November 27th, 2005, 09:27 PM
What about Bob Howard ? Didn't he win the WSD with asil grades two times ? I know he went 10 straight at sunset with them .
Also Jerry Wallace has been doing good with his asil/brownred crosses in the sk at sunset and in mexico from what i've heard .
November 27th, 2005, 11:05 PM
I think in the near future, you will see more & more Asils & Jap croses in the major derbys & winning.
There will be a few of each in the 2006 Candelaria :) .
November 27th, 2005, 11:47 PM
lets keep in touch...i would like to test your speedy asil against my american fowl and your asils against mine. this is my first season breeding asil grades and pure asils. i have rampuri, japs,
boles and sonatal.
November 28th, 2005, 12:40 AM
i think only ray alexander has the consistent asil grades that are fighting in the world slasher...why is it nobody use his grades for fighting in the long knife? is his asil grades not for sale?
November 28th, 2005, 03:40 AM
What about Les Melvell asil do they still win good. And the Mr. Lilly out of Canada that Pete Willobey feed for has any body seen them go.
November 28th, 2005, 03:45 AM
What about Charley Claypools. Also Johony Beards asil Hugh Normans rh fight. I seen these go in Ky. not bad
November 28th, 2005, 03:46 AM
Yes, his Asils are winning a high % every where they go.
I shipped a few Melvill Asil grades to be shown in the Candalaria, along with some Jap grades so we will see in a little while.
The Asil blood used by Ray Alexander & Les's Asils, if the truth be known, I am told are one & the same.
November 28th, 2005, 03:55 AM
Rays were the stolen cock from boles.
November 28th, 2005, 04:00 AM
That is what I was told about them as well. Les does have the true Boles Asils.
You would not catch me using stolen blood. Would not say much for me, would it?
November 28th, 2005, 04:10 AM
Colt i know you got yours from Les. I didnt mean yours were stolen.
November 28th, 2005, 04:22 AM
Yes, I know.
I just don't see how a guy could be proud of him self, showing STOLEN bloodlines like Alexander did, that is all.
November 28th, 2005, 05:07 AM
I know the man and he would not steal anything, period, ever.
If he has Boles Asil then it was given to him by Boles out of respect for one of the best and Ledgendary breeders of all time, Mr. Ray Alexander.
Also a pretty good chicken peddler, LOL
November 28th, 2005, 05:59 AM
They were not given to him by Bobby.
They were stolen & Ray ended up with them & that is all I will say about this.
November 28th, 2005, 06:42 AM
My asils have been doing really well. I have won with them all over (Araneta,Makati,Pasay,Roligon,San Juan). I fought this one asil twice in this year bakbakan and he won both times.
I did not know about Rays Asils being stolen...interesting
November 30th, 2005, 01:40 PM
with your asil and jap grades in Candelaria and possibly WSC.
Myself is hoping to produce excellent asil and jap grades this season.Very interesting indeed.
Goodluck to all of us Oriental enthusiasts....
December 1st, 2005, 08:01 AM
:) Mr Runner can you tell me more about the Mr Lilly of canada?
and his chickens?:hippie: .
December 1st, 2005, 09:32 AM
Asil grade from the recent babakan 9stag (asil-winagte)
December 4th, 2005, 12:24 PM
i jst thinkin breeding native or "tagalog" cocks and cross to any fast game phase rooster.. i still belive n oour own ones... tnx a lot
December 5th, 2005, 09:38 AM
HMMMMMMNNNNN. I didn' tknow that Ray's are stolen ones.I hope not, coz I got mine from him. It's a 5/8 - 3/8 Chocolate gray asil from Ray. Actually I got mine from my freind Lyndon whot got his direct from Ray.
2 of the stags crossed over lacy roundhead won already in a 3-cock derby. Made me soooo proud coz they are about ten month old against cocks. Plus they are the healthiest stag on the range.
December 5th, 2005, 02:41 PM
I know how you feel. Last week we fought our 15 month old jumper kelso cross to a 1/4 hatch 1/8 asil and he won with only a small cut on his right leg. I'm proud of him because his opponent was a white leg claret, 1 pound heavier and slightly taller. My partner said I was crazy to fight that bird but I felt confident that he was going to win. He throws a lot of punches and has good timing. We'll be fighting his two brothers next month in a derby. We'll keep you posted.
December 11th, 2005, 05:51 AM
you are very smart asil man not all strains are good not all nick with certian american lines when someone has asil true asil has done the work in the breed pen and has crossed and proven its priceless my rampuris were 6 pounds selective bredding not inbreding i have them 5 pounds smart power and game in steel i use fastest ones now my little rampuris will through a shuffle amd gradedwith my kelso or barnett sweater even at half asil very smart agile fowl fight like lacy rh but with lot of power and dont die easy as a pure lacy long live true asils and the magnificent smart killing cocks they produce one more my asil dont nick with any type greys so far just a observation and i triedd a lot of good families yfis and asil lover
December 11th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Right cockmates, there should be an asil blood on the battlecocks nowadays.
December 11th, 2005, 11:49 PM
It is up there with the best & like what has been said, if you get the right nick, then it can be labled as the best cross.
Crossing Asils is like making the best cake that you have ever eat, with no directions, but when you get it just right, very good.
Some are not steel game. Some are just not good at all & some have to be graded just right befor they can win. Some will grade with one type & be good but not another.
So, to lable them the best cross, I would not go that far but when you get them right, you will be as hard to beat as any.
December 12th, 2005, 12:26 AM
well let me see fellow cockers, i think that if you have the boles then it will be cross to other cocks. then i think it is the best!
December 13th, 2005, 02:46 PM
Can we use our native chicken (Tagalog) as an alternative to an Aseel? They are also good in long knife. Before we have a pure Tagalog being bought in the market by my grandfather and it win 13 times.
December 13th, 2005, 04:17 PM
the best cross of asil,,,,...I think horse kelso blood.
and dragon albany from kely kely green:rbounce:
December 13th, 2005, 09:26 PM
kelly green:( :(
December 14th, 2005, 10:03 AM
I SEE YOU RE FROM TIAWAN. MY SON IS GOING THERE THIS WEEKEND TO MARRY HIS GIRFRIEND OF SEVERAL YEARS.. SMALL WORLD....
THE BEST ASIL GRADE FOWL I EVER SAW WERE CROSSED ON HATCH. HIGH WINNING PERCENTAGE FOR ONE AND ONLY ONE YEAR. THE BREEDER WAS A COMPLETE NOVICE AND HAD NO IDEA WHAT HE WAS DOING. BUT THAT ONE CROSS WAS A HELL OF A NICK AND, I N SPITE OF THE BREEDER OWNER, THEY DID QUITE WELL. THEY COULDNT LOSE DESPITE HIS DOING EVERYTHING WRONG!! THIS WAS IN THE 1960 S IN ARKANSAS USA. HAPPY COCKING
December 15th, 2005, 01:57 AM
December 15th, 2005, 07:01 PM
Asil is the ugliest fowl I ever did see. Forget about crossing your beautifull birds against this monster. If you're after power why not go for kelsos and hatch. They got as much power or even better than these birds whose looks only a mother could love.
We're defeating the purpose of crossing. Crossing is to improve not to turn them into monsters. The point is why turn you're fowl into an ugly monster when you can have one that's beautiful.
December 15th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Go ahead and breed for beauty, we will breed for winners.
December 15th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Are you breeding for SHOWLINE or FIGHTINGLINE???? hehehe
December 15th, 2005, 11:25 PM
Well put. I have seen some ugly birds that turn them beautiful birds into ugly dead ones, :)
December 15th, 2005, 11:28 PM
i like ugly chicken with good fighting skills.they are underdogs most of the time.
December 15th, 2005, 11:33 PM
This thread asks if asil is crosses well with other bloodlines... It doesn't matter if the chicken is pretty or not as long it has a very high winning percentage. you agree fellow cockers?
December 15th, 2005, 11:50 PM
I like asils/shamos for their brain,not their looks.I like d challenge of breeding and finding the right nick.It may be disappointing the first few tries but when the right nick comes.You won't regret the sweats and years you have spent with these type of birds.I believe there's no short cut in terms of breeding.Having the right materials and means and some advice from our breeder friends here will be an advantage.We breed these birds for their performance and not for their looks.Given the chance to have a beautiful bird and an ugly one with the performance trait or fighting style per my taste.I'll pick them both,anytime.
They maybe ugly but don't underestimate them.:hippie:
December 16th, 2005, 01:54 AM
Well said. Asils do take hard work & determination but when you get it right, you will be a very hard one to whip.
December 16th, 2005, 10:36 AM
we need to explore more while grading asil
patience and hard work
December 16th, 2005, 10:41 AM
asil grade vs sweater type
December 16th, 2005, 02:12 PM
I don't think you got my point. What I was trying to say is If you can have a winner and beautiful as well why go for an ugly winner.
December 16th, 2005, 03:58 PM
ol slickcharlie is pretty harsh with his oppinions, but you know what they say about oppinions they're like *******s, some are bigger and smellier than others. i'll stick by my asils till they throw dirt in my face. thats just me, i don't care about looks if it performs.:mad:
December 16th, 2005, 04:32 PM
Well, you're surely intitled to your own opinion just like me. Doen't need to throw in those nasty words but this is a free country. Iif you want to go with your Asils so be it and good luck. Just want to show to the world that cockfighting is beautiful and Asils looks doesn't help.
December 16th, 2005, 04:50 PM
why do you think Ray Alexander fight asil grades? Why do you think Johnny Jumper sell his asils for a huge amount? Does any of your beautyful fowls ever surpass Bobby Boles record of over 120 straight wins in gaff. Mr Mitra won back to back, breeders cup. Tonio wins
Just like your doms, you just don't get the good ones. If it does not work out for you, it does not mean it will not work out for everybody.
December 16th, 2005, 06:09 PM
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder!
December 16th, 2005, 07:06 PM
All I'm saying is if you can get the same result breeding beautifull fowls why go for ugly. Showing these freaks to the outside world does not help the image of our sport. I don't care if booby boles got 1000 wins with this monster but if he had the chance of getting the same wins with beautifull fowls I think he'll grab that chance. I don't know the reasons why your so obsessed with ugly birds and I don't really want to know why. To each his own. It wasn't my intentions to agitate people here, please take no offense. Cheers.
December 16th, 2005, 08:13 PM
what about Johnny Jumper, Ray Alexander, Nene and even Paeng Araneta, they have beautiful birds that get their desired results? Now, why would they be breeding asils now?
December 16th, 2005, 11:51 PM
my vision is 20/20 both eyes.That asil looking bird is beautiful.
December 17th, 2005, 12:11 AM
Let me share my opinion why some breed and raise the ugly orientals. Some people including me like to be underdogs. There is somekind of a mistique in these orientals. They will always be second guessed. The ugly outside apearance of these birds says they are no good. And this is where the fun begins. Especially in hackfights, the oriental will always gain advantage because of the second guessing of the owners of the beautiful gamefowls.
If you are fighting in the Philippines, you will gain a lot of advantages in all aspect of your fight ( bet wise and match wise) with the orientals. As I have said because of second guessing you will be bigger, taller and heavier in your match. You will be the 'dehado. Your bet money will go along ways coz your betting with odds. It is very easy to bet coz you will just have to 'sahod', unlike if you are the favorite which you have to use a 'kristo'. Probably my 8,000 pesos will win 10,000 and the beautiful fowls bet of 8,000 will win 6,000 pesos (isn't this fun?).
And the most important, it is fun. If you win against a very beautiful fowl with your orientals you will hear the crowds roar in happiness (hule! they will shout, stamping their feet in happiness). And that is whiy I love to breed and raise this ugly orientals.:)
December 17th, 2005, 01:10 AM
I will just say this.
You can not get the same with beautiful, Western fowl.
Not as smart & can't cut with them either.
This is why people mess with them ugly birds. You ad that cut, smarts & stamina to those beautiful birds to improve their win %.
December 17th, 2005, 08:11 AM
December 17th, 2005, 03:52 PM
as an in-house gaffer, i gaff a lot of cocks of unknown caliber...but there is no mistaking an asil..especially a pure Asil that sports a beard..hehehe
here is one story of winning with a pure Asil in the LK
of course the betting odds were as expected, totally in favor for the bankiva opponent.
the owner of the asil was confident his Asil will win. as the one gaffing the Asil, my heart was with him...and I like underdogs.
as I gaff, I kept talking to the Asil to imbed the knife as deep as possible and show these rabid sabungeros that even pure Asils can win in the LK...i dont know if he understood me. maybe i was psyching the cock, the owner, and myself. almost everybody expected the Asil to loose.
typical asil, he played the waiting game. then he walked toward his opponent...ngeeeeeee. the other was trying to fake a move..pecking on the ground..looking up...pecks on the ground again. the Asil timed his moved well. the moment the other cock pecked on the ground...the Asil attacked.
oh my, the other cock wasnt dumb at all. it made a vertical break. but the Asil wasnt dumb too. he leaped too...hehehe. he leapt amigos...leapt...hehehehe
they clashed chest to chest. WHAM ! the other cock spiraled down. talk about rock solid body...nyahahahahaha
Asils are agile during CQB (close quarter combat)...the other cock was still reeling from the clash when the Asil threw the patented haymaker....but he threw the right leg...tsk..tsk...BRAKKKK !!! a neck hit...the other cock was stunned and was circling dazed...
had it not been an Asil...it could have ended quicky...but the asil was just looking down at his dazed opponent. when the other cock turned his back. the Asil clobbered him from behind. this time the knife leg connected. BOOOM ! ugggggggggh! 3\" plus knife imbedded in the back...no chicken will survive that...
happy owner. happy gaffer. and mostly losing public.
lesson: every cock will have his day ...
go go Asils !!! its clobbering time....
December 17th, 2005, 04:29 PM
nice story, sugbo...:)
December 19th, 2005, 10:53 AM
ive seen 5 fights of my friends asil crosses this year...all of them won...3 won in 1 fly....best cutting roosters ive seen so far...
December 19th, 2005, 11:11 AM
i've taken some grief on this board for defending my asils, and i will defend them till they throw dirt in my face. breed them down to get the head hunter out of them, and they're awsome. i fight them as stags in the gaff. they put them deep, and with the right pattern so they don't hang they put them often. :hat:
December 19th, 2005, 02:29 PM
good luck amigo
December 19th, 2005, 05:10 PM
You're just stubborn. This trait is good but not in this case. Regards.
December 20th, 2005, 07:07 PM
No fowl is smarter than the next one but some just got better fighting skills than the other. Fowls act on instinct, they don't have the ability to think. In my opinion Orientals are as dumb as their western counterpart. Cheers
December 20th, 2005, 10:42 PM
you said"orientals are as dumb as their western counterpart".
A true cocker/breeder won't say this word to their beloved gladiators.I LOVE my birds,very much.They may use their instincts and not their brains.But I'll never,ever once will call them dumb!Are you a True Cocker/Breeder?Pls expound what you mean by this.thanks
December 20th, 2005, 11:08 PM
If you want the Fighting Style of Hit and Watch and Hit and Watch then it is the best.
December 21st, 2005, 01:40 AM
Let me ask you this then. When you turn loose a good oriental grade & he just moves slowly across the pit, waiting for the other bird to do what he is going to do, so he can decide what to do him self, is that not smart???
I have seen some of my Jap grades, change styles just to be able to cut with out getting cut back & adapt to over come, that is pretty smart.
You break 5 ft in the air, I will break 5.5ft in the air, or just wait until you come down, what ever is the SMARTEST move at the time. I have seen their styles, compleetly change, depending on their opponent. Can you honestly say that Western fowl can do that.
These birds are so smart that I even had one of them, on the way back home, after a big derby win, ask me for part of the prize money so he could buy some beer to celebrate, :lol:
No, you call it what you want but, wheather you say that they are smarter or just have better instincts, it all boils down to one thing, they have what Western fowl don't have much of.
December 21st, 2005, 05:26 AM
Timberliine Mid-America 12 Cock champion score 12-0 and 11-1. What else can you ask for? You've all got the wrong Asil, mine's the best! :lol:
December 21st, 2005, 08:59 AM
These birds are so smart that I even had one of them, on the way back home, after a big derby win, ask me for part of the prize money so he could buy some beer to celebrate,
okey one beer for me too :lol: :lol:
December 21st, 2005, 10:31 AM
hi colt 39,
that's smart cock you have....did you give any? joke only...
ha ha ha....good that he ask for generic beer not colt 45....ha ha ha....i will listen intently to my asil, what i hear i coke co la ok ok ....no offspring yet....
December 21st, 2005, 11:50 AM
We got some boles asil crosses from huerks 937 855 3131
Fantastic all were multiple winners after winning a good fight a man offered me 750 dollars for winning cock, I still Have a 6 year old brook cock from that group, he will be in with 3 hens this spring.
He is 1/3 boles asil 1/3 golden grey 1/3 hugh norman roundhead, wow what a combination,,good looking roosters and hens. I suspect the golden grey is hulsey/grey,
December 26th, 2005, 10:45 AM
i need some help here guys.do you think that breed asil could make it in the prairie?if so where do you think i can buy some good quality asil?
December 26th, 2005, 05:04 PM
tonio and juan sabungero they have asils
i like the hatchroundheadasil of juan
checkout tonio`s gallery it`s awesome
sir juan and tonio kelan kaya ako makakakuha ng rampuri ninyo.
December 26th, 2005, 09:00 PM
Few breeders infuse asil blood to create a battle cross up to 1/8 to 1/16. At this ratio you can hardly detect the asil phenotype. But their breeders still refer to these battlecross' as asils when in fact they only carry a small percentage of that oriental blood.
It is therefore a misnomer to refer to these fightingcocks which carries a minute percentage of asil blood as asil.
January 18th, 2006, 12:00 AM
Brownred/Jap stag just trimmed, that I sold on the Gamerooster auction.
He is a 1/2 & 1/2.
He plans on putting a spanking on the Western fowl, especialy Sweaters, :lol:
January 18th, 2006, 12:36 AM
nice pic jim...looks like he's ready to spank some sweater pullet;)
January 18th, 2006, 12:47 AM
Yep, that is what he is going to be used for, just thought I would give the Oriental haters a hard time, :lol:
January 20th, 2006, 10:29 AM
For me Game Oriental are the most beautiful fowl on earth:D
January 20th, 2006, 11:22 PM
i myself never like asil i always thought they were the ugliest bird ever graze in a cockpit.....til my uncle went to alex motilbanos farm in negreos and acquired some new battle cross for me...then he email a pic of my new gamefowls...i was suprised of how pretty this asil crossed to a roundhead was...man if looks could kill.....btw heres the pic enjoy asil lovers....
Asil x Roundhead....
January 21st, 2006, 12:32 AM
March 7th, 2006, 06:20 AM
March 7th, 2006, 09:18 AM
hatch X mugg blend
March 30th, 2006, 12:23 PM
im winning with my indian asils for now......i infuse them to my BBsweaters and bobby fairchild kelsos and also the greys of mayor JGA...
my best winning line are the sweater X kelso with a dash of asil......these are my complete fighting machine..speed, power and accuracy packed as one.......but i have problems on their sizes.. they are quite huge fowls ranging mostly from 2.3 - 2.7 kg.....
i usualy fought them on hacks..... i can fight them to smaller opponents since my birds are not that good looking because of the asil infusion...its my advantage, bt i still hope to fight them on derbies someday if i can reduce their sizes... i hate fighting large fowls on derbies...
March 30th, 2006, 02:14 PM
we're almost on the same track. I'm also into hackfights. But I don't breed (finacially constrained to acquire good breeding stocks). What I do is get the ugly birds from my uncles (4 of them are breeding commercially) and fight them in hackfights. And you're correct, almost all of the time they give me the advantage because of the way my fowls look.
One of my source is breeding his orientals with some heavy hatches with a lot of power and speed. Most of my opponents are amazed at the different style of fighting these birds show during the fights.
March 30th, 2006, 02:29 PM
Right now my 2 times winner 1/2 Bobby Boles Asil 1/2 BB Sweater
breeding him to 3 Pure Sweater Hen, making 7/8 Sweater 1/8 Asil
hope his Stag will put more Win in the board...
March 30th, 2006, 02:39 PM
any game chickens can be a good cross for orientals. they bring smartness, vigor and cutting accuracy.
but need a right type of orientals to have a nick or else what you'll get are good only for fried chickens :D
March 30th, 2006, 04:13 PM
i started with a small fast Reza asil cock over a McLean Hatch hen. I have only sons as they cannibalized their only sister. Then I crossed them to hennie hens...and Im waiting for their sons to grow up and see if they do well.
March 31st, 2006, 01:30 AM
March 31st, 2006, 10:16 AM
For the knife cross them to fowl that will add speed and shuffle...brownreds/blacks, roundheads, kelso.
Mine go well with Leiper hatch, but finding a nick with hatch type birds is very hard. So if you are starting out with orientals I would suggest breeding it to speed fowl.
March 31st, 2006, 10:32 AM
Here are videos of different kinds of grades
March 31st, 2006, 10:38 AM
tonio, i saw one of your black stags kill real fast last year. it won unscathed. seemed like it had oriental blood in it...
is it true that you've got to dilute the asil blood to at least 1/4 in order to get a nick?
March 31st, 2006, 11:03 AM
not really most of mine are 50-50..but the benifit of 3/4-1/4 is the size...my asils are small so I get alot of birds that can't be fought in derbies at 1/4 asil they are already derby size in fact many come huge 2.4-2.5
March 31st, 2006, 11:08 AM
great! you're definitely doin one heluva good job breeding your orientals... it shows in the way they win in the pit..
March 31st, 2006, 11:58 AM
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