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Thread: carbo loading?

  
  1. #31
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    corn is a very good feed for carbo loading or anything like oats, rice etc. as long as our rooster is used to it. The fact that we use it every day and our roosters are used to it guarantees that it will not upset their stomach or digestion on fight day.

    The most important thing is how to release their stored energy efficiently during the fight to perform well. No matter how much source they have if they can not use it efficiently, they will not perform to their full potential.

    Cockfighting is a combination type sport, both performance type (anaerobic) and aerobics. If the fight lasts less than two minutes, it is a performance sports. If it last more than two minutes, it will become a combination of performance and aerobics sports.

    The first two minutes of the fight is a very important key factor to consider during conditioning. This is where their fatal blows/cutting and fighting abilities are most needed and will usually determine the end result of the fight.

    The glycogen lactic acid biochemical system of the energy metabolic pathways phase that starts from 10 seconds up to around 90 seconds is the time when our roosters slows down due to lactic acid build up in their muscles that causes fatigue and aches. Lactic acid build up is caused by unmetabolized energy source pyruvic acid due to oxygen debt (oxygen is needed to burn fuel) and will be eventually recycled back to glycogen to be used again. This is comparable to a car's gasoline flooded engine, too much influx of energy source that can not be burned as quickly. This will only stabilize after two minutes when our birds starts panting (aerobic) and will start to regain momentum but the energy release is not as fast as in the anaerobic phase.

    If you see roosters fight in major circuit competition with speed and power all the way to the drag, most probably the conditioner or persons behind knows the trick. And of course not all secrets are shared.

  2. #32
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    how to avoid©©©©

    or prevent LACTIC ACID build-up?
    Any idea/s? B-15?

  3. #33
    Senior Member janrich's Avatar
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    Alex- thanks for the info, i'll take that into consideration.

    We are all learning alot from this thread.
    Thanks everyone for your shared info.

  4. #34
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    under varied condition, depending on our rooster's Lactic Acid threshold, they can only use from 6% to 30% of their potential energy source in the glycogen lactic acid biochemical system. If they can perform 100%, it is comparable to us running the 1000 meters like we are running the 100 meter dash. Like running it with all our force at top speed without slowing down all the way to the finish line.

    Oxygenation of the cells to burn fuel thru the help of vit. b12 and other b complex vitamins, iron, b15 or pangamic acid and all these nose and respiratory flushing, electrolyte ions and all that you can think of will help them in this lactic acid thing.

    Burning fuel needs oxygen. You can't burn them without it. But you can also burn fuel even with the smallest amount or almost no oxygen at all. Just like firing a gunpowder in the cartridge or dynamite sticks, gas tanks and methane gas explosions, etc. All you need to know is the the proper concoction and how to use it.

    The method is here and is used by quite a few especially in the major circuit competitions. But as I said earlier, not all the secrets are being shared to just anybody.

  5. #35
    spitfire_ace
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    :lol:

  6. #36
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    vl...i have the right fuel and the right engine...now where can i find the right driver?

    ethiopian athletes are dominating the long distance runs but the
    black african americans owned the short distances...how dya explain all that...

    ethiopian chickens are the fastest chicken bar none...people are
    starving there...

  7. #37
    spitfire_ace
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    This thread is getting more interesting...Thanks guys for sharing...

    Carboloading, as I look at it, if we keep the Hemoglobin UP means the Oxygen is UP as well....Oxygen is needed to burn those energy to be used by the body during intense activity...E.g. if your cock is anemic, he is listless, not interested to fight...etc...

    For those who want instant energy and keep the cock from being hypoglycemic during fight day, try dextrose powder...No weight gain, only pure energy....

    i hope i don't get you more confused...( sorry)..

  8. #38
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    now I'm confused. How do we keep the hemoglobin level up and how is it measured? As I understand all the healthy animals and humans have a normally satisfactory level of this to perform in their optimum level. And also we are not supposed to condition and carbo load anemic and sickly birds unless due to the uncontrollable gambling urge we are forced to do it because we don't have cocks to use anymore. What can you find in the dextrose powder that makes them an ideal fuel source and how is this fuel source converted to usable energy? What causes hypoglycemia?

    Is a little weight gain on fight day bad at all? And losing weight? All living animals continously or I would say alternately gain and loss weight in fraction of gram or in grams every short period of time in a day, (I don't mean losing weight due to excretion) only we don't notice it at all.

    Now which do you prefer, gaining a little or losing a little?

  9. #39
    hiroundhead
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    3 TYPES OF CARBOHYDRATES

    ''SIMPLE'' CARB such as glucose are compose of only one molecule of sugar, this one molecule is available almost instantly to our fowl as energy. ''COMPLEX'' CARB have dozens of sugar molecules bound together, bec. of the complexity of their structure they take longer to be broken down into simple sugar and absorbed into the blood stream.Because of this, complex carb ( also called starches ) supply a steadier, slower, stream of energy. THE ''INTERMEDIATE'' CARB are those found on fruit and HONEY and require little digestion- but , more so than GLUCOSE, and much less than ''COMPLEX'' STARCHES. THE ''INTERMEDIATE'' CARB which like GLUCOSE does not require a quick secretin of insulin by the fowl's body.( INSULIN is a hormone secreted by the PANCREAS GLAND to remove excess sugar from the blood ) bec. of this, ''INTERMEDIATE'' carb produce definite advantage in maintaining a steadier supply of energy! BY COMBINING ALL 3 TYPES OF CARBOHYDRATES A FASTER ACTING, AND LONGER LASTING EFFECT IS OBTAINED THAN WHEN A SINGLE CARBOHYDRATE SORCE IS USED!!!

  10. #40
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    V.....:rbounce: .....:rbounce: .....L

  11. #41
    amigo
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    don't stop now.................:rbounce: ...i like this thread...........:rbounce:

  12. #42
    Senior Member hope1126's Avatar
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    brown sugar

  13. #43
    Senior Member bna_talimbabaga's Avatar
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    energy production via anaerobic glycolysis in a very short period of an event increases the acidity inside muscle cells and so to the blood. this increase in acidity is a major factor in producing fatigue. there is one way to reduce acidity within the muscle cells to delay fatigue and continue exercising in an event at a very high intensity. using a neutalizer agent reduces the acidity of the blood known as buffering action. by buffering acidity in the blood the neutralizer maybe able to withdraw more acid produced within the muscle out into the blood and reduce the level of acidity within the muscle themselves. this could delay the onset of fatigue.

  14. #44
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    interesting...

    bna,

    if that's the case, what can we use or administer to our gamefowls to neutralize the acidity in their blood as you are specifiying? and what will be the impact on the gamefowl performance?

    getting very interesting isn't it?
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  15. #45
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    Glucose in our bloodstream and glycogen in muscles and liver are maintained at a certain level. No matter how much glucose you give to your chicken, the excess will be stored as glycogen and the excess in glycogen storage will be stored as fats. Storage is pretty much not a problem actually. The efficient burning of glucose converted from glycogen to minimize lactic acid build up and higly increase performance in the lactic acid glycogen system or glycolysis is the problem. Lactic acid is energy, unburned energy flooding the muscle system and they are converted back to glycogen to be used again.

    buffering agents will neutralize acidity in glycolysis but most are not fully effective and not practical to use. Calcium is a buffer agent but will not reach the cellular level to neutralize acidity in the muscle cells, and a very high dose of sodium bicarbonate is needed to work effectively. High enough to make our chickens uncomfortable and is proven to cause an upset stomach. Even before this concoction of sodium bicarbonate "milkshake" was banned in horse racing, horse racers already acknowledged the impracticality of its use due to this high doses that causes bloating in most cases. It was like a gamble, if they work effectively, they will have good results. If not, the result is a didaster. Up to the present a more effective and practical buffering agent is yet to be found.

  16. #46
    Senior Member juan sabungero's Avatar
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    anybody tried the latest craze in race horse carbo loading . . .
    heard its banned though in california they called it smoothy

  17. #47
    spitfire_ace
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    I've read somewhere that chickens have a HIGH BMR ...I'm not so sure but if somebody can confirm that chickens indeed have a high BMR that would be great...Thanks very much...

    From a beginner's point of view( I stand corrected on this and want some advice from the experts here..)I just want to know if I'm on the right track..

    If and only if, they have a High BMR-->needs high caloric intake--->On fight day,all sorts of stress are present, thus increases his BMR---> we want our cocks to be "on point" and stay "on point", so we're giving enegy-giving foods/ supplements--->to prevent them going over the hill and getting hungry. Hunger is an initial reaction from the body that we need more glucose(only if cocks can only tell us), if there's no external source of glucose, then they'll utilise the glycogen. If all the glycogen has been used up, next is the digestion of fats which resulted to building up of lactic acid, if not corrected, then--->metabolic acidosis sets in..We can restore the acid-base balance by giving NaHCO3 but the cock has been wasted( over the hill),...Prevention is the key...This is only in relation to the use of glucose in pointing the cock before the fight.

    When the fight starts, they'll use up all their energy, their luck and what not, we're not allowed to handle the cocks and stop the fight and give NaHCO3 in between fights to correct all the acidosis...And this is long knife fighting, the Quick and the dead, 'ika nga....

    :hippie:

    If somebody can discuss, the role of hormones and the enzymes, stimulants, etc.. during stress, e.g. like the fight and flight reaction, that would be great....

  18. #48
    buster
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    carboloader!

  19. #49
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    Another Carbo Loader:

  20. #50
    tisoynj27@yahoo
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    carbo loader

    deym this thread is pretty interesting. brings out the chemistry in me. I am a chemistry major also and so far everything is well said. I am not familiar with the roosters metabolism though. in addition to that you dont wanna reach gluconeogenesis because this may have a detrimental efect on the muscular tissues of the cock. this happens when u deplete the available resources of glucose and turn to proteins to turn them into glucose. produces ketones in the process too which may not be that healthy to gamefowls

  21. #51
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    CARBOLOADING©©©

    I experimented with carbo powder¥used by my son before his work-out¤ with my rooster©©©result: NO GOOD©©©IT MESSED-UP THEIR DIGESTIVE SYSTEM¥DIARHEA/LVM¤©

  22. #52
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    My analysis so far from this thread so far is:
    Have physically fit roosters (semi-trained) at the start of pre-keep. After selection during the keep,
    follow your vitamin/drug regimen, exercises/training, feed with a set percentage of carbohydrates in their diet (lactic acid threshold tolerance increases, thus fighting minute potential also increases). Last 3 days of keep, rest and give the same feed ratio as they store glycogen anyway because of forced inactivity. Observe their behavior/physical fitness, and hope for the best come fight day. Is this a good hypothesis?

  23. #53
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    Brother Fring:
    How can I argue with your hypothesis? You have a degree on the subject and work with it for so many years. As an avid cocker, I can only induce enhancement to your theory based on my humble experienced and that is, by adding more Carbohydrates on the last 3-days and monitoring the droppings for body moisture. Hence, Pointing and Holding the Point on fight time is the common denominator.

  24. #54
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    For those who miss this topic

    wmtan
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    posted 12-01-2005 09:09 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    B-15 and lactic acid
    This topic is getting interesting. I've made a few more research on the net about B-15 and lactic acid and I'd like to present extract of the articles that I've read together with my personal understanding of these articles.

    First question: Is B-15 a vitamin? What does it do to the body?

    Below is the information I got from a number of articles I've read on the internet that answer the question.

    ......

    "A Vitamin is an organic molecule required by a living organism in minute amounts for proper health. An organism deprived of all sources of a particular vitamin will eventually suffer from disease symptoms specific to that vitamin."

    "Pangamic Acid (B-15) is not a vitamin in the strict sense because it has not been proven to be an essential requirement for the body. It has not yet been shown to be essential in the diet (vitamins must be supplied from external sources), and no symptoms or deficiency diseases are clearly revealed when consumption is restricted."

    "The function of pangamic acid is mainly a methyl donor, which helps in the formation of certain amino acids such as methionine. It may play a role in the oxidation of glucose and in cell respiration. By this function, it may reduce hypoxia (deficient oxygen) in cardiac and other muscles."

    "The most common form of pangamic acid was calcium pangamate, but currently it is dimethyl glycine (DMG), which may even be the active component that has been hailed in the Soviet Union. Pangamic acid or DMG, when used, is often taken with vitamin E and vitamin A."

    ......

    From the explanation above, I believe it is safe to say for now that a gamecock will not develop illnesses or deficiencies kung hindi binibigyan ng B-15. Walang epekto ang B-15 sa health ng gamecock.

    If that is so, then what the heck is B-15 for? I believe the answer can be best understood if we examine what lactic acid is all about. Let me extract two paragraphs from the articles that our fellow cocker Fring has referred to us. I believe these will help us understand the role of B-15 in the body.

    ......

    "What is lactic acid good for?"

    "First of all, the accumulation of lactic acid during exercise can interfere with muscle contraction, nerve conduction and energy production, leading to acute fatigue. That’s one reason you tire during a training session. Yet lactic acid isn’t just a useless byproduct of energy metabolism — it is an important energy source."


    "Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP) is the primary form of cell energy. Actively contracting muscles obtain ATP from glucose stored in the blood stream and the breakdown of glycogen stored in the muscles. Initially, pyruvic acid and small amounts of ATP are generated from the breakdown of glucose. The pyruvic acid mixed with oxygen is converted to carbon dioxide, water and ATP. When muscles contract vigorously for long periods the circulatory system begins to lose ground in the delivery of oxygen. In these conditions, most of the pyruvic acid produced in the breakdown of glucose is converted to lactic acid (LA). As the lactate is produced in the muscles, it leaks out into the blood and is carried around the body. If this condition continues the functioning of the body will become impaired and the muscles will fatigue very quickly. When oxygen becomes available, the lactic acid is converted to pyruvic acid and then into carbon dioxide, water and ATP."

    ......

    The second paragraph includes a paradoxical statement - that is, "lactic acid leads to acute fatigue but it is an important source of energy". Nakakalito, di ba? . Masama pero kailangan. The second part of this statement is probably the basis why our friend Fring posed the question "Why remove lactic acid when it is an important source of energy?"

    Well, if one reads through the article, he will find the answer there. Lactic acid, per se, causes fatigue. For it to be useful to the body it has to be converted back to pyruvic acid, then to ATP. And what is needed for this conversion to occur? OXYGEN!!! This is where B-15 comes in. It aids in the oxidation process. It does not remove lactic acid in the literal sense of the word. It aids in the oxidation process such that more of the stored glocuse is converted to ATP and therefore less lactic acid develops. Di ba, it is explained above that, in the absence of oxygen, glucose is converted to lactic acid. Ergo, the more efficient in the delivery of oxygen is, the more energy is produced, the less lactic acid is developed.

    Does this make sense?????

    By the way, B-15 injectable helped my cocks win the derby in Pagadian (4-0) earlier this year. I'm convinced it helps in some ways.

  25. #55
    Senior Member juan sabungero's Avatar
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    agree . . . b-15 should be in included in conditioning aid

  26. #56
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    Somehow when we read research papers, what it says does not automatically mean we agree with it, that's why at most we try to validate a paper's claim by doing experiments, especially if the variables are measurable. Someone has mentioned in this site to check the association of the last dropping's acidity (could be measured with a pH strip) before the fight to the fight results. I don't know if he's got the results so far. I was not suggesting anything in my last post. I was only trying to summarize what was recently posted in this thread. So no offense intended to anyone.

  27. #57
    Jay Docado
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    Super Ometol

    Hello cockmates, i read some article here that super ometol is useful in carboloading..Is there anybody here tried this stuff?are they really useful, once you've use this medicine, no more adding of corn..pls. advise.

  28. #58
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    VL knows...

    I think mr. VL knows a thing or two about ometol... correct me if i'm wrong sir but i think you posted about this in a different thread right?

    anyway, please enlighten us with your knowledge of said aid (VL)...

    thanks and much appreciation...
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  29. #59
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    Guys.....Nice thread.

    The most important thing you can learn when you are conditioning cocks is that each show represents a new set of difficulties, a different series of problems.
    Be flexible, use your common and "chicken" sense. But remember, above all, you must have good cocks to win. There is no substitute for quality fowl or for quality care. To be in the winner's circle, you must have both.

    Thanks for your contributions.

  30. #60
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    ....

    i'm learning a lot on this thread...

    thanks for all the info...
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

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