What are your opinions regarding the statement of Richard Bates that "I DONT BELIEVE IN BLOODLINES".
What are your opinions regarding the statement of Richard Bates that "I DONT BELIEVE IN BLOODLINES".
maybe richard base his criteria on selection thru fighting style and pit performance.
The late master breeder also Frank Shy doesn't believe in Bloodline. Bloodline is just a name. THey breed base on fighting style and pit performance.
I agree with pitgods, all the old time breeders, based their breeding on outstanding roosters. Regardless of bloodline, they would buy, beg, or borrow a cock and infuse it. One in particular, W.A. Kelso. fis
bloodlines...are my guidelines as to style and characteristics...i
study my competition...and breed the best to the best for my battlefowls...if i win ...i cruise...until the time that i need to go back to the drawing board...
Do not breed and rely on breed names like Hatch, Kelso, Lacy, Murphy, and the list goes on. These people been dead years ago lol. You breed through INDIVIDUALS and its make up. People rely too much on these breed names instead of concentrating on that particular INDIVIDUAL and its make up that you like. The late Robbie White, Tom Dale, Johnny Jumper to name a few employed this tactics and were all successful in their own rights. A person takes a chance when obtaining fowl from a breeder because you are buying the honesty of the breeder. Some will treat you right, some won’t. But relying on breed names only because someone said to breed this bloodline is just wishful thinking. Learn and have a thorough knowledge of the family background complete with records if you can as a prime essential on your breeding program. INDIVIDUALITY, ancestry, performance and progeny testing must all be taken into consideration. Your ultimate success as the breeder in your quest for improvement depend not only on your skill in selection but upon the judicious mating of both individuals and the general understanding of the systems of breeding used.
I AGREE WITH KOGMOHON. BLOODLINES ARE GUIDELINES OF
A CERTAIN GAME CHICKENS.
JUST IMAGINE IF YOU LIKE COFFE, SALT IS WHITE, SUGAR IS
WHITE, MSG IS WHITE. WITH OUT THOSE LABELS ONE OF THOSE
3 EXAMPLES YOU MAY PUT IN YOUR COFFE
NO MATTER WHAT BLOODLINE, ALL OF THEM ARE GOOD.
Yeah, going along Pitgod's post, I suggest you try getting Frank "Narragansett" Shy's three books w/c you can get from Marburger publishing, Hartford Arkansas-publisher of The Gamecock magazine
- Modern Breeding of Gamefowl
- Conditioning the Gamecock for Battle
- Best of Narragansett
All accounts based on this highly successful breeder - cocker who unselfishly divulged priceless info prior to his passing on-(had the most wins in the Claymor tournaments if I have it right-the best of the best so to speak).
These books are worth their weight not only in Gold but something more precious even than diamonds-will make you think twice in using those breed names indeed...kudos also to Richard who reinforces these principles (can't argue with success can we!!!)
Thanks Unico, Can you give me the website or phone on where to get those books?
PM'd the details - don't want it to seem like an advertisement campaign here on the open forum.
Just pass it on to anyone who professes interest in them in the forums.
All the best.
i think bloodlines is somewhat a history of a certain family of chickens bred by a certain person way way back.
because if you don't know where they have been you will not know where you will be headed in your future breeding.
it is really important to know the history of the chickens that you will acquire.
if you don't know it is just like a "Shotgun" (Hit or Miss) approach to Breeding Gamefowls.
this is my own opinion regarding Bloodlines.
bloodline is the most important foundation for every breeding program. Those who doesn't agree won't last long in this business.
For example, due to too much inbreeding, your fowls will tend to run, then what will you do? you have to infuse game blood into them. If you don't have the idea and breed by assumption then you will produce more dunghills in your farm that is very costly.
another example is if your fowls are rusher and too game. you need to put some dunghill blood into them for them to evade blows from the opponent.
you see, we need bloodlines to pursue our needs and goals. Unless you want your breeding program to last only for three -four years?
unico can you relay to me also the details of this nagransett to my pm. thanks
Just like Unico and Pitgods, I think Richard Bates bred for a certain sets of standard. Just like Frank Shy, he don't care what you call his fowl just as long it passed his sets of standard of performance and they win. Breeding is a succession, maintaining those sets of standard and the win........
to start with , there are really no pure fowl meaning the "bloodlines" of today are a conglomeration of so many extraordinary and proven individual fowl who pass on their good traits.
how were these best individuals identified and later on bred until
uniformity in reference to the traits of an extraordinary individual fowl are achieved within a family?
it's because of keen, eagle eyed, "surgical" attention to detail each time they select those which they would continue to breed from those fowl that they would rather have for dinner. not to mention testing these fowls in the toughest pits and the biggest
Mr.Richard Bates is a Master every which way you look at it so for him,selecting a fowl that is a keeper and a producer of pitburners is a dandy regardless what blood or bloods are in that fowl.
just my 10 cents.:blush:
we have to respect richard's opinion. he's successful with the way he breeds his chickens. but he holds in high regard johnny jumper - the very well respected breeder who believes in bloodlines. richard also believes in billy ruble, another living legend who believes in bloodlines, and keeping them "pure". the late steve sturm was highly regarded by his peers as being one of the best. he too believed in bloodlines, and keeping them pure. their "tulsa" entry has racked up a lot of trophies. dan gray also believes in bloodlines. i guess this is the reason why our sport is so exciting. because nobody can really say for sure who is correct or not. in this sport of ours, as well as in many other endeavors, i have learned that nobody can compartmentalize things in explaining in your winning and or losing a fight. just do what you think is right. as for me, bloodlines count a lot. i accept though that there may be outstanding individuals in every family. my opinion.
it does not matter whether you breed by bloodlines or
by performance as long as you are winning to the level
you're showing your fowls and happy at it. your on the
right tract :lol:
Point of clarification...
What is actually being referred to here is not merely the lineage but the way we have adhered to using so called "breed names" and attaching them largely to accepted physical characteristics such as green-leg reds - "Hatch", Yellow leg red-"Sweater", etc.etc....and we tend to say or beleive that we indeed are maintaining named bloodlines well in fact leg or feather colour patterns are not true to type anymore.
Record keeping is indeed key, and as a known breeder has said""if ones fowl doesn't have a history, they wuill never have a future" - no ytruer words. But to me this means knowing who the mom and pops are, who the grand sdady, Grand moms are and so forth and so on to know the extent of inbreeding our to which exact pair a line has been bred from but I guess it is a misnomer to use breednames as originated since the basic or "patented" ingredient and method of breeding used say as an example in making of Sanford Hatch fowl has been altered already.
I am amazed at how we have been discussing sweaters in a lot of threads here, but if you stop and look, an average cocker might be claiming to have one and another saying he has a claret or kelso or toundhead that looks like a full brother.
Another is White Claret-there shouldn't be since Claret is a red wine which is why the it was used to nam the RED fowl. If we go futher in the real breeding Mcoy w/c is the gentic makeup of these fowl, 1000% sure the genes of the old time claret will be different than the clarets of today.
I'm quite sure this will spark a longer thread length but yes, we're all welcome top voice our opinions. Be it clear that I am not negating what others think otherwise.
All the best.
The word "pure" sells more chickens . Most everyone who inquires about my fowl ask for a pair or trio of my "pure" so and so . Thats just the reality of the market .
But just do your research and see who wins the most . Richard Bates is a good example , the top competitors breed for pit performance . Always have and always will .
Carol NeSmith is another good example . It's hard to find someone who has accomplished more than him . Do you think his famous sweaters are "pure" ? Wrong . They are a blend of several different bloodlines from top breeders . Yes , if you buy sweaters from him you have the right to call them "pure" NeSmith sweaters but when you ask about their makeup you'll learn they are blended several ways . And theres nothing wrong with that .
I believe you'll get better brood fowl from a breeder if you ask him to mate you a pair that is suited for your style of competition and don't even ask for a certain bloodline . This way you're not going to limit him to a certain group of his fowl , you'll more than likely get better quality individuals if you ask the breeder to pick them for you .
I had a guy visit my farm this year who swore up and down that a sweater/albany stag I showed him was a pure possum sweater because of his looks . I told him he could take him and call him a pure sweater if he'd like , he thought he knew my fowl better than I did . Give me a break . My point is , breed quality individuals on both sides and you'll end up with quality offsprings .
The breeder knows his fowl better than you do . If you are going to trust him enough to shell out your hard earned dollar , let him pick them out for you . If he's honest , you'll get what you paid for .
Do your research on the breeder himself and not his birds . An honest breeder wants you to succeed with his birds . A chicken peddler wants your money .
By the way , this is not an attempt to try and convince you to buy my fowl . I'm sold out this year and don't care if I sell another feather . I'm telling you beginners like it is but I know you wont listen to my advise . That is also a reality . "Pure" brood fowl will always be in demand . And you'll pay for that four letter word .
I have to agree the word "pure" increase the value of the fowl.
hi ellis / kakmeyts
well said ... and true to the core .... the thread started, by referring to " why r. bates, breeds based on performance, than based on bloodlines or name-after breedline " ... r. bates, a veteran breeder, knows what exactly what he is doing ... since performance wins not by any other name ... however, beginners like us, often fall into a trap of following bloodline breeding because, majority of breeders, sources of our breeding materials, peddled that way, and also that is what often seen during bigtime mains, commentators often referred to bloodlines, to add color and excitement ... so when an impressive fowl wins, with referred name, it will be remembered and every wannabe will look for the same bloodline, ... as if be able to duplicate ...or hopefully ... so this becomes a tricky question ... which comes first, a bloodline name followed with performance ... or performance first, followed by bloodline name .... wannabe ... will have to seek info and analyze, ... since, going to a certain bloodline... also helps in the breeding process ( less experimentation ) ... and on the other hand, on performacne base, though needs which one to infuse ( finding a nick ) ..requires an eye of veteran breeder ...or say, who develops an "eye for a winner" ... then one can call it, by a name of his choice ... ( just like what, was mentioned, the breeder knows the make-up of his lines, and often keep it to himself )..
if rb does'nt believe in bloodlines, well that's to his contention.
that might be the breeding regimen that worked well with him
and in so doing, never cared which cock is coming from which
lines. but i'm pretty sure, he got it from the myriad lines he had,
selecting only the most outstanding in a family and never looked
for any other else. most of us succombed to this practice but
majority will still uphold the bloodline source!
consider this.....if you don't have the materials, how will you
visit my site:
i don't believe that rb doesn't look for bloodlines but pick more of performance. You mean to say if there are native chicken that performs well he will include that in his breeding program?
All breeders should refer to bloodlines, if not, acquired their fowls from good source, as in those who referred to them.
You should know how to differentiate between a dunghill blood and a game blood, before you start a breeding program. Otherwise, you are doomed to fail.
In the early 90's, I fought against Richard Bates in a 4 cock derby in Roligon and he had a cock that ran. I read somewhere in a local mag, late 90's, he also had a cock that ran which cost him the championship. Even though Richard had fowls that ran, he was tough all through the years. His fowls were fast and furious. With his experience, that's how he think and feels about it......
Show me a cocker that tells you that he NEVER had a cock run or a wheeler and I will show you either someone that has only shown a few cocks, or a liar. Even the gamest roosters sometimes get a feather in their throat, or a head shot and they will run like a cat with it's ass rubbed raw with a corn cob and sprayed with turpentine!!
You know what I mean friend..........Prospero Año to you.
Yes, even Bobby Boles had cocks that ran when he started using japs. Mitra's fowls were very good when he had a cock that ran. Maybe it's better when you have a smart thinking bird, but maybe not the gamest? I don't know, to each his own? :hippie:
Thats where we should get into the discussion of culling .
You show me someone who fights every single cock he raises each year and I'll bet this person will have a low winning % .
Some stags will just never develop mentally . You'll find these crazy stags in every breed . The more you inbreed a line , the harder you'll have to cull through them .
I have a 9 month old yl hatch / roundhead stag now that i'm going to have to cull . He's built right and is a beautiful bird but he just hasn't matured like he should have . He still won't fight , even after 2 months in the hardening pen with a pullet . I put him out on a tie cord hoping he'd come out of it but he hasn't . He won't roost on top of the tee pee , when I feed he wont run to his food like the other stags do . He'll just stand there with this wild eyed look . He stays scared to death all the time . Now , I'd bet you a plugged nickel that a beginner would be more tolerant with this bird . He'd look over this craziness and in a few months i'm sure this bird would start showing and he'd think everything is fine . But when it's time for him to fight , and he's in a stressful situation with people all around him hollering and he has a "game" rooster in front of him that has the want to , it wouldn't suprise me to see this bird turn tail and squoke for his mama .
Is that the breeders fault ? No ! It's your fault for feeding him and bringing him to the pit . The signs are all there . He's a cull and that's all there is to it .
Cull hard whenever you see these signs and you'll start showing birds that have the want to when the going gets tough . It's been at least 10 years since I've shown a runner in the pit and that's the truth . May have one to quit this year since I said that .
Some birds will fool you too . They'll mature like they should , they'll have a perfect pheotype . Built right and mentally sound as a stag , spar like a champion . Then when he goes through the moult he'll get crazy . He isn't right mentally either . These are the toughest ones to cull . You've fed him for almost 2 years and he impressed you as a stag so it's easy for a beginner to over look this . He's just sick from the moult they'll say . And he is , but if he hacks up for more than a week or so and you take him to the pit and he turns tail and runs ...... that's your fault too . You should have known better and at least shown him at a brush pit or backwoods hack fight first . I'm not saying to cull all your cocks that hack during the molt , just be cautious with them . Make them prove themselves in your backyard first . You wont lose any money that way and if he does run , he wont be doing it in front of everyone .
I've read that Bobby Boles fought through his birds before they ever went to the pit . I'll bet that what I've said above is the reason why . I know alot of well known cockers who show at Sunset regularly . Do you think they show unproven birds there ? No ! Their reputation is at stake and a big chunk of money too . They'll show their birds at small pits first , and trust me , they don't win anymore than the small time locals do with them . But when they do find their aces , they'll put them back for the big show . And when you see them at Sunset they'll have a show of proven aces and you'll think this man has the best birds you've ever seen .
I fell for this years back . Saw a show of butcher/greys at Sunset that was as impressive as any I've ever seen before . This man from Tennessee had won cocker of the year at Sunset more than once and I just had to have a trio bred the way those cocks were , drove up to Tennessee and this man helped me pick out a trio that would produce the same battle cocks as he showed . Paid $1000 for them and I was happy . In a few years I'd be mowing them down just like he did . Wrong . These birds produced the rankest dunghills I've ever seen . Some of them wouldn't even fight at two years old . I stuck with them because of where they came from but they never produced anything good at all . I didn't know any better then , but I do now . A dunghill is a dunghill......I don't care where he came from . And a man who tells you he's never had any of his birds to sull or hack in the molt , ever ...... well , I think you know where I'm going with this . I've got one family of blacks that I've never seen sull in the pit , one out of many that I've had . And I think highly of them . They've been bred from pit winners and have been solid for 8 years now . One of my brood cocks out of this family is now 6 years old and a 3 time winner . He's produced way above average offsprings for 4 years now . But he shocked me a couple months ago when he was in full molt . He hacked up on me for two days when I moved him from a pen to a tie cord . So now I can honestly say .....I've never had a family of fowl that I've never seen one hack . It took 8 years but it happened , and he'll be over a few of his daughters again this spring . Nuff said !
My cousin used to work as a VP for JAKA Industries, office at PanoMatch Building along pasong tamo, Makati. This is owned by Senator Enrile. Richard Bates holds office here also, i think he is a consultant for agriculture( not so sure on this). But my cousin is acquainted to RB and sometime in 1984, RB won one of the big time 8-cock derby at araneta. 2 of the surviving wounded cocks were given to my cousin. Both of them have L-44( Lady-44) wing band. 1 is a red, yellow leg, p-combed( RB calls this McCrae) and the other 1 is a red, white leg, straight comb and RB says is JJ Kelso. RB gave may cousin additional fowl; Trio of Robinson green legged red, a democrat gren-leg red cock, 2 McCrae hens, 2 JJ kelso hens, and a grey cock with geen legs. I remember RB telling my cousin, " you have all the bloodline to start your breeding, just give them good care."
My cousin gave me all this chicken because he has no interest on Sabong.
Now i don't know what he means when he said that quote, But how come he calls his fowl McCrae, Robinson, jj Kelso?......
Don't rely on the name of a bloodline but rather pick your fowl from their pit performance . Even if they're called yellow bellied coward dunghills , as long as they put the W's on the board .
I don't rely on the name of the bloodline but when buying fowl I do rely on the breeder's hardwork and his reputation.
Without this bloodlines they will be classified as tagalog, Mistiso and Texas.