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Thread: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

  
  1. #421
    expressdelivery
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    interesting to read
    is also the breeding method
    of hugh norman
    of the hugh norman roundhead fame

  2. #422
    Senior Member Taga_Cebu's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenn
    There is a popular notion among Commercial breeders....that if the fowl does not spar well...its a PURE.. They tend to blame it on INBREEDING DEPRESSION...
    Another very popular Breeder here in P.I. is noted for this statement " if my chickens don't move well...my mouth will move for them"

    very true!

  3. #423
    Senior Member GamerGreys's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    With proper breeding you can achieve a locked consistant appearance which most people would call there pure so and so because they breed true to color. Regarding a locked genotype I do not think it can be done without a lab. You breed for preformance traits to get more of the preformance trait you want. As an example you can have traits for medium breakers or high breakers. You breed to dominat high breakers and you are spooning out the medium breakers and in your next spoonful you will more then likely have less medium breakers unless you are breeding to a hen that has more medium breaker genes. Keep breeding cocks that are high breakers and of lines that are high breakers to hens that throw high breaking cocks you should get high breaking cocks

  4. #424
    Senior Member RalSuBirds's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by RalSuBirds
    LOL ... it's getting funny ......

    Mr. Boles ,,, with all due respect ,,, genetics is always a part of any breeding ... therefore any breeding is a branch of science ,,, whether in the wild or in captivity ,,, whether natural or un-natural [genetic engineering] .......

    .....and by the way ,,, even in genetic engineering ,,, though I don't have much knowledge about it ,,, I CAN NOT BE WRONG - it also have ups and downs he he he ....... as you have implied [I mean NO offense] ,,, perhaps you only have the UPs and not the downs - and that makes you a true breeder ........

    .... it makes sense for you to say that we look different due to gene mutation[s] that have occurred within eons of time but NOT the environment .........

    Man O man ........ ha ha ha ...... I have more to say but my Cabernet Sauvignon is dragging me to bed now ... hikh!.........


    .
    ... have a good day fellas ....

  5. #425
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    folks,

    let me try another "SOUP ANALOGY"...... In reality, the mixture of genes carry all kinds of traits that is either desirable or undesirable in the eyes of the breeder...

    When the breeder attempts to isolate all the desirable traits and "SPOON OUT" the Undesirable traits......IT IS NOT AS EASY AS SPOONING CARROTS OUT OF THE SOUP...

    Everytime a breeder tries to ISOLATE the desired traits...He can do two things....

    1) FIND THE CLOSEST RELATIVES(LIKE BROTHER-SISTER OR FATHER-DAUGHTER) THAT SHOW THE SAME PHENOTYPE TRAITS AND HOPE THAT THEY WILL PRODUCE THE SAME LIKENESS TO THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

    2)FIND A SEMI-DISTANT RELATIVE(COUSIN, COUSIN OF THE MOTHER) THAT SHOW THE SAME PHENOTYPE TRAITS AND HOPE THAT THEY WILL PRODUCE THE SAME LIKENESS TO THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

    PROBLEM WITH NO. 1 is that everytime you breed too close...some of the desired traits go with the bad traits when they split off into each indiviual progeny....
    IN a "SOUP ANALOGY".... It is similar to the celery and the beef sticking to the carrots when you try to spoon out the carrots.... or the soup going along with grease when you try to spoon out the grease that floats on top.

    And you cannot.....and I am 100% certain...that you CANNOT dictate which genetic trait stays and which ones go....

    so in effect, you will have some individuals retaining the CUT, but losing the POWER, OR retaining the AGGRESSIVENESS, but losing a bit of the GAMENESS... or retaining the HEIGHT/STATION...but losing the BONE DENSITY...

    these are the SAD...BUT TRUE FACTS OF CLOSE INBREEDING.

    I have always gone the route of NO. 2... if you keep selecting like traits that you find desirable within a family or clan.... it will manifest itself for as long as you keep selecting the following generations to be of the same...

    A GENETIC TRAIT FOR GAMENESS OR CUT OR HIGH BREAKING....WILL NOT PREJUDICE ANOTHER GENETIC TRAIT of THE SAME.. COMING FROM BLOOD THAT IS NOT CLOSELY RELATED AND SAY..."HEY YOU ARE NOT INVITED TO THIS PARTY..." LIKE IT OR NOT, HE WILL JOIN THAT PARTY.....AND THE MORE CONDENSED THE GENETIC POOL FOR CERTAIN TRAITS ....THE HEALTHIER AND MORE ROBUST THE PERFORMANCE INDIVIDUAL WILL BE.

    THE MORE YOU ISOLATE CERTAIN TRAITS UNTIL YOU ARE LEFT WITH VERY LITTLE...DOES NOT HELP THE PERFORMANCE INDIVIDUAL.....

    THINK OF IT AS YOUR ARSENAL OF WEAPONS....

    IN THE EXAMPLE BELOW...the individual with very little gene pool .... can only say(another analogy) I HAVE ONE GENE FOR HIGH BREAKING FROM MY DAD'S SISTER...AND ONE GENE FOR GAMENESS ALSO FROM MY DAD'S SISTER.... AND ONE GENE FOR STATION ALSO FROM MY DAD'S SISTER...
    INTELLIGENT SELECTION is the name of the game

    I would rather have a small gene pool with all quality genes as a large one with a lot of good and bad genes.



    WHILE if you breed by way of No. 2.....you will be adding similar gene traits to the PERFORMANCE INDIVIDUAL...so he can say.....
    I have 4 genetic traits for POWER from my Dad's cousin, my mom's Aunt, my Aunt's half brother, and my grandfather...... I also have 6 genetic traits for CUT.....from my...so on and so forth....

    Remember....as TAN BARK use to say....(not in the exact words) No one person was given the gift of GOD to be so INFALLIBLE that he can go on breeding too close and not destroy his family of fowl..

    fOLKS, it is easy to talk about magical brother-sister matings for 3 or more generations....JUST TRY IT YOURSELVES.....lets see if you won't come out of it crying and almost bankrupt...

    glenn
    Last edited by glenn; May 7th, 2008 at 01:34 PM.

  6. #426
    Member GMX's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenn
    folks,

    let me try another "SOUP ANALOGY"...... In reality, the mixture of genes carry all kinds of traits that is either desirable or undesirable in the eyes of the breeder...

    When the breeder attempts to isolate all the desirable traits and "SPOON OUT" the Undesirable traits......IT IS NOT AS EASY AS SPOONING CARROTS OUT OF THE SOUP...

    Everytime a breeder tries to ISOLATE the desired traits...He can do two things....

    1) FIND THE CLOSEST RELATIVES(LIKE BROTHER-SISTER OR FATHER-DAUGHTER) THAT SHOW THE SAME PHENOTYPE TRAITS AND HOPE THAT THEY WILL PRODUCE THE SAME LIKENESS TO THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

    2)FIND A SEMI-DISTANT RELATIVE(COUSIN, COUSIN OF THE MOTHER) THAT SHOW THE SAME PHENOTYPE TRAITS AND HOPE THAT THEY WILL PRODUCE THE SAME LIKENESS TO THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

    PROBLEM WITH NO. 1 is that everytime you breed too close...some of the desired traits go with the bad traits when they split off into each indiviual progeny....
    IN a "SOUP ANALOGY".... It is similar to the celery and the beef sticking to the carrots when you try to spoon out the carrots.... or the soup going along with grease when you try to spoon out the grease that floats on top.

    And you cannot.....and I am 100% certain...that you CANNOT dictate which genetic trait stays and which ones go....

    so in effect, you will have some individuals retaining the CUT, but losing the POWER, OR retaining the AGGRESSIVENESS, but losing a bit of the GAMENESS... or retaining the HEIGHT/STATION...but losing the BONE DENSITY...

    these are the SAD...BUT TRUE FACTS OF CLOSE INBREEDING.

    I have always gone the route of NO. 2... if you keep selecting like traits that you find desirable within a family or clan.... it will manifest itself for as long as you keep selecting the following generations to be of the same...

    A GENETIC TRAIT FOR GAMENESS OR CUT OR HIGH BREAKING....WILL NOT PREJUDICE ANOTHER GENETIC TRAIT of THE SAME.. COMING FROM BLOOD THAT IS NOT CLOSELY RELATED AND SAY..."HEY YOU ARE NOT INVITED TO THIS PARTY..." LIKE IT OR NOT, HE WILL JOIN THAT PARTY.....AND THE MORE CONDENSED THE GENETIC POOL FOR CERTAIN TRAITS ....THE HEALTHIER AND MORE ROBUST THE PERFORMANCE INDIVIDUAL WILL BE.

    THE MORE YOU ISOLATE CERTAIN TRAITS UNTIL YOU ARE LEFT WITH VERY LITTLE...DOES NOT HELP THE PERFORMANCE INDIVIDUAL.....

    THINK OF IT AS YOUR ARSENAL OF WEAPONS....

    IN THE EXAMPLE BELOW...the individual with very little gene pool .... can only say(another analogy) I HAVE ONE GENE FOR HIGH BREAKING FROM MY DAD'S SISTER...AND ONE GENE FOR GAMENESS ALSO FROM MY DAD'S SISTER.... AND ONE GENE FOR STATION ALSO FROM MY DAD'S SISTER...
    INTELLIGENT SELECTION is the name of the game

    I would rather have a small gene pool with all quality genes as a large one with a lot of good and bad genes.



    WHILE if you breed by way of No. 2.....you will be adding similar gene traits to the PERFORMANCE INDIVIDUAL...so he can say.....
    I have 4 genetic traits for POWER from my Dad's cousin, my mom's Aunt, my Aunt's half brother, and my grandfather...... I also have 6 genetic traits for CUT.....from my...so on and so forth....

    Remember....as TAN BARK use to say....(not in the exact words) No one person was given the gift of GOD to be so INFALLIBLE that he can go on breeding too close and not destroy his family of fowl..

    fOLKS, it is easy to talk about magical brother-sister matings for 3 or more generations....JUST TRY IT YOURSELVES.....lets see if you won't come out of it crying and almost bankrupt...

    glenn
    nice one.

  7. #427
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Really a good read. Never ending because everybody wants to attain the perfect winning line. I like to inbreed myself to attain a supposedly carbon copy of my beloved broodcock or hen but in reality no one really knows and also the fact that you can only be as good as that parent. Or just cross two lines/families with similar fighting style which is much easier and call it a day. For me I just started crossing my two families. I achieve 7/8 with my 2 families thru inbreeding. I will see what the outcome is. For me I think you should know how to do both and when to do it. Happy cocking everyone...

  8. #428
    Senior Member RalSuBirds's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by dingper
    cheers ralsu. im also holding a glass of shiraz!
    ... cheers to you too pareng pedring ....

    ... but now ,,, not so much of red wine anymore ... to offset the the increase of gas price ... .....

    .

  9. #429
    expressdelivery
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    i am more inclined on the naragansett breeding method
    like breeding unrelated fowls with same fighting style


    thanks for sharing your breeding thoughts glenn
    really appreciate
    and enjoyed reading them




    Quote Originally Posted by glenn
    folks,

    let me try another "SOUP ANALOGY"...... In reality, the mixture of genes carry all kinds of traits that is either desirable or undesirable in the eyes of the breeder...

    When the breeder attempts to isolate all the desirable traits and "SPOON OUT" the Undesirable traits......IT IS NOT AS EASY AS SPOONING CARROTS OUT OF THE SOUP...

    Everytime a breeder tries to ISOLATE the desired traits...He can do two things....

    1) FIND THE CLOSEST RELATIVES(LIKE BROTHER-SISTER OR FATHER-DAUGHTER) THAT SHOW THE SAME PHENOTYPE TRAITS AND HOPE THAT THEY WILL PRODUCE THE SAME LIKENESS TO THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

    2)FIND A SEMI-DISTANT RELATIVE(COUSIN, COUSIN OF THE MOTHER) THAT SHOW THE SAME PHENOTYPE TRAITS AND HOPE THAT THEY WILL PRODUCE THE SAME LIKENESS TO THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

    PROBLEM WITH NO. 1 is that everytime you breed too close...some of the desired traits go with the bad traits when they split off into each indiviual progeny....
    IN a "SOUP ANALOGY".... It is similar to the celery and the beef sticking to the carrots when you try to spoon out the carrots.... or the soup going along with grease when you try to spoon out the grease that floats on top.

    And you cannot.....and I am 100% certain...that you CANNOT dictate which genetic trait stays and which ones go....

    so in effect, you will have some individuals retaining the CUT, but losing the POWER, OR retaining the AGGRESSIVENESS, but losing a bit of the GAMENESS... or retaining the HEIGHT/STATION...but losing the BONE DENSITY...

    these are the SAD...BUT TRUE FACTS OF CLOSE INBREEDING.

    I have always gone the route of NO. 2... if you keep selecting like traits that you find desirable within a family or clan.... it will manifest itself for as long as you keep selecting the following generations to be of the same...

    A GENETIC TRAIT FOR GAMENESS OR CUT OR HIGH BREAKING....WILL NOT PREJUDICE ANOTHER GENETIC TRAIT of THE SAME.. COMING FROM BLOOD THAT IS NOT CLOSELY RELATED AND SAY..."HEY YOU ARE NOT INVITED TO THIS PARTY..." LIKE IT OR NOT, HE WILL JOIN THAT PARTY.....AND THE MORE CONDENSED THE GENETIC POOL FOR CERTAIN TRAITS ....THE HEALTHIER AND MORE ROBUST THE PERFORMANCE INDIVIDUAL WILL BE.

    THE MORE YOU ISOLATE CERTAIN TRAITS UNTIL YOU ARE LEFT WITH VERY LITTLE...DOES NOT HELP THE PERFORMANCE INDIVIDUAL.....

    THINK OF IT AS YOUR ARSENAL OF WEAPONS....

    IN THE EXAMPLE BELOW...the individual with very little gene pool .... can only say(another analogy) I HAVE ONE GENE FOR HIGH BREAKING FROM MY DAD'S SISTER...AND ONE GENE FOR GAMENESS ALSO FROM MY DAD'S SISTER.... AND ONE GENE FOR STATION ALSO FROM MY DAD'S SISTER...
    INTELLIGENT SELECTION is the name of the game

    I would rather have a small gene pool with all quality genes as a large one with a lot of good and bad genes.



    WHILE if you breed by way of No. 2.....you will be adding similar gene traits to the PERFORMANCE INDIVIDUAL...so he can say.....
    I have 4 genetic traits for POWER from my Dad's cousin, my mom's Aunt, my Aunt's half brother, and my grandfather...... I also have 6 genetic traits for CUT.....from my...so on and so forth....

    Remember....as TAN BARK use to say....(not in the exact words) No one person was given the gift of GOD to be so INFALLIBLE that he can go on breeding too close and not destroy his family of fowl..

    fOLKS, it is easy to talk about magical brother-sister matings for 3 or more generations....JUST TRY IT YOURSELVES.....lets see if you won't come out of it crying and almost bankrupt...

    glenn
    Last edited by expressdelivery; May 8th, 2008 at 06:10 AM.

  10. #430
    Senior Member OREVON's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Read the book of Dr. Andrew T. Bunan on "Ang lihim ng pagbuo ng sariling linyada".

    From this book I've learned that brother - sister mating is the best when you'd like to maintain their blood composition BUT you have to limit this method up to 3 generations ONLY to avoid breeding depression. Then you can apply back crossing or rotational crossing to keep it further.

  11. #431
    Senior Member RalSuBirds's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by RalSuBirds
    LOL ... the above alone has inconsistency ......

    Mr. Boles ,,, you are sticking on inbreeding [a term which seems you do not know what it means] ..... and then you said you learned from the exotic bird breeders ... they/we are right ,,, you are wrong sir ...

    As I have told you earlier ,,, each breed have started from inbreeding and as they multiply their population ... their relationship goes farther apart carrying with them the same genetic make-up ... that is why so long as they are pure they still produce their own kind - unless mated by unpure or if mutation takes place .....

    Mr. Boles ,,, a mourning dove in Illinois is no different from a mourning dove in California and if they mate they produce the same offspring with the same genetic make-up being mated to another mourning dove ,,, that is NOT inbreeding ... it makes more sense to call it linebreeding ...

    Mr. Boles ,,, they do that to keep/maintain the the purity of the genetic make-up of their stock .... and do NOT tell us that all or most of them do that by INBREEDING ..... I am more inclined to believe and think that they do that by LINE SELECTION - from the same breed/lineage and pure ...

    Another thing mr. Boles ,,, don't tell us that all or most of those breeders only breed pure ones ........ they do crossbreeding also for the purpose of improvement creating NEW ones aaand the QUEST FOR THE UNKNOWN .......


    *****This is not a disrespect to you Mr. Boles, Sir,,, but what you are saying from your post to post are so inconsistent .......
    ... keep trying folks ... you might hit the jack pot .....

  12. #432
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by OREVON
    Read the book of Dr. Andrew T. Bunan on "Ang lihim ng pagbuo ng sariling linyada".


    From this book I've learned that brother - sister mating is the best when you'd like to maintain their blood composition

    BUT you have to limit this method up to 3 generations ONLY to avoid breeding depression. .
    OREVON,

    FROM THAT BOOK......YOU HAVE LEARNED........FROM A WRITER..........WHO HAS NOT BRED AT ALL ...........CHICKENS FOR COMPETITION....................

    IT IS VERY EASY............TO DIGEST READING MATERIAL......................AND SAY THAT YOU HAVE LEARNED....................BUT UNTIL YOU TRY TO PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH..........THEN YOU WILL START TO CUSS OUT THE WRITER.................................

    SADLY, THE WRITER IS ONLY MOSTLY A WRITER.....................I KNOW THAT HE HAS NOT BRED ANYTHING FOR COMPETITION..................BUT IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO TRY IT......DO THE 3 GENERATIONS OF BROTHER-SISTER MATINGS................THEN CALL ME ON THE 3RD GENERATION..............THEN TELL ME IF YOU STILL LIKE THE IDEA.

    AFTERALL, WE ARE ALL STRIVING TO BE COCKFIGHTERS...................................... .............. NOT COCKTALKERS...
    Last edited by glenn; May 8th, 2008 at 06:13 AM.

  13. #433
    Senior Member RalSuBirds's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    .

    ... I've never read anybody's book about breeding .....

    ... [needless to say] but there are those so called scientific FACTS that we do NOT need to experience in order to prove them ... those that are "givens" .........

    ...... but please do not misunderstood me about this because I am not trying to disprove anyone .......

    .... but just stating the fact about the facts .............. regards
    ..........

    .
    Last edited by RalSuBirds; May 8th, 2008 at 12:55 PM.

  14. #434
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    I'd like to share a PM by a "known" american friend of ours who has been breeding his own fowls for around 35 years. He wishes not to be named here now for some important "reason"... so here is his PM to me after reading the posts here:
    __________________________________________________ __________________

    It is not that easy but, a tighter gene pool will have more consistancy than a gene pool that is loaded with everything under the sun.

    I belive like Hugh Norman, Breed them tight so when you cross them with another tight bred family, they have the ability that you have bred towards. With out a little inbreeding or Linebreeding, you will have a very hard time maintaining them. Also, if you bred just towards preformance with out trying to isolate it as best you can, you will always be serching for another bird to breed to your fowl when they get old.

    I see no reason to breed them so tight that depression does show up but breed them tight enough that they are as predictable as you can get them.

    For, example, you have Kelso's & Roundhead's that are bred tight & have lost a bit, due to being a little tight. They were both bred to your best expectations so when you cross them, you get the same nick that you did 10 years ago.

    Finding a Nick is hard, no dout & holding on to it is even harder, especially if the fowl you have do not ALL HAVE A VERY SIMILAR GENE POOL.

    Well, I have said enough. You are welcome to post anything I have said but if you do, just don't say it came from me for now.

    Here is the words from the master him self, that if I were you I would post as well.

    When we say GOOD fowl, we must answer the question GOOD FOR WHAT!! Brood fowl are one thing and pit fowl are another. Brood fowl must be linebred and inbred consequently they are not the better pit fowl. PIT FOWL must be crossed for vigor, etc. hence, are not suitable for brood fowl. Now the whole discussion begins about genetics and it is vast, hence I will not enter this discussion here. Yes, if one listens to what he hears from the CHICKEN PEOPLE, he must BECOME CONFUSED as THEY are not capable (as a rule) of discussing the subject. They are the USERS OF not PRODUCERS of the product.

    Regarding "the Rebels", they are a CREATION of several decades of planning and working. I have seven separate and distinct families. These fowl have stood all tests (practical) and are still good after more than forty years of active competition.

    If you are seriously interested in the sport of cocking, I would think a visit to our farm would be mutually beneficial . Call or drop me a line.

    Incidentally, there are only two kinds of gamefowl GOOD ONES and WORTHLESS ONES but we must decide what GOOD we wish.

    Best Wishes,

    Hugh Norman
    __________________________________________________ __________________

    To the man himself, thank you for sharing "again" your thoughts on the subject, you are truly a "plus" to the sport for sharing the knowledge you have even though at your current status... God bless you...

    Chris

    P.S.

    Mr. expressdelivery,

    I was thinking if he also sent the same PM to you? He is a common freind of ours here in the site...
    Last edited by cnucum; May 8th, 2008 at 01:10 PM.
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  15. #435
    Senior Member RalSuBirds's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    .

    ... uhmmm ,,, this is JUST ANOTHER GENETICS/BREEDING TALK ......

    ...... which is NO different from others has been saying here ......

    ........ of course breeding in ANY WAY = GENETICS
    ....


    Quote Originally Posted by glenn
    Folks,

    All these talks about GENETICS will always be mostly what it is all going to be....JUST TALK.

    I wish it was that easy to make computations and conclusions on how the genetic make up would turn out to be once you mate this and this to that and that....

    Never mind the exactness of the genetic make-up..... think about how it will manifest itself in the individual itself.... You think you can fix it?

    No matter how wonderful it sounds... spooning out the carrots is not that easy... unless the carrots represent a phenotype..(feather color, leg color, comb type, fighting style)

    What if that carrot represents genotype ? Can you look under the microscope and spoon it out?

    GAMENESS AND CUT are easily seen on an individual if you have tested him in the pit...
    But whether he still carries a gene for dunghill or non-cut....you won't know until it shows up down the line....

    There is no way of "LOCKING" genetic make-up....

    Beginner breeders tend to enjoy wallowing in the fantasy of creating the perfect soup...
    The blood composition being the "soup"

    They get so cooped-up in that mindframe that they totally forget what they are all breeding for in the first place..... PERFORMANCE....PERFORMANCE FOR WARRIORS THAT FIGHT TO THE DEATH.....

    There is a popular notion among Commercial breeders....that if the fowl does not spar well...its a PURE.. They tend to blame it on INBREEDING DEPRESSION...
    Another very popular Breeder here in P.I. is noted for this statement " if my chickens don't move well...my mouth will move for them"

    In the total amount of time, money, effort....my good friend and chicken partner Alvin Lim and myself have spent breeding fowl.....we have never come across a Broodcock of inferior fighting qualities that PRODUCED performance fowl.

    We have learned not to breed too close(like brother-sister/father-daughter) because it will ultimately result in INBREEDING DEPRESSION.

    It is much better to select the breeding individuals first on their merits of health, conformation, cutting and fighting ability....(in the knife game...it is always cutting and fighting ability)......To test for gameness....we will fight some of the sons in the short knife and long gaff at the farm....

    Bottom line....select thru physical manifestations and fight results.... You can still breed a family or a line that will exhibit a uniform fighting style.... identical and uniform physical traits.. and uniform fighting attitude (desire to dominate) without breeding too close....

    DO NOT LET BLOOD FIGHT FOR YOU.....LET PERFORMANCE FIGHT FOR YOU....

  16. #436
    Senior Member nilodeleon's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    let's make it simple, breed A cock to B hen, then breed A to AB & B to AB, test them in the pit, see who got the better W% the cock line or the hen line. then breed the winning line back to parents and do what breeding method you think to avoid the inbreeding depression.
    kid

  17. #437
    Senior Member OREVON's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenn
    OREVON,

    FROM THAT BOOK......YOU HAVE LEARNED........FROM A WRITER..........WHO HAS NOT BRED AT ALL ...........CHICKENS FOR COMPETITION....................

    IT IS VERY EASY............TO DIGEST READING MATERIAL......................AND SAY THAT YOU HAVE LEARNED....................BUT UNTIL YOU TRY TO PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH..........THEN YOU WILL START TO CUSS OUT THE WRITER.................................

    SADLY, THE WRITER IS ONLY MOSTLY A WRITER.....................I KNOW THAT HE HAS NOT BRED ANYTHING FOR COMPETITION..................BUT IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO TRY IT......DO THE 3 GENERATIONS OF BROTHER-SISTER MATINGS................THEN CALL ME ON THE 3RD GENERATION..............THEN TELL ME IF YOU STILL LIKE THE IDEA.

    AFTERALL, WE ARE ALL STRIVING TO BE COCKFIGHTERS...................................... .............. NOT COCKTALKERS...
    You are absolutely right Mr. Glen.

    I don't know Andrew Bunan personally but I still believe on the things he wrote in his book because I'm sure that before he wrote something he had made research and studies of what he wants to share.

    He will not dare to drag the names of Emoy Gorgonia (may he rest in peace) and Mayor Juancho Aguirre just to sell his books.

    He became Resident Geneticist for Emoy's TV program TUKAAN. He also partnered with Doc Ayong Lorenzo in managing the EL DIA Game Fowl Farm and wrote another book with Doc Ayong and Emoy - PHILIPPINE COCKING FUNDAMENTALS.

    His book "Lihim sa Pagbuo ng Sariling Linyada" also received a compliments from the man himself Mayor Juancho Aguirre (a well known personality in breeding). Im sure the mayor himself will not give good comments on this book if the writer doesn't know what he's talking about.

    Now tell me again, do I have to believe what I've read in this book?

    Just like you Mr. Glen, I don't know you personally but if you were recommended by known personality in the field of breeding like Sonny Lagon or Biboy Enriquez or Nene Abello, surely I will believe on what you will write or say in guiding neophyte people like us in the world of breeding (only if your heart is clean).

    Regards.

  18. #438
    Senior Member Taga_Cebu's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    has anybody here tried linebreeding or inbreeding heavily say linebreeding to the cock or henside and have went as far as 15/16 or farther to that chickens blood ... or have tried bro-sister method and have accomplished at least to the F2 of bro-sis mating ?

    What are the results that you have ?...good or bad ?

    There seems to be so much negativity to inbreeding but we also know as well that a family can be ruined by outcrossing.

  19. #439
    CyberFriends sa pula sa puti's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Good Luck to all the breeders,,,,
    The reading public could only say thank you,,,,
    We learned a lot out of your discussions,,,,
    Not only in breeding,,,,but in GMRC as well
    Cheers.................

  20. #440
    Senior Member marcusrn's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    what is the intended meaning of 'locked genes' ? the term itself is problematic. by reading the posts, it seems like it is interpreted differently by different people i think (good for producing a lot of ideas but not too good for discussion). I'm one who does not believe genes can be locked.

    even the the term gene pool is taken differently by different people. I, for one, take the gene pool as the totality of available genes in a community or flock while some imply that an individual (1 chicken) has a gene pool. I, call that the genotype of the individual and not gene pool.

  21. #441
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by OREVON
    You are absolutely right Mr. Glen.

    I don't know Andrew Bunan personally but I still believe on the things he wrote in his book because I'm sure that before he wrote something he had made research and studies of what he wants to share.

    === RESEARCH ? AND STUDIES ?..........THIS CAN ONLY BE COMPLETELY DONE IF YOU ACTUALLY BREED FIGHTING FOWL AS OUTLINED ACCORDING TO THE THEORIES WRITTEN IN THE BOOK....====

    ===DON'T GET ME WRONG...THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE THEORIES IN THE BOOK...BUT I AM SURE YOU HAVE LOOKED UP THE WORD THEORY IN THE DICTIONARY....REMEMBER THESE ARE GENETIC THEORIES BORROWED FROM FINDINGS RELATING TO BREEDING POULTRY.....NOT GAMECOCKS=====

    ====BREEDING GAMECOCKS .....SPECIMENS FOR COMBAT....FIGHTING TO THE DEATH.... ALSO REQUIRE STUDY AND RESEARCH....AND THIS HAS ONLY BEEN DONE BY COCKERS WHO HAVE SPENT COUNTLESS TIME, PATIENCE, AND MONEY ACTUALLY BREEDING THEIR OWN FOWL...TO COME UP WITH THE DESIRED RESULTS.... PERFORMANCE FOWL...

    He will not dare to drag the names of Emoy Gorgonia (may he rest in peace) and Mayor Juancho Aguirre just to sell his books.

    ====THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PUBLISHING A BOOK ON GENETIC THEORIES AND IT WILL GUIDE THE READER AS TO HOW TO GO ABOUT HIS BREEDING PLAN..==

    ====AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A LITTLE PRAISE FROM KNOWN BREEDERS TO HELP ENDORSE THE BOOK TO HELP MAKE IT SELL.... THE PEOPLE WHO ENDORSED THE BOOK HAVE DONE SO WITH GOOD INTENTION SEEING THAT THE BOOK IS ABOUT THEORIES IN GENETICS====

    ====BUT IF I WERE GIVEN A CHOICE BETWEEN HAVING TO LEARN ABOUT BREEDING FIGHTING COCKS FROM A BOOK ON GENETICS OR FROM AN EXPERIENCED BREEDER WHO HAS TRIED MANY WAYS TO BREED SUPERIOR FOWL.... WITHOUT BLINKING AN EYE...I WOULD CHOOSE THE BREEDER...NOT A WRITER WHO HAS NOT BRED ANYTHING====

    He became Resident Geneticist for Emoy's TV program TUKAAN. He also partnered with Doc Ayong Lorenzo in managing the EL DIA Game Fowl Farm and wrote another book with Doc Ayong and Emoy - PHILIPPINE COCKING FUNDAMENTALS.

    His book "Lihim sa Pagbuo ng Sariling Linyada" also received a compliments from the man himself Mayor Juancho Aguirre (a well known personality in breeding). Im sure the mayor himself will not give good comments on this book if the writer doesn't know what he's talking about.

    === LET ME REMIND YOU THAT THE BOOK IS A BOOK ON GENETIC THEORIES BASED ON BREEDING POULTRY.......THERE HAS NOT BEEN ANY EXTENSIVE DOCUMENTED STUDIES ON BREEDING PERFORMANCE FIGHTING FOWL....WHICH IS WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE GENETIC SCIENTISTS DO (BUT WHO IS GOING TO FUND IT).===

    ====THERE ARE SOME OF THE THEORIES THAT CAN BE EASILY APPLIED TO BREEDING GAMECOCKS....LIKE, COLOR SELECTION, COMB TYPE... BUT WHEN IT COMES TO FIGHTING PERFORMANCE...THIS IS WHERE THE GUESSING BEGINS...====

    ====DON'T GET ME WRONG...THE WRITER KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT...IN TERMS OF GENETIC THEORIES....(AS BORROWED FROM OTHER POULTRY GENETIC BOOKS) BUT SINCE WE WERE DISCUSSING ABOUT "INBREEDING" OR "LOCKING GENES" AND ITS EFFECTS IN THE "HEALTH, VITALITY, VIGOR, FIGHTING PERFORMANCE OF THE GAMECOCK" THEN, WE COME TO A VERY DIFFERENT ARENA....THIS ENDEVOUR HAS ONLY BEEN DONE BY EXPERIENCED GAMECOCK BREEDERS...AND NO GENETIC SCIENTIST CAN CLAIM THAT HE KNOWS MORE THAN THE GAMECOCK BREEDER..===


    Now tell me again, do I have to believe what I've read in this book?

    Just like you Mr. Glen, I don't know you personally but if you were recommended by known personality in the field of breeding like Sonny Lagon or Biboy Enriquez or Nene Abello, surely I will believe on what you will write or say in guiding neophyte people like us in the world of breeding (only if your heart is clean).

    ====WELL SIR....IF BY WHAT YOU ESTABLISHED ABOVE AS YOUR ONLY GUAGE IN DETERMINING TRUST AND CONFIDENCE IN ANYONE'S CREDIBILITY.......THEN YOU ARE LIABE TO BUY MANY PRODUCTS FROM THE "TV SHOPPING NETWORK" WHERE THEY SELL PRODUCTS BY THE MILLIONS BECAUSE SOME CELEBRITY ENDORSES IT.=====

    ====MY PURPOSE OF TRYING TO AWAKEN MY FELLOW COCKERS ESPECIALLY BEGINNERS ON THE REALITIES OF BREEDING AND OTHER SUBJECT RELATING TO GAMECOCKS IS JUST TO HELP..... TO HOPEFULLY, LET OTHER PEOPLE UNDERSTAND AND DO IN A SHORTER TIME FRAME...WHAT TOOK ME YEARS TO DISCOVER...====

    ====JUST BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ANY COCKING PERSONALITIES (LIKE THE ONES YOU MENTIONED ABOVE) ENDORSING WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN ON THIS FORUM....DOES NOT MEAN I DO NOT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT OR MEAN THAT I HAVE NOT DONE AND EXPERIENCED FIRST HAND WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT.=====

    ====SO I CLOSE BY SAYING...I WOULD LIKE TO HELP EVERYONE.....BUT NOT EVERYONE WILL HAVE AN OPEN MIND......SO YOU CAN TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.....====



    =====LASTLY, ON THIS BOARD I HAVE ALWAYS INTENDED TO HELP....NO MATTER WHETHER I COME ACROSS NEGATIVE FEEDBACK....I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO BECAUSE I LIKE TO SHARE MY EXPERIENCES BECAUSE I FEEL GENEROUS AND MY HEART IS CLEAN====



    Regards.

  22. #442
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by OREVON
    You are absolutely right Mr. Glen.

    I don't know Andrew Bunan personally but I still believe on the things he wrote in his book because I'm sure that before he wrote something he had made research and studies of what he wants to share.


    === RESEARCH ? AND STUDIES ?..........THIS CAN ONLY BE COMPLETELY DONE IF YOU ACTUALLY BREED FIGHTING FOWL AS OUTLINED ACCORDING TO THE THEORIES WRITTEN IN THE BOOK....====

    ===DON'T GET ME WRONG...THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE THEORIES IN THE BOOK...BUT I AM SURE YOU HAVE LOOKED UP THE WORD THEORY IN THE DICTIONARY....REMEMBER THESE ARE GENETIC THEORIES BORROWED FROM FINDINGS RELATING TO BREEDING POULTRY.....NOT GAMECOCKS=====

    ====BREEDING GAMECOCKS .....SPECIMENS FOR COMBAT....FIGHTING TO THE DEATH.... ALSO REQUIRE STUDY AND RESEARCH....AND THIS HAS ONLY BEEN DONE BY COCKERS WHO HAVE SPENT COUNTLESS TIME, PATIENCE, AND MONEY ACTUALLY BREEDING THEIR OWN FOWL...TO COME UP WITH THE DESIRED RESULTS.... PERFORMANCE FOWL...


    He will not dare to drag the names of Emoy Gorgonia (may he rest in peace) and Mayor Juancho Aguirre just to sell his books.

    ====THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PUBLISHING A BOOK ON GENETIC THEORIES AND IT WILL GUIDE THE READER AS TO HOW TO GO ABOUT HIS BREEDING PLAN..==

    ====AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A LITTLE PRAISE FROM KNOWN BREEDERS TO HELP ENDORSE THE BOOK TO HELP MAKE IT SELL.... THE PEOPLE WHO ENDORSED THE BOOK HAVE DONE SO WITH GOOD INTENTION SEEING THAT THE BOOK IS ABOUT THEORIES IN GENETICS====

    ====BUT IF I WERE GIVEN A CHOICE BETWEEN HAVING TO LEARN ABOUT BREEDING FIGHTING COCKS FROM A BOOK ON GENETICS OR FROM AN EXPERIENCED BREEDER WHO HAS TRIED MANY WAYS TO BREED SUPERIOR FOWL.... WITHOUT BLINKING AN EYE...I WOULD CHOOSE THE BREEDER...NOT A WRITER WHO HAS NOT BRED ANYTHING====


    He became Resident Geneticist for Emoy's TV program TUKAAN. He also partnered with Doc Ayong Lorenzo in managing the EL DIA Game Fowl Farm and wrote another book with Doc Ayong and Emoy - PHILIPPINE COCKING FUNDAMENTALS.

    His book "Lihim sa Pagbuo ng Sariling Linyada" also received a compliments from the man himself Mayor Juancho Aguirre (a well known personality in breeding). Im sure the mayor himself will not give good comments on this book if the writer doesn't know what he's talking about.


    === LET ME REMIND YOU THAT THE BOOK IS A BOOK ON GENETIC THEORIES BASED ON BREEDING POULTRY.......THERE HAS NOT BEEN ANY EXTENSIVE DOCUMENTED STUDIES ON BREEDING PERFORMANCE FIGHTING FOWL....WHICH IS WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE GENETIC SCIENTISTS DO (BUT WHO IS GOING TO FUND IT).===

    ====THERE ARE SOME OF THE THEORIES THAT CAN BE EASILY APPLIED TO BREEDING GAMECOCKS....LIKE, COLOR SELECTION, COMB TYPE... BUT WHEN IT COMES TO FIGHTING PERFORMANCE...THIS IS WHERE THE GUESSING GAME BEGINS...====

    ====DON'T GET ME WRONG...THE WRITER KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT...IN TERMS OF GENETIC THEORIES....(AS BORROWED FROM OTHER POULTRY GENETIC BOOKS) BUT SINCE WE WERE DISCUSSING ABOUT "INBREEDING" OR "LOCKING GENES" AND ITS EFFECTS IN THE "HEALTH, VITALITY, VIGOR, FIGHTING PERFORMANCE OF THE GAMECOCK" THEN, WE COME TO A VERY DIFFERENT ARENA....THIS ENDEVOUR HAS ONLY BEEN DONE BY EXPERIENCED GAMECOCK BREEDERS...AND NO GENETIC SCIENTIST CAN CLAIM THAT HE KNOWS MORE THAN THE GAMECOCK BREEDER..===



    Now tell me again, do I have to believe what I've read in this book?

    Just like you Mr. Glen, I don't know you personally but if you were recommended by known personality in the field of breeding like Sonny Lagon or Biboy Enriquez or Nene Abello, surely I will believe on what you will write or say in guiding neophyte people like us in the world of breeding (only if your heart is clean).


    ====WELL SIR....IF BY WHAT YOU ESTABLISHED ABOVE AS YOUR ONLY GUAGE IN DETERMINING TRUST AND CONFIDENCE IN ANYONE'S CREDIBILITY.......THEN YOU ARE LIABE TO BUY MANY PRODUCTS FROM THE "TV SHOPPING NETWORK" WHERE THEY SELL PRODUCTS BY THE MILLIONS BECAUSE SOME CELEBRITY ENDORSES IT.=====

    ====MY PURPOSE OF TRYING TO AWAKEN MY FELLOW COCKERS ESPECIALLY BEGINNERS ON THE REALITIES OF BREEDING AND OTHER SUBJECT RELATING TO GAMECOCKS IS JUST TO HELP..... TO HOPEFULLY, LET OTHER PEOPLE UNDERSTAND AND DO IN A SHORTER TIME FRAME...WHAT TOOK ME YEARS TO DISCOVER...====

    ====JUST BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ANY COCKING PERSONALITIES (LIKE THE ONES YOU MENTIONED ABOVE) ENDORSING WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN ON THIS FORUM....DOES NOT MEAN I DO NOT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT OR MEAN THAT I HAVE NOT DONE AND EXPERIENCED FIRST HAND WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT.=====


    ====SO I CLOSE BY SAYING...I WOULD LIKE TO HELP EVERYONE.....BUT NOT EVERYONE WILL HAVE AN OPEN MIND......SO YOU CAN TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.....====



    =====LASTLY, ON THIS BOARD I HAVE ALWAYS INTENDED TO HELP....NO MATTER WHETHER I COME ACROSS NEGATIVE FEEDBACK....I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO BECAUSE I LIKE TO SHARE MY EXPERIENCES BECAUSE I FEEL GENEROUS AND MY HEART IS CLEAN====




    Regards.
    [/SIZE][/COLOR]
    Last edited by glenn; May 26th, 2008 at 07:04 AM.

  23. #443
    Senior Member chuckeee2's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    example Of A Locked Genes Is The 'red Jungle Fowl'.

  24. #444
    Senior Member RalSuBirds's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    ... more and more genetics "just talks" .......

    .... genetics is all about heredity ,,, heredity and heredity ......

    .... Gregor Mendel is the father of heredity and he discovered genetics on a PLANT [the pea] and yet the science of heredity applies the same way to humans and animals ......


    .... yes Mr. Glenn ... your good intention [to help] deserves appreciation .... however ,,, NOT every good intention will always end up to good result ....

    ...... but ,,, ahhhem ,,, maybe your technique/method does work good .....

    ..... you beginners out there you better pay attention and trust on the credibility of mr. glenn ... instead of others ... or at least add him to your list of breeding mentors ....

    ...... regards to all ........

    .
    Last edited by RalSuBirds; May 27th, 2008 at 01:48 AM.

  25. #445
    CyberFriends shanebo's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    I agree with Glenn(The Main Man From Cebu)... There is nothing wrong with Theories....but remember they are just Theories. If I was breeding layers or broilers...Theories from a book are good enough, but when breeding fowl for Performance...There is only one way and that is trial and error. The word Proven means alot in breeding gamefowl and sometimes it takes years of breeding and testing to be able to say "That line is a Proven line".

    ====BUT IF I WERE GIVEN A CHOICE BETWEEN HAVING TO LEARN ABOUT BREEDING FIGHTING COCKS FROM A BOOK ON GENETICS OR FROM AN EXPERIENCED BREEDER WHO HAS TRIED MANY WAYS TO BREED SUPERIOR FOWL.... WITHOUT BLINKING AN EYE...I WOULD CHOOSE THE BREEDER...NOT A WRITER WHO HAS NOT BRED ANYTHING====

    I could not agree more with the above quote
    People get caught up in Genetics and forget all about Performance. I would rather have 50 roosters that could cut your ass from any angle and has a heart the size of an Elephant, than 50 roosters that all look uniformed...U can take that to the Bank
    Just My Thoughts!!!
    Keep posting Glenn....I go out of my way to read what you and Wildfoot post here...Thanks

  26. #446
    Senior Member chuckeee2's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    ....oh i forgot some more sample of locked genes,

    1. 45 days table meat
    2. the white leghorns
    3. wild turkeys
    4. the aetas
    5. the carabaos

    ...and so and so, even the tamaraws now are locked, but it is a crossed way back, what else

  27. #447
    raptortiger
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    1. Linebreed/Inbreed
    2. Sex-link Bro. and sis. Mating
    3. Another way is keen eye observation and selection.

  28. #448
    Senior Member RalSuBirds's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckeee2
    example Of A Locked Genes Is The 'red Jungle Fowl'.
    ... why not define "locked genes" ... where did you get it ??? ...

    .

  29. #449
    Senior Member ManiX's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by sa pula sa puti
    Good Luck to all the breeders,,,,
    The reading public could only say thank you,,,,
    We learned a lot out of your discussions,,,,
    Not only in breeding,,,,but in GMRC as well
    Cheers.................

    same here too.... God bless as all

  30. #450
    Senior Member chuckeee2's Avatar
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    Re: Another Way Of Locking Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by RalSuBirds
    ... why not define "locked genes" ... where did you get it ??? ...

    .
    you don't know what 'locked' means?!

    ...it means you put something in a safe box and closed with a key.

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