October 29th, 2006, 01:20 AM
Nene Araneta's GRIFFIN CLARET
Thunderbird Entry of Jorge "Nene" Araneta with Roger Roberts, during the World Slasher Cup January 2006 released the finest "pure" GRIFFIN CLARETS.
These CLARETS are so good, that they easily kill the oponent in one buckle. It has the best cutting ability that I have seen.
Can anyone share the History or Origin of the Griffin Claret?
Pictures will be much appreciated.
October 29th, 2006, 04:27 AM
CNM16 Griffin Claret - Won Unscratch in 1 Single Shot
RA-PW Griffin Blended by CNM16 Farms -
October 29th, 2006, 07:29 AM
good looking claret,is it a Ray Alexander?
October 29th, 2006, 08:50 AM
November 1st, 2006, 08:40 AM
I came accross a write up about Elmer Griffin before. He's one of the many who used to walk cocks for Col. Madigin before but never got a hen from Madigin. Every year a new stag is sent by Madigin to Elmer G. farm to run loose with Elmer's hen. In the late fall, all the cocks in walks will be harvested leaving behind some quail size chicks in these farm walks. Elmer will keep these young pullets sired by Madigin's cock. He did this year after year grading up to Madigin's stock and later set them as his own strain of clarets. The griffins are mostly yellow legged, maybe Elmer was selecting to the yellow legged standard, only he knew.
Madigin walked as many as 500 stags from southern Ontario, Canada down to northern and central New York and until he retired, hundreds of cocks on walks were never harvested.
November 1st, 2006, 08:47 AM
That picture looks like a straight comb claret but it is yellow legged. I have never seen a yellow legged claret or roundhead. It must have some sort of maybe Hatch infusion unique to Griffin himself.
November 1st, 2006, 08:57 AM
griffins are mostly yellow legged.
Boston Roundheads are yellow legged when they set foot in the soil of America. Until now, boston roundheads are mostly yellow legged.
November 1st, 2006, 09:38 AM
November 2nd, 2006, 12:50 AM
How do you know that they were yellow legged when they set foot in America?
I always thought that Roundheads were bred here in America crossing Whitehackles and Asils by Allen Roundhead. Thatís what I read.
November 2nd, 2006, 01:45 AM
from History of Game Strains....
By: Frank Norton, of Boston, Mass.
In 1864, John Harwood was head stevedore at East Boston docks for the Cunard Ship. Co. I lived next door to Harwood. In that year, one of the steamers brought over from England a trio of gamefowl. The address and shipping bill of these fowls were lost. The company kept the fowls for about three months and then gave them to Harwood, he paying the shipping charges. Harwood gave the fowl to his friend, Ned Gill, who bred and fought them. I knew Ned Gill and often saw these fowls fight, and frequently saw the broodyards. They were called Gill Roundheads or Boston Roundheads. They were light red fowls with black breasts, more or less streaked with ginger. The hens are light wheaten color. All had yellow legs. After Ned Gill died, John McCoy of Marblehead, Mass. got some of the Gill fowl and crossed them with John Stone's fowl. McCoy was a very succesful cocker in his day in the neighborhood of Boston. The imported trio had small round heads, pea combs, and heavy feathers.
By: Stephen Madden, Salem, Mass.
This story about the Boston Roundheads was told to me by my dad who was an engineer wharf builder and worked for a man named Norton. A shipment of fowl came into east Boston to the Cunard dock. No one claimed them. A man by the name of Ned Gill who ran a road house at a place called Sagus, near Cliftondale, got some of them. So did a racetrack man from Lowell, named Mather. Pat Connor of Boston got some as did Jerry Quirk of Worchester, Mass. John McCoy of Marblehead got some from Mather and some from Ned Gill. AGerman from Matapan got some as well as Thomas Noon of Boston. The shipment was said to have come from Ireland, but no one was sure about this.
November 2nd, 2006, 01:57 AM
the first Asil was brought by Sir Francis Drake from China to England on 1500 and crossing to the English games also made on same year. The Englishmen always doubt the worth of this cross and when made as a strain considers them as gamefowls with questionable gameness.
November 2nd, 2006, 03:02 AM
Who knows. But sure.
So how did Allen and Judge Lacy got them?
And what was that story about the Whithacles and Asils making the genetic makeup?
Isnít it true that it is called Roundheads because that is the last name of the originator?
November 3rd, 2006, 12:47 AM
Allen Roundheads/Origin of Roundheads
By: Vasco Siebert (1920's)
Here is data on the Roundheads, a major portion of it came from Mr. Allen's pen.
He says, To begin I might explain my first Roundheads who were black and black red fowls, black legs, black eyes, Warhorse type in color. I got my first Roundhead cock from Col. F.E. Grist, of Fort Gaine Georgia. This cock I heard afterwards was bred by John McCoy, Marblehead Massachusetts.
I attended a tournament on 1890 in Mont., Alabama. Col. had over 100 cocks there, among them was a roundhead cock. Col. Grist had fought him 8 times . He fought him twice in Montgomery without removing the heels. He never got touched. I tried to buy the cock but he would not sell. Later I wired him for a bunch of cocks. In the lot was this Roundhead. I fought him twice in one night in Monroe Louisiana without removing the hells. He never got touched.
I immediately wired Col. Grist to ship me a whole yard of Roundheads which he did. I bred the old McCoy Roundhead, a 12 time winner, over the Judge Dan Gordon Hens, hence the Allen dark leg Roundheads. The old McCoy was black red, dark red eyes, dark leg and speckled all over. I fought these cocks all over the country before I ever heard of these Saunders Roundheads. (Mr. Allen crossed the Dr. Saunders Roundheads over his old stock as related by him as follows):
Nearly 30 years ago (approx. 1902) the late Dr. Fred Saunders, of Salem, Mass. wrote me to send him 2 hens, dark fowl, describing exactly what he wanted, for short heel fighting. After giving the matter my most careful thought, Mrs. Allen and I drove out to the Hyman Brood Yard. I caught two of the best hens, sent them to Dr. Saunders and told him there was no charge. He answered, allen, you seem so nice, I would like to lend you one of my broodcocks for 60 days with the understanding he returned at that time. I wrote him to ship the broodcock, and that I would comply with his request.
The cock came. He was a black breasted red Roundhead, yellow legs, white in wing and tails, and red eyed. I could see deep down in his eyes, one of the best breed game cockcs I have ever seen. The quils in his feathers were red. (Mr. Allen went into detail as to how he placed this Saunders Roundhead cock over his first Col. Grist hens and old Travelers.)
Old White Leg and old Yellow Leg from this yard must have won 10 battles and died a natural death on the broodyards. Two of them were fought by Dr. Saunders and me in a number of mains. They are the most wonderful cocks I have ever seen. They have a brains of a Corbet. Not a gaff was ever pulled out of Old Yellow Leg and Old White Leg.
After discovering the wonderful cocks they were, I tried to get more from Dr. Saunders but he did not want me to have them since I sold fowl and he did not want to meet them, his own fowl.
Mr. Allen says the history of the origin of these roundheads were lost in a fire when his house burned down in Port Gibson, Mississippi in 1920. Mr. Allen qoute from memory wht Dr. Saunders says, as follows: "I sent a man in Vermont $5.00 for two stags and two pullets - but out of two different hens. One of these pullets showed a Roundhead. I sent back to the same man and got a cock, full brother to the daddy and bred to the Roundhead hen for as long as he lived. Then each season I bred a son to her for as long as she lived. The daddy to the above was a Dennis Mahoney cock, as well as the cock I bought. They are the best cock ever to cross the Mason-Dixon going either way, and Allen, you will find it that way. When I lose these fowls, I am done with the game. Yours truly, Dr. Fred Saunders. (I, the writer am adding that these Roundheads have been bred father to daughter, then to grand daughter and son to mother, etc. for approximately 85 years according to my records and previous history).
Mr. Allen further writes: I walked a great many cocks for Dr. Saunders and exchange and loaned him cocks to fight and finally afterwards persuaded to send me more of his full Saunders. He sent Old Speck (a spangle). The he mated a full yard of his Roundheads and bred him in a barn loft in Salem, Mass., for our mutual benefit. He sent me 5 stags out of the mating , one a spangle was bred to the old dark stock. They were wonderful cocks and beat everybody in the country. The following season, Speck was bred to a yard of his own daughters. The cocks were fought in the tournament in Montgomery, Alabama, and won the first money 9 out of 11 fights. They were fought all over the country and pronounced and greatest cocks ever seen in the South. Old Red Eye, Little Red Eye, Bull Neck Sr., Skin Head, Old Buck Eye and a number of others were never whipped and died on the broodyards. They were too smart for other cocks. For nearly 30 years, we lost only two mains. (Mr. Allen gives the reason for losing these two mains is that they were fought in San Antonio without first being acclimatized to a high altitude as were the World Olympics in Mexico City).
As the writer (1977) of this article I can say that when 30 years ago I discarded all other fowls because our Roundheads were superior, the Clarets were hardest to give up. These Clarets were largely used in the two mains Mr. Allen lost; though the Roundheads beat the Clarets consistently for many many years. But we still like the smart branch of the Clarets, next to the Roundheads.
Mr. Allen was brilliant man. - Once he was mayor of his town, three times clerk of the court of Claiborne County, Miss., clerk of the County Board of Commissioner, county auditor, county treasurer, clerk of the pesion board, etc. But his greatest talent ws not in politics but his ability to recognize a promise or a change when he spotted the super ability of the Roundheads, thus revolutionizing cock breeding.
Now to my knowledge, the above is not a complete enlightenment of the Roundheads, as I know the picture of the first Allen Ropundheads of over 75 years agoin our books, "The Gamebirds" on page 9 is that of an Asil. Further, our roundheads occasionally come oriental afetr having been inbred father to daughter, to garnd-daughter and the hens bred the same way, and show the deadly heel, brilliance and style of no other fowl.
The Million Dollar Bargain Cock ws bred 7/8 to his own blood. The Great Spangle won 2 fights as a 6 year old for a neigbor cocker. Bambo, the son of the cock " Col. Allen", was bred and bred over his offsprings many times. All our Roundheads are deeply inbreed then linebred to other lines of the family, and still come larger, smarter and gamer. All our fowls are closely related and our Bambo's direct descendants come darker. But 95% come black breasted reds, red eye, pea combs, white and yellow legs, just as they did 30 years ago. A dark red or a spangle, or slight pumpkin does not hurt.
we want ot share our Roundheads with people who especially like this particular kind of fowl. For these reasons we offer the following: have the foundation for deep inbreeding without loosing strength and size. Cool, calm, collected, can win with a single stroke and a good sound fighters up to old age. We do not breed fowls who getscut or get excited.. some people do not like this type of fowls and are happier with other kinds.
We have never had a complaint about the record but sometimes have other complaints such as fighting style. Nevertheless, if you have the best straight comb fowl available and the best of everything else, you can meet the big time and break even with anybody and it makes no difference who - except the man who shows the best Roundheads. This is why we got rid of all other fowls over 30 years ago.
November 3rd, 2006, 05:05 AM
I read a different story. I'll post it when I get a chance.
Thanks for sharing.
November 3rd, 2006, 09:31 PM
From: Mr. A.J. Jarrets's copy of Allen's 1909 Catalogue
Allen's Yellow Legged Roundheads: For my original cock of this family, I'm indebted to Dr. Fred Saunders of Salem, Mass. I paid him for the highest price ever paid for a gamecock in America. I took this cock and bred him to a Grist yellow leg Grady, raised four stags and seven pullets, bred the old cock back to his daughter each season, linebreeding him until his offsprings were only 1/8 and 1/16 Grady and the balance Roundhead. By this method I increased size, station, and bone and muscle. They nearly came all yellow legged and beaks, round heads, often white in wing and tail, bright reds and sometimes a spangle. The old cock was a spangle. I then got from Mr. John M. Vines, of Jefferson Texas, a very old cocker, three hens of his old in-bred Cripple Tony family. These hens were dark fowl and legs. I bred the original Roundhead to these hens. The cross was a hit, and kept breeding the old cock to his daughters each season, breeding to the Roundhead side. This stock often throws a dark leg pullet or stag, coming of course from the Cripple Tony blood.
This family of Round heads is one of the greatest on earth. I have never been able to supply the demands for these fowls. They are dodgers and very smart cocks. Like the prize fighter of today, they use their heads as well as their feet and they have won more mains and tournaments than any cocks known to the South.
I never leave the pit with one of these cocks as long as he is alive. No better description can be given of these cocks than that given by Hon. Sol P. McCall, of New Orleans, Allison Wells and New Orleans.
They come white and yellow leg and run from 4.08 to 6.08 (lbs). The hens of this family are the smallest of any gamefowl known to me.
Signed. W.L. Allen
November 3rd, 2006, 10:40 PM
Alex-g1 Thanks for the brief history of this breed.
November 3rd, 2006, 10:54 PM
Good post Alex_G, naghalokat ka naman sa baol baol mo siguro ay..hehehe.. but that's a good info.
November 3rd, 2006, 11:44 PM
No work subong. So nothing to do, to kill the time and boredom.
November 5th, 2006, 01:39 AM
ORIGIN OF OTHER ROUNDHEADS:
By: Vasco Siebert
Most strains of Roundheads came rom the Allen Roundheads. Judge Lacy of Jasper, Walker County, Alabama, made his Roundheads from the Allen's. I watched these Lacy Roundheads fight in the 1940's for 2 or 3 years in North Alabama and Tennessee, without losing hardly any fights. Burnell Shelton, Mr. Allen's brother-in-law, made the Sheltons out of the Allens. Many came pumpkin colored and were superb. The Lundy Roundheads were made from the Allen Roundheads and were perpetuated by W.T. Johnson, of Americus Georgia. Nobody could whip W.T. Johson's Lundy Roundheads even after his death. The Dennard Roundheads were the only entry ever to win the Orlando Tournament without a loss. The black breasted reds with straight combs were largely made from the Allen Roundheads by breeding to the straight comb side. I was never a cocker but I have seen full shows of black breasted reds called the Straight Comb Roundheads. The trouble is the breeder failed to breed back to the Roundhead side as was the rule.
Today there are other Roundheads not closely related to the Allen Roundheads but they looked like mine. The are breeding Asil or Allen Roundhead grades and are widely used and are good. Most of the big time strains carry Allen Roundhead or Asil blood. These Roundheads are good in their absolute purity but will improve most families or crosses.
Around about 1950's the Roundheads were fought less because an unspoken gentlemen's agreement. Most people do not like the style of Roundheads. Since anybody could win with Roundheads, it was unsportsmanlike to use them though they were still unbeatable.
Most fowl today have roundhead blood or asil blood. Most is hidden under a straight comb. Back in the 1940's, I became the first large exporter of fowls. If you check the two middle pages of Grit and Steel and the two middle pages of The Gamecock, you will find that I have two pages in each magazine. Other big shippers sent me their fowls to ship without my permission, anmd I shipped them anyway. I had to use some of the most ingenious methods to get delivery. To get orders to the Philippines and Guam, they had to go through Hawaii port of entry but they could not get out. So, I got a working agreement with the Air Line Manager in Honolulu to intercept and reroute them outside the port of entry. We embargoed against Mexican beef, then they embargoed against our livestock which could not enter. So, I wired a friend in Juarez, Mexico and asked if he could get back my fowls across and reroute them to Mexico City. He contacted an International Air Line for me who flew them over without a declaration.
I Owned an large business, its Corporate buildings and am its banker and do not need money. However, I found it to be unwise to give things for free as people scorn them.
If you want good fowls, it does not take many of our kind.
November 5th, 2006, 03:18 AM
My Yellow Leg Claret
Got a Yellow Leg Claret offspring and I asked the Breeder itself:
I'm glad you are having success with the Moore Clarets.The Moores both white and yellow leg are the same bloodlines. The yellow legs came out after years of inbreeding and I bred one family to this trate. I breed the two lines together then bred to what ever side as an outcross. My original fowl came from a man in Texas named J.I.Hewitt. He fed for Walter kelso and also fed cocks for Murphy at Orlando. He got his H.H. Moores from Clarance Tucker in Provo Ut. These cocks won two big ten cock LK derbies at Mid America for me.
I also got a family of Moores from a gentleman named Baker also here in TX. he got his directly from Buck Moore. They were the Wheatfield family. I also bought out Carol Higginson from Maple Mt. farms. These Clarets of Carol's also came from Clarance Tucker. Your Clarets contain the blood from all three of these gentlemen.
Your friend Mike Everett
Texas cocker for over forty years of Axell TX.,USA
November 15th, 2006, 05:19 AM
One Of The Best Giffin Claret Is Own By One Guy In Chicago.
His Name Is Rey. I Got My Claret From The Same Group Where Rey
Got His. My Friend Put A Show Of Griffin Crosses W-15 Out Of 17.
Hawaiian (bayou 2006)
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