October 19th, 2005, 10:16 AM
Bobby Boles' Fowls 101
The following notes were extracted from Just Jack's emails to me and there will be a test after the class:
Bole's Blacks, Brewer Blacks, or Brass Backs. Ruben and I have the breeding notes and original letters from ther breeders like Bowdouin in Texas who shipped Bob the Fardown cock. He was a coal black and his saddles and sickles were so long they dragged the ground-a very Sumatra like trait. He was the greatest cutting cock Bob ever saw-had won 5 fights for Bowdouin and Bob fought him 6 more times.. because he didn't trust his gameness. Bob bred him to every hen on the place and line bred back to him from his old BB hen line. ( I got 2 cocks from Bob at 2 different times from this line-great cutters both). This cock's blood went into the "big nick". Les also told me that Bob just told him the BB's were Warhorses. That's not what he told me when I helped him purge them for 3 days on 2 different occasions. I new the old man, Mr. Hoover, from Ill. or Ind., a warhorse breeder. They didn't come from him. Bob said they were bred by RL Sanders in Ala. the Brown-Red Leopard breeder. They were known as the Derry/Wall fowl and Sanders bred them for Col. Brewer i.e. the Brewer Blacks. They were a black Irish/Claiborne or Baltimore topknot cross-hence (Irish Fardown/Irish whitehackle or Derby/and Spanish. The Claibornes were arguably the greatest cocks of the 1800's in every clime and weapon in America and only later surpassed by their cross on the Back Irish fowl which cross made the Warhorses-Bobby said. Bobby ordered and fought and bred these fowl from Sanders. They were mostly black-toppy fowl. They called them the black death cocks-like the Negro Mora's the Pirate whipped Britan's best with--Bobby got cocker of the year in Calif. with them before he ever put oriental in them- they were good but not great like their grades-the big nicks. Bobby sometimes refered to these BB hens as black claiborne hens. ( At about this same time Dabby Boles had partnered up with Bill Vizzard in Cal.-they were fighting a toppy/grey/oriental cross very succesfully-later known as the Vizzard greys and Pete Mckinley greys in Ne.:and, a cross of one of these cocks back to Claiborne hens in Utah known as the George Rice greys that went into the fowl known as the Kansas City Toppies-the best cutting fowl on the major circuit , according to Bobby. One year Bobby got down to one old brewer black hen and an 8 time winning black death cock-a smooth headed one. Ever since he bred to that pair he lost the toppy in them. When he called Sanders to get more, Sanders said he didn't have them anymore. Col. Brewer's feeder didn't like him and cold-cocked him with a replacement broodcock one year. When he found out about it it was too late as he always gave the BB's the same mark so didn't know the good ones from the bad ones -so killed them all. That's why Bob was looking for new blood when he used the Fardown cock and a Sid cock-both of which were bred down to less than 1/64 th in the BB's. ( Denis Drown and I crossed the BB's on Albany and Mug in Idaho in the 70's and won everything including the Big 8 cock in Utah).
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October 19th, 2005, 10:23 AM
The Big Nick
The Japanese gardener (source of the Jap cock from Utah) and Dr. Barrick-from whom the old family aseel hen's bloodlines came didn't fight cocks. The aseels were used in University research for breeding immunity to western Fowl Paralysis in domestic fowl breeds like Brahma was being used in cattle.This family of aseels ( McCoy) throws occasional crooked breasts and has several distinguishing features other aseel families don't have. Doug Hughes says Bobby told him that the Aseels used were the pair that Capt. Abercrombie flew in to Hill Air force base from India. They did use them like several other orientals over the years; but , they didn't go into the big nick or into the fowl they called the " old family aseels" that were line bred for years to the 0ld aseel hen from that original Jap stag that was the daddy of the Boxwood cocks-the best mating the Boles ever made. Bobby said they never found another oriental family that graded so well. He rated the Bombays from Bill Cataneo second best ( that went into the Cobras). They came dirty footed and came several colors from white to red to black. Bobby gave me one of these old cocks from Cataneo that was a dark red spangle that threw 2 white daughters and son's. (Some of his old families threw whites now and then but not blacks. The aseels Abshire got were a black trio that Bobby let him pick. Bob said he never let anyone but me have the PURE old family ASEELS or BLACKS; and, that he did me a favor by killing them all before he went into the hospital and had to let Stan take care of the birds. Stan told me he crossed a black cock he took from Bobbies on Mingus Doms and Manziel sids. Ruben bought some when he went to see Bobby in hospice untill he died. He brought them back for me with the 30 some grade cocks and 5 dom colored BB's that Susan called me to get. Those blacks from Stan were awfully mean manfighters-not like the Boles BB's that are dog gentle-I disposed of them all. I did keep "Backstabber" and "Black Bart" Two of the best aces Bobby ever bred. I've bred them since 1997. Black Bart is an exceptional breeder. That is not, however, the best way to produce battle cocks-which are 1/2 oriental- 1/2 BB. Black Bart is the 7 time winner shown in Bobbies video. He was a 15 time winner and in the keep again when Bobby died.
October 19th, 2005, 10:26 AM
Bobby at one time liked Les Melville; but, never talked to him again , even on the phone after the 70's after Les sold and let out some of Boles' 1/2 bloods-A Boles oriental cock Bobby bred to a Les Melville Atkinson aseel hen; and, a black aseel hen that Steve Peart brought back from India.( I had this hen for a while in Boise because Steve thought her eggs wouldn,t hatch-they were round like golf balls). Bob split the offspring with Les. Les bred them together but sold offspring to everyone (including me) and to breeders that fought at Bobbies pits-even-against Bob's and Les's aggreement to not let them out.( I let Martin Ytuarte- breed these plus an original old family hen in Idaho for me in the 70's. Marty is a good breeder. He doesn't have that old line, but has a family of black aseels that he says are really good for crossing on his family of black Irish fowl. I used to tell him a lot of things Bobby told me about breeding the grades.). I'll reply to your other email concerning who got fowl directly or indirectly from Bobby or Clarence and explain why only Doug Hughes and I could have fowl with over 1/8 Boles old family oriental or BB in them.
Bobby did not send Sam any fowl. I took the pair of Aseels from Bob to Sam's to make the cross on Sam's Japs-but Sam had already crossed Flynt Cobra on them so I took the aseels home and bred them here. The BB hen I left Sam was one of mine out of my 1972 Boles purge stock. Doug did not get any hens from Boles. He got 17 stags from the Backstabber mating-3/8 aseel-5/8 BB. Doug did not get any of Sam's Forsythe japs (the same Jap family acquired from the Japanese gardener) when Sam sold out because he didn't want any Jap blood. Robbie White got only one grade cock from Bobby at the pit because he'd fought a sick cock and Bob didn't want to take him home. Robbie got a dom hen from Augie Trujillo in Goleta that he thought was a camouflaged Boles BB hen. Les traded Robbie out of this hen with some Aseels. Robbie was crossing those aseels on his Kelsos when he died. Those are the aseels Claypoole and Mac White got-I know- I was there. They are not Boles aseels and couldn't have more than 1/16 of Boles 1960 aseel brood cock in them. Like Bobby said, "Thank God I didn't give Les any of my hen line. You can't reproduce fowl without the hen line,he said.
I don't know why Sam would have told you this (referring to jalisquillo’s post). It is not true and he knows it. Doug told me himself that he got no hens from Bobby-which Bobby also told me. Sam has no fowl-he sold out in 1991 and even brought me his Cobra Aseel broodcock to take care of. Jesse Jorta had the stolen trio of aseels from Bobby in 1969-He bought them from the thief and told me at Copperstate to tell Bobby he could have them back for the $1000 he paid for them. My father built a FEED SERVICE CO plant in Madera in 1953 and hired Bob and Susan's good friend John Simonette to manage it. I worked there and stayed with Bob and Susan during school vacations from Idaho and Utah because I liked the chickens so much and they had no children. Bob always said I'd get his fowl after he retired.-justjack
October 19th, 2005, 11:15 AM
Thanks so much for sharing that information man.
October 19th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Ferdi, I have to use the mapquest just to follow your very informative write up of the Bobby Boles Asils. Its very facinating to know how the Oriental Asils contributed to the modern day gamefowls. Keep on sharing the history. Thanks-Ed
October 19th, 2005, 08:19 PM
can I just ask you who is the Jack who sent you this email?
October 19th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Everyone should refrain from using the source's legal names. There's a legal injunction on using "his" name in print in connection with any fighting or gamefowl and he will sue anyone who does it. That's why the name " Just Jack" was used in any of his published articles. This is to protect our friends who can greatly contribute in the survival of this sport.
Good question bro, but his name will not be in the test.
And if anyone has used his name on any thread, then kindly edit it out - please.
October 19th, 2005, 09:04 PM
nice post! informative though thanks!
another history from another author
keep them coming
October 19th, 2005, 10:12 PM
oh ok...no problem..thanks
October 20th, 2005, 12:02 AM
fascinating, fascinating! this is the story to have been told. mystery almost unfolded. just jack confessions seems to be most credible of all. let it roll. in the end, would you post pictures from just jack this time for posterity sake?
by the way jack's identity was mentioned in either steelgame.com or gamefowl.com. maybe someone ought to tell the poster.
October 20th, 2005, 04:41 AM
What I have to say is not intended for you personaly but towards Jack Holland.
First off, everybody that knows him, says that he is as full of sh*t as they come.
I have talked with almost everybody who's names were brought up.
I have talked with Doug Hughs a few different times. As a matter of fact I talked with him today.
Doug's Asils are starting to throw a few slate legs due to being bred a bit tight. So, I asked Doug to ship me a slate legged pullet to breed with a pure BOLES cock that I received from Les. She will be here tomarrow.
Anyways, Doug's exact words were, Jack is a big bull-sh*ter. Call doug your self & ask him. Call any of these people and ask them.
Les said that he is a lieing Bast*rd. Exact words. Les said he will put a few things to paper tonight. I will post it as soon as I receive it.
Anybody that knows Sam Gowdy will tell you that he is an honest of a guy that you will meet. Jack is trying to make it look like Sam is lieing. SHAME ON YOU.
Everybody that knows Les will tell you that he does not sell fowl. There are a very select few that have gotten fowl from him. Ask anybody. So, that crap about Les selling fowl to people around where bobby fought is a big lie as well. I know Les better than that. You just don't get fowl from him & he has plenty of money so he has no need to sell.
Also I have been told that the Boles/Melvill blend were and are, as good, if not better producers than the Boles or the Melvills.
I have talked to Martin Ytuarte a few different times & he told me that he got them from Les direct & still has them. He even said that Les let him come over & walk thru & pick a cock from Les's personal brood pens. That is how I got two of my Asil brood cocks. I picked them right out of Les's brood pens. Les confirmed this.
Anyways, I don't care who you are or where you got you Asils from. Now is now & not then & I know where the best Asils in the world are right now. I will prove it any time. So, anybody who wants to put it to the test, call me. Especially you Justjack.
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October 20th, 2005, 04:52 AM
October 20th, 2005, 05:14 AM
October 20th, 2005, 05:29 AM
your the man,..always there to enlightened people up,a revelation.tanggal ang lagnat ko,wala na ba kasunod?explosive mate:rbounce:
btw what is the price for getting all the right answers in the test?
October 20th, 2005, 06:09 AM
At one time I read the FEATHERED WARRIOR about les melville,misappropriating some cockers funds ? Did any one here at all knows whats that all about?
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thanked for this post
October 20th, 2005, 08:06 AM
Sabong.NET Derby 2010
I also have boles black from the late speaker Mitra.
They are good cutter sometimes win and sometimes loss
But they will give you good fight
October 20th, 2005, 08:30 AM
skin deep? nahhhhhhhh...this is getting into the bones...lets wait and see..."truth is out there and it will set you free."..:lol:
October 20th, 2005, 09:17 AM
another twist. i am keeping an open mind. good call C.
October 20th, 2005, 09:46 AM
how exciting this thread is! post more info please... love to hear more!
October 20th, 2005, 10:21 AM
Folks this thread is going nowhere fast. There are emotions involve in this matter beyond our control and it's going to get out of control from here on out. The name calling is just going to get worse and everyone is waiting for something to go OFF. These old cockers have a lot of history behind them and they are great breeders of our time, maybe of all times. Most of us were probably in our diapers or not even born when they were at the very top of their game. They were good/best friends at one time. They must have fought birds besides each other and look at them now. Which brings me to this point of the "BIG QUESTION". Why did Bobby Boles try to kill all his birds? Now, you know why. His friends' own egos must have reached a point where it's so big that it overtook the values of their friendship. These same guys could have ruled the cocking world if they were fighting their birds together instead of against each other. Of course, this is just my evaluation of the current situation and somebody might have another theory but it is my best guess. Maybe, just maybe, Bobby Boles should have been successful in his quest to destroy all his birds.
colt39, there was no malice intended and I was just relaying the info to the fraternity so that they can have a view of the other side of the coin. I think that everyone has seen each side of the story and if I pass this along, then all I'm going to get is more fingerpointing. I don't think that my heart can take all this high blood pressure. Can yours?
October 20th, 2005, 10:34 AM
Nanding that's a piece of good info my friend...
Thanks for sharing....
your buddy here...
October 20th, 2005, 10:55 AM
really informative post
seem some people taking personally
albiet if there is something fabricated, so let the other side
anyway keep going brothers so that others will enligthen
October 20th, 2005, 10:58 AM
Boles aside, thanks for reminding me to take my blood pressure medicine!
October 20th, 2005, 11:19 AM
BLOOD PRESSURE'S GO HIGH..MELLOW THEM DOWN BOYS..WERE NO LONGER BOYS..WERE MAN ENOUGH TO KEEP OUR TEMPER DOWN PEACEFUL NEGOTIATIONS.
THERE IS HALF TRUTH AND HALF LIES IN EVERY STORY. THE WHOLE TRUTH IS ON THE PERSON ITSELF.
KEEP ON COCKING!
NOW WE HAD TWO SIDES OF THE COIN. YESTERDAY ITS ONLY THE EAGLES SIDE. NOW ITS THE HUMAN SIDE.
WELL. BE THANKFUL ITS A COIN AND NOT A BALL:lol:
October 20th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Taking it personally.
The only thing I take personal is people getting personal.
When some one flat azz lies about a friend, I take it personal.
The whole shame of it is, there are some facts in there that would help in the qwest to get some history. The lies were not needed in there.
Every thing I have posted is as close to the truth as I can get. Les is my friend & to my knowlege has not lied. Just do not think becausae of that, I will sway the truth because if you do, then you don't know me very well. I call around & talk to all of these old timers & take into consideration what each have to say befor I post anything.
Do you all want to know the truth. Should I sit back & let this thread go with half truths & lies.
Anybody who wants to know the truth I can get you to people that don't have to lie about all of this.
Also just got off the phone with Mac White. Mac said that he got his asils direct from Les. You say that he got them from Robby, and you were there. That is the farthest thing from the truth as well. How could you be there when Mac got them from Les direct & you were no where around.
Ferdi, I agree with one thing, I, like you belive that Bobby did kill them all because of people around him. When you are on top of the world, you have a lot of so called friends.
Also I am not mad at you for posting his e-mails, I am not mad at all. I just will not sit back and let the lies go along with this thread.
All he would have had to do is put all this together with out the BS & I would have stayed out of it.
I, like my friend Buhawi, will defend a friend if he is wronged. Especially when he is not around to defend him self.
So, don't take my word for this, call these guys your selves & see what they have to say.
October 20th, 2005, 12:39 PM
huh! what's next!? another story teller or history writer anybody?
nyah . . . just joking. we're learning. keep on comin !cheers! :rbounce:
October 20th, 2005, 12:48 PM
bobby boles ASIL
check out THE GAMECOCK MAGAZINE, there was a story about bb's asil. and it was like got out of hand, BIG TIME DRAMA.
October 20th, 2005, 01:23 PM
This thread is getting more exciting and educational and so with being contradictional to the other thread.
October 20th, 2005, 02:37 PM
Its not supposed to excite you.......it is supposed to educate you.
I have been doing research on the subject of B. Bole's asils for a while and I know whom to believe concerning their whereabouts now.
Soon...........soon.............my quest will be finished. Hopefully as early as next month.
October 20th, 2005, 08:43 PM
Some notes I've jotted down that could be some interest to someone. They might not be accurate but it's information nonetheless.
The Asil cock died after the first year leaving only the Jap cock for breeding. Bobby bred the Jap cock to the Asil hen to produce his oriental family. The Great Nick was the 3/4 Asil 1/4 Jap. Ed Flynt's Cobra were stolen stuff from Bobby.
The greatest nick that Bobby ever bred was the cross between the Jap cock on his BB hens. These were called the "Boxwood" cocks. 44 wins and 0 losses. Bobby never bred the crosses.
These cocks were stolen and ended up in Blondi’s place. Blondi sold these cocks. Bobby, Clarence and Stan took a Jap cock and put him in the pit. They sparred him in the muffs and ran off in front of a crowd. So the word got around that the stolen birds were cold blooded. Somebody's customer must have had fits after this scandal was over.
Cockers were trying NOT to meet with Bobby’s birds in the same weight class. And most are smaller than Bobby’s birds. Bobby tried all sorts of experiment to bring down their size. He bred them with Spanish, Small Japs (Chibi), and even a Red Quill Banty. He realized that he wasted a lot of time and should have just stuck to the original nick.