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Thread: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

  
  1. #211
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    I bumped this up cause of the interesting different points of view. I especially enjoyed Boles contributions among others. I dont agree with everything he says but he is a person knowledgeable of inbreeding.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by RayBoles View Post
    Clickfish: I will go out on a limb and say the people you mentioned and many of the well known old breeders, did not have the knowledge of genetics and the knowledge of proper breeding to know how to lock the genes and make a pure family. I could be proven wrong if some one would publish any documents that stated the process these breeders use to make their pure families. If pure is not important and does not matter, why is it that every thing that is pure is so expensive. Game fowl breeders are the only breeders that can breed just anything, to anything, and call it pure, without any proof of how they were created.
    Pure is different things to different people unfortunately. Mine must be uniform in performance, meaning there fighting BLUE PRINT is exactly the same. They have the same way of thinking, moving forward, moving backward, fainting, stroking, wing use, foot movement and so forth. I could care less if one has yellow legs and another has white.

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  4. #213
    Member cbgamefarm's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Ok mongoose, so lets say your a beginner and you've heard so much about harold brown from friends and who ever so you saved up the money a bought a trio of one of Harold's old lines from a well known breeder. Now your thinking , wow I've obtained a line of fowl ive always wanted. Lets say after a year of breeding his greys you have one off spring that came looking like a pure hatch. Now to a begginer, they might not understand that this is possible because hatch was infused in the grey. Next thing you do is get on here and ask a simple question because your a beginner and your trying to find out if you got ripped off or what.
    This happens alot and people just want to understand thier fowl. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you just lash out at em, not every one breeds elite machines like you so tone it down a notch partner.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by cbgamefarm View Post
    Ok mongoose, so lets say your a beginner and you've heard so much about harold brown from friends and who ever so you saved up the money a bought a trio of one of Harold's old lines from a well known breeder. Now your thinking , wow I've obtained a line of fowl ive always wanted. Lets say after a year of breeding his greys you have one off spring that came looking like a pure hatch. Now to a begginer, they might not understand that this is possible because hatch was infused in the grey. Next thing you do is get on here and ask a simple question because your a beginner and your trying to find out if you got ripped off or what.
    This happens alot and people just want to understand thier fowl. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you just lash out at em, not every one breeds elite machines like you so tone it down a notch partner.
    First thing ALL must know is chickens ain't like AKC dog breeds. That's the biggest problem. Two different goals.
    Forget the beginners. About 80% of people still think this way, when they out right know winning is based on PERFORMANCE.
    You read about any famous breeder and they were constantly utilizing OTHER fowl to streamline there main breed. It's a well known fact. Those old dudes were very secretive and didn't want people knowing how they bred so they would LIE or never discuss there breeding methods. Their are a few on here that know I'm telling the truth but wish I'd shut up about many topics I share. 30 years ago I wouldn't be sharing either. Not when legal. Theirs no money in sharing. I truly enjoy this game and always want too learn more. I've been very fortunate over the last 30 or so years to have friends that SHARE their knowledge with me. They don't share normally. It's just always been that way. What blows my mind is people say they want too learn but in reality they have a preference too sticking with the romantic side of gamefowl.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    First thing ALL must know is chickens ain't like AKC dog breeds. That's the biggest problem. Two different goals.
    Forget the beginners. About 80% of people still think this way, when they out right know winning is based on PERFORMANCE.
    You read about any famous breeder and they were constantly utilizing OTHER fowl to streamline there main breed. It's a well known fact. Those old dudes were very secretive and didn't want people knowing how they bred so they would LIE or never discuss there breeding methods. Their are a few on here that know I'm telling the truth but wish I'd shut up about many topics I share. 30 years ago I wouldn't be sharing either. Not when legal. Theirs no money in sharing. I truly enjoy this game and always want too learn more. I've been very fortunate over the last 30 or so years to have friends that SHARE their knowledge with me. They don't share normally. It's just always been that way. What blows my mind is people say they want too learn but in reality they have a preference too sticking with the romantic side of gamefowl.
    What still sticks in my mind has to do with dogs. A AKC papered hunting dog whose family hasn't hunted in a 100 years vs someone's hunting dogs who have never stopped hunting. Same type dog, same hunt, but notice different looks.
    Breeeding to performance and the look will fade while performance will enhance.
    Breed too look instead of performance. Will always favor the look.
    You can not put ACE hunting dogs into a AKC beauty competition. See how many people do that. My point is if you breed to both goals, you'll FAIL on both ends.
    Only so much room at the top of the genetic pyramid.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; December 15th, 2016 at 09:49 PM.

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  10. #216
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Good morning mongoose. Didnt think you'd reply that fast. So im just curious, are you saying that you cannot breeed good looking chickens, that look the way they are suppose to and perform on a top level. I know ALOT of men including myself that can. Im just saying

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by cbgamefarm View Post
    Good morning mongoose. Didnt think you'd reply that fast. So im just curious, are you saying that you cannot breeed good looking chickens, that look the way they are suppose to and perform on a top level. I know ALOT of men including myself that can. Im just saying
    Do u really think the original breeder made them that way?

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Do u really think the original breeder made them that way?
    oh, sorry (where my manners). Good morning sir. How are you this fine morning?

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    I was about to ask where was your manners lol. I dont think the intentions of most breeders was to make a beautiful bird that could flat out do everything ,but some did and sold them, so to answer the question, yes. Pretty simple. Do you think they didn't? Ive got alot of old grit and steel and gamecock books all the way back to the 40's maybe even 30's and ive seen some nice fowl in those books. None looked like a turd with legs, I'll say that.

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by cbgamefarm View Post
    I was about to ask where was your manners lol. I dont think the intentions of most breeders was to make a beautiful bird that could flat out do everything ,but some did and sold them, so to answer the question, yes. Pretty simple. Do you think they didn't? Ive got alot of old grit and steel and gamecock books all the way back to the 40's maybe even 30's and ive seen some nice fowl in those books. None looked like a turd with legs, I'll say that.
    Well, you do make a point but your point has some flaws. Most of us DONT make a successful bloodline. So We know nothing about it. Can people (who never made a bloodline) continue a bloodline? My experience is yes and "no". Mostly no. They always change the blueprint of the bloodline, either through incorrect selection or infusing. (Some choose right with infusion) and thats great.
    Too much inbreeding. You loose health and infusing changes the blue print. (Usually in a negative way). I hear alot about people who say "their no good pure" BUT cross them..... I guarantee u the original breeder didnt set out to do this. Only way you know how to gage what u got is good is too see it perform. There are "perpetuators" that do good out there but to me if they cant show good straight bred, how do you know your STEERING them correctly.

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Well knowing your fowl for many many years will tell you if your steering them in the best direction. Thanks for the lesson in "uncertainty, maybe, not sure ,some do some don't) lol!! I'm just yanking your chain buddy

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by cbgamefarm View Post
    Well knowing your fowl for many many years will tell you if your steering them in the best direction. Thanks for the lesson in "uncertainty, maybe, not sure ,some do some don't) lol!! I'm just yanking your chain buddy
    No worries, yank away lol. And your right. It is uncertain. I know men with tuff fowl and there's nothing "pure" about them, when i was younger i thought less of their fowl but now i know better. Oh and you couldnt buy them. "There not for sale". These guys are stingy with there mongrals. I wonder why.

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Performance testing...you judge the merits of broodfowl by the performance of their offspring.

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    Performance testing...you judge the merits of broodfowl by the performance of their offspring.
    Ive been waiting for someone to say that. Now first and foremost i dont think your wrong ( if it works for U do it!), BUT I remind myself of the fact do i think master breeders SEEKED this method to prove their fowl?
    Many Maintainance breeders use your method cause we dont know specifically what the original breeder bred for. We do know the blood is there. Maintainance breeders utilize visual looks to maintain what was once "secondary" to the original master breeder. The performance "blue print" actually designed the looks. Many performance characteristic "dropped off" the top of the genetic pyramid. Thats why their no good straight bred but the genes are still there, especially when crossed. Another family "fills in" the gaps of under achieving.

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    Senior Member vizzard n tassl's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    This is probably a stupid question but if they are tighter bread you think there is more consistently in there crosses than breeds that are just a bunch crosses put together


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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by vizzard n tassl View Post
    This is probably a stupid question but if they are tighter bread you think there is more consistently in there crosses than breeds that are just a bunch crosses put together


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    i think so. Prepotency tends to be in inbred families.

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Less phenotype variance in tight bred fowl.


    Quote Originally Posted by vizzard n tassl View Post
    This is probably a stupid question but if they are tighter bread you think there is more consistently in there crosses than breeds that are just a bunch crosses put together


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by kogmohon View Post
    yellow birchins whitehackle....and what is the jumper radio broodcock doing at the nesmith yard???sightseeing???
    Could it be Pumpkin Hulsey making them Orange ?

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by borderlinefowl View Post
    One of the breeds of gamefowl most in demand today are the “Sweaters”. There are several versions of how they originated. The following acccount of their origin is “straight from the horse’s mouth”. It comes from Johnny Jumper and another respected cocker who knew the parent fowl; when, where and by whom they were bred. The following is their version how the Sweaters originated.

    Sweater McGinnis gave Walter Kelso a yellow legged Hatch cock whose bloodlines are thought to trace back to Harold Brown’s McLean Hatch. Mr. Kelso bred this cock to his Kelso hens and the offspring from the mating proved to be outstanding pit cocks.

    Cecil Davis, who was a friend of Mr. Kelso, walked cocks for him and had access to Mr. Kelso’s best fowl. Cecil got one of the cocks which Mr. Kelso raised from the Sweater McGinnis Hatch cock and his own hens.

    Cecil got this cock from Doc Robinson, who also walked cocks for Mr. Kelso. The cock was yellow legged and pea combed. Cecil bred him to five of his out-and-out Kelso hens. The offspring from this mating were the foundation of the Sweaters. They were called Sweaters because the Hatch cock from Sweater McGinnis was their grandfather. As the above indicates, in breeding, they would be ¾ Kelso-¼ yellow legged Hatch.

    The original Sweaters were bred by Ira Parks, who was Johnny Jumper’s brother-in-law, a very fine man and an excellent breeder of gamefowl. Ira, Johnny and Cecil were at the hub of a group of cockers in northern Mississippi and Tennessee who were friends and cocking partners. Several of this group got Sweaters from the original mating. Some of these friends have bred the Sweaters without addition of outside blood and have them in their purity today. Other breeders have added infusions of other blood to their Sweaters.
    I knew all the men mentioned in these posts except never met Mr. Parks and your post is closer to the story I always heard. Two points I would make> Harold's YL Hatch had RH blood in it and the O&O Kelsos were 1/4 Hatch.

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  29. #230
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Sonny Ware bred Pine Albany in some of his Sweaters. I had the Pines several yrs. and when you bred them tight the Pumpkin color would show up in cocks and hens along with the white in wings and tail. Pretty sure Carol got some of this blood.
    Last edited by RHman1026; July 14th, 2020 at 04:56 AM.

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    I knew all the men mentioned in these posts except never met Mr. Parks and your post is closer to the story I always heard. Two points I would make> Harold's YL Hatch had RH blood in it and the O&O Kelsos were 1/4 Hatch.
    Ive seen many farms although they werent advertising them too much have pea comb YL Albany on the side when they were pushing their Sweater bloodline. Didnt Cardinal Club Kelso have a good amount of Hatch blood in there RHMan? I read alot on the Sweater line years back and recall it being a 3x4th Kelso and 1x4 YL Hatch. Now the lines that make those breeds up are beyond me. I think CNesmith used some YL Hatch that was bred back to what he had that was called Sweater based on what I read to make his some 30 years back.
    SF

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
    Ive seen many farms although they werent advertising them too much have pea comb YL Albany on the side when they were pushing their Sweater bloodline. Didnt Cardinal Club Kelso have a good amount of Hatch blood in there RHMan? I read alot on the Sweater line years back and recall it being a 3x4th Kelso and 1x4 YL Hatch. Now the lines that make those breeds up are beyond me. I think CNesmith used some YL Hatch that was bred back to what he had that was called Sweater based on what I read to make his some 30 years back.
    SF
    1x4 = 4

    1/4 = 0.25

    i'm sure most know you meant the later... still... and you tried to give lecture/advice on the economy and investment... bwahahaha.

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    Sonny Ware bred Pine Albany in some of his Sweaters. I had the Pines several yrs. and when you bred them tight the Pumpkin color would show up in cocks and hens along with the white in wings and tail. Pretty sure Carol got some of this blood.
    Carol certainly got this blood (a trio) from Sonny Ware after years of trying... but he sent the hens to Gene Brown to breed to his Stuart YLH, and set the world on fire... forgot how he bred the cock from that trio... later on, he and Nene Abello (spelling?) went to Ray Hoskin to get his YLH to add to them.
    Last edited by newtogame2; July 14th, 2020 at 07:11 AM.

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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Good blast from the past thread. Anything with Ray Boles and his "gene locking" schtick is always good for a few laughs.

    I think everyone thats been truly successful with sweater has and or had infused outside blood. Sorta like George Lay told me that his lacy was heavy in mcclanahan blood from Bam Webster. I had George's Sweater for years. And they were in the blood of a great many breeders who made a name for themselves with sweaters. But all the ones that did so did it with added blood. Primarily stuart/stewart yl hatch and albany depending on who we are talking about.

    I heavily inbred the lacy from George a few years and they started coming heavily spangled and resembled asil crosses. Even though george preferred to breed to the dark side with his Lacy.

    So sweater or anything else are nothing like the originals and never will be. Much like those aforementioned lacy they can be drastically changed in short order by the choices of the owner who has them. I bred to the spangle lacy side and nobody wouldve believed in less than 6 years I had "pure george lay lacy" with nothing added that looked absolutely nothing like George's. I also had the same Brad the way George did and they looked almost identical to his. Same fowl same yard. Two distinctly different looking and acting set of one strain

    This of course occurs the same way with sweater or anything else. So the original make up of any strain is really only good as trivia or just for ****s and giggles. You could take the same exact stuff that a strain is made of and never be able to duplicate it exactly. Too many variables

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  36. #235
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by HomeCreek View Post
    Good blast from the past thread. Anything with Ray Boles and his "gene locking" schtick is always good for a few laughs.

    I think everyone thats been truly successful with sweater has and or had infused outside blood. Sorta like George Lay told me that his lacy was heavy in mcclanahan blood from Bam Webster. I had George's Sweater for years. And they were in the blood of a great many breeders who made a name for themselves with sweaters. But all the ones that did so did it with added blood. Primarily stuart/stewart yl hatch and albany depending on who we are talking about.

    I heavily inbred the lacy from George a few years and they started coming heavily spangled and resembled asil crosses. Even though george preferred to breed to the dark side with his Lacy.

    So sweater or anything else are nothing like the originals and never will be. Much like those aforementioned lacy they can be drastically changed in short order by the choices of the owner who has them. I bred to the spangle lacy side and nobody wouldve believed in less than 6 years I had "pure george lay lacy" with nothing added that looked absolutely nothing like George's. I also had the same Brad the way George did and they looked almost identical to his. Same fowl same yard. Two distinctly different looking and acting set of one strain

    This of course occurs the same way with sweater or anything else. So the original make up of any strain is really only good as trivia or just for ****s and giggles. You could take the same exact stuff that a strain is made of and never be able to duplicate it exactly. Too many variables
    You aint going to make many friends with that kinda honest talk. You just dont know how to keep them “pure as the driven snow”. Lol.

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  38. #236
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    Re: What Basically is the Bloodline of a SWEATER FOWL?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
    Ive seen many farms although they werent advertising them too much have pea comb YL Albany on the side when they were pushing their Sweater bloodline. Didnt Cardinal Club Kelso have a good amount of Hatch blood in there RHMan? I read alot on the Sweater line years back and recall it being a 3x4th Kelso and 1x4 YL Hatch. Now the lines that make those breeds up are beyond me. I think CNesmith used some YL Hatch that was bred back to what he had that was called Sweater based on what I read to make his some 30 years back.
    SF
    Yes, I think so. I think it was Stewart YL when he and Gene Brown were showing some together. Don't know about the CC fowl. I did read that a mating was made using some asil blood. No other info. about the CCs. Johnny Jumper and Cecil Davis partnered for several yrs. and remained friends after that. While they were partners they were fighting some cocks that looked the typical pumpkin Sweater color. The ffirst family of these cocks were called "Cecils". In time the mating must have been changed a little and a short time later the Sweater name popped up. Also a better than 95% chance 3 White Claret hen walked thru the Sweater brood pens.

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