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Thread: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

  
  1. #31
    Senior Member DPotter's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by spring creek View Post
    If they have pea comb blood in them then yes it is possible

    Straight comb is a result of a recessive gene and therefore needs two copies (pp) one fro each parent to display the trait, which means that SC fowl, no mater what their background, can not produce a pea-comb offspring, genetically
    (Pp) or (PP)
    .

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    I’ve been trying to insinuate that point lol. SC bred to SC will not produce a PC.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by spring creek View Post
    If they have pea comb blood in them then yes it is possible
    I know the chicken book experts will get on here and say itís impossible. Weíve had a straight comb family for over 20 years and DO GET PEA COMBS ON OCCASION. The original breeder of these fowl we got them from says he gets Pea combs too. I guess we must have different chickens then the book writers.
    Our family is a successful bloodline of straight comb, white legged, dark wine red fowl.
    I guess only UNSUCCESSFUL FAMILIES of straight comb produce alike.

  5. #34
    Senior Member spring creek's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    I know the chicken book experts will get on here and say it’s impossible. We’ve had a straight comb family for over 20 years and DO GET PEA COMBS ON OCCASION. The original breeder of these fowl we got them from says he gets Pea combs too. I guess we must have different chickens then the book writers.
    Our family is a successful bloodline of straight comb, white legged, dark wine red fowl.
    I guess only UNSUCCESSFUL FAMILIES of straight comb produce alike.
    Yea I guess we are the only ones lol I guess we are just the odd balls in the bunch. Maybe they need to re write there book because when breeding gamefowl anything is possible. It may just be the way I breed I don't breed for a certain comb type like my Grey's they have always came both ways and I've always tried breeding the best to the best no matter the comb type that maybe the reason mine will throw either one.

  6. #35
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by spring creek View Post
    Yea I guess we are the only ones lol I guess we are just the odd balls in the bunch. Maybe they need to re write there book because when breeding gamefowl anything is possible. It may just be the way I breed I don't breed for a certain comb type like my Grey's they have always came both ways and I've always tried breeding the best to the best no matter the comb type that maybe the reason mine will throw either one.
    Yea we always bred to the winners, which were STRAIGHT COMBED, white legged.
    I know other breeders that have had the same straight combed families for over 30 years and NEVER got a pea comb.
    It is what it is. I could really care less about visual features of birds.
    Another friend has straight comb greys and he gets peas rarily.
    I know nothing of white birds but seen them bred to reds down to a 16th AND STILL GET WHITE CHICKENS. Seems strange to me but if it’s in there it’s bound to show itself eventually.

  7. #36
    Senior Member spring creek's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Yea we always bred to the winners, which were STRAIGHT COMBED, white legged.
    I know other breeders that have had the same straight combed families for over 30 years and NEVER got a pea comb.
    It is what it is. I could really care less about visual features of birds.
    Another friend has straight comb greys and he gets peas rarily.
    I know nothing of white birds but seen them bred to reds down to a 16th AND STILL GET WHITE CHICKENS. Seems strange to me but if itís in there itís bound to show itself eventually.
    That's right I've got a friend that has the Out & Out kelso I always thought the only came strait comb but his throw strait and pea comb but all that matters is there good.

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    I raised Albany/RH for a few yrs. Pine Albanys come both PC and SC. My Albany Brood cock was SC, RH pullets PC. I never got a St comb stag out of my RH hens but did get SC pullets. Why is this so if PC is dominant. Next, I bred WH/RH. The WH was bred pure a long time before I got them. Everything that came out of him came white leg no matter the leg color or breed of the hen. When bred to my Lacys, which would rarely throw a SC, I got about 50% SC stags and pullets every yr. Why so if Pc is always dominant over SC?
    When I quit keeping fowl about 3 yrs. later, my partner quit and brought me his last brood fowl. They were the JJ blood that had been winning a lot in Mexico. They were 3 way crosses, YL Doc Hatch/Jumper WL Kelso/Sweater. ALL were YL medium red, and PC. I turned them loose on my place and never touched them except to hand pic a stag or two for replacement cock if needed. Over 16 yrs, I began to notice the PC on some was geting taller. Then I got 3 or 4 a yr. that their comb flopped over but had no sprigs on the top edge. Two yrs. later all the fowl looked identical as when I got them but 2 st comb stags were hatched out and raised.
    Now, these fowl were feral, random bred, very highly inbred. I never removed any hens or pullets off the yard. The broodcock was from within the same family. 100% of all biddies always solid yellow with no variation.
    What I'm saying is it is very possible to get varying genetic influence in a family of fowl if you breed them very tight for a long time and these results don't stay that way forever.
    I came to the conclusion yrs go that only one trait in gamefowl is 100% certain every time. That trait is that if they quit breathing, they will surely die.
    Last edited by RHman1026; March 14th, 2018 at 01:28 AM.

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    How often would you get PC out of your WH family?

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  12. #39
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Open your mind a little and try to follow genetics, it's not easy.
    One can be Homozygous for pea comb which is PP, or hetero for it which is Ps which is when you get a straight comb (SS) out of 2 hetero pea combs (Ps) being bred. The pea comb is dominant, the straight comb is recessive. When a SC is born regardless of gender, they do not possess a pea comb gene, impossible. The parents transferred the recessive SC gene from both ends. This can happen regardless if both have a pea comb gene (Ps), it doesn't mean that they won't from time to time transfer the recessive straight comb gene, although its not as common as transferring their dominant pea comb gene. The matter here is what the offspring will be should either one be bred and transferred, not the frequency in which they will transfer whichever gene they have. If he/she did receive a pea comb gene from either parent that is dominant for pea comb (Ps) then it wld be pea comb and not SC because if a pea comb gene is attached then its going to be a pea comb (it's dominant and not recessive, it won't play second fiddle to the more recessive gene being SC). When you breed 2 SC's (SS), they do not have a pea Comb gene as in (Sp) ever, if so the bird being bred would be pea comb because pea is dominant and takes over the straight comb gene. SC is recessive so therefore the dominant pea comb gene cannot be present. The SC fowl are SS, never Sp. That is law of genetics, not made up on the whim. Take the Butcher line, if someone tries to sell you a pea comb Butcher, ha! Are you gonna buy it and say wellllllllllll, it's possible? Hell no. This is how I separated my Albany line and I never get a pea comb from 2 SC parents, easy to get them all straight comb. Now in the pea comb matings it's a little more difficult to get them all pea comb when the line comes in both combs (although pea is more common). I will get a SC still yet sometimes b/c i have not found both parents yet that are homo PP, and not hetero Ps. For example, SC Albany (SS) to hetero PC hen (Ps), I get pullets that are SC and stags that are PC. Why is that? Well b/c the hen is Ps, and in this case the cock influences the female and pulls the recessive s from her. The stags are influenced by the hen and her dominant gene is pea comb because she is pea comb so therefore she dictates the stags comb. That flows into the prepotency factor as well, whole other topic. Nonetheless, getting all pea comb from 2 pc parents is going to take me a few more years and maybe never happen who knows, time will tell but it's fun trying. It's like we know if a grey cock being pure for the grey gene is bred, all offspring will be grey no matter what and that it's sex linked. If not this won't hold true, same for combs. The laws of genetics have been researched, proven and established long ago and just b/c human beings seem to think they get to choose their gender nowadays and defy biology and God doesn't mean the laws of genetics will follow suit on here when it comes to birds. So, If someone does gets a pea comb out of 2 SC's, then congratulations you have defied the laws of genetics and stranger things have happened I will say but.............to try to explain it based on what is already known would be virtually impossible. Good luck.

    Semper Fidelis
    Last edited by KevinG; March 14th, 2018 at 04:30 AM.

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  14. #40
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gavilancillo View Post
    How often would you get PC out of your WH family?
    If you were asking me, I was only talking about when I bred my WH cock to my RH hen and both stags and pullets came both ways.

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    Senior Member INCUBUS06's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Some folk just will never understand...

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    http://www.sabong.net.ph/forum/showt...5-Genetics-101


    Post #1, #20, #23 and #63 are full of links and references for those that want to get deeper into the breeding/genetics aspect of our sport. Enjoy.

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  19. #43
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    It is well known that the Albanys had several bloods in their makeup and were not kept as a long time breeding family and it is a small miracle that they come as uniform as they do.
    You hear the statement on this forum that"All gamefowl are crosses to begin with so why not just breed best to best". Well, every time you put a drop of different blood in your fowl, there is a chance for over 700 recombinitions of genes which involves everything we can see and catalog as desirable or not and also every particle that makes up that fowl.
    Then we as breeders of the crossbred fowl have to contend with Mendel's Law of Segregation of animals, as well as plants. The 9-3-3-1 ratio thing and the contention that the one individual out of the 16 offspring could be a purebred of one of the families you started with is something we see evidence of when different color legs, different body shapes come out of inbred and linebred fowl. In the end scheme of things our fowl are what we like best and perpetuate.

  20. #44
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    It is well known that the Albanys had several bloods in their makeup and were not kept as a long time breeding family and it is a small miracle that they come as uniform as they do.
    You hear the statement on this forum that"All gamefowl are crosses to begin with so why not just breed best to best". Well, every time you put a drop of different blood in your fowl, there is a chance for over 700 recombinitions of genes which involves everything we can see and catalog as desirable or not and also every particle that makes up that fowl.
    Then we as breeders of the crossbred fowl have to contend with Mendel's Law of Segregation of animals, as well as plants. The 9-3-3-1 ratio thing and the contention that the one individual out of the 16 offspring could be a purebred of one of the families you started with is something we see evidence of when different color legs, different body shapes come out of inbred and linebred fowl. In the end scheme of things our fowl are what we like best and perpetuate.
    It takes 6 years to get a cross to come uniform. When I say breed the winners to winners I’m talking about a well established, successful cross that has already been put into my brood fowl. That’s how we kept our family going. We’d put crossed aces back into our brood fowl. When you already know there’s a nick. It isn’t guessing or hoping when breeding time comes around. In 25 years we only found two bloodlines that perpetuated our brood fowls success.

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    It takes 6 years to get a cross to come uniform. When I say breed the winners to winners Iím talking about a well established, successful cross that has already been put into my brood fowl. Thatís how we kept our family going. Weíd put crossed aces back into our brood fowl. When you already know thereís a nick. It isnít guessing or hoping when breeding time comes around. In 25 years we only found two bloodlines that perpetuated our brood fowls success.
    Is this how you maintain all your lines. Or just one of them ? Only reason I ask is because you stated that in 25 years youíve only found two nicks. Or crosses that when bred back help or perpetuate your good trates. Have you ever tried any other fourm of breeding.
    Last edited by El_Gavilancillo; March 14th, 2018 at 11:24 AM.

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    There’s a million ways to skin a cat. The only reason I ask is because I’m truly curious. I was brought up around line breeding. That’s line breeding from individuals that they themselves come from tight bred families. That’s all I know. Just seem counter productive to keep breeding crosses into your family. Not saying it won’t work. If it works for you I would like to hear more on your way who knows. One day I might be on that side of the fence

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Your first two sentences proves to me that your fowl aren't crossbred fowl any longer In reality their traits are set in them the same as the Lacys have their traits each generation. Every breeder in the past had to go thru the same process. Call it what you like but the process is linebreeding, just over a longer period of time and less intense. Like you mentioned, it took 6 generations for your fowl to become uniform. I would think there is one , maybe two traits, either somewhat important or more important to you to either eliminate or infuse into your fowl that you are finding hard to do. It will always be this way with any fowl. Watching one of my cocks lose told me more, quicker than any other way, what I needed to breed for in my RH
    MY last thought is directed to you men that know much more than I do about genetics is..... If peacomb is always dominate and the hen decides what her stags look and fight like then please why I got both pea comb and straight comb stags and pullets when breeding my WH cock over my RH hens?

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    RHman brings up a good point. This is why I would love if mongoose would elaborate a little on his way of breeding

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    Your first two sentences proves to me that your fowl aren't crossbred fowl any longer In reality their traits are set in them the same as the Lacys have their traits each generation. Every breeder in the past had to go thru the same process. Call it what you like but the process is linebreeding, just over a longer period of time and less intense. Like you mentioned, it took 6 generations for your fowl to become uniform. I would think there is one , maybe two traits, either somewhat important or more important to you to either eliminate or infuse into your fowl that you are finding hard to do. It will always be this way with any fowl. Watching one of my cocks lose told me more, quicker than any other way, what I needed to breed for in my RH
    MY last thought is directed to you men that know much more than I do about genetics is..... If peacomb is always dominate and the hen decides what her stags look and fight like then please why I got both pea comb and straight comb stags and pullets when breeding my WH cock over my RH hens?
    You know the rules change when your working with a prepotent family. Iíve played with a few fowl and never have seen another prepotent family like our kelso. When we breed a kelso cock over our pea comb hatch hens. We would get 90% or more white legged, straight comb offspring. If we bred the straight combed, white legged crosses together. They looked like pure kelso and performed as such.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gavilancillo View Post
    RHman brings up a good point. This is why I would love if mongoose would elaborate a little on his way of breeding
    Our method only worked with our kelso. Like I said. They were very prepotent. They could be deeply inbred ( such as the original breeder did with them). Or crossbred then line bred as me and my father did. It worked both ways. Most fowl it won’t work for. I’ve tried it. We just got lucky. Nothing special about our method.

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  30. #51
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Another interesting fact about our fowl is they aren’t actually pure. They were started with a 3/4 kelso cock with hatch hens. We just picked out the straight combs and white legs cause they consistently won most. There basically 50/50 crosses. The originator of the fowl still deeply inbreeds and his are very good too.
    Our Kelsos look like my avitar. The original breeders fowl have much higher station and much taller. His are more defensive than ours too. Damn good birds though.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; March 14th, 2018 at 01:25 PM.

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Our method only worked with our kelso. Like I said. They were very prepotent. They could be deeply inbred ( such as the original breeder did with them). Or crossbred then line bred as me and my father did. It worked both ways. Most fowl it won’t work for. I’ve tried it. We just got lucky. Nothing special about our method.
    Prepotency changes everything, like you said. Like you mentioned the man you got your Kelso from. I know the prepotent factor didn't appear completely by accident in your Kelso. Linebreeding on one side of the mating can affect the results of that mating greatly. Then when you are lucky enough to get a animal that is prepotent and possesses the traits you like, then you are in a great place in your breeding program.
    Serious cattle breeders pay huge money for tested, prepotent bulls to use in both their pure herds and to raise crossbred market calves. They pay this money because they have a better product, quicker.
    I always kept records of % of wins of my crossbred cocks and which subfamily of RH they came from and records of win % of the pure ones. A very few st combs showed up in my RH and by my ideas and actual testing, they were eliminated. But if their win % was higher I might have used them, maybe not. I always thought putting this st. comb back into the line would change what I was trying to accomplish which was to breed the best Lacys ever fought. To me this meant pea comb, white and yellow leg, red cocks. I could have accepted the st. combs if they were best but would have always done my best to raise Peacombs that were better.

  33. #53
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    Prepotency changes everything, like you said. Like you mentioned the man you got your Kelso from. I know the prepotent factor didn't appear completely by accident in your Kelso. Linebreeding on one side of the mating can affect the results of that mating greatly. Then when you are lucky enough to get a animal that is prepotent and possesses the traits you like, then you are in a great place in your breeding program.
    Serious cattle breeders pay huge money for tested, prepotent bulls to use in both their pure herds and to raise crossbred market calves. They pay this money because they have a better product, quicker.
    I always kept records of % of wins of my crossbred cocks and which subfamily of RH they came from and records of win % of the pure ones. A very few st combs showed up in my RH and by my ideas and actual testing, they were eliminated. But if their win % was higher I might have used them, maybe not. I always thought putting this st. comb back into the line would change what I was trying to accomplish which was to breed the best Lacys ever fought. To me this meant pea comb, white and yellow leg, red cocks. I could have accepted the st. combs if they were best but would have always done my best to raise Peacombs that were better.
    Ive learned you can make a family look and perform alike but that doesnít make them prepotent when bred to other fowl.
    My Roundhead are still very inbred and uniform but arenít nearly as prepotent as our kelso. You breed them to other fowl and they tend to look rh. I have less than a 16th of sweater in my rh. They perform exactly as the sweater did. They have little of the performance qualities of the rh. I left them that way cause they win but my intention was to get them to perform exactly as the rh does. It didnít work out that way but the goal is to win a high percentage and they do.

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Anyone have any experience with bill mcnatt Albany?


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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Sorry not about Albanys but of pea comb. My father bred McClanahans for many years. He started with 2 trios one from Texas one from Arizona. That's what we called them. All were straight comb. After several years we had one come pea comb. We had no pea comb fowl on the farm. I know McClanahans are a claret RH cross. The only time I know of it happening. My hatch use to come both pea and straight head but haven't had a straight comb in many years.

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  38. #56
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    There are, or were at one time, 2 families of Albanys. The first named Old Albanys was bred from a 1/2Hatch 1/2 Henny cock over pure Grimes RH hens(1st mating) Then pure Mahogany cock was bred to the 1/2 RH, 1/4H, 1/4 Henny hens(2nd) mating. These fowl were only average fowl and a lot of them mean. Hard hitters. The second family were the Pine Albanys. The were bred by Ed Pine, a short heel fighter. He used a keep that most cocks could not take. Extreme work and very little feed and rest. He tried the Old Albanys and wasn't pleased but liked some of their traits. He bred a Stryker WH cock over the Old Albany hens. The cock was white with black spangles.Cock also brass back and brass hackles, YL. Said to also have 1/8 Muff blood. Cecil Jones from Miss. went to NY. and got the Pines from Oconnell. He started fighting them here in the South and also the Tournaments held around the Southeast. They did well and Cecil sold some for big money and he saw money could be made so he went back to Oconnell''s and bought every yard bred chicken that resembled the Albanys and brought them here and pedaled them everywhere. The first yard(the good ones) went to Roy Turner at York, Al. Roy was a school teacher and made a few very good gaffs. Only friends could get them. Not saying Cecil didn't let some of the originals out. But the second bunch were sold to to anyone. Roy Turner passed all this info. to Carl and Billy Manning, my close friends and whom I got my Pines from. Billy got them from Roy in 1956 after Roy and Cecil split up over a dispute over a white Albany cock that won at Hot Springs. Cock was pet of Roy's that he raised from a chick and handfed. he also let him in the house. Cecil sold the cock at pitside without asking Roy.

    Pines will come brassback, also red, also beautiul white and red spangled also if you breed them close will come pumpkin-gold with lots of white in wings and tail. ALWAYS the pure Pines are YELLOW leg. Occasionally few green spots on legs. Never whitelegs. I know there are WL out there but not out of the originals. Pines come both PC and ST C. Mr. Manning cautioned me to breed pc to st comb. He said breeding pc to pc they would get short, too heavy for their size and slow. I kept them for years. Only family I call dead game any day, every day, moult, sick or well.
    Thanks for posting this.Ive been reading up on the history of the Albany fowl.From what Ive seen the first were 1/2 Hatch 1/4 Pogmire Whitehackle 1/4 Hennie .Then as you said crossed over the Mahoney fowl. Do you know what was in the make up of the Mahoneys?
    When did the Brassbacks start to pop up ? Was it when the Stryker WH was bred into them? Do you know if the Pines were set as a strain at 1/2 Stryker Whitehackle or if the pullets from that mating were bred back to the Stryker cock making them 3/4 then set as strain etc?

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
    10 month old Straight Comb GJ Albany hen, Chocolate. Solid line.

    I think you keep putting this color and darker back into the breeding and you will get brassbacks.

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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Anybody get dark leg pullets out of their albanys.. knew there was dark blood in mine from crossing them would get occasional blue legged pullets.. usually get all yl pullets and stags but had an entire settin of pullets come green legged.. would figure if it was gonna happen it would be 1 or 2 here and there not a whole settin.

  42. #59
    Senior Member spring creek's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    I think you keep putting this color and darker back into the breeding and you will get brassbacks.
    Most all hens come dark to brass back have had a few roosters come brass back but been about 12 years or so. They are the Glenn Justice chocolate's I think there one the best I have for crossing.

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    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: need help bout ALBANY bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by spring creek View Post
    Most all hens come dark to brass back have had a few roosters come brass back but been about 12 years or so. They are the Glenn Justice chocolate's I think there one the best I have for crossing.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Nice looking Albanys. You ever try any crossed over your Whitehackle. I found some BBA Ive been thinking on getting to try over mine.

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