Ray Boles Sweaters

[Tonne]

Hello! Just woundering if anybody can tell me about Ray Boles Sweaters, do they have what it takes for the long knife competions? Don't here to much about his sweaters on this site, only herd about Nesmith, Bruce b., Slicklizzerd,Middleton. Who would be the best choice to accquire some Sweaters from for the brood pen? Will apprreciate your feed back Aloha!:sprcool:

[steben_cgal]

These are the following sweater breeders that are famous in this site:

Bruce Barnette , Carol & Chris Nesmith, and Dink Fair!:rbounce:

[BananaCamp]

I went to a derby here in NM last year this entry fought Boles sweaters they went 5 and 0 in the short knife. Classic sweater color light red, yellow legs, and never made any mistakes. They kept the other birds in front of them and was never out of position. They just had one medium break but I think through selection you can find good up and down roosters for the LK.

[ichon blood]

I think Ray Boles' sweaters are bred for the short knife coz what i've heard is that most of his customers are Mexicans. I've seen them fight and yes they don't break high but they have lots of feet and no bill hold.

[LAFrms1]

If you want sweater that will beak high, with their head back and feet out and get the job done quick. Bruce Barnett!

[ichon blood]

Bad for Bruce Barnett's fans. You said his sweaters fight "HEAD BACK FEET IN":D

[L. Rutledge]

If you want good honest fowl deal with Ray. I have seen his fowl fought in the gaff and the LK. They fight smart, are deadly cutters and all that I have seen are dead game. If your going to fight the LK I dont think you will go wrong with these Fowl. YFIS

[LAFrms1]

How do you figure that, that is bad that is what you want in a rooster or do you want one that gets head shots all the time.;)

[Benjie Lu]

LAFrms1,

I think Ichon was referring to the "FEET IN" part. I think you meant "HEAD BACK, FEET OUT"...:)

Anyway, it's no big deal, we get what you mean. Bruce's roosters have proven their worth here in the Philippines and are one of the most sought after lines.

YFIS,
Benjie Lu

[Ray Boles]

I would like to thank those who made a unbiased account of my fowl. Yes, most of my fowl do go to Mexico, but it is only because the men from Mexico come early and buy all my birds. My birds are excellent LK fowl and you will see this in the near future. UFIS Ray Boles

[Pinolim]

Ray Boles, I admire the way you handle critics about your roosters. Good luck!!!

[Kelly Green]

Ray Boles has very good sweaters and they do break, maybe not all of them break. But if every stag or cock that we raise would break and fight like hell we wouldnt have CULLS. And if you think that there is a farm anywere that dont have a cull on it then you better look again.:rbounce:

[BananaCamp]

Thanks for visiting the site Mr Boles. I have a request, can you list your updated website address?

[Ray Boles]

My web site address is bolesgamefarm.com. UFIS Ray

[kakarukyia]

Agree,

A friend of mine in alabama recommended Ray's sweaters. He said he saw them chicken fight pretty good. Maybe he wasn't given a chance to show his chickens back home ( Phils ) or doesn't have a buyer who uses his name like Nene Abello for Carol or Cris Nesmith of Blackwater Farms and Sonny Lagoon of Blue Blade for Bruce Barnett's fowl.

As Pinolim says, I also admire the way you handle critics. Let me be the one to show them Filipinos what your chickens are made off LOL

:rbounce:

Love Kelly's birds too. Admire those that won in the WSD even those that lost. Proud to have those lines. I'm savin a dollar a day, hopefully I can acquire those bloodlines from Kelly & Ray before year 2010 LOL:)

YFIS,

jbab

[Ray Boles]

I should have mentioned earlier that some of my fowl are bread not to break too high. They are sweater-asil. I think most fights are won on the ground and not in the fly. It doesnot matter how high a birds breaks if his opponent does not go up with him. I prefer smart and accurate cutters. Just my oppinion. UFIS Ray

[cedreq]

i've tried using Ray's sweaters before and it did good for me...
good cutter...won 2...the other one was a 2x winner before drawing his last fight...one was a 1x winner but got hurt in one eye...


for me..kelly green's fowl are very good,though i haven't tried
them in actual pit yet...i will be using 2 of his fowls this coming january...hope will do good for me as well...kelly pls say hello to Pam...those stags then, was personally picked by Pam..thx a lot
and Good luck on WSD 04....

Ray

[Ben Rodriguez]

Most of these fowl from the mentioned breeders are related in some way or another. They are all friends and i am sure that they share fowl.

[ulokandiaMaster]

:cool:

[timiboy420]

I wonder why Ray remain silent for so long.When ever he write something in this thread I learn something very important about chicken. Ray don't mind those critic that cross your path bec. we all know that whenever you put yourself on the spotlight many will cross you bec. of their different ideas and breeding method. Intense Inbreeding works for you, Line-breeding works for others, as one of the readers in this thread I know many were so silent and very observant and grasp whatever they can get about the argued topic. We in this thread know that there is something very important in your method. Cheer up Professor more power to you.
Kelly I admire your Roundhead. excellent bird

[Blots jr]

i agree to mr. boles about the high breaking chickens . hes right all the fight ends up on the ground . unless first break could kill the other one . but ,thatsnot the case all the time ,fight always end up on the ground . all my chicken that i raise dont break high . and, im loving it cause they giving me winnnings . they hit like a mule and i could see the opponent in shock or drop dead everytime they hit .

[OakwoodGameFarm]

Whatever you blend on the 3/4 & 1/4 mix that nick is always good depending on what youre aiming LK,SK, G, etc.

[RayBoles]

If you have the 2006 Candelaria tape, the first four birds fought under the entry name IloiloAla were mine. Check them out and post your observations.

[elson55]

Ray, I saw fight no. 1 (1-31-06) of Guy Garcia; it appeared to me that it timed the buckles very well. A very convincing win and basically the fight lasted for 51 secs. By the way, it’s good to see you posting again.

[RayBoles]

Thanks elson55, The fourth fight was even shorter. Ckeck it out.

[ulokandiaMaster]

Have seen those fights and was very impressed the way your birds fought, they are tough birds, goodluck to your future fights and your birds is really a force to reckon with...thanks!

[Wildcoconut]

I would like to thank those who made a unbiased account of my fowl. Yes, most of my fowl do go to Mexico, but it is only because the men from Mexico come early and buy all my birds. My birds are excellent LK fowl and you will see this in the near future. UFIS Ray Boles

Pretty impressive looking fowl. Are you capable of shipping to the Island of Guam. Would really love to get my hands on some of your fowl. Its looks like you've really done your homework.

[Hotcocker]

All Rays birds are is a cross of barneet nesmith, atkins jumper and i think maybe sue wilson sweaters.. hes a crook! He had my friend raise birds for him around the time he made this post and picked up the stags and didnt pay him the 3,000$ he owed him and he didnt pick up the pullets either..

[MiguelitoIloilo]

All Rays birds are is a cross of barneet nesmith, atkins jumper and i think maybe sue wilson sweaters.. hes a crook! He had my friend raise birds for him around the time he made this post and picked up the stags and didnt pay him the 3,000$ he owed him and he didnt pick up the pullets either..

Try Ronnie Brendle's Sweaters from North Carolina... He's here right now in Manila. PM me for other details.

[vangerald]

If you want to win in the big derbies, better buy to Jim Clem...

[Hotcocker]

i like jims birds but wasnt aware he had sweaters. does he have a good record lately this ronnie brendle?

[Superlines]

We are in search of good Sweaters to begin with...please pass info who is honest to deal with in U.S. and reasonably priced!!!!

Thanks,

S

[OR GALLO]

Last time I was at Jim Clem's he was getting rid of the sweaters,so I think he doesn't breed sweaters any more unless he got a new line.

[Tejeda]

Superlines, pm me for info.

[albertmar1953]

Dre Superlines pls. pm me also for the Impormation

[wildrose]

Ray Boles sweater have a good show in Candelaria Derby in Phil. i forgot what year is that.I have Ray Boles sweater from a good friend NOE PALMARES.The fight good i know that the can win anywhere and any knife.I have only one problem there Height.And i hope Mr.Ray Boles you can help me where i can Cross this only the is my problem.For the fighting style its all in one.Thanks and GOD BLESS...

[guam_cockr]

Ray Boles ... Got his Sweaters from Bruce Barnette Ray and Bruce are cousins BRUCE BARNETTE USE TO WORK FOR CAROL NESMITH SO PRETTY MUCH FOUNDATION BLOOD FOR RAY BOLES CAME FROM BLACK WATER FARM AN HERD BRUCE HAD A FALL OUT WITH CAROL...

[BIGRIG18]

I should have mentioned earlier that some of my fowl are bread not to break too high. They are sweater-asil. I think most fights are won on the ground and not in the fly. It doesnot matter how high a birds breaks if his opponent does not go up with him. I prefer smart and accurate cutters. Just my oppinion. UFIS Ray
i agree with you sir,hope i could have one in the future.more power:)

[RayBoles]

guam cockr: My birds have none of the blood you posted. All my blood came from Sue Wilson. I worked for Carol a short time, because hed had a man quit and I filled in until he could get someone else. Just to keep the records straight. Wildrose, Noe has had by birds many years and has done well with them. Thanks for your post. This year we have won 5 out of sever derdies, going down in April to fight some more.

[MILLPOND]

guam cockr: My birds have none of the blood you posted. All my blood came from Sue Wilson. I worked for Carol a short time, because hed had a man quit and I filled in until he could get someone else. Just to keep the records straight. Wildrose, Noe has had by birds many years and has done well with them. Thanks for your post. This year we have won 5 out of sever derdies, going down in April to fight some more.

Hi RAY , I bought my sweaters direct from you in 2000 or 2001 not sure which don't have my breeding book in front of me right now but I remember you were sick with vertigo at the time . Anyway just wanted to say to you that I love love love your sweater bloodline .I show them straight bred in sk and gaff .I also do well with them myself winning many derby's .The percentage when fought straight is around 90 % I've been surprise repeatedly by the power that they have to sink the gaff even using twisters... In sk they break six feet if
they need to they seem to always just top their opponent most kill in the fly . CUT CUT CUT ... For the lk I cross with my butchers ,high breaking kill in the fly with power to spare .Don't know what else you
would want from them ,oh yea game how about broke leg and wing on same side with a fresh cock on him and after long drag kill other cock ...meet him across his side every time {gaff fight} Again I love
your sweaters and when others meet them across the pitt they will learn to respect them .... YFIS EDDIE

[MILLPOND]

This year breading my spangled mclean broodcock over 1/2butcher 1/2 boles sweater . This hen is nest sister to my best butcher sweater cock that competed during the last two years . At the same time I'm breeding the above cross sweater cock to red color yellow legged mclean hens . Going to try these in sk , The butcher took some of the finishing qualities away from the sweaters but love the high breaking the give. The mclean are good finishers they just shuffle across the back of a down rooster .Hope this will nick well both ways only time will tell ....
YFIS EDDIE

[hatch grey1]

i got ray boles sweaters in 2009 and i really like them... they fight sk in mexico.. stright or crossed to clear creek greys 1/2 and 1/2 and both have very impresive cutting abillity ..the pure ones comes light red to wine red veri fast and game .. they go to kill or got killed they are smarts but never think too much to go to kill the oponent i fought one as a stag and won with a broken leg to a 2 yrs cock and what i really love are the hens they are pretty, beutiful boddies and uniform, really nice birds this year i'm planing to refresh my blood with new rays blood..

[hatch grey1]

sorry i mean 2007 not 2009

[RayBoles]

Glad to hear some are doing well with my fowl. I have always said, it,s not what I can do with my fowl, but what my customers can do with them. Just got back from Mexico, so far we have won more derbies than we have lost. What I enjoyed the most was watching my 19th generation family spar. I have posted , I know what my fowl will look like and how they will perform, before they are hatched. As usual a couple gentlemen visiting the farm laughed at this statment. After seeing about 12 birds spar, they changed their mind. A bird can only fight as his genes and enviroment dictates. All my fowl now have an IC of 99%.

[Superlines]

Thank you for your postings Mr. Boles, I would highly appreciate if you could post new photos of your fowls or update photos of your website. I am dying to see them.

You'ved feed me too much on my brain on the subject of breeding. I trully salute you Ray! Once again Thank You!

[RayBoles]

Superlines, one of my problems has been trying to explain breeding in a manner that every one could understand. When you get into genetics it is not always easy to explain. That is why I always suggest doing you own research. One big problem is trying to get people who have raised chickens all their life, to admitt, that the method they were using was really going no where. That most of the breeding metods they used were wrong and would not work in the long term. A man in Mexico asked, how can you say you will know what your folw will be, before they are hatched. My reply was, how does the poultry industry know, approximately how much their fowl will eat, drink and how much they will weigh, almost every day of their life, up to the time they are taken to the processing house. Genetics and enviroment. I can take any family of fowl that is soled today and if the breeder will tell me exactly how they were breed, tell you if they have any IC or not and if they will breed with consistancy.

[RayBoles]

It is my opinion, that the best you can hope for today, when buying a trio, is to get one good enough to make your own family from, using proper breeding methods.

[moseley]

Ray i have seen where you have inbreed a family for 19 or 20 straight years. what stumps have you ran into with them? lose of size, gentleness, immunity, etc etc. i have heard a good selection and you can inbreed them forever. also was all these matings b/s or did you breed a similar bird into them for vigor. just like to hear what all as happened with them.

[RayBoles]

I have had NO problems so far. If you will read your reasearch closely, you will see, it says what MIGHT happen good or bad, not what will happen for sure. If only bad things could happen , how did man create all the animals and fowl that they made to be pure. It also will state , what to do if you have problems and what to do if you don,t. NOW make a list of all the stumps you have ran into , using the method you guys use. Make sure you have enough paper.

[GalloNC]

Sir Ray, I have a couple of ?s. First is do you breed all your fowl brother to sister?? Second is, if you breed brother to sister, are all your sweaters related just at a different IC%??

[RayBoles]

I only breed one pen brother to sister each year. The other pens are line breed. I try to maintain as high an IC as possible. My brother to sister pen will have a slightely higher IC each year. The line breed pens will have a slightly differant IC accoring to how they are breed. All pens at the present have atlest a 99% IC.

[ncyabut]

hi mr. boles, i hope you can give us the pleasure of seeing your fowls by posting some pictures here. cheers!

[Mike Everett]

I only breed one pen brother to sister each year. The other pens are line breed. I try to maintain as high an IC as possible. My brother to sister pen will have a slightely higher IC each year. The line breed pens will have a slightly differant IC accoring to how they are breed. All pens at the present have atlest a 99% IC.

Don't believe you Ray, you don't even know how (F) is calculated you have proved that, and that only. Only breeding consecutive brother/ sister mating, each line can only descend from a true brother/sister mating each generation, only then will you approach a (F) 98% in twenty generations. On previous threads you said you didn't do this.

[sucess gamefarm]

I always like your post both of you I'm not sure what you're saying but its very interesting and I how to speak this language some day.

[RayBoles]

Well Mike as usualy you don,t know what your talking about. I will ask you ONE MORE TIME, explain IC to the readers. You are right about the 98% in twenty years, this is my 20th year. So what is their IC Mike. OR should we argue about 1/10 of a percent. On the other hand Mike what is the IC of your fowl and how did you produce it. Admit it Mike ,all you have is a bunch of related birds with hardly any IC.. One minute, Mike, are you not the same person who posted there is no such thing as IC or have you taken it out. Tell all the readers how many years ago when you were making your PURE family,how you incorporated IC into your breeding program. Tell them how you added new blood and breed it out. Then how you fixed traits by line breeding. Should make some interesting reading, just remember, I know bull s--- when I read it wheather these other readers do or not. Mike if your are too old to comprehend what your are reading, please post , this is what I think it says. Mike see if you can understand this. If pen 1 has an IC of 97% and I breed it to pen 2 which has an IC of 97.5. Now with out being too precise, would the IC not be 97+%. If you can,t understand that , just answere the other questions I asked you.

[OREVON]

i enjoy watching you guys met in so many threads and still the same ol' discussion.......let's wait for colt maybe he's somewhere in one of the corners:)..........

let the performance of your fowls do the talking, what have you achieved guys? or your buyers achieved? either in the SK, Gaff or LK.........

[Mike Everett]

Well Mike as usualy you don,t know what your talking about. I will ask you ONE MORE TIME, explain IC to the readers. You are right about the 98% in twenty years, this is my 20th year. So what is their IC Mike. OR should we argue about 1/10 of a percent.... Mike see if you can understand this. If pen 1 has an IC of 97% and I breed it to pen 2 which has an IC of 97.5. Now with out being too precise, would the IC not be 97+%. If you can,t understand that , just answere the other questions I asked you.

Sorry Ray you still showing your lack of understanding, Never, said that there wasn't a Coefficient of Inbreeding as matter of fact I was the one that brought this up in our discussion. I said that there was no such term as "ICOE", that you made it up. You've proved my point, by not using it any more and now you are using "IC" which still is scientifically incorrect, but some do use it. The real term is (F) in scientific terminology. Ray I could have two pens of (70 and 75) and the resulting (F) could be 0 or anywhere in between it depends on their relationship. You can only achieve a twenty generation of a (F) of 98, if and only if you bred brother and sister, in consecutive matings. That means only two individuals can continue the line, each generation. If you breed a pen of brother/sister(s) the offspring will have the same (F). It's the next generation that will be the problem because they will only be half brother/sister, plus more because of their ancestry of their parents, but not as close as a true brother/sister mating. From there the next generation gets even more confusing, you have to know the pedigree of each individual, not of a pen. I have a computor program to figure my (F) and I and most breeders are not impressed by a high (F) only research breeders are concerned with a high(F) most people calculate their (F) and keep track as to not get too inbred.

[Mike Everett]

i enjoy watching you guys met in so many threads and still the same ol' discussion.......let's wait for colt maybe he's somewhere in one of the corners:)..........

let the performance of your fowls do the talking, what have you achieved guys? or your buyers achieved? either in the SK, Gaff or LK.........

We are just dicussing genetics, never said my fowl were any good, just that they pleased me.....LOL

[redbreeder]

I will have to agree with you on this post-point.......never said my fowl were any good, just that they pleased me........Mike, I got the Moore blood from Carol in the 80's and I too have been pleased with it....

[CA_Gamefarm]

Awesome! curious to see the final conclusion to this ..... i would love to get Jim Clem into this discusion, just to have a 3rd party shed some knowledge or opinion on this debate or i should say genetics discussion.... :)

[RayBoles]

That,s the problem, to much OPINION, and not enough fact. I did post ICOE, did you know what I ment , Mike, when I posted it. No IC , is not F. F is Factor 1 or 0 which ever you like. NO Mike, you never heard of IC before I brought it up. OR YOUR WOULD HAVE USED IT IN YOUR BREEDING PROGRAM. But you probably said, the genecists didn,t know what they were talking about. CA-Gamefarm , I would greatly appreciate any input to this supject, buy any one who knows what they are talking about. As I have quoted many, many times, bring in a genecists, a master dog breeder or any one who knows anything about proper breeding. See all you have, other than me, is people like Mike, who can,t contribute one thing about proper breeding, he sits there looking for things to argue about, like is IC or ICOE correct. I will cover any waiger he can put up, that if you breed using the same method he did, that your fowl will go down in 2-4 years and you will have very little consistancy. YOU SEE, MIKES METHOD IS OK WITH HIM, if you want to be like Mike and most game fowl breeders, that,s your option. I use the best method known to man at this time,, am I satisfied, HELL NO, I will try to improve my fowl every year , untill I can on longer breed. You can not have fowl that show consistancy and improvement using the methods they use. I HAVE TALKED TO GAMEFOWL BREEDERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, I HAVE NEVER MET ONE THAT KNEW OR USED PROPER BREEDING METHODS. The thing that I will never understand, is, the other people who post on this subject, and have all this genetic knowledge and all this know how on proper breeding metods, WHY DID THEY NOT USE IT WHEN THEY WERE DEVELOPING THEIR FOWL. MIKE YOU JUST BABLE, one of these days your going to piss me off enought, that will will hire a genecists to read your post and reply on what he thinks of what you are trying to pass on to these beginners. And also, is the material i have posted wrong.

[sucess gamefarm]

Could you 2 teach us what you're saying bye pictures and terminology thanks

[Mike Everett]

[QUOTE=RayBoles;3593128]That,s the problem, to much OPINION, and not enough fact. /QUOTE]

I only argue with blatant misrepresentation of the facts....One has to know how to calculate (F) in order to be able to use it, if I had the time and want I could show you the thread where I introduced Coefficient of Inbreeding into our discussion, I called it a tool. Call you friend the geneticist you're always talking about or just do the research. While you at it ask him how to use Wright's formula. Sorry to piss you off, but the more we discuss the more I can see you are a fraud. You sir are a liar or terribly misinformed or both.

[sucess gamefarm]

right about now mike his formula and im" guessing" is (F)(U) lol

[bskmac21]

here is something that I thought was interesting was a quote from my brother " don't argue with a idiot, he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience every time."
Hope this helps,lol. kyle

[Calikid_310]

any pics.. how do they look?

[guardia civil]

here is something that I thought was interesting was a quote from my brother " don't argue with a idiot, he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience every time."
Hope this helps,lol. kyle


Hiitttttt.... distance-----999 yards!

[RayBoles]

Let me show you readers how to shut up Mike real quick. Mike , make me a family, using your breeding method. So Mike what your are saying is, I didn,t know what IC was untill you posted it. Why should I have brought it up. You would not have know what I was talking about. Tell the through, Mike you never heard of it, until you started trying to prove me wronk. Like I said before, tell the readers how you used it when you were making your family. As a matter of fact, you learned more about breeding , while trying to prove me wrong, that your ever knew or heard of in you whole pathetic life. So Mike tell these readers how you made your family and what the IC is. Last responce to you old man, go soad your feet and put your teeth in a grass and see if you can find where I made a miss quote or miss spelled something, because you sure the hell can,t post anything about BREEDING GAME FOWL. Mike I will ask you ONE more time, tell the readers what IC is and what it is used for. Would some one take the time and look at all the post Mike has posted on this Site and post ONE thing he has ever posted that would help you in your breeding program.

[EA Olympus GF]

Can we just talk about Ray Boles Sweaters? Because this is what this thread is all about.

With all due respect sirs, maybe one of you can create a thread about breeding and genetics and do the discussions / debates on that thread.

just my two cents

[rbjbgamefowl]

Any update on Ray Boles Sweater, how it looks and how it perform. any pic?

[reli]

Let us bump this up........

[bullett]

ive used ray boles method 4 years IM NOT GONING TO SAY IT DOESENT HAVE A FEW FLAWS AND THAT EVERY BIRD COMES OUT OF THE EGG FLAWLESS butt as a whole i love this method of breeding very effective??????????? to set a strain of birds????????? as 4 this type of breeding the birds will get smaller BULL BUTTER hell my birds got bigger matter of fact to big????? matter of fact there leggs got to long to the point they looked like storkes?????????? and walked funny cause of there long leggs butt any way the simple fact is you need a lot of brood pens of yor line of birds that your setting to be effective???? at least 5 or 6 in my opnion MOST MEN SCATTER BREED / AND CROSS THE HELL OUT OF THERE BIRDS CAUSE IT A QUICKER WAY TO THE FINISH LINE THEN 3 YEARS LATTER WONDER WHY THERE ROUND HEADS ARE STARTING TO COME WITH GREEN LEGGS????? AND STRAIGHT COMBED??? and when the junk starts to appeare after some one has made a 3 way crooss guess who gets blamed yea thats right the breeder who took years to set his fowl as a strain IM NOT SAYIN RAYS IS THE ONLEY WAY TO BREED BUTT ITS VERY EFFECTIVE IN SETTING A STRAIN ONE WORD OF CAUTION HERE DO NOT TRY THIS METHOD WITH A BUNCH OF 3 0R 4 WAY CROSSES ITS ALLMOST IMPOSSIABLE TO SET THAT TYPE OF MESS AS A STRAIN

[bullett]

One of the things i like most about boles breeding methods is after around 4 or 5 years you dont have to cull hardley any birds i hardley every cull more than 10 percent of my birds ???? Thats right i dont have to raise 200 to show 75 birds i hardley every get a bird that cocks out under 4.14 lb or 4.12 very rare???? Hay butt this method is not 4 every one it takes a lot of brood pens and 4 or 5 years to start seeing the results????????????? If your goals are winning a durby next year or a barn hack next week start making those 3 and 4 way crosses and start sabonging theres nothing easy or quick about this method???

[kpi]

please pics i would love to see same of this fowl

[jpadilla]

upupup!!!! lets see those boles sweater pictures

[tarosa]

Hello! Just woundering if anybody can tell me about Ray Boles Sweaters, do they have what it takes for the long knife competions? Don't here to much about his sweaters on this site, only herd about Nesmith, Bruce b., Slicklizzerd,Middleton. Who would be the best choice to accquire some Sweaters from for the brood pen? Will apprreciate your feed back Aloha!:sprcool:

boles dont have sweaters then and never bred any kind except his famous asil.

[arkinsly-jrl]

ray boles is such a very good person to deal with! most of my sweaters came from him and they did really good to me! very birds with good timing cuts really good! i purchased another set of trio from him and the broodstag died and he replaced it with a new one and he paired it with a 3/4 sweater 1/4 asil as a gift! cant thank him enough! i wasnt expecting that!

[jam671]

post some pics please.
I want to see 100% identical birds with this breeding method.

[RayBoles]

Bullett, thanks for atleast trying the method, you have a good start and with patience and good selection, I promise you won,t be sorry. WHAT YOU CULL LESS, remenber when I posted this and some said I was crazy, ask your friends do they only cull 10%. Sorry I don,t get to post more often. Remember when some said they crossed to get vigor. what about breeding birds that have genetic natural vigor. I have done it for years. Hybride vigor goes away in 2 or 3 years, you can breed genetic vigor for generations. jam671 just because birds look identical does not mean their genes are identical. You can buy a boxer dog from one man and buy one that looks identical, from another, but their traits will be entirely differant, and when breed togeather the offspring will mostly be differant. This is the best way I can expalin it, if you have human, not fowl , brothers or have friends that have brothers, look at them, look how differant they are and how differant they act, although they had the same mother and father. Why do you think the trio you just purchased will be any differant. To be even close , to the same, your birds have to have a high IC. When we eventually get the people who don,t know and just want to argue out of the way, I will post more on breeding. the sad thing is, it is going to be about breeding methods they have never used or ever heard of, so they will just start the same old bull all over again. I can PROUDLY say, that in Mexico,we are still winning more derbies than we loose.

[OREVON]

Bullett, thanks for atleast trying the method, you have a good start and with patience and good selection, I promise you won,t be sorry. WHAT YOU CULL LESS, remenber when I posted this and some said I was crazy, ask your friends do they only cull 10%. Sorry I don,t get to post more often. Remember when some said they crossed to get vigor. what about breeding birds that have genetic natural vigor. I have done it for years. Hybride vigor goes away in 2 or 3 years, you can breed genetic vigor for generations. jam671 just because birds look identical does not mean their genes are identical. You can buy a boxer dog from one man and buy one that looks identical, from another, but their traits will be entirely differant, and when breed togeather the offspring will mostly be differant. This is the best way I can expalin it, if you have human, not fowl , brothers or have friends that have brothers, look at them, look how differant they are and how differant they act, although they had the same mother and father. Why do you think the trio you just purchased will be any differant. To be even close , to the same, your birds have to have a high IC. When we eventually get the people who don,t know and just want to argue out of the way, I will post more on breeding. the sad thing is, it is going to be about breeding methods they have never used or ever heard of, so they will just start the same old bull all over again. I can PROUDLY say, that in Mexico,we are still winning more derbies than we loose.

forget about all those critics of your method sir Ray. i hope you will continue sharing your methods to us.

may I ask, was this genetic vigor was the same as the mitochondrial DNA that can be passed continously by the hen never by the rooster?

[reslingblade]

Rey your my Mentor always look-up at your method of breeding
The sweater I got from dam good.

[blades61]

im just a dumb ole hillbilly i know pie are round and cake are square but because of this post i will educate myself on genetics.

[Larry Rutledge]

Several years ago I fell in love with a family of Rays fowl ( the in and ins) After years of badgering he gifted me a pair of hens from this family. I got a cock from another friend, its blood came from Ray, it had more Sue Wilson and the asil blood. In 5 generations with Rays help I locked these fowl into a family Im very pround of. I just wanted to add that selection is a key to breeding that shouldnt be overlooked in yer breeding program. Their all tools, and I believe testing and selection along with yer genes will get ya where you want to be. YFIS Larry

[reslingblade]

Several years ago I fell in love with a family of Rays fowl ( the in and ins) After years of badgering he gifted me a pair of hens from this family. I got a cock from another friend, its blood came from Ray, it had more Sue Wilson and the asil blood. In 5 generations with Rays help I locked these fowl into a family Im very pround of. I just wanted to add that selection is a key to breeding that shouldnt be overlooked in yer breeding program. Their all tools, and I believe testing and selection along with yer genes will get ya where you want to be. YFIS Larry

Larry Hi How you doing
Love your Roundhead wish i can get my hand's on those bird lol.

[jam671]

Bullett, thanks for atleast trying the method, you have a good start and with patience and good selection, I promise you won,t be sorry. WHAT YOU CULL LESS, remenber when I posted this and some said I was crazy, ask your friends do they only cull 10%. Sorry I don,t get to post more often. Remember when some said they crossed to get vigor. what about breeding birds that have genetic natural vigor. I have done it for years. Hybride vigor goes away in 2 or 3 years, you can breed genetic vigor for generations. jam671 just because birds look identical does not mean their genes are identical. You can buy a boxer dog from one man and buy one that looks identical, from another, but their traits will be entirely differant, and when breed togeather the offspring will mostly be differant. This is the best way I can expalin it, if you have human, not fowl , brothers or have friends that have brothers, look at them, look how differant they are and how differant they act, although they had the same mother and father. Why do you think the trio you just purchased will be any differant. To be even close , to the same, your birds have to have a high IC. When we eventually get the people who don,t know and just want to argue out of the way, I will post more on breeding. the sad thing is, it is going to be about breeding methods they have never used or ever heard of, so they will just start the same old bull all over again. I can PROUDLY say, that in Mexico,we are still winning more derbies than we loose.

I know what you are saying, they look alike, and they fight alike. All i was asking for are pictures of your birds. I am not doubting you, i just want to see pictures of your birds. If you dont want to show em, that is fine, just say so.

[Larry Rutledge]

I'm doing well thank you for asking Slingblade. Hope you and yours are doing well. YFIS Larry

[bstewart]

up up up......................

[GG Crasher]

Rayboles,
i wish if you could possibly post just some pictures of your sweater to glance..

many thanks..

[Hotcocker]

i seen alot of Rays sweaters, if looks could win a derby then he be COY every year, now as for performance I havent got to see but a couple, one won, one lost in LK.. cant judge them on that though can we.. I know a feller here close by who raised for ray, and alot of the stags all came close looking.. some were too long legged for my book , but most came built about right, he didnt pick up some of them one year and that was last year I seen many of them, guess if u see them and likem then try them, youll know before long what theyll end up meaning to you, good or bad, tryem and see.

[gamecock96]

That,s the problem, to much OPINION, and not enough fact. I did post ICOE, did you know what I ment , Mike, when I posted it. No IC , is not F. F is Factor 1 or 0 which ever you like. NO Mike, you never heard of IC before I brought it up. OR YOUR WOULD HAVE USED IT IN YOUR BREEDING PROGRAM. But you probably said, the genecists didn,t know what they were talking about. CA-Gamefarm , I would greatly appreciate any input to this supject, buy any one who knows what they are talking about. As I have quoted many, many times, bring in a genecists, a master dog breeder or any one who knows anything about proper breeding. See all you have, other than me, is people like Mike, who can,t contribute one thing about proper breeding, he sits there looking for things to argue about, like is IC or ICOE correct. I will cover any waiger he can put up, that if you breed using the same method he did, that your fowl will go down in 2-4 years and you will have very little consistancy. YOU SEE, MIKES METHOD IS OK WITH HIM, if you want to be like Mike and most game fowl breeders, that,s your option. I use the best method known to man at this time,, am I satisfied, HELL NO, I will try to improve my fowl every year , untill I can on longer breed. You can not have fowl that show consistancy and improvement using the methods they use. I HAVE TALKED TO GAMEFOWL BREEDERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, I HAVE NEVER MET ONE THAT KNEW OR USED PROPER BREEDING METHODS. The thing that I will never understand, is, the other people who post on this subject, and have all this genetic knowledge and all this know how on proper breeding metods, WHY DID THEY NOT USE IT WHEN THEY WERE DEVELOPING THEIR FOWL. MIKE YOU JUST BABLE, one of these days your going to piss me off enought, that will will hire a genecists to read your post and reply on what he thinks of what you are trying to pass on to these beginners. And also, is the material i have posted wrong.

Just a few questions. Doing the type of breeding that you are doing? Do you still have battlefowls or everything you breed comes from 1 family of fowl. 2nd, how many fowls do you have to raise to be successful with your breeding program?

[bstewart]

more info from ray would be appreciated

[victor]

Hi Guys, I have a friend that bought Sweater and RH from ray... Took pics of his Sweater.... Ill post soon.

Best,
Victor

[OR GALLO]

www.bolesgamefarm.com
There's pictures there, and they look great to me.

[jam671]

http://www.bolesgamefarm.com/stag13.jpg
Very Nice White Legs Ray. They are sure a beauty with such a tight inbreeding methods. 2 thumbs up for you.
http://www.bolesgamefarm.com/stag11.jpg

[OR GALLO]

Ray who are you partners with in Mexico? Or do you run the farm yourself?

[rbjbgamefowl]

master Ray Boles, your sweater is a long knife fighter, how they acts and perform, what is their style?

[RayBoles]

Jam671 the two white leg birds are a result of locking the genes on some round heads that George Woods gave me. Larry may still have some of these birds. My partner in Mexico is Louis Gonzales, Cotija Mexico. I always thought it strange that those who said this method would not work were the ones who never tried it. But as time goes by more will try it and more will see how important it is. If you don,t have consistancy, you don,t have anything.. blades61 you have to understand basic genetics to know what is happening in you breeding program. If you have problems, you will know where it came from and what to do about it. Not like the old timers, just kill every thing. Untill you make a family with a high IC you will just be rolling the dice. Notice I said make your own family, doubt if you will ever buy a family with a high IC, never met a breeder who knew how to make one. They just call them pure. You would think that after the millions of trios of fowl that has been sold for breeding, people would not be looking for new blood all the time. If I can help, just ask, no problem.

[blades61]

thank you ray i never did put spmthing down just because i didnt understand it.my favorite fowl are R/H..i will get my questions together and get with you once again i thank you.

[RayBoles]

Orevon: vigor can be a genetic trate like speed or anything else. But it is much easier to pass the gene when breed to a related bird with the same gene. The importance of a family with a high IC is never ending. The more you research the more you will see this .

[Hotcocker]

thats the first time i ever saw white legged sweaters.. do u still have the asil pure?

[RayBoles]

In the early years of my breeding, I would get some white leg fowl, but I rarely do now. I have never had Asil. I have a family, set at 3/4 sweater - 1/4 asil.

[ripley combine]

mike let me try to help you with Mr. Boles in sight To start off with he is talking about inbreeding coefficients. it is a maticulas breeding program which takes high intelligence to do. the factors and variables are approximately minute 3% to 6% 10%max. Read (WRIGHT'S INBREEDING COEFFICIENTS IC) HOPE I HAVE HELP YOU BOTH IN YOU'ALLS DISCUSSION. GOOD LUCK TO BOTH OF YOU THIS HAS BEEN A FOLLOWING OF MINE TO STUDY GENECTICS I AM STILL NOT VERY GOOD BUT I WILL KEEP TRYING. GOOD LUCK AND MAY GOD BLESS BOTH OF YOU! YFIS CHARLIE

[RayBoles]

Reply combine: I fully understand IC, it has been part of my breeding program for many years, thanks for your input and keep up your research and I bet your understanding of breeding will improve.

[Mike Everett]

mike let me try to help you with Mr. Boles in sight To start off with he is talking about inbreeding coefficients. it is a maticulas breeding program which takes high intelligence to do. the factors and variables are approximately minute 3% to 6% 10%max. Read (WRIGHT'S INBREEDING COEFFICIENTS IC) HOPE I HAVE HELP YOU BOTH IN YOU'ALLS DISCUSSION. GOOD LUCK TO BOTH OF YOU THIS HAS BEEN A FOLLOWING OF MINE TO STUDY GENECTICS I AM STILL NOT VERY GOOD BUT I WILL KEEP TRYING. GOOD LUCK AND MAY GOD BLESS BOTH OF YOU! YFIS CHARLIE

Yep, it's a good breeding method for laboratory mice......LOL

[ripley combine]

thank you mr. boles i raise a few stags every year for mr. nesmith and would like your permission to stop buy and visit you in person sir? i would like to get some insight on your theory. yfis charlie

[tebs69]

I only breed one pen brother to sister each year. The other pens are line breed. I try to maintain as high an IC as possible. My brother to sister pen will have a slightely higher IC each year. The line breed pens will have a slightly differant IC accoring to how they are breed. All pens at the present have atlest a 99% IC.


Ray , I read your previous post ,, I thought all your chickens are inbreed , but as I read your write ups ,, only ONE SINGLE PEN is for inbreeding mating, bro-sis mating , hehehehehe.
and OTHERS ARE LINE BREED .. so you used line breeding method more than inbreeding,, meaning to say that your ONE SINGLE INBREEDING PEN is for experimental only , either to work or not .. 1 SINGLE INBREEDING PEN and 100 LINE BREEDING PEN ,, look at that ratio..making us a FOOL ..
maybe you want us subcriber of this breeding thread to destroy our fowl at very short time causing inbreeding depression ,, for advicing to inbreed them all the time, bro-sis mating ..
VERY GOOD ADVICED ,,,,, THANK YOU

[Butch93]

Line breeding, bro sis mating its all a form of inbreeding. U have 2 alelles on the dna strand dominate which is the seen or displayed trait and a recessive which is the unseen or unknown. When inbreeding a stain all your trying to do is stack the alelles so that they are both the same. U want the dominate and recessive gene to be the same so no matter what side of the dna ribbon gets pulled from when breeding it will consistantly be the same. This is the sole purpose of inbreeding wether its bro sis or line breeding. Unfortunatly all we can see is the displayed trait until they come up with a dna test for chickens so u can match them up withh 100% certanty until then all a breeder can do is cull fowl that crop up with these undisired traits. This happens in people all the time you see it in tay sachs and cycle cell the thing is when they pair up its a disaster and you get these deseises but when u only get one allele and its recessive it has its benifits such as if u only have the recissive for tay sachs your imune to tuburculoses and in cycle cell your immune to milaria. So do you really want to breed all the bad genes out of your fowl? Maybe but when you do what are the repercussions going to be? Will you have fowl that are more desease prone? Probably but the benifit is when u outcross u know exactly what your going to get.my partner jerry hamlin has had his asil in his family for 3 generations now and he does line breed but doesnt breed real tight but some how his family is still one of the best asil family's in the world so take it with a grain of salt this is just my two cents and ive seen breeding programs done both ways and they both have there pluses and minuses. You can maintain family's for long periods of time without super tight breeding as long as your super observant and select your fowl carefuly and u can also inbreed heavily and maintain top notch fowl with the right selection. Most strains take a dump because of breeder breeding every hen they pop out, flock mating and piss poor record keeping. This is what showing fowl is all about, to test how well your fowl are maintained and to check for less than desired traits. Some where people along the line have lost site of this and in some groups its about the money from sales or gambling and people just talking sh!t. Well im done
Yfis
Mark

[RayBoles]

Excellent post Mark, take the gambling, flock breeding, a
bull s--- out, and how many would be left. The advantage Mr. Hamlin has , is he had a pure family to start with, that is a big advantage to start with. If you don't have a pure family to start, then you have to make one, this is what my program has always been. How to make a pure family and how to maintain it. If you know a better way please post it.

[colt39]

Excellent post Mark, take the gambling, flock breeding, a
bull s--- out, and how many would be left. The advantage Mr. Hamlin has , is he had a pure family to start with, that is a big advantage to start with. If you don't have a pure family to start, then you have to make one, this is what my program has always been. How to make a pure family and how to maintain it. If you know a better way please post it.

I agree. Asils are already set. All you have to do is use a good eye & breed them.

Jerry also went to Les Melvill for blood.

Ray, I have to admit. Those two white legs in the top pic are beauty's.

[Butch93]

I dont have any better way Ray you can bro sis mate or line breed to set a strain and both are a gamble. Ive done bro sis matings and had great results and also had bad results just all a crap shoot in a way. The worst bro sis mating experiance i had is with some nigger rh there parents died and the ofspring i had were real good but when i bread the sibling they came out very high stung nervous and mean then i did bro sis matings that came out perfect and when that happens your good to go because u have a very tight gene pool. I just think there are 2 completly differant philosophies when it comes to breeding. 1st one being breed tightly inbred fowl and outcross to other inbred fowl for battle fowl. Then the other is raise one family and constantly try to improve it by adding blood and line breeding. They only raise this family for battle fowl and achieve uniformity through line breeding and selection. From what i seen and read id say allen rh and Blackwater sweaters are examples of this style. I wish i knew which way was the best but i think there are just differant ways and thats what makes this sport fun as well as you could show examples of sucessful ways of both styles of breeding and give an argument for both. As far as jerry's asil your right he inherited a set family but i know for a fact blood was added once cant remember if it was his dad or grandpa but they were gifted a 1/2 asil 1/2 jap cock from bobby boles so it was bred in bobby would never give him a pure asil cock he said but was happy to get the one they got. Now how they set it after that i couldnt tell you that be his family secrete.
Yfis
Mark

[RayBoles]

Butch93: that's my point ,I have never heard or read of a breeder who actually set a strain with a high IC, all they produced were related fowl. How much do you and your 1,2,3rd cousins have in common. With out consistency what do you have. Some may have a family for 30 years, but how about the tens of thousands whose fowl go down in 2 or 3 years. These are the people i am trying to educate. There is a scientific reason for most things. Not the old adage s--- happens.

[Butch93]

No doubt Mr. Boles im not saying u were right wrong or trying to bust your chops just was putting my 2 cents in to further the discussion. Also i dont think you have to even lool at cousins to see a differance i can tell u i look nothing like my sisters lol. There is alot of truth to your method and no doubts that it works because it has helped u produce some nice fowl and is one way to breed which i do do myself. I just think that the other method has been done with success also. What i feel can be done is with carful selection and ruthless culling a family can be maintained where all family members come out very simular and alot of people try this way and it is very hard because alot of people have trouble culling and want to breed everything that comes out and this is a big reason the family's fall apart, plus there are several other reasons also some people just get excited seeing a bird flap his wings and throw a bunch of legs they never bother looking where they are actually placing there legs other will breed a bird because they are a winner and dont pay attention to conformation. Also good pit fowl dont always make good brood cocks. I think people if there are going to be competative in this sport jeed to understand genetics and why things happen, as well as select only the fowl with best conformation and temperment and test offspring to make sure that u have selected the right brood. Im sure im not telling u anything u dont already know just putting it out there for others to read. Your right in setting a strain it makes it much easier to maintain charactoristics in a family amd makes outcrossed fowl more consistant also just saying i have seen it done with success without this method also but takes an extremly good breeder. Also with all the superstitions and misinformation out there its no wounder beginer are so confused lol. The only way to know for sure is try it and see. I went to every oldtimer around and still do. Always kept my mouth shut and ears open and took the things i liked from each one and implamented them in my program to make my own way and i still have a long way to go. Just wished they could get rid of all the feather peddlers out there so when a newcomer wants to get started his first experiance isnt getting ripped off. All i can tell any newcomer out there is my best fowl always were given to me or sold to me by someone i new well that wanted to do me right. Any time u want to talk about breeding Ray id be more than happy to talk to you i like the genetics part. After i was in this sport for a few years i went to college just to study genetics a little to help me out. I also talked to alot of dairy men also. They have simular methods as we do because they are always trying to produce heffers that are the highest milk producers they can. You ever get a chance have one show you there breeding charts and philosophies its pretty interesting. Well until the next time
Yfis
Mark

[RayBoles]

Butch93, I don't know how long you have been in the game, but you are years ahead of most in your thinking and open mindness. Glad to see you have talked to other animal breeders and have some genetic knowledge. If possible, contact some master dog breeders, those guys have Alot of knowledge and experience. Give me a call any time, no one likes discussing breeding more than myself. I am always willing to learn. In the last few years I have pleasingly learned, there are some knowledgeable, poultry breeders out there.

[Butch93]

Well been raising fowl for myself for 15 years and been around them my whole life. Im still a young man and dont claim to know much just know what mistakes ive made and what old timers showed me. When i got out of the service i moved to pheonix az and went to watch the fights with a man name steve anzar. Shortly after it was outlawed there and i moved back to ca. I started out buying birds from peddlers not knowing any better and bought there b.s. I got my first break when i got a trio of old time allens that were dynomite but later found out they were stolen. I went to the man who they were taken from and he told me to keep them. Next my partners father n law took us to a friend of his rick mayo who sold us some very good fowl for cheap. We got bill morris blueface, ray alexander lacy, benny bidwell blues and cardnal club kelso. From there we were off and running. I am fortunate to come from an area that many good cockers called home. People like doyal thompson, walt faglart, slick mayo his buddy from oregon benny biddwell, oriville evans rudy turner and bobby boles was from a hour north and many other great cockers. I talk to every old timer i could and was just a spounge took the things i thought were good ideas and disreguarded what i thought was crazy or superstitious. I made plenty of mistakes and biggest learning curve was just learning what style pen worked and how to deal with preditors. Dogs ruined my day more than once lol. Got to a point at one time had around 400 roosters and all was good until my partner got divorced and lost the land a few years back and had alot of problems since then. 2 years ago had the barn burn down where my birds were at and lost alot of birds. Since then just been breeding seed stock and getting trios of blood from friends who had gotten them from ke or jerry. I met jerry hamlin about 10 years ago and we became very good friends. Jeryy has gifted me more fowl and done more for me than i could ever pay back. Some people like him some dont but the man has always been good to me. The past 2 years like i said just been maintaining and collecting seed fowl and at this time praying that my offer on some land goes threw so i can get fired up and raise a good amount of birds again. I have always been a sk man and i breed feed and tie but dont pit do to my back being tore up, hurt it in bosnia. Many people have pited against my fowl and dont even know it cause of that but that fine with me. I dont care for the gambling just love fighting birds, i would do it for free im just happy when my birds win. Im hoping to get the land and start gearing more for lk so i can send tyem to jerry's partner tiny menesis and get my foot in the door there amd see if i can be conpetative with my rh and asil crosses. I dont try and claim to be nothing im not. Im just an okie who has a love for this sport. Ive had my ups and downs.

[Butch93]

I havent posted on these boards for years but use to post on gamefowl many moons ago and if people put 2 & 2 together they'd remember who i am. I just stopped because it always seemed liked someone always knew better or i was all wrong. I just like sharing idea's with people and talking to as many as i can but dont like to argue because someone thinls im all wrong. This place is to share idea's and get differant points of views its up to you wether you try them or not. I just wish people would put there differances aside and try and revive the sport but you have to be smart about it not go out and present ourselves as a bunch of hillbillies, red necks or border brothers which is what most people outside the sport thinks. I remember i gave a speach in a college class about cockfighting and explained to them it was all about breeding and that the metal spurs were actualy started in use to be more humane so they didnt fight for days and you would be supprised how many misconseptions there are out there. I sat there and answered questions for an hour after the speech and you'd be supprised how many people were ok with things after everything was explained without all the animal lovers propaganda.well i babbled long enuff just wanted to give my story so people know what im about. Im not trying to be something im not. Im no big timer just a ditch bank okie who loves to raise chickens. And feel that since i had to go to combat to fight for other peoples rights i should have the right to do what i like to. Im not hurting noone and raising chickens keeps ke out of trouble lol. I will definatly give you a call some time Ray
Yfis
Mark

[redbreeder]

All the BEST to you Sir Butch93, I enjoyed reading your story......thank you for serving our country and our FREEDOM! My hat is off to you, you are an honorable man.....GOD BLESS U SIR.....

[RayBoles]

JD looks like you still have a good eye for fowl. I recognize the bird in the pic and remember who I sent him to. He was the last bird I sent to the PI. I liked him because he had a little more blond on the end of his hack feathers than normal.

[johndi]

mr boles,
sorry i wasn't read this thread from the start...i just have only 1 question.

as i understand to keep 1 bloodline pure you have to breed bro-sis , mother-son & father-daugther mating.but how long can you maintain them?

[RayBoles]

Breed B-S for as long as it takes to set the traits, 5 generations or more, as long as it takes. To keep increasing the IC, breed B-S each generation. The others can be breed in any direction, as long as it is the best to the best. I never breed fowl that are 4 generations apart and don't have the same mother and father. That's as simple as I can put it. Because of all the arguing , in never posted all the methods I users and why and I sure quit bringing up genetics. Just for Mike, scientist don't use mice because they can take inbreeding, as you posted, as a matter of fact, mammals can't take intensive inbreeding and they only use my method to produce perfect specimens, is that not what all game fowl breeders are trying to achieve.

[OldAl]

Mr. Boles do you wait to breed bro sis until they reach two years of age or will you pair them when younger.I have read some of your methods before and plan on using this method with two different fowl that i really like and and want to preserve for the future.I have the bro /sis pair picked out but am waiting until next year as this year they are in the first molt.The cock I am using has a phenotype and characteristics of his mom and the hen resembles the old cock.Let me explain the hen is yl pc the chosen bro is yl pc The old cock is wl pc the chosen sis is wl pc .I hope you understand what I am getting at the next generation of bro sis mating should use a stag that resembles the original hen and a hen that resembles the original cock.What are your thoughts on this please?Thank you.

[gamecock96]

When just starting to make a family from a cross. Which one is more important to you in selecting? Phenotype or genotype? We would all want them to look and fight consistent but when you start from crosses, they would not nescessarily have the same same phenotypes and genotype. So to start with, which one would you prioritize .

Al

[GG Crasher]

When just starting to make a family from a cross. Which one is more important to you in selecting? Phenotype or genotype? We would all want them to look and fight consistent but when you start from crosses, they would not nescessarily have the same same phenotypes and genotype. So to start with, which one would you prioritize .

Al
very good question...hope ray boles can answer

[Butch93]

Until they make a dna test for chickens so we can read the dna strands phenotype is all we know forsure the full genotype is a crapshoot. Thats where those "throwbacks"come from. All u can try to do when inbreeding is stackthe alleles and hope the recessive is the same as the expresses but to my knowledge no way to know a 100%. inbreeding heavily gives you the best chance of concentraiting the phenotype and concentraiting the gene pool. Everytime you mix in outside blood or a distant relative you break up the concentration of genessometimes when you reconcentrait them from inbreeding you get better fowl and other times the fall apart just have to try and see.
Yfis
Mark

[Butch93]

I agree. Asils are already set. All you have to do is use a good eye & breed them.

Jerry also went to Les Melvill for blood.

Ray, I have to admit. Those two white legs in the top pic are beauty's.

Thats true and if i remember right he got some from larry lingerfelt few years back also but coult tell you forsure if the blood was added or just something he was playing with. I know he liked crossing his asil making 1/2 and 1/2 then using the best cock for making his grades. I had a bunch of grades fowl that were made with a 1/2 red 1/2 black asil. I also know he has red, white and black asil. From the pics ive seen his and les's reds look very simular.
Yfis
Mark

[RayBoles]

If you try to make a family from crosses, you first breed b-s to see if they are good enough to continue.

[OldAl]

Alright that is what i am doing the pullet looks like the cock and the stag loooks like the hen next year i will pen to gether they were hatched last year and are in a slight molt right now.Only going to give it a try because I dont have these families only the RH cock and Kelso hen and the off spring were exceptional if it does not pan out I will just continue to make the cross till they are gone.Thanks Mr. Boles

[OldAl]

And if they are good after the the bro sis mating do I make another bro sis or put them back on the cock and hen.I was going to try both if I like them well enough.I will probably go back to the RH and Kelso and line breed unless I am able to select bro sis again.

[OldAl]

I searched and see that you recommend two bro sis mating in a row I will read it tomorrow and see what all I can find on the subject.Thanks.

[RayBoles]

Fact: Hybrid, is the scientific word for mongrel or cross. Crossing will lead to out crossing depression after the 1st generation.

[RayBoles]

JC , I apologize for an earlier post where I referred to you as JD. Just caught it.

[RayBoles]

The two r-h in the picture look like clones, do they not! Could I sell them as pure? Sure, because they look the same. But they have not been breed close enough and long enough to have a high IC, and the same traits. If they don't have the same traits, they don't deserve to be breed.

[Sweater_Breeder]

I acquired some asils from Jerry back in 99. I infused them into some George Lay Sweater. The asils I got from Jerry produced large fowl. They cocked out 5lbs pkus when pure. Good strong fowl. Game. I fought some stags pure at 13 mos. They even throw a decent shuffle from time to time. Crossed on Georges sweaters they were as good as any Ive owned. Ray didnt you at one time get your asils from a guy named Manasco? I could be confusing names. I know dewayne manasco used to have some. I obtained some of Rays sweater around 2000 or so through my son who got them from you direct. I crossed those onto George Lay Lacy. Good in sk back when we could. I only maintain my Lay sweater and lacys now due to my health I had to cut back. You still up on the mountain near carbon hill ray?

[gaff]

For those like myself trying to educate themselves on better breeding in threads like
"Elementary Genetics" and
"Brother Sister breeding update,
You will find some good posts, particularly by Ray Boles on this thread,
Bump!

[bullett]

Well boys those pictures posted above of those 2 white legged birds should disspell a bunch of those old foggedy ass myths???????????? Preached by those old timers what happened to those old myths about short leggs and they will get smaler??????????????????????? They appear pretty well built to me and ol yea ive never owned a sweater in my life

[gamecock96]

If you try to make a family from crosses, you first breed b-s to see if they are good enough to continue.

You could only breed them brother sister if you have both. Most of the time, i have read and i have seen people buying winners to introduce to their fowls....

Al

[RayBoles]

Mark , seems you are getting the message.

[sucess gamefarm]

If you try to make a family from crosses, you first breed b-s to see if they are good enough to continue.


then from here where do you go? Line breed?

[gaff]

then from here where do you go? Line breed?
Success from what I've read, you'll take an exceptional BS offspring and breed to his sister again. I understand that you can now breed these offspring to your first offspring from your first BS, if they are good. Note that are not using the original BRother and sister that you started with(the hybrid pair) but using their children and grandchildren to breed among each other.

Extreme caution needs to be given in selecting as you are going to get more of what you select for. If there is something in there you don't like it's going to be more prominent in the offspring. This is the way I understand it.

Mr Ray goes four generations BS before breeding them to other generations of brother sister.

I got it like that. Open to correction.

Yfis.

[RayBoles]

If I breed back it is for battle fowl. Breeding does not make them better, I can produce more fowl this. I have breed B-S for 22 generations. I have not breed back in several years. Why would I breed back and lower my IC if I was breeding to increase homozygousity. You can breed in any direction you want, it is a matter of what you are trying to create, that dictates the direction you take.