Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 72

Thread: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

  
  1. #1
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    684
    Post Thanks / Like

    Wink Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    hello folks,

    its been a while since i had visited this site and i am very grateful for its existence.
    My friends and I are trying to start a club with the primary objective of testing our broodstocks in two weapons; the 1-INCH SHORT KNIFE and AMERICAN LONG GAFF.

    we would like to invite those seriously interested. We welcome only breeders(no financer-gamblers allowed)

    The first meet will be held sometime in December 2007. somewhere in Bulacan in one of our members' farms. We will be fighting banded stags as well as cocks in two separate days of fighting. It will be an exclusive affair with food and drinks served and lots of chicken talk.

    To become a member, you must first be a breeder of good standing belonging to a cocking association under the two Umbrella Organizations namely NFGB and UGBA.

    To attend the scheduled events this December, you will be asked to put up at least 1 entry and its corresponding P7,000 ENTRY FEE in advance(this is to discourage and weed out those who just want to come to watch-SPECTATOR-GAMBLERS) as well as the P 3,000 annual membership fee which will be used to provide food, drinks, and(if there's enough money---ENTERTAINMENT) during our events.

    Other details like specific rules or dates and venue will be announced at a later date. This is just a preliminary announcement. Anyone who qualifies to join may contact me through my email glsidmug@yahoo.com or call me at 09285024836(this number cannot text).

    If you are a breeder concerned about GAMENESS AND CUTTING ABILITY of your SET FAMILIES AND STRAINS, this is the Club for you. When we meet, our chickens do the fighting...we leave POLITICS OUTSIDE THE DOOR.

    MABUHAY ANG SABONG!
    glenn

  2. #2
    Member katekate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    chatsworth,cal.,91311
    Posts
    451
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Sir Goodluck To You And Your Amigos ,you Have To Do A Lot Of Convincing First For The Money Involve These People Are Hard To Talk When It Comes To Money. Try Harder It Might Work Out For You And The Group.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    4,403
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    I think small time backyard breeders should be included. There are lots of gamefowl enthusiasts that fight in any heel. I myself have tried the gaff, even pitting them in gaff rules. Also interested in naked heel and mexican 1" inch.
    Last edited by Camarines; June 1st, 2007 at 06:52 AM.

  4. #4
    CyberFriends
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    841
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Gamblers Are Not Allowed!!!!!! But Youre A Gambler By Putting Entry Fee!!!!??????

  5. #5
    Member katekate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    chatsworth,cal.,91311
    Posts
    451
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesbulahaw
    Gamblers Are Not Allowed!!!!!! But Youre A Gambler By Putting Entry Fee!!!!??????
    SIR JAMES HAS A POINT HOW WOULD YOU CONVINCE ANY PERSON OR GROUP TO WASTE TIME AND THE CHICKEN WITHOUT ANY BETTING INVOLVE .THEN USING GAFF IS HARD TO SELL TO PINOY COCKERS SPENDING HOURS JUST TO GET THE WINNER WITHOUT ANY BET? BUT DOING A GOOD PR ON YOUR GROUP MIGHT WORK WHO KNOWS THERE IS NO HARM IN TRYING. GOOD LUCK AGAIN

  6. #6
    Senior Member Zacdaddy77's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,584
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    I think it is a great idea.I think by gamblers he means people who just come to watch and holler and gamble.He is just wanting chickenmen ( and women) there.Making it about the gamefowl and not the gambling and such.I don't think he means you can't gamble with each other.I might have 1 thought though.Don't you think you will need to set up drag pits?I wish I could make it there to see the first one.( I wish i could just move over there and stay but I think it will be a few more years before I get to see your country.)




    ,Zac

  7. #7
    Senior Member swtrhtch1925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    I am not sure what are the mechanics. But I think the outcome of this is that most who will join, will realize the "gameness" of their stock. The toughness to stand cuts for minutes, even hours.

    Are you going to follow the American Cockfighting Rules in Gaff/SK?
    Because if you get about 20 people(entry) and 1 main pit, it will be a very long day.....


    I might push my group to try it.. not sure

    we'll see

  8. #8
    Senior Member swtrhtch1925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Breeders with good intention should be happy if the outcome intention is good as well.

    They can fight their mid stations and see their gameness.... peck til its breathes...

  9. #9
    CyberFriends gamecock96's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    6,399
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    First of all, it is a good idea for you to start a club like this. I just don't see why you should limit this to members of umbrella organizations of UGBA and NFGB. In stag fighting, yes but don't you want to open it up for the Cock derby??

    2nd question of mine would be the gaffers. Who would tie the gaffs and the short knife, and who would furnish the gaffs and sk. Do the participants have to bring their own??


    Al

  10. #10
    Administrator Sentenciador's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,431
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Hi Glenn,

    I'd like to be a member.

    However, I am not a member of any breeder organization.

    Will that be a problem?

    Thanks!

  11. #11
    Senior Member swtrhtch1925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    the entry fee is acceptable. then we can just bet over a coke litro.

    just got a call from 2 breeders here, this thread is a magnet.

    sir Glenn... Pm me details...

    thanks.

  12. #12
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    684
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    folks,

    Thanks for the response and interest. The reason we would like to require membership under the NFGB or UGBA is primarily because we will be fighting banded stags and it will make it much easier to conduct screening of stags when they are banded by the above Associations and thier Local subsidiaries.

    I don't want to appear to "snobbish" . Just want to make it easier for our members by standardized acceptability of stags.

    Again, Association membership may not be as relevant to fighting aged cocks but the same precept applies when considering Club Rules which may include mandatory testing of stags. Meaning, all members must enter at least one entry in the Stag Meet before they can entrer in the cock meet. This rule is set to safeguard enough entrants in the Stag Meet.

    This is not a money-making endeavor nor is it a Club trying to raise its membership roster. I made this announcement on this board just in case there would be anyone out there who fall into the qualifications and would be interested to join.

    Initially, we only plan to hold these events in a private venue without any spectators or the gambling public (especially the ones that don't even own a feather) who are more opinionated about breeding than those who actually breed.

    We have held private derbies in a couple of members' farms somewhere in Bulacan and somewhere in Tanay. Both these farms' parking area can only accomodate maximum 30 vehicles and the pitside can only accomodate 60-80 people . So, that is why we do not want "extras" .

    With regards to availability of knives and gaffs. Please check Websites of gaff makers and knife makers in Cebu and elswhere. I suggests for those who are not familiar with these weapons... that you practice tying the one-inch knife and gaff at your farm on rejects before you enter into competition...thats what my friends and i did in the beginning . Lord knows how many hundreds of rejects we have fought to learn how to tie. I don't know of any Proffesional short knife Mananari (gaffers)or Gaff Mananari here in P.I. so its sariling sikap.(your own efforts)

    If qualified and interested, please contact me thru my email.. glsidmug@yahoo.com

    Thank You.
    glenn

    P.S. Sentenciador, please check your PM. thanks.
    Last edited by glenn; June 1st, 2007 at 09:43 PM.

  13. #13
    edmundo
    Guest

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    very very interested. bai glenn, in the gaff, what rules do we use? american style? i'm not too familiar with how they do it, asking for the count, sucking the blood out of their throats, etc. maybe we can borrow some american pitters.....? we're also gonna need drag pits. these will speed things up. is there any gaff maker here in the phil?

  14. #14
    expressdelivery
    Guest

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    giving more emphasis
    on GAMENESS and CUTTING ABILITY

    very interesting
    setting a new standard
    in philippine cockfighting scene

    wish you all the luck and success my friend

  15. #15
    Senior Member swtrhtch1925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    sir glenn - im in. we have ugba banded stags. more power! I think this will be very very successful

  16. #16
    Senior Member Zacdaddy77's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,584
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    awwwwhhh I wanna come over there!I hope this does well.I've been thinking about this for a long time.

    ,Zac

  17. #17
    Senior Member dantes_pick61's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,092
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    i think its to conplect to a pilipino...and functions maybe???? try it

  18. #18
    johndinosicat
    Guest

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    with 7k entry fee and to be held in a private place (not in any cockpit)? i dont think dis is legal,it is just like any tupadas around d country side....and, at the end... nobody wants thier birds compiscated.

  19. #19
    Senior Member wildfoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    just ahead of u
    Posts
    1,667
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Glenn,

    Im in, been praying for something like this.......This is for those who understand! For those who dont - You never will!

    Wildfoot

  20. #20
    Senior Member wildfoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    just ahead of u
    Posts
    1,667
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Wortham Rules !!!!!!! of course!

    If you need a gaffer ......I will bring extra Gaffs.


    Wildfoot

  21. #21
    Senior Member swtrhtch1925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildfoot
    Glenn,

    Im in, been praying for something like this.......This is for those who understand! For those who dont - You never will!

    Wildfoot


  22. #22
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    684
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Guys,

    I love it that this idea is catching on. With the threat of "no more imports" coming very close to reality; it is becoming more and more necessary to maintain the integrity of your bloodlines and set strains. And, i believe there is no other way to do this than to continually assess your fowls integrity in the arena of gaff fighting and the 1-inch short knife.

    I am sure many of you know me as an Oriental grader . All the more reason why i need to test the integrity of my breeding(my american sc lines and my brazilian grades)

    For those that think....only American heavy breeds can excel in these games...you will be surprised. Yes, you will be surprised to learn that Cutting still plays a very crucial role in winning in these weapons. And Gameness is the Bonus or BY-PRODUCT in using these weapons.

    Since we already have a couple of people on this thread who are familiar with WORTHAM RULES (i am presuming Wildfoot is) and maybe more will surface in the coming months, then, we can conduct a proper long gaff tournament .
    The ruweda(cockpit) at the farm in Bulacan is big enough to be split in four sections using a plywood barrier with one main pit (half of the original pit) and the other half split equally into 3 sections for the drag.

    With regards to the Short Knife, we can adopt a 20 minute time limit(with no interference from handlers) using a regular sentenciador..

    WEAPONS = WEAPONS = WEAPONS = WEAPONS (PLEASE SUPPLY YOUR OWN)

    short knife = must measure no longer than 1 inch from its hub to its tip, must not be double blade. Can be any design or shape as long as it conforms to the length and single side blade rule. It can either be socket or fork.And it can be tied using tape or boot (there is no advantage as to how thick the boot or tape is-BELIEVE ME) (Whether tied to both shanks or just the left remains to be decided by vote)

    Long gaff = can be socket or fork, but must conform to Worthham rules regarding limits on length, girth, and keen. (This must be tied on both right and left shanks)

    December is the best month to fight, after most of the Local and National Stag Derbies have been fought. Just make sure you save some Stags for this event.

    glenn

  23. #23
    CyberFriends Kevin Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.


  24. #24
    Senior Member swtrhtch1925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,767
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Sir Glenn - thanks for the info. You just started a very big step. Those who know what is the outcome of this will just support you. Wortham rules is fine.

    This will be bigger than you expected.

    You just started the BEST preservation of gamefowl breeding.

    Thank you!

  25. #25
    cejajr
    Guest

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    This sounds like a very very good idea.Maybe you should thing about adding a short heel derby every once in a while.1 1/2 1 1/4 inch heels... Talk about gameness..

  26. #26
    CyberFriends Kevin Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Quote Originally Posted by swtrhtch1925
    Sir Glenn - thanks for the info. You just started a very big step. Those who know what is the outcome of this will just support you. Wortham rules is fine.

    This will be bigger than you expected.

    You just started the BEST preservation of gamefowl breeding.

    Thank you!
    bump

  27. #27
    Member Roadman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    410
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Glenn,
    This is what cockfighting is all about. Referees has to be well familiar with the rules. This may take some time but this can be the start of a great thing in the Philippines. I am definitely in.



    D. Henry Wortham Rules

    SECTION 1

    1.--When matching cocks or stags in mains or hacks, all birds that weigh even or within 2 ounces of each other automatically match. Cocks and stags weighing 6-5 and over are considered shakes and matched at catch weights.
    a. In a tournament or derby when a cock is brought to the scales he must not weigh a fractional part of an ounce over the stipulated weight and must not weigh less than three ounces under the stipulated weight. Should a cock be brought to the scales over or under the stipulated weight, the referee shall order the pitter to bring in a cock that will make the weight. The referee will wait a reasonable length of time but no longer than 20 minutes and if the entry has not produced a cock of the proper weight it will be his duty to go to the offending pitter's cockhouse and if necessary weigh every cock eligible to fight to see if such a cock is available. Should it not be or if the entry refuses to bring the proper cock to the pit, then the referee has no alternative but to declare the
    offending entry a loser. However, other entrants with the exception of the one matched against the offender and management are to pool every cock of this weight; each bird is to be indicated only by band number and entry number on a folded slip of paper. The non-offending member in this circumtance will draw from a container in charge of the referee and so determine which bird he will meet. Under no circumstances should a fight be awarded to anyone without fighting for the victory.
    (Not a definite rule but as a suggestion) Clubs are urged, with the consent of all entries involved, to institute a house rule imposing a specified money fine for failure to comply with agreed time limits in heeling. Such fines are payable immediately and are added to the purse.
    b. In matching derbies no entrant shall be forced to give away more than three ounces unless agreeable to entry or owner concerned and all entries. If impossible to match within these limits, even though within advertised top and bottom weights,the entry will be withdrawn if weight differential is objectionable. Forfeit or entry fee to be returned. Advertised top and bottom weights in a derby are to be considered check weights insofar as the matching is concerned. In derbies lasting more than one day this rule must be differently construed. Should an entry once start to fight through one day of a multi-day meet he is obligated to continue to the end of the meet even though it would be impossible to match his cocks as stated. It is the duty of the match-maker to match such cocks that do not meet the 3-ounce differential at the closest possible weight.

    2.--In tournaments and derbies the referee or referees shall be selected by the pit management. They or he is accepted as satisfactory by all entrants upon signature of Contract or by payment of entry fee. After entrants have accepted referees and have signified acceptance by payment of entry fee or signature of contract, any decision of the referees will govern. No entry will be accepted who does not agree to abide with the provisions of this and all other rulings.
    a. In mains the referee should be selected or agreed upon by the principals.
    b. The referees decision is final and unrevokable regarding all violations of rules or the conduct of pitters when fighting under these rules.

    3.--Unless event rulings specify otherwise, any length heel that is round from socket to point is fair.
    a. In localities where custom limits the length of blade to 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" it shall be the duty of the pit operator or promoter to post in a conspicuous place the exact definition of a fair heel in that particular pit. It shall also be the duty of the referee to see that all entrants and participants are acquainted with any and all pit rulings as to what constitutes a fair 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" gaff, before any battles are fought.

    4.--Feathers. Cocks shall be shown in full feather which is defined as follows: tail, wing, saddle, and feathers around the vent may be trimmed. The referee will not band any cock that does not meet the provisions of this paragraph.Shaving and trimming head or hackle feathers is not permissable. In extreme emergency, if a cock is a fraction over the specified weight when presented at the scales, under body feathers may be thinned in such a manner as in the referees opinion, fighting ability of the cock is not impaired.

    5.--In tournaments and derbies, entries, upon arriving on the club grounds, are under the jurisdiction of the pit management.

    6.--All cocks in derbies or tournaments are to be banded by the referee or his representative before any matching procedure is started. No one but the referee or his designated representative should have access to the band numbers used on the respective entrants.
    a. After a meet has once commenced, any entry or entries that are detected borrowing, or using or attempting to use any cock that does not have the band assigned to him or is not properly banded shall lose the fight in question and all interest in all purses. The same penalty is to be imposed upon all parties connected with such fraud or attempted fraud. For the immediate fight in such event the procedure described in sub-paragraph "a" of rule 1 is to be used. The innocent party must fight a cock to get a win.
    b. Any cock that has been banded and fought cannot be refought in the same main, derby or tournament unless he has been rebanded by the referee prior to leaving the fighting pit (not pit building) at completion of original fight.


    SECTION 2

    Fighting Rules

    1.--Upon the pitters entrance to the pit, the referee will weigh his cock, check band numbers, carefully examine heels and see that the cock complies in every way with these rules. Pitters will also be allowed to check weights and heels to protect his own interests.

    2.--Billing. After cocks are declared eligible the referee will compel the pitters to bill cocks a few times, order them to get ready and then pit at his command. If in the process of billing, a cock is disabled in any way, it is classed as negligence on the part of the pitter and the cock must be shown. Billing is considered a part of the fight.

    3.--Pitting from 8 foot scores. The score lines will be drawn eight feet apart and cocks must be pitted directly on these lines at all times--the cocks are to be put down squarely on their feet in the center of their respective score, directly facing each other, not sideways, and released immediately at the command pit. Pitting in front or behind the score line, walking or running the cock up to the line is not permissable.

    4.--Pitting on the center score (as called for under Count and Time provisions) is performed with one hand, at all times. At the order get ready by referee the pitters immediately take one hand off and away from cocks--they will not be allowed to touch the cock in any manner except with the hand holding cock after the order "get ready." Pitters are to be in a standard position when delivering the cock, not kneeling, to permit immediate retirement six feet from the birds.
    a. Position of free hand. After "get ready" the free hand will be carried no further to the front than the center of the pitters hip and will not be in motion in any manner that in the referee's opinion will distract the opposing cock.
    b. The center score lines are to be drawn 22 inches part. At the order pit the pitters must come down, from knee height, with their cocks so that the feet rest directly and squarely on the score line and both cocks must be facing each other. The referee shall be the judge as to any unorthodox positions caused by physical condition of the cock.
    c. The hand holding the cock must be directly under the bird, open, and between his legs.

    5.--Pitters position. At all times the pitter and cock will be in full view of the audience and referee. At the order get ready both pitters must come to their score lines, facing each other. After pitting, either at the 8-foot or center score, the pitter will retire six feet from his cock and then will at all times stay at least six feet from either cock until the referee orders handle.

    6.--Handle. After cocks are pitted and fighting the referee will only order handle when it is apparent that one or both cocks are hung. It is entirely up to the referee when to order a handle--when this order is given the cocks must be handled immediately whether the cocks prove to be hung or not.
    a. Cocks must not be touched at any time during battle, by either handler or the referee, until the order of handle is given, when the pitters will promptly obey.
    b. The order of handle will be given when a cock is hung in his opponent, the pit, himself, or in case of a foul.
    c. Should the referee be in doubt at any time as to whether the cocks are hung in any manner he should order a handle.
    d. The pitter is to pull the gaff from his own cock. He will grasp the other cock below the knee and without lifting from floor remove the gaff.
    e. A pitter will not be allowed to touch the opposing cock at any time except after the order of handle to protect himself or his cock and this must be done with an open hand. Mashing or unnecessary roughness is a foul.

    7.--Rest. The period of rest between pittings, after handling is 20 seconds. At the end of this period the referee will call get ready followed by the command pit which is to be issued no longer than five seconds after the get ready call.

    8--Giving of count. A cock is entitled to the count when he fights last, or when the other cock runs away. Count is given only when called for by the pitter of the cock entitled to same. Pitter calling for the Count when entitled to it, must call for it within five seconds, otherwise he loses right to the count and Time is given if both cocks are not fighting. The referee decides whether the count is asked for in the five second period. It is the pitter's responsibility to call for the count at all times when entitled to it but it cannot be forced upon him when not desired. In case of a runaway, Count can be called for at any time.

    9.--The Count--The Count is three Tens, and one Twenty (established by long custom and the order of these rules), with rest of twenty seconds between each pitting. Counting shall always be done by the referee, and not by the pitter, with the object of having each Ten cover ten seconds and the Twenty Count, twenty seconds. After the three Tens are counted, the referee again counts Twenty and awards the battle to the cock having the Count. For the 20-count the cocks are pitted on the center score. Should the cock having the Count hang, the referee will call Handle, then get ready and then pit. When once the cocks get to the center score, either in Time or Count, they remain there until completion of the fight. If cocks are handled for any reason, except in case of time, they will be repitted on the same score as at beginning of the pitting.
    If handled, the Count shall continue from where it was left off when handled. If hung again, they shall be handled and repitted in the same manner. The full three counts of Ten or one count of Time must be completed before cocks are pitted on center score. However, if they have previously been pitted on the center score, they shall be so pitted at the end of each count of Ten.

    10.--Breaking count. When a cock being counted out fights, or cock having the count runs, the referee will call, count broken, and when given again, it starts over again with the first Ten. A cock breaking the count by fighting is entitled to the Count himself, if opposing cock is not fighting. If a cock having the Count dies, the opposing cock wins, if not a runaway--but if a runaway (because it is impossible to determine the gameness of the dead cock) and a runaway can not win, neither entry will receive credit for this fight on scorecard, although it is a theoretical draw. If a cock having the count runs, opposing cock is entitled to the Count, if not a runaway--but if a runaway (both running) Time is given. If both cocks are running neither has the count and each entry loses a full fight. If both cocks are dead or dying and distinctly unable to break count, the fight is a draw and each entrant is awarded one-half fight. A runner cannot win under any circumstances. Dead cocks are entitled to draw only as stated. The referee is to continue all counts are times before rendering a final decision.

    11.--Time. When both cocks stop fighting, or run, and neither has the count, within five seconds, the referee shall automatically give Time of 20 seconds, three times. In taking Time, referee shall call out Time Is Going On, and at the end of 20 seconds call Handle. When pitted again, cocks are pitted beak to beak on the center score, and so on until three 20 seconds have been given from the start of the first Time, and fight will then be declared a draw. To be fully understood whenever Time is given, each Time will be 20 seconds with 20 seconds rest between pittings. If neither fights, unless both are running, the battle is a draw. When both cocks are running each entrant loses a full fight.

    12.--Dead cocks. A dead cock is one that in the opinion of the referee is actually dead and not dying; he loses to a live cock if the latter is not a runaway. The referee is to continue to the end of all counts or time before rendering a decision or making an examination of the birds. If both cocks are dead, the fight is a draw, each entry credited with a half fight.

    13.--Testing and Gameness. The question of gameness or of a cock being a runner shall be left to the discretion of the referee at all times and not the pitters. At no time will a fresh cock be brought into the pit to test the gameness of another cock unless the opposing cock is physically unable, in referee's opinion, to show fight.

    14.--Leaving the pit. When a cock leaves the pit during a fight under any circumstances, he will automatically lose any count or counts he may have. The referee will immediately order a handle, and give Time. The cock remaining in the pit receives the count only by fighting when next ordered pitted by the referee. However, if in the opinion of the referee, the cock leaving the pit is running the cock remaining (if not a runaway or dead himself) will automatically receive the count, if desired. If the cock that has left pit is not present at end of 20-second rest period for the order of pit, the cock remaining in the pit automatically receives the count (if not running or dead). In such instances referee will continue through all counts and rest periods, before making the final decision. If a cock is brought back at any time he is to be pitted at the commencement of next pitting. If he is not brought back before the commencement of the 20-count he is declared the loser if cock in pit is not dead or running.
    a. Should the cock remaining in the pit be a runner, Time is called. The cock that has left the pit may be returned and pitted at the commencement of the next Time and if he shows fight will acquire the count. However, if both cocks are not present when the order to pit is given for the third and final Time, or the cock in the pit is still running, the fight is declared a draw and rules governing two runners apply.

    15.--Fighting. Fighting is striking, chasing, pecking or pecking at the other cock in the opinion of the referee. When cocks are motionless and one or both are holding or apparently holding and neither pitter claims or is entitled to the count, the referee shall give Time.
    a. In tournaments and derbies a cock is deemed to have been matched when the referee cuts off his band or if not banded when the referee has completed weighing and examination of heels and declares the cock eligible to fight. He cannot be replaced by the entrant if he does not show. In hacks the cocks will be considered matched after the referee calls the first "get ready." In a hack, should a cock not face in the preliminary billing, the fight is declared "no contest."
    b. These rules definitely state what is fair and unfair pitting and define the penalties. In a hack, when evidence of fraud or collusion between the parties fighting is discovered, the fight shall immediately be stopped by the referee and declared a draw.


    SECTION 3

    Penalties

    1.--Under these rules the referee is the sole judge and jury and is fully empowered to inflict penalties for any violations of the Rules. In addition to those already mentioned the penalties at the discretion of the referee may be, forfeiture of count, awarding of count to the opposing cock, disbarment of pitter, or disqualification of entry from further participation in the event. If an entry is disqualified, management is to make every effort in cooperation with entrants who have met or do not meet the offender, to produce the needed cocks at the proper weights to complete the meet. The offending entry can win nothing. If it is impossible to find cocks that will meet the weights in a tournament, the remaining entries will receive 1/2 fight when matched with the ejected entry, all previous fights to stand as recorded. In the case of a derby the referee, if cocks are not available to complete the match list, will be forced to temporarily halt the meet and rematch the remaining entries.
    The following are unfair, foul practices, or not permissible.
    The use of unfair heels.
    Unfair trimming out.
    Borrowing, buying, or loaning cocks after an event is matched.
    Use of cocks not properly banded.
    Handling before the order of referee.
    Not pitting at the order of the referee.
    Turning cock loose before order of pit.
    Not observing the 6-foot rule and hovering over cocks.
    Not pitting with one hand at the breast.
    Clucking, blowing, waving handkerchiefs, or any action that may attract attention of cock.
    Changing or replacing gaffs, cutting off a gaff or broken gaff, cutting off a broken wing during the course of battle.
    Assistance by anyone in the pit is not legal.
    The use of individual watercups is prohibited and the pit will furnish fresh water for the use of both pitters.
    No pitter will pit for more than one entry provided however that an entry may change pitters if desired between fights. In case of injury this rule may be relaxed.
    No cock can be withdrawn and the fight given up in a tournament or derby battle as all other entries are interested. In all match fights cocks must be fought to a finish and with the referee alone having the right to decide the result of a contest. Contestants cannot agree to a draw.
    The time allowed to heel after a fight has been called will be announced to all entrants before the start of the event. This provision will be strictly enforced by the referee and appropriate penalties inflicted.
    Pitting in a manner other than prescribed by the rules, such as shoving, holding, jerking back, pasting any object over cock's eye, ducking cock's head under opposing cock, holding a cock's head down (putting him to sleep), holding a cock over opponent.

    2.--The referee is specifically bound to use the following procedure if violations occur during pittings where count is in progress.
    a. If the pitter of the cock having count, for any reason commits a foul, a handle is ordered and he automatically loses count or counts he may have.
    b. If the pitter of the cock being counted out for any reason commits a foul, a handle is ordered and another count awarded against him.

    3.--The pit is not to be violated in any manner during the course of a fight. This means directly that no one except the two pitters and the referee are to be within the pit enclosure after cocks are once billed and no other person may enter except in the case of injury when a substitute pitter may take over the duties of the injured handler. Following pairs of cocks are not to be brought into the pit for weighing until the fighting pair have left for the drag pit or completed their battle. Neither shall handlers of fighting cocks sit on or near the pitside where the actions of their birds can in any way distract the fighting pair.

    4.--Any action of either handler that may prevent a cock from winning or fighting may be called foul and penalized by the referee.


    MATCHING

    Considered by many a mystery, the actual process of preparing a match list for a tournament or derby is comparatively simple. It is only necessary that the matchmaker bear in mind that by a mathematical process, in the case of a tournament, every entry must meet each other one time. In the Derby it is only necessary that the total number of cocks shown be matched and there is no obligation on the part of the matchmaker to do more than match the cocks at the closest possible weights and avoid "double meets" if he can.
    As a guide to those not familiar with management of a tournament or derby the two types of matched fights will be discussed seperately.


    THE TOURNAMENT

    The cocking tournament as known today is a method of fighting devised by the late Sol P. McCall of Louisiana, often called the "Father of the Tournament." In the year 1908 he introduced to the fraternity a "new" way of matching cocks which immediately took the fancy of cockers from one end of the country to the other and until recent years the major events were all fought in this type of competition. His "new" idea was simply that a stated number of entrants were to show a stated number of cocks at previously determined weights in such a way that every entrant would meet each other.
    Because of the nature of a tournament it is a necessary that the weights and number of entries be determined in advance so that those desiring to participate may know how many fowl will be needed. It is also advisable to demand a sizeable forfeit to assure the presence of the full entry list. The withdrawal of an entry during the course of a tournament would naturally upset the predetermined match list and the majority of the pits now ask all entrants to sign a contract in which they agree to fight all fights to a finish, regardless of their place on the score card.
    The Orlando (Florida) Game Club contract is considered by many to be a model of simplicity. It first states the particular "house rules" which govern their tournament, the weights, forfeit, prize money and other pertinent information. It then asks each entrant to sign a short contract which reads as follows:

    "I hereby agree to take an entry in the Or-
    lando Tournament to be held at the Orlando
    Game Club at Orlando, Fla., Jan. ................
    and in so doing agree to abide by the rules. I
    agree to fight all the scheduled fights in the
    tournament and acknowledge that my entry is
    under the jurisdiction of Club rules from the
    time it enters the grounds.
    "I am enclosing $200 as a guarantee, which
    Is to be applied on entrance fee, and I agree
    to put up the balance on or before................
    "The money is to be made payable to ......."
    Date ....................... Signed ........................

    It has been shown that banding all cocks to be shown in the tournament is one of the best ways to prevent substitutions or "switching" of cocks. Bands should be affixed by the referee or his appointed assistant prior to the start of the event with a different series of numbers assigned to each entrant. The referee will keep a record of these numbers and check them when cocks are brought to the pit. Care should be exercised that the bands are firmly and tightly affixed and it is a good practice to use a band on each leg.
    In recent years it has become the custom to band all cocks in any entry's cockhouse and permit him to use any of these birds as desired, as long as they meet the weight requirements as stated in the rules.There is less chance of unsportsmanlike conduct than if the entry is forced to use only the exact number of birds called for in the contract.
    It is of utmost importance that the match list be drawn up correctly. The following charts will be found correct and as printed indicate how the entries will meet in each row of weights. As the matching is a mathematical problem the calling of the first weight will indicate the "key" of the list and under no circumstances can the list be changed after the original call. It is not necessary however, that the "rows" be used as printed--the referee can use any "row" he wishes for any particular weight. All of this should be determined before the start of the meet and the referee deals only in 'numbers' not 'names' when making his match list. The entrants themselves are identified with the numbers by having them draw from a hat or box, slips or envelopes containing a number, according to the number of entrants.

    TEN ENTRIES
    9-5, 4-8, 3-10, 2-6, 1-7
    3-6, 4-10, 7-8, 1-9, 2-5
    2-7, 4-9, 5-8, 6-10, 1-3
    3-8, 6-7, 1-2, 9-10, 4-5
    3-9, 4-2, 7-10, 6-5, 1-8
    3-7, 4-6, 8-9, 1-5, 2-10
    2-3, 5-10, 6-8, 7-9, 1-4
    3-4, 5-7, 8-10, 1-6, 2-9

    TWELVE ENTRIES
    11-12, 9-5, 4-8, 3-10, 2-6, 1-7
    2-8, 3-5, 4-7, 6-11, 9-12, 1-10
    2-5, 3-6, 4-10, 7-11, 8-12, 1-9
    2-7, 4-9, 5-8, 6-12, 10-11, 1-3
    9-10, 4-5, 12-3, 8-11, 6-7, 1-2
    6-5, 7-12, 10-2, 3-9, 4-11, 1-8
    9-6, 4-2, 3-8, 5-11, 7-10, 1-12
    2-12, 3-7, 8-10, 4-6, 9-11, 1-5
    2-3, 5-10, 6-8, 7-9, 4-12, 1-11
    2-11, 5-7, 8-9, 3-4, 10-12, 1-6
    2-9, 3-11, 5-12, 6-10, 7-8, 1-4

    FOURTEEN ENTRIES
    2-6, 3-10, 4-8, 9-5, 11-14, 12-13, 1-7
    2-8, 3-5, 7-13, 4-14, 6-11, 9-12, 1-10
    2-13, 5-14, 3-6, 4-10, 7-11, 8-12, 1-9
    3-13, 2-7, 4-9, 5-8, 6-12, 10-11, 1-14
    10-13, 1-2, 4-5, 12-3, 8-11, 6-7, 9-14
    5-13, 1-8, 7-12, 10-2, 3-9, 4-11, 6-14
    2-5, 3-7, 6-10, 8-9, 13-11, 14-12, 1-4
    6-9, 2-14, 4-13, 3-8, 5-11, 7-10, 1-12
    3-14, 2-12, 5-7, 8-10, 4-6, 9-11, 1-13
    7-14, 1-11, 2-3, 5-10, 6-8, 4-12, 9-13
    1-6, 2-11, 5-12, 8-7, 3-4, 10-9, 13-14
    2-4, 5-6, 7-9, 8-13, 11-12, 14-10, 1-3
    2-9, 3-11, 4-7, 6-13, 8-14, 10-12, 1-5

    SIXTEEN ENTRIES
    1-3, 2-4, 6-8, 9-11, 10-12, 13-15, 14-16, 5-7
    2-3, 5-8, 6-7, 9-12, 10-11, 13-16, 14-15, 1-4
    1-2, 4-6, 7-9, 8-10, 11-12, 13-14, 15-16, 3-5
    2-6, 3-4, 14-10, 8-9, 13-11, 7-12, 5-15, 1-16
    1-8, 3-14, 4-13, 5-12, 6-11, 7-10, 9-15, 2-16
    2-15, 3-16, 4-7, 6-12, 8-14, 10-13, 5-11, 1-9
    1-5, 3-11, 6-9, 7-13, 8-12, 10-16, 4-15, 2-14
    2-13, 3-6, 4-5, 8-16, 9-14, 10-15, 7-11, 1-12
    1-6, 3-15, 4-16, 5-10, 7-8, 9-13, 11-14, 2-12
    2-11, 3-13, 4-8, 5-6, 12-16, 7-14, 10-9, 1-15
    1-13, 3-8, 4-11, 5-14, 6-10, 9-16, 12-15, 2-7
    15-8, 3-7, 4-12, 9-5, 11-16, 10-2, 13-6, 1-14
    2-9, 1-11, 5-16, 8-13, 6-14, 7-15, 12-3, 4-10
    2-8, 3-10, 4-9, 5-13, 6-16, 11-15, 12-14, 1-7
    2-5, 6-15, 7-16, 8-11, 12-13, 14-4, 9-3, 1-10


    THE DERBY

    The Derby as we know it today, is increasing in popularity yearly as it does not place nearly as much stress on the ability of a feeder to "point" his cocks for four or five days and to have them at the peak of their fighting ability while holding at specified weights.
    To better understand the Derby we turn back to the year 1929, when according to an article appearig in The Gamecock, some years ago, Bob Dyer of Frankfort, Ky., was trying to promote a tournament. It was in the spring and most cockers had fought out their best cocks. Although several were interested he could not fill his tournament. Some of the prospects did not have enough cocks. Dyer got some of them together for a conference. Among those gathered was E.A.Brophy of Paris, Ky. (Who won this first derby.) They talked the situation over but it seemed hopeless. The only thing left was to hack their roosters--then someone made a suggestion.
    "Let's all show five or six cocks and match them according to weight. The one who wins the most fights will get the money." A moments silence while the possibilities were considered, was followed by enthusiatic discussion. Practical suggestions built up the idea and they reached an agreement.
    "What will we call it?" someone asked. It was derby-time in Kentucky and the natural answer was, "Let's call it a derby." No one dissented and so the derby was born.
    The late Tom Fowler of Knoxville, Tenn., devised a simple system of matching derbies which was widely accepted. As the derby became more popular, officials found some weaknesses and the following procedures have been adopted. They represent the opinions and experiences of many referees, including the author of these rules, and consolidated in an article by Bob Basham printed in Gamecock.
    The derby is the stimulant that brought cocking to its present height of popularity in our generation. The odds one may receive in a derby are often great! Even at a small brush fight enough entries may show to make the pot very attractive.
    It is because of this financial responsibility a pit, to operate successfully, must set a pattern as to banding, matching and fighting cocks.
    While assisting the late Bob Luster in matching a derby, he remarked: "The referees and officials, a few years from now, will have it easy as a pattern will be established for matching these events."
    After many years, through the sometimes costly and often embarrassing trial and error system, a way has been found to band, match and fight cocks in a derby that is accurate and fair to all concerned.
    The banding of cocks is often taken too lightly by the pit operator. This is a very important phase of conducting a derby. The referee should be supplied with monogramed bands and he should be instructed to put two, yes two bands on each cock, one on each leg and to be sure they are securely sealed. The management should not hand a bunch of bands to some irresponsible person and permit him to band the cocks.
    None of the necassary supplies are expensive . . . accurate scales, monogramed bands, weight cards, match board and call sheets. A few dollars will puchase a season's supply. Too many pit operators believe they can run on the simple premise of having enough "door keepers."
    As the cocks are banded, the referee should instruct each entry to go the pit manager and draw the weight card (enclosed in a blank envelope) which will have his derby number, pay his entry fee, take or reject the optional, and finish such other business as resreved seats.
    Each locality has their own custom regarding the number of cocks to be banded. Time has shown me all cocks on the grounds should be banded and ccounted for. When the weight card as illustrated following is used, only the cocks turned in are eligible to fight, four or six as the derby contract may indicate.

    ___________________________________

    WEIGHT CARD
    ___________________________________
    Entry No. .......... | Entry No. ..........
    Weight | Band
    ===============|===============
    4-12 | 300
    | 301
    4-12 | 302
    | 303
    4-14 | 304
    | 305
    4-15 | 306
    | 307


    Note that each weight must correspond to the two bands shown directly across from the specific weight. Also, it will be seen that the card is perforated so the entry can tear it apart and turn in the weight side only for matching.
    At the same time weights are turned in, the band side of the card should be deposited in a sealed container, kept in full view of all concerned. The entry should identify himself on the back of this half of the card. This container must not be removed from public view nor opened until the match list is completed and posted, folded to offer no information, yet in view of all present.
    The reason for this procedure is to obviate calling entrants back a second time to turn in the band side of the weight card.
    In effect this system permits the referee or matchmaker to make a blind match, band to band, without cluttering up the match board with a lot of band numbers.
    After the matchmaker has finished the actual match list and posts it in the pit, the "band box" is opened. He puts each section of the card together, then places the weight card in it's entirety beside his call book and enters the corresponding band numbers to the weights he has matched.
    Starting at the top of the weight card, he enters the first band number that will correspond to the first matched weight reading down and so on until all band numbers are entered beside their corresponding weight on the match book. This eliminates "fishing" for low band numbers and being able to arbitrarily make certain cocks meet through a first or second call where two or more cocks are turned in at the same weight as the matchmaker now knows who is who. Bear in mind, the match has been made and posted!
    If you will give this particular move a bit of consideration, it means in effect that every cock matched fights band-to-band yet the matchmaker is able to tie them together "blind" and has no way of knowing who meets who. When cocks are matched all the way through band-to-band, it is possible by consulting the master band book, to determine who the entries are!
    Actually, the careful team of matchmakers simply add the band numbers to the corresponding weight so that when the call sheet is given the entry, there is no excuse for bringing the wrong cock to the scales.
    As to the actual matching of cocks, I prefer a sheet of heavy cardboard (which incidentally can be purchased from any print shop in a 22x28 inch size). It is my practice to rule this card into appropriate squares as soon as the definite number of entries is known. (See illustration.)
    Across the 28-inch way, very top column, weights in 1-ounce differentials are listed; on the far left are the entry numbers. I like to use extra large numbers at each pound break; the use of a red-blue pencil helps as the pound lines can be identified with one of the colors and helps prevent the bane of any matchmaker, a pound mistake. Half ounces go to the next higher ounce, quarter ounces to the next lower.
    After the marks representing the cocks for each entry are placed on the card, of course each mark in the proper weight column, the board is double checked and matching begins. The matchmaker should study the board to see if the matches are possible within three ounces and to see if there are weights difficult to match in the small or large weight brackets. The derby is a "number in the hat" so to speak as far as who meets who is concerned and this has a very direct bearing on the outcome.
    Since the numbers are drawn for position on the board the matchmaker must not arbitrarily take this chance out of the game by deliberately matching certain entries or by missing others should he by chance know the identity of certain entrants. An entry should tell no one his number nor the weights of his cocks before the match.
    Considering a theoretical derby . . . should entries numbered one and two have 4-12 cocks, they should meet . . . not one and ten. The matchmaker should start at the top of his weight columns and tie the closest numbers together with like weights. There is no excuse for "dodging" around from top to bottom of the entry numbers.


    (matchsheet.jpg)


    I want to impress on entries that they should insist that cocks are matched in this or any other fair manner s in the first column--not taking entry one past three and five to reach nine!
    As the match is being made a helper can run the "check sheet" shown below as a key to let the matchmaker know at all times which pair have met or are still not matched. For the protection of the officials, this should be destroyed at the moment the match-list is checked out. It is a full "picture" of who meets who and possibly of value for buying or selling in the wrong hands.


    CHECK SHEET
    Entry No. 1 | 3 | 5 | 4 | 2
    Entry No. 2 | 7 | 1 | 6 | 9
    Entry No. 3 | 1 | 9 | 5 | 10
    Entry No. 4 | 1 | 8 | 6 | 5
    Entry No. 5 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 6
    Entry No. 6 | 5 | 8 | 10 | 2
    Entry No. 7 | 2 | 10 | 4 | 8
    Entry No. 8 | 4 | 6 | 7 | 9
    Entry No. 9 | 10 | 3 | 2 | 8
    Entry No. 10 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 6


    I was not present, but recently at a 20-odd entry derby where there were plenty of cocks and weights, two entries met twice. This is deplorable and inexcusable on the part of the officials!
    After the call book is presented it is the duty and responsibility of the "expediter" or "man at the mike" to make his calls as the matchmaker made the matches. Experience has proven that it is wise to use a written call sheet rather than verbal notification to the coming contestants. We have devised or rather a cocker now an Arkansan, E.T.McLean who operated a large printing plant, a triplicate call sheet illustrated below. (pic forthcoming) Each entry gets a copy and one sheet is given to the referee who is calling the fight in question. This obviates the necessity of lengthy checking of records when the cock reaches the scales as all information is in the hands of those concerned.


    (callsheet.jpg)


    At one south-west pit, to keep fights moving and avoid the disturbance attendant to weighing coming pairs of cocks in the pit proper while a fight is going on, an enclosure i provided outside the pit where the referee weighs and checks the next pair called. However, the bands are not cut off until both cocks enter the main pit and they of course must check with the call sheet which the referee retains in his possession until he declares the pair eligible to fight. Both contestants have a duplicate if there is need for a recheck.
    At most pits there is a house rule stating a derby is "no ball game" until each man has fought half of his cocks. This was brought about because it is possible that a meet be stopped by Act of God, or Man. Under this premise it is necessary that the first "rows" be called in order until every entrant has fought half his show and only then start to determine the winner by elimination. In other words, a four cock derby should have evry man fight two birds, regardless of score, before calling the third battle for any man. This is not always possible as there are times when all listed entrants do not meet each other, due to weight differentials. In this case it may be necessary to have one man fighting his second cock against an entrant who has fought two.
    Should the referee find a bad weight, band, or any other infraction of the Rules, he should call the "Local Committee" (entrants as they drew on the first five odd numbers) and let them say how to dispose of the matter . . . after all, it is their money and fight. This procedure has placed the judging and penalties in the hands of the entries and is being widely accepted as a way for the entries to police themselves.
    The completed matchboard is to be folded and secured in a public place where all the entrants and spectators can see it at all times (but so folded that the matches are not in sight). A score card of the meet must correspond with this match card which is to be opened after the fight by the referee--in this way there is proof the cocks were fought as matched.
    At a multi-day meet, each day's match list should be posted openly for the inspection of all present after the conclusion of the day's fights. This puts the man who calls the fights and the matchmaker on notice not to make a mistake and for the matchmaker to match the cocks as they fall in by weight and not go by certain entries to make others meet or not meet.
    Many cockers have contributed their opinions and suggestions to make up this procedure for matching and fighting derbies. We must be progressive and consider all new ideas to constantly improve all phases of cockfighting, regardless of who advances the thought.

    May always the cock win who can and will fight last under the rules!

    (These rules copied from the 1961 revised edition of 'MODERN TOURNAMENT AND DERBY RULES' as written by D. Henry Wortham and as printed by 'The Gamecock'.)

  28. #28
    Senior Member Pinolim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    3,114
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    Bai Glenn, I'm reading and fascinated by this idea......

  29. #29
    edmundo
    Guest

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    maybe we cna have a dry run or demo by some of our american pitter friends, a seminar or something

  30. #30
    Senior Member SHORTKNIFE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    525
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Starting New Club For Short Knife And Long Gaff Competition Here In P.i.

    i wish i'm there so i can join the club...

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 125
    Last Post: April 22nd, 2016, 12:00 AM
  2. Replies: 10
    Last Post: February 4th, 2015, 04:51 PM
  3. Long Knife LK vs Short Knife SK Competition
    By jun parana in forum Usapang Manok
    Replies: 188
    Last Post: April 20th, 2013, 02:55 AM
  4. papaano? gaff, short knife o long knife
    By nilodeleon in forum Usapang Manok
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: April 17th, 2008, 10:38 PM
  5. Replies: 74
    Last Post: July 29th, 2007, 07:33 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •