August 12th, 2006, 12:07 PM
Tips on Holding your Cocks On Point!
Perfect timing is a challenge...surely monitor the intake and droppings, but still right timing is key. With the process of limbering, putting on the knife, and heating...after a long stay in the cockpit, let's hear some tips out there from the masters on how to hold your cocks on point or arrive to that perfect stage--I mean have your cocks at its peak at the time you release your warrior into battle.
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August 12th, 2006, 01:03 PM
August 12th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Cocks digest more or less close to 2 grams per hour.This is always my guide to arrive in perfect timing of emptying them.Take into consideration the less water you give or the dryer they are the slower the feed is digested..Weather also plays a very important role in pointing.If its hot they come on point faster and slower if its raining.I like to fight cocks that are still going up to their peak than cocks already at its peak hours before fight and try to hold them.You never know how fast they go off peak and again weather can influence this.
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August 12th, 2006, 02:17 PM
POINTING AND HOLDING THEM ON POINT
I just so happened to just send this to one my my fellow cocker in Manila, so I thought I'd share this to some folks that are interested in picking up some tricks of the trade for what its worth. Since my fights has been mostly here in the U. S; the measurements used are all standards.
Anyway, lets keep them crowning:
There has always been some confusion among feeders as well as others alike concerning
The term “ON POINT.” Forget this term for right now and consider these: TOTAL FITNESS, CORRECT MOISTURE and SHARPNESS.
-TOTAL FITNESS should occur by the time the fowl have gone through the Pre-keep and the last feedings of the Keep. They should be healthier, stronger, and more enduring than they ever have been.
-The MOISTURE is the internal moisture of the fowl. Our main concern is the moisture that the fowl will pass after 12 to 14 hours of their last feeding before competition. Once the feed is passed, the moisture will follow. As the moisture passes, smaller and smaller spots will be dropped. This is what you call the “Drying Out Process.” Once they are dropping the size of a dime or the end of your little finger (Hin liliit) they should be just right. The fowl will be loose enough to reach and cut accurately with minimal blood loss due to being hit at this level of moisture.
-When all of these things, (TOTAL FITNESS, EMPTY OF ALL FEED, CORRECT MOISTUR LEVEL) are accompanied with 24 to 36 hours of rest, your fowl will be what is known as sharp or as what everybody term “ON POINT.”
Their reflexes will be quick, and they will show great alertness. As they are dropped out at the pit, they will act almost hyper, when they face the wire and when they come to a standstill, they will actually be standing on their toes.
As the fowl drop their last portion of feed, their energy level will start to increase because none is being used up to digest or pass the feed. They get more cocky and active. Once they pass this moisture down to the desired level, they will be sharp.
The droppings should have more white and less green until he comes ON POINT, dropping only white bubbly gut moisture.
All roosters do not come on point at the same time, so each individual must be checked and the necessary adjustments made to get and hold them on point throughout fight day.
On the other hand, the fowl will also lose this edge once he have been without nourishment so long that their bodies actually use up their stored nutrients and become weakened. This is what is known as going over or “NAG-OFF NA.” LOL!
A rooster will hold point or sharpness on for a given amount of time and then will go over. This is most likely true if one chooses to use the synthetic pointing pills, injections, or any wonder or magic drugs if you choose. Once the chemical wear off, the fowl will go flat and be ready to rest or sleep just like a drunken person or a druggist.
Some methods of holding fowl on point.
-This method involves keeping the fowl at the desired moisture level and fairly empty by feeding them small amounts of soft, moist feed on a timed schedule while constantly checking the droppings to insure their consistency.
-Another method is the Carbohydrate loading.
- Carbohydrates are energy nutrients that the fowl can store for later use. All of the sugar grains are high in carbohydrates such as HONEY, BEE POLLEN, the liquid FATTY ACID substitutes, etc. The idea is to load the fowl and build up a good reserve for them to use as they empty out during competition.
Once your fowl drop empty, the only thing you’ll have to deal with is holding them at the correct moisture level. If you time it to where the fowl are dead sharp, about half way through the derby, you shouldn’t to do anything to compete. Depending on the weather, your room temperature and humidity, a good feeder knows how to feel his little warrior if they are getting dry, wet or lighting up.
A rooster that has too much moisture will hit but cannot stand a little punishment.
A rooster that is too dry will fight fast but will hit short.
- If your rooster starts to dry down faster than expected, he will need a peck or two of your pointing feed, apple, banana, etc. I like to use cottage cheese and a dip or two of buttermilk if he starts to lighten up.
- -If your rooster starts getting wet, a couple of laying pellets, Canadian peas, bread, or rice water, etc will do the trick.
-If your rooster isn’t passing feed fast enough, a small grape or a raisin should do the job.
-Otherwise, stay with them on a regular timed basis during the derby so they won’t go over. These holds true here in the United States where a 5 cock derby matching is done blindly that you don’t have a clue when your first or next fight is called upon as opposed to countries like the Philippines, where owners can have a say as to who they can enter first and last.
-Remember, the most essential element of this method is the ability to know how to fell your little warriors. When holding a rooster that is holding the correct amount of moisture, you will be able to feel it between the skin and the muscle at the breast and the rear end. The moisture must show in the droppings and in the fowls flesh. It should feel as if the skin fits loosely on the fowl. This is but the best way for me to explain on how they should feel. lol!
It’s hard enough to win with them on point.
To get your rooster going sharp, you must CONTROL THE MOISTURE IN THEIR ENVIRONMENT. Of course, this is easier said than done because the forces of nature can play a big difference with the best laid out plans. RAIN, COLD, HEAT, and humidity are the forces that you must control.
To try and minimize these instances is to have a room or cock house where you can control their environmental moisture. This is one big difference on why these big time cockers that you often witness are consistently on the money besides having the best fowls that money can buy.
-The room temperature should be maintained somewhere around 75 degrees
-The humidity at about 60 to 70 percent and these will vary depending on your local weather conditions.
You can do your adjustments with the following equipments:
- Humidifier for dry climate
- Dehumidifier for wet climate
- Temperature and humidity gauge
- Air conditions when you can
- Try to keep them rested on this kind of environment the last 3 days before fight time when you can and if you can.
Hasta luego, que ti vaya bien,
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August 12th, 2006, 08:58 PM
August 12th, 2006, 10:20 PM
August 12th, 2006, 10:35 PM
daghan salamat bai orientaldelight !
pardon my ignorance but, will this system hold true on
stags during derbies ?
August 13th, 2006, 01:39 AM
Assuming you have given them enough time to acclimate on their new surroundings, to build your stag’s confidence in yourself and get them accustom to the conditioning routine and the keep feed.
Good stags make good cocks if they have been properly cared for since day one especially in the off-season. I believe that one very important aspect of winning with stags is to have them in top mental shape. They need to be handled and gentled as much as possible so that the maddening crowd will not bother him. A gentle, calm, stags will make the big difference between winning and losing. A wild nervous individual is always at a disadvantage when meeting a calm, gentle stag that is not bothered by the crowd. Some types of strain are not fully developed yet at 12 months of age. Some that are only average as stags might develop into outstanding cocks when given enough time to mature, so they must be handled properly to achieve maximum results.
Dagan salamat bai tambien!
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August 13th, 2006, 02:31 AM
August 13th, 2006, 03:08 AM
August 13th, 2006, 04:58 AM
great post im sure alot of people just got some more info and who says we dont learn at school this here is school school for cockers haha,identifying all the things that the point is really about is a great step for us to get our warriors in kill mode haha i wonder its like the matrix when there on point they can dodge and dish out lol,YFIS Mick
August 13th, 2006, 05:34 AM
Thanks for the tips Orientaldelight; much appreciated!
August 13th, 2006, 05:40 AM
....excellent post OD ........ and whole LOT MORE!
August 13th, 2006, 06:43 AM
Frequency of Maintaining the Point
Orientaldelight, kamusta na. I use Orientaldelights Pointing and Maintaining the Point on Fight Day.
-I like to add the frequency of checking to maintain the point. I check or drop the birds every hour whether in the States or Philippines.
-In the States, you are blindly matched with no published fight schedule. You really do not know when you will be called to limber and tie your bird. I was taught to observe the birds every 2 to 3 hours but it gave me less opportunity to adjust the sharpness of the birds. By the time I drop the birds and notice that the birds had gone over point, it was too late to bring them back to point. So, the once every hour observation gave me the time to maintain their point.
-In the Philippines, I still maintain the point every hour because there is so much "Balasa or Gulangan" or manuevers by the competition and sabong boys (syndicate).
-This year, it happened again by luck. The opponent bird did not want to fight and so a replacement was allowed. The fight was delayed for 3 hours and the opponent had no replacement, and we had to fight the joker. But the handler did not maintain the point or did not know how to maintain the point and we loss the fight and the derby championship to a typical joker. Before and during the derby, I kept asking the feeder if he knows how to maintain the point and he kept assuring me that he knows. It was a costly mistake. And I said, that next time I will show him how to maintain the point.
-At another derby, I personally maintained the point on fight day. As usual, the matcher told us to limber and tie, but at tying room, the opponent checked the leg band and brought the error to the matcher who made the mistake. So, we had to change the bird, limber and tie again. But because I maintained the point every hour, the bird did not go off and we won the fight. That was not the end of the suspense. When we dropped the bird before the money fight going for the championship, I noticed the dropping was too wet (stressed from the bird change caused by the leg band error) and the handler had only the soaked corn. I said that if you give that wet feed, the bird will go off point. I dispatched the handler to get any dry corn or feed and do not ever come back without them. Luckily, the handler found the popcorn from the popcorn vendor. We were able to bring back the point and brought the trophy home.
- We can talk and write about how to bring the bird to a point and maintain the point but one has to show you (many times) on how to make them sharp and cutting. Ed
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August 13th, 2006, 08:41 AM
DAGHAN JUD KAAYO SALAMAT bai orientaldelight and bai
i must confess, i too am a disciple of orientaldelight a the other site and have been diligently studying and applying his principles since then. like what eaa has said and
kidd has mentioned, its all about timing. i thought that
every hour (limber and check moisture)as eaa has said
is the key to timing. with hourly check, we could still do
some trouble shooting in case something unusual happens
to our rooster.
in case of stags, which usually are very unstable and
susceptible to many many changes and stresses, i think
we just have to find a breed/cross/line thats early maturing and could handle the stress of selecting, preparing, conditioning, pointing, the environment and
thanks guys, you are always an asset to our sport.
i hope you could talk more on TROUBLE SHOOTING
during fight day
have a nice day.
August 13th, 2006, 10:40 AM
I remember Buwahi mentioning many moons ago on this board that even on big time derbies there are cocks that let out a big spurt or drop at the ring minutes before release. He further relayed that some wins; some not...and that there are no accurate comparison which favors among the two, one who does not and one that do.
I have same observation and conclusion with him but I would still feel comfortable if mine drops very little or none at all.
August 13th, 2006, 11:21 AM
Thumbs UP to ALL !
August 13th, 2006, 12:12 PM
August 13th, 2006, 12:44 PM
The Road to to Success is ALWAYS under construction
August 13th, 2006, 12:48 PM
bottom line is...MOISTURE. just like women. they don't want to fight if the moisture is not right...so do we:lol:
August 13th, 2006, 01:12 PM
Traveling to fight
Cholo, when we were fighting at Copperstate Pit in Arizona, we will win fights but could not go straight. I was confused and depressed. I asked many experience handlers but the one who really gave me the secret to maintaining the point particularly for birds from out-of-state (Florida to California to Arizona) was the pit owner, Doyle Thompson. Doyle suggested that I used electrolyte mix with antibiotic, and to use the same feed and water used in Florida. So, I suggested to the Florida feeder to use the same brand of bottled water and I would use the same brand in California/Arizona. And, it worked and we started winning our better share of the fights and 1 of every 4 derbies. However, when the weather got hot during the summer (over 100 degrees F), the cocks went off point faster and we attributed it to the reaction from nux vomica on very hot days. Again, more questions to experienced feeders and Doyle on how to calm the birds and conserve energy. Air condiitoners and humidifiers were added to equalize the hot days, and also made adjustment to the dosage of NV. Every little things helped including the ban on alcoholic beverage during the fight day which I noticed many entries loss because the team had too much beer and became careless and neglected the important things to do to win the derby. It was big money prizes then to squander (try a minimum of $50K per derby). Ed.
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August 13th, 2006, 01:42 PM
electrolyte mix with antibiotic
EAA indian....nice point. Now my question is, when do you give your electrolytes mix with antibiotic? Are you suppose to give it throughout the whole keep?
August 13th, 2006, 01:45 PM
Anti-biotic? how much? and for mainly what?
August 13th, 2006, 02:47 PM
August 13th, 2006, 02:48 PM
The electrolyte mix should be started during the keep all the way to fight day. Basically, it is to reflenish the cells that would need repairing during the keep and travel. The antibiotic is already in the mix and it is more preventive medication for the birds not to pick up anything that would reduce their immune system during the keep, travel and fight day. The primary plan is to duplicate (mirror) what you give to the bird during keep all the way to fight day and minimize the change that would increase stress due to travel and change of environment-atmosphere. Even train the birds to stay in the night stalls or folding cases (as Filipinos often use) throughout the keep- again the birds should be familiar and comfortable to reduce stress. Stress is the number one cause of birds going over point or could not really achieve pointing. Oh aside from no alcohol beverage, keep the visitors out of the cockhouse (and just let the feeder or handler touch the birds, nobody else). Being very meticulous and strict, produces wins, recognition and continuous financial rewards for hard work and investment. Ed
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August 13th, 2006, 02:52 PM
August 13th, 2006, 08:06 PM
LITTLE THINGS COUNT A LOT
bai eaa and bai od, indeed it is very true that little things
do count a lot. as the saying goes, " one miss you die".
then, we begin to think back...where did we go wrong.
did we give too much ? or did we miss on one thing ?
every derby is a learning experience. there are just too
many variables, too many unexpected things.
knowing how to (theory) point our roosters and the
pointing (actual) itself on fight day will always never
be the same.
i luv this sport.
August 13th, 2006, 08:10 PM
bai eaa and bai od, what are the things you would not
want to miss during fight day in relation to pointing our
August 14th, 2006, 10:59 PM
August 16th, 2006, 11:11 PM
Is it safe to say: Last feeding should be 12 hours before the fight?