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Thread: Brother - Sister mating update.

  
  1. #241
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    gaff, been doing it for 4 generations now (father to daughter mating) for my Rampuri Asils...

    this is the original cock (himself inbred out of a full bro-sis mating)



    this is one of my 4th generation stag (15/16 = 93.75%) of the original cock



    the numbers/percentage I use just as a "guideline" that the 4th gen progeny have 93.75% of the original cocks blood, sort of a map where I am at already.

    It's more on "selecting" the daughters to breed back, to "pass" what I believe they should be and carry on from there. So far so good, each generation, good size, good station (for an asil), good health and lay more eggs than the previous generation. Still matures early also at 3-4 months old, cockerels have to be separated or else will kill each other...

    I will breed back again as long as the original cock is capable, when he's gone or not capable anymore, I will have different generations of him to breed to each other and hopefully keeping true to what he brings to the brood pen... by the way, the remaining 1/16th blood of the stag is western...
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  2. #242
    Senior Member gaff's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Thanks Chris that's interesting. Most noteable is that you started with an already inbred B-S broodcock. Assuming he was a good one he should at least have had a tighter gene pool than a straight bred cock that was not inbred. This I believe is one of the reasons that it's working out good for you.
    I'm doing it the other way round. Father daughter up till 7/8 and then B-S. I'm still considering my options. If I get a fantastic 7/8 I'm going to go B-S then maybe back to the original cock.
    I have some 1/2 1/2 for insurance but my aim is to breed show fowl and maintain that line for future crosses.
    Well done in keeping your goal in mind and sticking with it. Best of luck with your next generations.
    One question. Do the tight bred ones spar in a similar fashion to the original rooster?

  3. #243
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaff View Post
    One question. Do the tight bred ones spar in a similar fashion to the original rooster?
    As long as you stick to what you think your fowls should have or be, looks and performance wise, that's all that matters...

    I'd say they are faster and more powerful than their dad... but I will let you decide on that...

    here's the original rampuri asil cock vs. a boles asil:

    http://cnucum.multiply.com/video/ite...k_Rampuri_Asil

    here's his 7/8th (3rd gen) son vs. a western white fowl:

    http://cnucum.multiply.com/video/ite...vs_Rampuri.avi

    I will be more keen on the grades they will make for me more than their actual performance though, so far so good...
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  4. #244
    Senior Member gaff's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Bummer, I'm on an iPad so I can't watch those as they are visa adobe. I do appreciate the thought. You seem to be reaping the rewards of good breeding. Best luck. My birds are molting good now. As soon as they are out I'll take some pics.
    Yfis,
    Gaff.

  5. #245
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    If you can not breed fowl to do what you want, someome better tell the poultry industry. The fowl they have created, are controlled every minute of their life, to be what they want. This is done with genetics and enviroment. Although they breed for diferant traits, you can breed for differant traits and maintain them with the knowledge of basic genetics. If the poultry industry breed fowl for fighting, with their knowledge of genetics and how to use them, they would produce fowl that you could not kill with a shot gun. Ha Cnucum, I would breed the last generation of the old cock, B-S This will maintain what you have created, at a higher IC.
    Last edited by RayBoles; April 8th, 2012 at 04:16 AM.

  6. #246
    Member ALM3's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Question for Mr Ray: I made a cross this past year and have hand selected three pullets from the group and one stag. The hens all came colored alike with identical markings and the same leg coloring. The stag I choose came with markings and coloration more to the cock side, being a WL RH. The pullets all came the sandy blonde color of the old time blueface hens. My plans are to breed the brother back to the sisters. I am hoping this will set the cross from the original breeding. Do you feel it better to breed the opposites for brother sister mating or the ones more alike?

  7. #247
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    If possible breed both. Remember, the first mating, is to see basicaly what you have. To see if they are good enough to carry on.

  8. #248
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by RayBoles View Post
    Cnucum, I would breed the last generation of the old cock, B-S This will maintain what you have created, at a higher IC.
    Mr. Ray, you already knew I was going do that anyway...

    Gaff, we'll see, but that will be sure enough, that "I will reap what I sow"...

    Good day to you gentlemen...
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  9. #249
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by cnucum View Post
    gaff, been doing it for 4 generations now (father to daughter mating) for my Rampuri Asils...

    this is the original cock (himself inbred out of a full bro-sis mating)



    this is one of my 4th generation stag (15/16 = 93.75%) of the original cock



    the numbers/percentage I use just as a "guideline" that the 4th gen progeny have 93.75% of the original cocks blood, sort of a map where I am at already.

    It's more on "selecting" the daughters to breed back, to "pass" what I believe they should be and carry on from there. So far so good, each generation, good size, good station (for an asil), good health and lay more eggs than the previous generation. Still matures early also at 3-4 months old, cockerels have to be separated or else will kill each other...

    I will breed back again as long as the original cock is capable, when he's gone or not capable anymore, I will have different generations of him to breed to each other and hopefully keeping true to what he brings to the brood pen... by the way, the remaining 1/16th blood of the stag is western...
    Thank you sir...please keep us posted on succeeding generations. I am learning a few things.

  10. #250
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    cnucum, most will breed back to mother or aunt, or grandmother, that will decrease the IC.

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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    I have made some B... S matings before with my birds and they were good so i done it again! so one of my brood cocks now is out of a double B..S mating and the stags from him have been above averidge ....

  12. #252
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Let me ask a question to everybody.

    Say I want to make a family of Blacks with some Jap in them & I did it like this.

    I took an inbred Black cock & bred him over an inbred Jap hen & produced 1/2 grades, offspring A.

    I then took the Jap hens brother & bred him over the Black cocks sister producing 1/2 grades, offspring B.

    Then, want to make a 1/4 grade family.

    So, I take pullets from offspring B & breed the Black cock that produced offspring A (their uncle) to them breeding back to the Black side making 1/4 grades offspring C.

    At the same time breeding a stag from offspring A to the hen that produced the offspring B (his Aunt) making 1/4 grades offspring D.

    Then, breeding offspring from C to D back and forth making matings of the cock & hen side from each C & D.

    Uncle/Niece & Aunt/Nephew = 12.5%
    12.5% double first cousins in the first = 25%.
    These will start at 31.25% if I did the math right lol.

    Can I go from here breeding down thru each generation producing a higher level of homozygosity as I go just like I could with a bro/sis mating? Maybe even more so?

    Ray, all I ask is you figure this out with an open mind with out insults. I did not start insulting, you did.

    Lets be civilized.

    Say I bred them for 3 generations, what would the COI be? I will let you figure it out & tell me. Or anybody else.

    Then tell us what the bro/sis is at 3 generations.

  13. #253
    Senior Member jam671's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39 View Post
    Let me ask a question to everybody.

    Say I want to make a family of Blacks with some Jap in them & I did it like this.

    I took an inbred Black cock & bred him over an inbred Jap hen & produced 1/2 grades, offspring A.

    I then took the Jap hens brother & bred him over the Black cocks sister producing 1/2 grades, offspring B.

    Then, want to make a 1/4 grade family.

    So, I take pullets from offspring B & breed the Black cock that produced offspring A (their uncle) to them breeding back to the Black side making 1/4 grades offspring C.

    At the same time breeding a stag from offspring A to the hen that produced the offspring B (his Aunt) making 1/4 grades offspring D.

    Then, breeding offspring from C to D back and forth making matings of the cock & hen side from each C & D.

    Uncle/Niece & Aunt/Nephew = 12.5%
    12.5% double first cousins in the first = 25%.
    These will start at 31.25% if I did the math right lol.

    Can I go from here breeding down thru each generation producing a higher level of homozygosity as I go just like I could with a bro/sis mating? Maybe even more so?

    Ray, all I ask is you figure this out with an open mind with out insults. I did not start insulting, you did.

    Lets be civilized.

    Say I bred them for 3 generations, what would the COI be? I will let you figure it out & tell me. Or anybody else.

    Then tell us what the bro/sis is at 3 generations.
    Not sure what you are asking? Everyone or just Ray?
    I am not sure if Ray would want to answer your question because
    your kinda insulting him before he can respond.

  14. #254
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by jam671 View Post
    Not sure what you are asking? Everyone or just Ray?
    I am not sure if Ray would want to answer your question because
    your kinda insulting him before he can respond.
    I am asking everybody & he started the insulting on another thread so I have every right to respond.

    Also, there is no insulting in this post & if he does not want to respond that is fine.

    Tell me where I insulted him in this post.

    He started insulting everybody on the elementry genetics thread & took it over so I moved this to his thread.
    Last edited by colt39; April 12th, 2012 at 08:20 AM.

  15. #255
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    Thumbs up Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Mr Boles sent me some very nice Sweaters. I do believe he is successful with his method of breeding. They have great conformation.

    I have talked to him on several occasions, very well spoken and answered the many questions I asked. Nice fella for sure.

    Respectfully:

    Cliff King

    OKLAHOMA

  16. #256
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39 View Post
    Let me ask a question to everybody.

    Say I want to make a family of Blacks with some Jap in them & I did it like this.

    I took an inbred Black cock & bred him over an inbred Jap hen & produced 1/2 grades, offspring A.

    I then took the Jap hens brother & bred him over the Black cocks sister producing 1/2 grades, offspring B.

    Then, want to make a 1/4 grade family.

    So, I take pullets from offspring B & breed the Black cock that produced offspring A (their uncle) to them breeding back to the Black side making 1/4 grades offspring C.

    At the same time breeding a stag from offspring A to the hen that produced the offspring B (his Aunt) making 1/4 grades offspring D.

    Then, breeding offspring from C to D back and forth making matings of the cock & hen side from each C & D.

    Uncle/Niece & Aunt/Nephew = 12.5%
    12.5% double first cousins in the first = 25%.
    These will start at 31.25% if I did the math right lol.

    Can I go from here breeding down thru each generation producing a higher level of homozygosity as I go just like I could with a bro/sis mating? Maybe even more so?

    Ray, all I ask is you figure this out with an open mind with out insults. I did not start insulting, you did.

    Lets be civilized.

    Say I bred them for 3 generations, what would the COI be? I will let you figure it out & tell me. Or anybody else.

    Then tell us what the bro/sis is at 3 generations.
    So is it important to do this type of breeding to build your foundation stock Mr. Clem?

    And how many generations do you have like this? Is it as far as Mr. Boles has taken it?

    Just wondering since you have done real well in the big shows in PI.

    Just wanted some feedback.

    Thanx.

  17. #257
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    If you have a INBREED family, of what degree of inbreed is the family, are they just related , with verry little IC or were they inbreed to a degree of 80+% IC. This will make a great differance. This is why I want to know ,what is tight indreed. Did the jap cock and sister have the same parents, did the black cock and sister have the same parents. How many generations did the black fowl and the jap fowl have parents incommen? You can not just breed a name to a name an say you got a name. If you had taken the black fowl and the jap fowl and created a pure family, then you would know their genetic make up. You would know what you have genetically. The fowl I started with only had a name, I used genetic science to make what they are to day. When I breed any two birds on my farm, I know what they will be genetically.. As I have said many times all you have is related fowl, mabey someone else has a better answer. If you did have fowl with a 31%IC what now, the way you suggested breeding them will not maintain a 31%IC. You will not believe me no matter what I say, so send or take it to someone who might give you an answer. Where is the consistency?
    Last edited by RayBoles; April 13th, 2012 at 02:54 AM.

  18. #258
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Thanks Ray for answering my question.

    I posted just about the same thing on the other thread as you just posted.

    When a person gets fowl & just starts out with them, he really don't know what he has. I also agree that very few chicken men send fowl with an IC. I would bet some don't have many on their farm that have an IC. But, you have to start somewhere.

    Any bro/sis, Uncle/Niece or any fowl kinship wise when bred together will have an IC no matter if their parents did or not.

    So, like I said, you have to start somewhere & if you can get fowl that are just closely related, that is better than starting with crossed up fowl.

    If they breed true to the type the breeder says they will, I linbreed to specific individuals producing lines from them that stand out. Then, take offspring from that to do a cross with another bird bred the same way. they have a high level of homozygosity to be able to pass on to the cross.

    The cross goes back to 0% at that point but at-least there will be one allele from a gene if it is homozygous.

    Then, when you breed back to the uncle & niece, there is a greater chance that they will pair up & become homozygous once again.

    Then to the double first cousins homozygosity becomes more apparent.

    Where I went from the 31%, cousins from each, generation to generation just like you did with the bro/sis.

    Been doing that for years with my Roundheads.

    Yes, the Black cock would have the same parents as the Black hen & same with the Japs. That is the only way to get double first cousins in the first that will start at 25%.

    trueedge, yes, you have to have fowl as your seed stock that will breed true to type & have a great deal of homozygosity. Then, all your fowl will be that way until you cross them. As far as how many generations have I bred to, I have not counted. I have not even tried to check their COI because I would have to go back a very long time.

    If they have a great deal of homozygosity & it shows in the pit & in the brood pen, that is what matters to me. A number is just a number if they can't win & reproduce them selves.

    Ray is with out a doubt a very good breeder & my only disagreement with him is homozygosity is just that, homozygosity & it does not make a difference how you achieved it.

  19. #259
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Thank you Mr. Clem

    I have two pairs of hatch chickens that are half cousins. I plan to breed one cock to both hens. and the next setting breed the other cock to both hens. So technically that will give me 4 lines to work with.

    I don think id be able to do uncle to niece since i dont have a brother to any of the roosters so I guess in another few years i would breed these cousins together? or is it best to breed them back to the cock or hens?

    according to what ive read above it would be best to breed cousins or brother and sister in my first mating?

    And this is directed to either your Mr. Clem or Mr. Boles as I value both opinions
    Last edited by trueedge; April 13th, 2012 at 10:01 AM.

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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    trueedge, it does not matter what you have, as long as you are satisfied, and from there breed B_S to increase their homozygous genes. Improve them with selection.

  21. #261
    Senior Member GamerGreys's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    It is of my opinion and Boles even recognized my method I posted on the thread another way of locking genes that there is other ways of gaining an IC in fowl and locking in the genes as they use to say just as fast as bro sis.
    Boles fowl were not locked when he first got them so they are crossed up and are still crossed up fowl made more homozygous. Jims black jap fowl were crossed up fowl and not locked. So now Jim got his where he wanted his and is at the same starting point as Boles sweaters when he first got them. See both are at the starting line now. Both have them where they want them what method will prove to get a higher IC.? Whos got the higher IQ now is the question?

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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by RayBoles View Post
    trueedge, it does not matter what you have, as long as you are satisfied, and from there breed B_S to increase their homozygous genes. Improve them with selection.
    Thank you Mr Clem for answering my question.

  23. #263
    Senior Member gaff's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by GamerGreys View Post
    It is of my opinion and Boles even recognized my method I posted on the thread another way of locking genes that there is other ways of gaining an IC in fowl and locking in the genes as they use to say just as fast as bro sis.
    Boles fowl were not locked when he first got them so they are crossed up and are still crossed up fowl made more homozygous. Jims black jap fowl were crossed up fowl and not locked. So now Jim got his where he wanted his and is at the same starting point as Boles sweaters when he first got them. See both are at the starting line now. Both have them where they want them what method will prove to get a higher IC.? Whos got the higher IQ now is the question?
    They are both skinning the cat just doing it in a different way. Both are good breeders, both of their birds do well in top competition. That's the goal and they are doing it. We are trying to learn how to breed better. We may not get it 100% but at least it's in the right direction.

    I can only imagine how guys bred before the Internet came along. We are indeed privelaged to have valuable information like this being shared.

    I've learned a lot and I say thanks for that!

  24. #264
    Senior Member Touchdown's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Mr.Boles,I am mating my gold hen(2way cross) to his son(3way cross) together.Can I do Brother-Sister mating of their offsprings so on and so forth to lock their genes?

    And from above mating's offsprings.I am planning on making a different line but within same family/bloodline.

    sample A: Can I line breed back daughter to original cock(father) then F1 son back to mother then F2 daughter breed back to F1 son then F3 son breed back to F2 daughter and so forth?

    sample B: Can I line breed back son to original hen(mother) then F1 daughter back to father then F2 son breed back to F1 daughter then F3 daughter breed back to F2 son and so forth?

    Is sample A and sample B type of inbreeding/linebreeding will give you high homozygosity?

  25. #265
    Senior Member slwnstdy's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39 View Post
    Let me ask a question to everybody.

    Say I want to make a family of Blacks with some Jap in them & I did it like this.

    I took an inbred Black cock & bred him over an inbred Jap hen & produced 1/2 grades, offspring A.

    I then took the Jap hens brother & bred him over the Black cocks sister producing 1/2 grades, offspring B.

    Then, want to make a 1/4 grade family.

    So, I take pullets from offspring B & breed the Black cock that produced offspring A (their uncle) to them breeding back to the Black side making 1/4 grades offspring C.

    At the same time breeding a stag from offspring A to the hen that produced the offspring B (his Aunt) making 1/4 grades offspring D.

    Then, breeding offspring from C to D back and forth making matings of the cock & hen side from each C & D.

    Uncle/Niece & Aunt/Nephew = 12.5%
    12.5% double first cousins in the first = 25%.
    These will start at 31.25% if I did the math right lol.

    Can I go from here breeding down thru each generation producing a higher level of homozygosity as I go just like I could with a bro/sis mating? Maybe even more so?

    Ray, all I ask is you figure this out with an open mind with out insults. I did not start insulting, you did.

    Lets be civilized.

    Say I bred them for 3 generations, what would the COI be? I will let you figure it out & tell me. Or anybody else.

    Then tell us what the bro/sis is at 3 generations.
    Hi All,
    I've come from the Elementary Genetics thread, but I think I should have been in this one from two weeks ago. Some things have just clicked, now that I have tried manually calculating CoI as well as now having a trial version of FSPEED

    Hi Jim,
    I loaded up your data into FSPEED and, are you ready for this....after three generations (first generation 1/4 Jap is your C and D above), the CoI is 26.6%

    I dont have a full explanation, will need to do the manual calculation on that one to check how many common ancestors, how many levels of linkages there are and what of the ancestors are inbred.

    Time allowing, I will do more analysis (as much as I can understand) on it. For now what I can see is that although your initial stock were two sets of siblings, the offspring A and B which were 1/2 went to CoI 0. then because you start to get 1/4 blood through uncle/niece aunt/nephew that only starts at 12.5%. Next generation goes to 21.9% then 26.6%.

    If someone can double-check that would be great...

  26. #266
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    All offspring will be related at 1/2 & 1/2.

    Then back to uncle/niece aunt/nephew.

    Then cousin/cousin from then on.

    The IC don't get high until the cousins. They are double first cousins in the first with inbreeding already so they start higher than 25% at F1s.

    I have not figured out how to use Fspeed & get the right ancesters right lol so I gave up. I know where they start at anyways lol.

    If you stay with uncle/niece you would be right. But only one gen at uncle/niece aunt/nephew to get them to 1/4 grades. Then, it is cousin/cousins from there on at 1/4 grade.
    Last edited by colt39; April 15th, 2012 at 12:34 AM.

  27. #267
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Hi Guys, just a question, in human terms - would two identical twins represent a COI of 100 %? could identical twins be the epitomy of gene parity or equivalence? I really want to know. Thanks!

  28. #268
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by jailbird View Post
    Hi Guys, just a question, in human terms - would two identical twins represent a COI of 100 %? could identical twins be the epitomy of gene parity or equivalence? I really want to know. Thanks!
    If self fertilization is 50% I am thinking identical twins bred together would have an IC of 50%.

    Their coefficient of relationship or R would be 100% though.

    Here is a site that helps out with COI.

    http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570144.html

  29. #269
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    slwnstdy I might have missed it but did you do the CO of the 5/8 we were talking about?
    Im not sure how to get to the CO but in math 5/8 is 62.5%. Maybe there is a way to put it on a calculator for CO that I dont know about?

  30. #270
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: Brother - Sister mating update.

    Quote Originally Posted by GamerGreys View Post
    slwnstdy I might have missed it but did you do the CO of the 5/8 we were talking about?
    Im not sure how to get to the CO but in math 5/8 is 62.5%. Maybe there is a way to put it on a calculator for CO that I dont know about?
    It really is not that simple as 5/8 - 3/8 for an IC. For a coefficient of relationship or R you could figure it out.

    For example, If I breed a father to his daughter you get a 3/4 - 1/4 with an IC of 25%.

    If I breed a uncle to his niece, you still get a 3/4 - 1/4 but an IC of 12.5%.

    Unless you already know this & already calculated the common ancestors in the 5/8 & I am just butting in when you already know lol.

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