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Thread: The Breeding of Asil/Grades

  
  1. #31
    tiririt
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    why not?

    Not all breeders are convinced that Asils are steel game fowls.And that basically is the reason why it so seldom that you see a breeder whose fowls are predominantly asils.Some folks always point to the fact that this breed has quetionable gameness although some strain are being used by some chickenmen to cross with their American type fowl to produce battlecrossess.Some have been successful,the likes of Ray Alexander,Ramon Mitra,Grey Soldiers of Glenn Justiss of Omaha,Texas.Mr. Travis Clark of Lampe,Missouri has some,Paul Hulin of Louisiana to name a few.
    We've been trying to breed some for 2 years now and we are still in the process of testing the offsprings.They have been showing good during sparring sessions.We tested one sweater/asil cross last year...he went to the drag...he lost but did not run and i think that was a good sign.Come February 7 we are going to fight some of their lines again....blackgrey/asil,sweater/radio/asil crosses...hopefully the results will be good.

  2. #32
    marlon c. angay
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    Asil…yes why not...

    I got Asil crosses this time and unfortunately most of his brother and sister gone by unconcern immunization of fowls in my place without taking extra measures about other business…just maybe telling us to do the vaccination also…so that’s it…

    IMHO…the Asil grade that I produce is a nice looking cross…nice tight feather…I’ve tried him sparred in some other lines of fighting cocks here…and it seems he got the potential to over shadow his opponent…very very smart, can do the wave, side step and have cut…even back step…the legs are like machine gun...however, I don’t know if this will do in the steel…I plan to have him in the hack fight but i don’t want to lost him without something to look after like him…I read that fowl with oriental blood should not be fought below 2 yrs old…right now I got ¼ strain of Asil and if I can propagate out of him it might be a 1/8 strain and 7/8 out of the any Speeder hen because this is the missing line.

    Well! I think some of the fowl that was fought in the WSD2004 got some of the Asil blood in them e.g. the “Hatchet” …for what I’ve heard there’s Oriental blood x Brownred line that infuse to the other line… and they got amazing performance 6W2L is not bad but promising show.

    And also I read and heard that some of the great fighter in America cockfighting use the oriental blood to have a better fighting style and solid body with power that was not in their line of breed if I’m not mistaken Bobby Boles is one of the great oriental man…

    For me it will be a research of breeding that may be someday give the breeder to think of Asil as (Oriental blood) or will be the best cross for LK in the Philippines…and we might be considering the fact that some of the strain here brought by American breeders already have the oriental blood in them…like the roundhead…the peacomb one is the sign of oriental blood in them….just my lil view and opinion.

    Ycfis,:hippie:

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  4. #33
    paquito56
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    Mi Amigo dakogitlog, to explain it simple, i think IMHO that is a matter of appearance and "cache"..Most Filipinos go more for the looks than for the quality. As Asils being not game, let the guys go to Thailand and see an Asil fight, and then you guys tell me. I have seen American imported that have run away like marathon runners, but for the Filipino, whatever is American, is better. Is why Starbucks coffe is better than the coffe of a Carenderia, is the impression that it can be created.. Asils have been fought for so long in the regions of Pakistan, India, and else, and have proven to be very brave, not to say strong.. So , is a matter of preferences and psychological issues...I hope that someday the so called"great breeders" of the Philippines can come out with a bloodline that is less dependent of Texans, kentuckians and else..Then they can be called great breeders..im not taking nothing from them, but iMHO they havent shown what a great breeder is and that is to come out with something new and not spread all over the country.....want to malke sure once more, that my comments arent meant to offend or to denigrate any breeder here.......Thanks.....

  5. #34
    kutangbato
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    i beg to disagree, asil are very g ame in the naked heel, but not very game in steel....except tha very, very, very few.

    that is the simple reason.

    id love to haveand fight asil grades, that are quick and game enough for the long knife, but only a few breeders have them.

    they are simply rare.

    and most of breeders cant afford to start from scratch.mitra put so much time, money, effort, etc to produce that famous mitra fowl.
    one story is that he slaughtered whole yards of hundreds of experimental crosses when the brothers he fught were not game.

    ps:

    i would be very interested if someone can help me acquire a genuine mitra fowl.

  6. #35
    Senior Member don b's Avatar
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    Many are unaware of the value and benefits of breeding Orientals. It is also due to the unavailability of good grades. I don’t think good Oriental grades would be available commercially. The same could be true with good American fowls. That is why there is a need for importation. Due to the frequency of hacks and derbies, we tend to acquire what is winning now. Some don’t seem to have the patience, knowledge in breeding Orientals and American fowls as well because some local magazines promote more advertisements than educating us on bloodlines. Some cockers fortunately have them but don't know what to do with it. Over the years, I have helped lesser known people with Oriental grades. It made them happy, but where do they go from here??? There's more to breeding..................I guess you really got to have the heart.............................not just the fever
    :hippie:

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  8. #36
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    dakogitlog

    do you know kuotbilat from dumaguete?

  9. #37
    Senior Member ROM_PH's Avatar
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    Practicality

    I think the reason why not a lot of cockers are in to Asils is for practicality reasons:

    1. For orientals, you need to have them age, 2 years min. That means you spend a lot of money for feeds, vitamins, etc. Then when you fight it, the chance of winning is still of course 50/50.

    2. Asils weight much heavier than american speed fowls, that means if you go to derbies then it's hard to find a match.

    3. Gameness usually comes with age. If you try to pit a 6 mo. old asil versus 6 mo. old american speed fowl, there is a pretty good chance for the asil to run. After 2 years, it's a different story.

    4. If you are breeding to sell, it would be hard to sell an ugly-looking fowl for a good price.

    5. Crossing asil with American speed fowls I think will require a lot of trial and error and once you get a nick it's hard to replicate it back. I think aggression and coolness can not go together.

    So, use Asil for your own consumption and fiight them in hacks. Just make sure you age them. I personally like asils because of fighting style, so I use them in my experimental breeding as well, but now, I'm considering of breeding them pure and fighting them pure. 1/16 Asil grades, like most people would recommend is like saying no Asil blood at all.

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  11. #38
    thundercock
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    Not ideal

    Simple, Asil on its pure state is not ideal for slasher fight as what we have here in PI. Asil cross up to 1/4,1/8,1/16 of its blood to American fowl is very ideal to suit to our slasher fight.


    " Life is Short...Enjoy "

    Thundercock

  12. #39
    blackhatch
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    cockmates,

    The main reason why we filipinos don't like asil grades was because asil have only 3 styles of fighting (slow but sure blows, sidestepping and a vertical cutter (jumping jack style)) his aggressiveness comes out only when it reaches the age of 2 years, it also dies very fast, when hit looks like being shocked.....while compared to american gamefowl who has (speed, gameness or aggressiveness, sidestepping, backstepping, smart, slasher,good cutter, multiple shuffler)....yes it's true that asil are good for american gamecock crossbreeding but you need only to infuse 1/4, 1/8 asil blood...once you go more than that the aggressiveness will be lost.

    ......the most important thing is it's aggressiveness (drag fight), secondly is it's cutting ability (either timing, one hard hit or a multiple shuffler), 3rd it's speed, 4th it's smartness.

    .....as a breeder you need to have a keen look at the fighting style whether he kills on air or on ground.

    .......when it's a grounder you need to infuse it with:

    -has the multiple shuffle. (SWEATER, GREY, BUTCHER, DOM, BLACK)
    -has the cautious sidestepping or backstepping (GREY,BROWNRED,BLACK)
    -has the speed for follow-up after sidestepping (GREY,LEMON, DOM, BUTCHER, BROWNRED, HENNIE)
    -has the body hunter (ALMOST ALL BLOODLINES)
    -has the aggressiveness (HATCH (greenleg))
    -has the smartness (cautious) (LEMON, DOM, BUTCHER)


    ........when it's a flyer you need to infuse it with:

    - multiple shuffler (SWEATER, GREY, BUTCHER, DOM, BLACK)
    - timing or one good blow (very hard) (ASIL, BLUE, PYLE, ROUNDHEAD, CLARET,BLACK)
    - a rusher (speed) (SWEATER, HENNIE, BLACK)
    - a flyer or a jumper (KELSO, LEMON, BROWNRED, RADIO, ROUNDHEAD hatch, YELLOWLEG hatch, CLARET, BLACK, HENNIE)
    - aggressiveness (HATCH (greenleg))
    - sidestepping (GREY, DOM, BROWNRED, LEMON, BUTCHER, HENNIE,ASIL)
    - a head hunter or wing or back shuffler (slasher). (ASIL, HATCH)

    .............GUD LUCK!!!!.................

  13. #40
    Member Troy's Avatar
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    In our yard asils show disease resistance and good cutting ability. Before anything else though, you have to find an asil that is steel game and this is where the start of all the problems begin with breeding them. If you don't get a steel game asil you're going to get runners. For us, we love ours and they are mighty ugly to look at. someone quoted in tagalog saying " if you are going to look at a rooster might as well look at a pretty one". Good luck YFIS

  14. #41
    Senior Member don b's Avatar
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    Troy,
    Yes, disease resistance, improved cutting and steel game. Most Orientals here are not steel game that is why they have to be graded more. Steel game Orientals cut to the body and don't go for a bill hold due to the headback and legs out style of cutting. Grading steel game Orientals is the same as crossing American fowls. Sometimes your kelso or lemon need a shot in the arm of mclean and you just need 1/4 or 1/8 infusion. Same grading system with a different label. American fowls are being injected with so many medications, steel game Orientals can take the needle too. Only a few people would be willing to share their steel game Orientals the same story too with proven American fowls.

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  16. #42
    dakogitlog
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    Kogmohon,

    No, I don't know KuotBilat but i know Hilapadpuday from Minglanilla, Cebu.

  17. #43
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    ASIL

    Ako gustong gusto ko ang ASIL kasi pag binaliktad mo ay napakagandang dalaga LISA....lalo na pag nakabaliktad si LISA mas maganda pa....

  18. #44
    romeo-j
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    where to fight azils?

    I have a pure bred malaysian azis but i dont know where to fight them.we all know that this breed can't fight with knife and can easily be killed with one.I really want to see them with nacked heel

  19. #45
    CyberFriends
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    If you are here in the Philippines, try contacting Rolly Ramos of Calamba, Laguna. I think he is involved with an Asil Fighting Club.

  20. #46
    BeastMaster
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    BG, si edkiang preho yata ng bisyo natin

  21. #47
    Senior Member newtogame2's Avatar
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    Most Asils are game to the core in Vietnam. Even those purchased for as little as $US10 from backyad breeders often fight to the death with gaffs (no LK/SK in Vietnam, but I think gaffs are better to test gameness anyway). Their main weakness, however, is that they are a lot slower than western fowls. The way I look at it, accuracy doesn't mean a lot when the other guy has already cut you several times, therefore weakening you and lessening your ability. So when you finally cut him, you probably have suffered enough from your wounds that you couldn't connect w/ 100% strength and accuracy anymore... Some Roundheads are patient, defensive and accurate like Asils, but they also have speed to match any other western cocks. That's why they are so successful.

    Another disadvantage Asils have compared to American birds is that they SUPPOSEDLY have LARGER internal organs, i.e. lungs, heart, liver..., which can be punctured/penetrated easier in steel fighting. I don't know how true this is since I have never personally disect and compare them, but that's what a lot of Vietnamese cockers told me. I do notice, however, that Asils die a lot quicker than American fowls when fighting with steels, so perhaps there is some truth to that.

    You'll be hard pressed to find a Texan that can outlast the dense-muscled Asils in naked heel fighting though.

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  23. #48
    Member rkysat's Avatar
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    ASil Cross

    Hey Guys,

    Check this out ! I fought them as Stags in the Pit as my way of "Testing" their actual performance. So far my records shows that my 1/4 Asil line has got 90% winning percentage & 1/8's with 100% at no lost at all.
    Cheers !
    Attached Images Attached Images

  24. #49
    Senior Member ROM_PH's Avatar
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    Asil blend

    Skyrat,

    What is the blend of this cock. Surely looks tough.

  25. #50
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    asils

    Mr.Dakogitlog-Greetings!!

    IMHO people don't breed Asils cause of lack of knowledge or as has been said beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
    Hopefully I don't often my fellow Cockers what I'm saying here wouldbe from personal experience only and a little from others taking or reading.
    Any breed fights better, much more game after two years unless just out from breeding.
    Again IMHO the most important part of the bloodline is the healthful upbringing of the birds. This is to say that alot of the weakness start when they were young and they get bullied around and since Asils are late developers as gameness is concern, they tend to hit the road.
    Oriental Cockers believe that 2yrs is the min. age and I favor that, what I'm saying if you don't have the patience to wait then better do the homework.
    One other thing, I breed Hennies and also believe what I heard before that they come from Asils, I also breed thailand and Brazillian crossed with Sweater Greys and hatch Greys.
    I fought two Hennies in a derby on the 7th.
    1. against,looks like Hatch, 6x winner 4-8 over inch taller against Hennie 4.5, wings cut up and part of chest.
    2. against a black shuffler 4-13 same height. Hennie 4-12, got cut in the intestine died the next day but didn't give no indecation of running.
    The age of the two brothers were 20-22 mos.
    Hope this helps!! Want more info please e-mail.
    Thanks to all and always open to learning !!
    Bert

  26. #51
    muddskipper
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    asil grade

    Here is one of my asil grades. 1/4 asil 3/4 american blood. I don't think they are ugly and they have no problem taking steel either.


  27. #52
    marsman I
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    Question To Asil Owners

    Has anybody here ever risked and successfully fought a 50% Asil x 50% American fowl bloodline in slasher fight? If yes, what American bloodline have you used? I just received a pair of pure Asils and following the usual approach of only infusing 1/8 Asil or less to the resulting battle cock takes too long a time. Thanks for the info.

    P.S.
    I also remember having read a thread in here about ASILS but can't find it. Would someone be kind enough to point me to the right direction. Thanks again.

  28. #53
    Senior Member don b's Avatar
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    Steel game Orientals can hold their own if they are well bred and selected. Graded, they should be fast enough to mix it up with the best American fowls. Headhunters would have to be graded more, as they were bred for naked heel fighting.
    Steel game Orientals should be graded with well develop proven speed American fowls.

  29. #54
    ryan72_2000
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  30. #55
    Senior Member wildfoot's Avatar
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    Asils

    Marsman,

    I've been fooling around with Asils for a while and I can tell you that there are only TWO kinds of Asils a very GOOD one and a very BAD one, nothing in between. Make sure you start with a good game pair. I have fought 50/50 in Gaffs with little success winning 40-50%, that stat I imagine would be worse in the slasher, but 25% or 1/4 Asil and it's rock and roll.......This year I have them at 1/8th and yet to test them. One thing I found is that you should always mate the Asil C.O.C.K over the American Hens. I ditched the pure Asil Hen as nothing good came out of her(six breeding seasons to find out). I now only breed Asil cocks and cull all my graded hens. I also find that crossing them to a fast line like the Hatch or Roundhead is better than with my Kelso or blue crosses. Good luck and be patient..........


    Wildfoot

  31. #56
    Member Ferdi's Avatar
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    Asil Hen

    Friend Wildfoot, your timimg is impeccable. I'm currently breeding my first grade, but with a pure Asil pullet to a Vizzard Grey stag. The Asil breeder told me to always breed to the pea-comb hen, which, in this case is the Asil pullet. He said that the Asil will pick up speed as it learns when sparred to a faster opponent. And you have to spar them often but only one buckle. I'll soon find out about the same time - next year.

  32. #57
    Senior Member wildfoot's Avatar
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    Hen Side

    Friend Ferdi,

    I find that breeding on the hen side a bit frustrating as not only are they slower but I cant test for gameness. With Asils you never know how game they are in the knife or Gaff. In saying that my experience could be different to yours.....Sparring them may help....Let us know how yours turn out.

    Wildfoot

  33. #58
    thundercock
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    Calling Sir Glenn

    Any views about the Asil Sir Glenn?

  34. #59
    Senior Member don b's Avatar
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  35. #60
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    sometimes you get lucky

    marsman 1,

    Two years ago, I fought half asils and half thompson whites in a stag derby and came out one of three champions in a 100plus entry 6-stag derby.

    And they were bred from asil on the hen side. You would think that these would be too slow for fast competition...and they were a bit slow but, they had a mean kick that killed the other stag before they got badly hurt.

    wildfoot is right that there are very good Asils and there are very bad asils... You just have to find the good ones.

    The trial and error in breeding these ugly but deadly warriors becomes more rewarding if you start out with the right asils.

    Last year, I fought quarter Asils and did not do to good...Although I blame it on the wrong mating...because I came out with excellent quarter asils from a different mating that came from a younger batch that were too young to fight at the time.

    This year, I hope to do better with the quarter asils from the other mating...and one-eighth asils that are also super sparrers but have never been tried in the pit..

    Try to find Asils that have three spurs(heavy on the Black Sumatra blood) Also, ones with very heavy plummage in the tail composed mostly of sickle feathers...(the tail should look like hundreds of young napier grass bunch up together).

    The type of Asils that I described above seem to be smarter, deadly accurate cutters, and do not waste their moves, they also prefer to hit the armpit area unlike the other types that like to neck wrestle or aim for the head and neck.

    Anyway, there is no magic formula for coming up with good grades...you have to try it with your own stocks...practice makes perfect..

    glenn

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