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Thread: When is brother & sister mating necessary?

  
  1. #1
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    When is brother & sister mating necessary?

    When is brother & sister mating necessary?

    I recently bought pair of chicken (brother & sister) who have good body conformation, well balanced posture and has power. I realized later that I wanted to used it as my future baseline blood, so I wanted to produce more of its likeness especially hen. In order to attain my objective, I decided to mate them - brother and sister. Is my action correct?

    Any inputs will greatly be appreciated.

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  3. #2
    talahib747
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    you hit the mark bro!! go for it!!

  4. #3
    christian
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    re:when is brothers and sisters mating.....

    d ba maxadong malapit ung magkapatid kung sakali?baguhan dn po ko, just wana know.

  5. #4
    Senior Member cocker122563's Avatar
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    brother and sister mating is the most extreme form of inbreeding. you have equal chances of getting good and bad results through this kind of breeding. if you are not quite adept with this method, you are liable to waste your time, money and effort. so plan well. and proper selection too!
    just my opinion.

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  7. #5
    blackhatch
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    kakmeyt,

    5 or 6 generation of offspring inbreeding is one process of separating the mixed bloodlines and make it again pure or full bloodline.

    if you want to produce a battlecock, do a cross breeding and the 1st generation is the best battlecock you'll have.

    or if you want to maintain the higher bloodline (like for example roundhead....do an outcross breeding of pure roundhead broodhen with a cross battlecock roundhead broodcock.

    the 1st generation of line breed (father and daughter mating) was also a nice battlecross.

    for me (outcross and cross breeding) was my process of producing battlecocks.

    good luck!

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  9. #6
    talahib747
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    as i have said before, if you want to replicate those pair. brother-sister mating is necessary in order to have more breeding stocks next year. proper selection is needed too. select the best and cull the rest.

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  11. #7
    Member romo1409's Avatar
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    Brother & Sister mating

    I would only do it once just to maintain the particular bloodline and and use them for crossing to produce battle fowls.

  12. #8
    tatisbau
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    brother-sister mating

    it all depends how solid your fowl is. in a very close mating, the incidence of producing very good OR very bad offsprings goes up exponentially - concentration of like-genes. the chances of producing either is the same. in simpler terms, either you end up with brainless chickens or the best that the line could ever produce, but never better than what you started with. nicks are only produced if somewhere above the line, genes for a particular trait existed - mutation is another story. this is a common misconception among inexperience breeders who line/inbreed. inbred stocks doesn't necessarily produce better fowls, it only increases the predictabilty of the outcome (offsprings) - whether good or bad. as was repeated in previous postings, proper selection is the key. unfortunately, there are far more intangibles to consider in proper selection. fighting style is only one tangible, color of course is another but it doesn't help you win - the rest are intangibles (health, heart, gameness, intelligence, etc.)

    i would rather recommend infusing another line and breed uncle-niece and aunt-nephew, and so on down the line until you get to 1/16, then mate both lines. it will take some time and effort, but whoever said pursuit of perfection is easy?

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  14. #9
    tatisbau
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    brother-sister mating, part 2

    btw, did i mention producing solid seed fowl, above culling ruthlessly and through trial and error, years of breeding also involves sums of money? there is simply no shortcut.

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    Senior Member ROM_PH's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Agree

    I totally agree with tatisbau. You minimize your risk producing worthless chickens using uncle/niece or aunt/nephew relationships.

    The main idea of culling or the painstaking selection process is to replicate and isolate the best trait in the line that you are breeding. But if you simply want to produce pure (for the sake of producing pure), then go ahead with whatever brother-sister, father-daugther, mother-son, and other incestous relationships you can think of --- hahaha!

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  18. #11
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    line breeding

    I would suggest that you find a good family that you have access to and breed to each. Just breed it back out of them. Just make sure that they are similiar to the fowl you purchased. Then breed the offspring of the hen to the cock and vice versa. From the 3/4 blood pick the best and breed into each other. Breed back to the opposite side. The most important thing to consider is to ONLY breed the best. Quality should always be number one.

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  20. #12
    Senior Member Bty Hunter's Avatar
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    That is why true "pure" bred fowls command exhorbitant cost..

    Some of the breeders here in the states spend their lifetimes perfecting their lines as suited by their taste. Linebreeding was a method personally instructed to me by the breeder whom i got my first pure trio..Setting up a group of fowls to become strain is possible after all where do we think all this various "modern" gamefowl breeds came from..Is is not but from various bloodlines of old.

    Ruthless culling is a must, developing the eye for the good material is imperative, patience..well we should have plenty of this. Like we have two full batch of 3/4's that will be good again for chicken soup this season..Enjoy!

    And another thing: THe breeder told me not to try to perpetuate a line ALL by yourself..SHARE.. Like what do Glen Justiss, Johnny Moore, Johnny Jumper, Dink Fair and John Michalski have in common..They breed some same bloods and ask each other for fowls of the same line for reinfusion every now and then for line vigor. NOw that is something some of us may not realize. :hippie:

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  22. #13
    tsampoy
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    fowl swapping is something filipino gamecock breeders need to take into consideration,hahahhaha.you`re right preng brgy.hunter.

  23. #14
    3 Oaks
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    ferdief,

    brother and sister mating is a very intensive form of inbreeding, which is normally used by breeders as a last resort n order to save a family. Of course, the underlying assumption is that the family is worth saving. Afterall, inbreeding, and for that matter, breeding, has for its purpose the perpetuation of good qualities for generations.

    just my personal thought.

    Keep on cocking

    jon

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  25. #15
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    I guess my question has been answered, and let me summarize it:

    1. It is necessary as a last resort in saving the bloodline.

    2. It is a shortcut alternative to degeneration breeding.

    There is a cost of doing it, however, and that is either will produce extremely good or extremely bad. And therefore extra caution in selecting must be exerted.

    I hope I got it right and thank you for your altruistic responses. I do appreciate it.

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  27. #16
    Kenut
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    Check the results of the mating. Objective eye, critical culling.

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  29. #17
    Senior Member BananaCamp's Avatar
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    I am starting my fifth year coming out of a brother and sister mating and this year I am finally going to start to line breed to one of the brother and sister hens. In my situation I started with two cocks and one hen. I bred both cocks to their sister in different years. One cock side they came too big, culled them all and the other cock side the hens looked good tight feathers and good station. Bred Uncle to neice with good results. Anyway this particular hen I bred twice and throws smart fighters. This is the hen I am going to line breed back to with one of her sons. Just don't lose sight of your goal and be patient and above all cull heavy. Breed to the characteristics of the line, aggressive, speed and power. Now I hope I have added another demension to the line with some head. This next mating will tell if I'm on the right track. This line will be used for crossing to proven battlecross cocks. Advice just do it and see for yourself, it's not a waste of time if they prove out the way you want them too.

    Good Luck...

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  31. #18
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    As a result of your inbreeding, you can always select the best fowls based on their conformation and other physical traits.

    Other characteristics which are not physical such as gameness, are very hard to determine.So therefore from the result of your strain, you still need to do a battle cross just to make sure.

    No one is perfect I must admit.Quite a long process though to come very close to it.

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  33. #19
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    when you need to purify your blood lineage quick :smoke:

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  35. #20
    Senior Member cnucum's Avatar
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    inbreed pullets...

    how does one check the "non" physical traits of a pullet from an inbreeding, stags maybe checked but what about pullets? is there a way to determine this?

    thanks for the info...

  36. #21
    Senior Member BananaCamp's Avatar
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    Followup on my 2004 post......

    The hen *(is from brother sister mating) throws smart sons when previously crossbred.......Linebred son back to the hen and the linebred sons are still smart but now they are ducking to much and getting caught.....conformation not that good too (cull).....I think the hen is good for out crossing and not good for linebreeding....will try to cross breed hen again see if line breeding caused the problem....sometime to smart no good....stay tuned.....

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  38. #22
    Member gentlemancocker's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    ferdief,
    it is necessary to propagate the line and lock the genes..nice move..even though you do the son to mother or father to son it will be another family unless you do a brother sister and again choose the best that suits you to lock the genes..

  39. #23
    amigo1
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    ferdief

    just go for it... i also have a 3rd gen brother and sister mating this season...im also mating the same bc with its mom just to be sure... but im keeping my finger crossed... im doing it to produce seed fowls for this line...but think twice in fighting in-bred fowls...they are better off to be broodstocks... in breeding lowers the testosterone level of the roosters thus making sulk...

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  41. #24
    ilahas
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    the parents of the brother-sister pair have a lot to do with what the results might be. if the parents are themselves different strains, making the brother-sister pair a crossbreed, then brother-sister mating is not going to result in intense inbreeding as the genes on both sides are not fixed. You will get all kinds of offsprings from: a) 25% closely resembling the father, b) 25% closely resembling the mother, and c)50% crossbreed of diverse traits. it is also possible to get offsprings which are totally different from the original pair (parents of the brother-sister)--a sort of unlocking genes as opposed to genes fixing. JMO.

    from reading Gurley's article on breeding, which i found to be so true he said that (to paraphrase) "there exist a pair that is a complete replica of the opposite." . look for that one, and if not successful at first, breed more to find that exact replica.

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  43. #25
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    ilahas

    Well put my friend.

    VL, did you try breeding the Linebred offspring out of your proven hen.

    Just because linebred fowl don't preform as well, it does not mean that they inturn will not produce quality fowl.

    We linebreed & inbreed to maintain a specific line in hopes that they will produce like their parents did, not for battle fowl. It is nice when you linebred back to a hen & you can still get them to preform, that is the prepotent hen for sure, that surley needs to be duplicated as close as you can.

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  45. #26
    filamforks
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    If you were to pick(buy) one to breed.....

    You have two linebred brothers(seedfowls). The other one performs(spars) better but does not have good station, and body built, while the other one has all the physical qualities wanted but does not spar as good as the other one. Now, the question is which one would you choose(buy) to breed?
    Would appreciate any input to this.

    filamforks

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  47. #27
    Senior Member BananaCamp's Avatar
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    VL & C39

    I hear you but, I have a hardtime throwing feed at birds that cannot hold their own....I guess my standards are too high and expect only the best of the best......I'll try another son from another cross and I'll make the sign of the cross when I put them together.....just a small time breeder, I breed for myself......

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  49. #28
    Oplod
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    Ilahas,

    yes, that is absolutely true---- that is why brother and sister mating is not always to be concluded as locking the genes, because there are cases that they are not homozygote in nature.

    The one you are referring to, as opposite replica might be a "throw back" but again they have similar properties as the "cross over" or sometimes "hybrid". That is where the confusion starts. in cases that this happens---repeat the mating one or more times.

    Banana camp,

    That always happen when you closely "in-bred" fowl.....what you will be expecting is the performance of their offspring--- not them.
    My seed fowl broodcock before is only 1.6 kls. and if you let him spar he is rolling in his back while his legs is all over. If you cross him to the right pullet (his distant relative) the offspring are amazingly diffferent (average 2 to 2.2 and very calm in the pit) Unfortunately, I was not able to continue the mating because I went here in Canada. The method of breeding was only taught to me by a dying friend (cancer).

    -Oplod-

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  51. #29
    orlando
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    filamforks,for seedfowls selection be discreet, dont settle for less. whatyou have for selection is not good enough. jmho

  52. #30
    Senior Member jaxxwhite's Avatar
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    :rbounce: :smoke:

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