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Thread: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

  
  1. #1
    albert c
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    What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    A lot of people said different things of what bloodlines composes this SWEATER FOWLS.

    Some says...it has kelso and Hatch bloodlines running in this cocks veins. Some says, Kelso and brown red. Most of them says YLH and mugs. Which is which?

    And if I got a kelso broodcock cross it with a Brownred broodhen, can I call the offspring SWEATER?

    Need ur input here...thanks.

  2. #2
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    Albert, the basic composition of the sweater line is Hatch and Kelso. And yes, you can call your own breed whatever you want.

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    An article in last months Grit and Steel states that Sweater McGinnis fought a show of Boston Roundhead - Hatch cross cocks that done really well. In fact, so well that some top name breeders at pit side offered him a lot of money for the cocks after each fight. Among the breeders offering money was Walter Kelso, he purchased one of the cocks for $500. 00. Walter sent the cock to Cecil Davis to breed over some pure Kelso hens. Cecil did breed the cock over the Kelso hens, but also bred the daughters back to the cock each year thus creating the Sweater bloodline. They are called Sweaters because the orginial broodcock came from Sweater. Get a copy of last months Grit and Steel, Carol NeSmith wrote the article and its very interesting.

  4. #4
    Underhack
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    yes seems like all this talk about the sweater being a 3/4 kelso and 1/4 hatch is all wrong. Boston blood who would have thought? I seen the same article and said hmmmm lol
    I wonder if this is where the yellow legged mcleans came from the boston?

  5. #5
    ellisgamefowl
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    Well, I'll just be Dam*@#!!!!!!!!!!


    I'm gonna quit listening to all the opinions I read on these dadgum chicken boards. You mean to tell me that Walter Kelso & Cecil Davis bred a CROSSED rooster.................THEN............linebred the pullets back to this "outstanding performing" CROSSED ROOSTER and developed a strain of chickens that whipped the world. I'll just be Dam*@#!!

    THAT is the way I was tought to breed chickens that have been winning a good percentage everywhere we go. Then I get this dadgum computer and start reading that inbreeding is the best way to maintain a family of chickens................so here I go......being the "smart fella" that I am and start setting up brood pens with inbred matings.

    NOW......I don't know which way to go. Stick with the way that's proven to produce W's time and time again......linebreeding outstanding performers. Or go the inbred route and try weeding out undesirable traits. I just don't know anymore......I quit, I give up, roll over and die, maybe become a fisherman or something.

  6. #6
    OakwoodGameFarm
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    Sweater Cecil Davis Version

    Sweater = 1/2 Kelso + 1/4 Boston RH + 1/4 Hatch

    What else do we have? How bout the Roy Brady, Mike Middleton, Dink Fair, Blackwater, etc...

    I guess everyone could make there own concoction and name it the so called sweater. Just a thought.

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    One version of the Sweater might be 1/4 Boston-1/4 Hatch-1/2 Kelso, I don't know. From what I read, the daughters and granddaughters where bred back to the cock so you would actually have:

    first year: 3/8 Boston-3/8 Hatch - 1/4 kelso

    second year: 7/16 Boston-7/16Hatch - 1/8 Kelso and so on and so on.



    Ellis, get this, Jumper's Radios are the result of a crossed Whitehackle ace cock being line bred back also. What do ya think about that???

  8. #8
    ellisgamefowl
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    Here's what I think........I think I know how to breed chickens.......and I'm not ever gonna doubt the breeding practices my mentors tought me again.
    I've always put aside my best performing cocks to breed, no matter how he was bred. But recently, with all my "learning" from these chicken boards I've almost talked myself into switching gears and start inbreeding everything. Nah, nope, not gonna do it! I don't give a flip if my birds look the same or fight the same as long as a high % of them are winners. Some may have had success with inbreeding but I've seen families of chickens ruined by close inbreeding.
    And here's the main reason the story by Carol NeSmith got me so ticked off. I have/had a line of kelso/albanys that are flat out awesome, about a year or more ago I decided to sell them off because they were a crossed line and I have both the kelso and albany blood "pure". This crossed line is/was better than anything I've been able to produce from these two families, it's because I linebred a multiple winning cock that was also a producer. Here's the kicker.......I just sold the last brood cock I have from this line, he's just like his daddy, I had been holding him back to breed myself but I decided to inbreed my so called "pure" chickens instead. Well, I hope my Hercules line will make a statement in the Philippines because thats where they're going in November.

    Its like a statement I remember reading somewhere.......HERE I GO AGAIN, BREEDING THE STORY INSTEAD OF THE CHICKENS!

  9. #9
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    Ellis, I know what you mean. All families came from a cross, do what works for you. The way I see it, crossing bloodlines creates a family, line breeding maintains it. Just think of Lloyd Minor and his fame. I don't know how true this is, but I have been told that Mr. Minor himself did not breed same color to color on purpose. He only bred for success.

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    Ellis,
    How come you're "ticked off" on Carol NeSmith's story of Sweaters, there was a clamor for Blackwaterfarms to give info on this bloodline. Here it is, and published in Grit & Steel and the Gamecock Mag. Written by the MAN, Carol NeSmith, Himself. We should Thank him for coming forward and doing it!

  11. #11
    Senior Member unico's Avatar
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    W. Kelso

    Came across a 1960's issue of the Gamecock or was it Grit and Steel years back and an article on Walter Kelso mentioned that he was actually an outcrosser. In this thread, it was in Cecil Davis' hands that the inbreeding was done. I simply assume that in mentioning W. Kelso as an outcrosser , maybe he belonged to the school of breeders/cockers who prefer breeding unrelated look alike - fight alike fowl to avoid inbreeding degeneration and still maintain looks and fighting style. It was also mentioned as is said here that he paid good money for winning fowl. Much like thoroughbred breeding w/c is breed best to best and hope for the best principle.

    As is said, when we inbreed, the tendency of bringing out the good AS WELL AS the bad traits are equally likely..

  12. #12
    ellisgamefowl
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    Never mind my rant Stripper. That post was a stream of consciences that I should have kept to myself.

    And I'm not "ticked off" at anyone but myself, well I was but I'm over it now.

  13. #13
    Underhack
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    Well sense we are so into genetics nowdays on here it would seem like the boston rh crossed on hatch would throw all yellow legs cocks . I think there must have been more hatch in the bostonside because we know if you cross yellow on green they come yellow and not green and yellow. So maybe these cocks where 3/4 hatch 1/4 boston and Harold wanted to keep the green legged cocks out of them to breed back to the hatch side so he let sweater take the yellow leg fowl that won the main. Maybe now this is where the yellow leg mcleans pops out and has been set as a strain.. Thats a big difference at what everyone thought at first and has went from 3/4 kelso to 3/4 hatch . We thought we had it all right lol. I had even made my own sweaters with a 3/4 kelso 1/4 hatch lol .Who knows how they are really breed to an exact we can guess all we want people back then seen some bad to the bone cocks and when you see cocks like that preform everyone wants them and wants more like them so they breed them . Breed over a good hen that is of a good maintained line of traits you want into that line and breed back to the cock and set as a strain. All fowl are crosses and dont think there are any pure fowl left. Its how you maintain them after you get them where you want them is the hard part and is even harder to do with crossed fowl. With all that said the above is nothing but opinion so take it for whats it worth.

  14. #14
    albert c
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    SWEATER McGUINNIS...

    They said Sweater Mcguinnis was never a breeder himself. How did he got his name on this fabulous cock? Others said that Sweater never knew about this phenomenon, getting his name involve in a cock.

    Sweater has a friend name Flowers if I am not mistaken and they both breed Blueface Hatch. Not the so called Sweater? Pls enlightened.

  15. #15
    Underhack
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    Sweater is the one who got the yellow legged cocks from Harold and won a main with them. When he sold them to people im sure the name just stuck with them like many of my cocks do. They say hey go get that Sweater brood cock meaning the cock that come from Sweater and the name sticks is my guess.

  16. #16
    Member canadian kelso's Avatar
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    sweaters?

    So i guess anybody can infuse other bloodline to the sweaters
    and set them as a strain and name it as his own?
    wow so I guess I'll cross my Sweaters from Toronto to my
    WKelso-Butcher hen and hopefully will get some good rooster.
    I'll name them TOROMONT SWEATERS as from Toronto-Montreal
    Sweaters.lol
    Who know it could be the next wave of Sweaters that will compete in the Big Dome.:lol:

  17. #17
    Underhack
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    If Cecil is the one guy who breed these Sweater type fowl that later turned famous I wonder who was the first one to get these fowl that were breed back to the original cock of Sweaters or should be of Harolds? Did Cecil fight many of these cocks after breed back to the original cock and take the cocking world by storm for a few years and made them into a name to be reckoned with.? The only one I know that made them popular was Carol and never heard about them before him. Was said Carol got his from Odis Chappel and Chappel got his from Sonny Ware. I wonder where Sonny Got his from? . Maybe he got his direct from Cecil? Does anyone know about this?

  18. #18
    Senior Member Vernell V.'s Avatar
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    These birds where really good in the pit along time before Carol got his hands on them. Cecil Davis was an exceptional breeder. Carol and Chris have done a good job maintaining the bloodline, but the basis for success was created by Cecil Davis. Ware and Chappel where successful breeders of this line and are the men that most of this blood came from through out the southerm U.S. Carol, Boles, Barnett, Dink and others have made them very popular due to success at popular LK events, to include the WSC, not to mention what world wide advertising has done for their popularity. Why are they successful, I feel its because they are a bloodline with good all around ability. Fact is: they are a line with good speed, cut, gameness and strength. Most lines lack a little or alot of one of the above and have to be crossed in an effort to of find the complete bird. Another consideration is: selection. What I mean is, you have hundreds of big farms in the U.S. and PI that are breeding this line bacause of Sweater Mania, so, you now thousands of them being produced and fought worldwide. I am not a Sweater nut, but I do maintain a small family of them, my blood came from Mr. Wade and I use them to cross my Hatch on for the gaff and SK. Pure, they win a higher % in the LK than in the gaff for me, but if crossed on my Leiper Hatch, they are world class gaff birds as well.

  20. #20
    albert c
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    1999...


    In 1999...you open every page of of any U.S. Cockfighting Magazines, and you cannot see, or read the word Sweater
    fowls, in a column page or being advertised.

    In the year 2000, a few pop up, then a few more in 2001. It was in 2003, the Sweater fowls took the cockers world in storm. Believe it or not I have two 1999 Gamecock Magazine and the Feathered Warrior, but couldn't find a breeder with a Sweater fowls.

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    Yeah, Albert... don't exactly remember the derby but Sonny Lagon fought DOMS!!! in Araneta Coliseum Derby maybe '97or '98. The most widely circulated picture then of the Sweater and Carol was a Game Feed ads. And Breeders -Francis Lumunsad and Patrick Puno advertised them as Sweater Yellow Legged Hatch in the Ang Sabungeru Mag which later on become The Fighting cock Magazine.

  22. #22
    albert c
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    Believe it or not there's a lot of GENERIC SWEATER IN U.S.A. , meaning bogus...so just be very careful. And so is true in Philippines.

  23. #23
    Senior Member hope1126's Avatar
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  24. #24
    albert c
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Please ... "Chip-in" any more knowledge you got about this so called "SWEATER FOWL" for the benefit of those who have little or no info on this great fowl. Thanks.

  25. #25
    Senior Member correabong's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    i once read but i could be mistaken it started this well known american breeder in america,in the beginning he got as a gift a pair of two fine looking full sister pullet from a well known american breeder which is his close to him then he chase to acquire a related broodstag to those yellow legged pullets which has the same yellow legged.he mate them eventually and had very good winning percentage but he wanted add more gameness in the bird so he got a greenlegged hatch to infuse more gameness.but this master american breeder concentrate only on the yellow legged stags and pullet if theres some green legged came out from the breeding he would not fight them.eventualy the sweater came out as yellow legged as his intention of breeding.but i must mention this master breeder infuse hatch blood couple of times or more just to get the gameness he was looking for.i hope this migth help your research about the domination of this fowl.thnkz

  26. #26
    Senior Member borderlinefowl's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    One of the breeds of gamefowl most in demand today are the “Sweaters”. There are several versions of how they originated. The following acccount of their origin is “straight from the horse’s mouth”. It comes from Johnny Jumper and another respected cocker who knew the parent fowl; when, where and by whom they were bred. The following is their version how the Sweaters originated.

    Sweater McGinnis gave Walter Kelso a yellow legged Hatch cock whose bloodlines are thought to trace back to Harold Brown’s McLean Hatch. Mr. Kelso bred this cock to his Kelso hens and the offspring from the mating proved to be outstanding pit cocks.

    Cecil Davis, who was a friend of Mr. Kelso, walked cocks for him and had access to Mr. Kelso’s best fowl. Cecil got one of the cocks which Mr. Kelso raised from the Sweater McGinnis Hatch cock and his own hens.

    Cecil got this cock from Doc Robinson, who also walked cocks for Mr. Kelso. The cock was yellow legged and pea combed. Cecil bred him to five of his out-and-out Kelso hens. The offspring from this mating were the foundation of the Sweaters. They were called Sweaters because the Hatch cock from Sweater McGinnis was their grandfather. As the above indicates, in breeding, they would be ¾ Kelso-¼ yellow legged Hatch.

    The original Sweaters were bred by Ira Parks, who was Johnny Jumper’s brother-in-law, a very fine man and an excellent breeder of gamefowl. Ira, Johnny and Cecil were at the hub of a group of cockers in northern Mississippi and Tennessee who were friends and cocking partners. Several of this group got Sweaters from the original mating. Some of these friends have bred the Sweaters without addition of outside blood and have them in their purity today. Other breeders have added infusions of other blood to their Sweaters.

  27. #27
    Senior Member borderlinefowl's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    The line of Sweaters which is bringing the breed such popularity today came from Roy Brady, who got some of the first mating of Sweaters, to Sonny Ware, to Odis Chappell, and the Browns of Mississippi. Odis Chappell let a number of friends in addition to, have his Sweaters, so the blood has been distributed rather widely in central Alabama in recent years. It has been excelent blood for all who got it. This line of Sweaters produces occasional green legged offspring, usually pullets. When asked about his, Roy Brady said that at one time some Hatch was bred into this line. This line is said also to carry small amount of Radio blood.

    The Sweaters described in this article are typically orange-red to light red in color, with yellow legs and pea combs. Of interest, however, Dolan Owens of Booneville, Mississippi, acquired some of the early Sweaters and has bred them to come uniformly dark, wine red in color, straight comb and white legged. In looks, these two lines of Sweaters show almost no resemblance. This is an example of how a family of fowl can be bred toward different standards by different breeders and In a few generations the two lines will be like two different breeds.

    Sonny Ware bred some Radio into the Sweaters making them pumpkin in color. Most people like this color better and breed to that end.
    Last edited by borderlinefowl; July 4th, 2009 at 11:15 PM.

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    Member ridgerunner 2000's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by Underhack
    yes seems like all this talk about the sweater being a 3/4 kelso and 1/4 hatch is all wrong. Boston blood who would have thought? I seen the same article and said hmmmm lol
    I wonder if this is where the yellow legged mcleans came from the boston?
    Pure bullhockey.People seem to create things in their mind and after awhile they begin to beleive that it is true.
    CG

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    BLACK WATER FARMS ALABAMA" SWEATER STRAIN" by Carol Nesmith... 2006 Gamecock Magazine.

    Sweater Strain
    By Carol NeSmith, Blackwater Farms, Alabama

    While complying with the request of my friends in the Philippines, Mexico and here at home, I would like to give some history of the Sweater strain of gamefowl since they came into my possession. The story starts about 49 years ago when I first fell in love with the game fowl. Now I am 60 years old and still, I love game fowl as much or more than I ever have. I have bred, fought, fed, bought, healed and handled cocks of many different strains and crosses and have done (probably) as much breeding experimenting as many man my age. It’s my opinion that there is no “one best strain fowl” and not one best feeder either. There are many of both in class “A” and when you go to a derby nowadays for real money, you are sure to meet both of them. The days of a monopoly in the cocking game has passed away because of money and brains in the cocking game.

    continued.....

  30. #30
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    I don’t claim to have originated the best strain of pit fowls in the world or even in Alabama, but the fact that Black Water fowl have won the majority of their fights in hard competition and have kept pace with the best of the cocking people for the last 15 – 20 years under all rules and lengths of gaffs and knives in the Philippines and Mexico is very gratifying. For the last six years I have been out of the game and breeding, but my son Chris has had the honor of carrying on the breeding and fighting the Black Water fowl, and may I say he has done a wonderful job. Our fowl passed the experimental stage and have characteristics bred into them. I fell that with our system of breeding we can hold them at their present standard for years to come. We have several breeds of game fowl at Black Water Farms, now I would like to tell you about the Sweater strain and how they came into my hands. For years I attended the fights at Clear Creek and Pumpkin Valley pits in Alabama and saw these Sweater cocks fought by man named Sonny Ware and anybody who is anybody in the cocking game, know this gentleman from Alabama.

    Sonny and his father were in the game fowl business all of their lives and have had some of the best bloodlines of game fowl. Sonny and I fought against each other at these pits and I had to ask Sonny for some of these yellow leg Sweaters. Because of the fact that we competed against one another, he would not let me have a drop of Sweater blood.

    continue....

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