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Thread: tari blades: (how to?)

  
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    tari blades: (how to?)

    i was wondering if anyone here could help me to understand the blade making process a little better. if i was to buy some "flat bars" from crucible materials or admiral steel like: cpm-m4 or cpm-s30v would i cut the blade shape out of the flat bar first then heat treat then sharpen the blades? or would i cut the blades out of the flat bar, sharpen the blades then heat treat? could you also explain the process of heat treatment to me for the different materials like cpm-s30v and cpm-m4? is this a project that i could do at home or would i need to take the blades to a shop to have it done, and if i did need to have a shop do it what would i need to ask them to do to the blades to make sure that they were heat treated correctly? one last question, is there any steel that can be made into tari that just needs to be cut into shape, sharpened, and attached to the garol that dont require a heat treatment process that will perform as well as a tari made of cpm-m4 that has been heat treated properly? thanks in advance for shareing your knowledge........

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    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo_kaiser
    i was wondering if anyone here could help me to understand the blade making process a little better. if i was to buy some "flat bars" from crucible materials or admiral steel like: cpm-m4 or cpm-s30v would i cut the blade shape out of the flat bar first then heat treat then sharpen the blades? or would i cut the blades out of the flat bar, sharpen the blades then heat treat? could you also explain the process of heat treatment to me for the different materials like cpm-s30v and cpm-m4? is this a project that i could do at home or would i need to take the blades to a shop to have it done, and if i did need to have a shop do it what would i need to ask them to do to the blades to make sure that they were heat treated correctly? one last question, is there any steel that can be made into tari that just needs to be cut into shape, sharpened, and attached to the garol that dont require a heat treatment process that will perform as well as a tari made of cpm-m4 that has been heat treated properly? thanks in advance for shareing your knowledge........
    kimo kaiser,

    I think your last question is the easiest way to make tari. Buy a band saw Eclipse brand which is the approximate size of 1 1/2" wide, 14 inches long and the thickness is probably 3/32" or maybe 1/16". Have this saw blade cut into the shape of the blade. I've tried cutting the blade myself and you can do it by using a power tool like an angle grinder. Buy the metal cutter from Harbor Freight. A 10-pack made in Russia cost about $6.00. You can cut 6 malaysian style blade out of one Eclipse saw blade. Once you cut the blade in shape have it braze to the garol. In the Philippines they'll charge you I think about 50 pesos for each blade brazed to the garol. After that is done you'll need to get the blade sharpen and that will cost 150 pesos per blade. The good thing is you won't worry about the tempering anymore.

  3. #3
    filamforks
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    I agree with what Camarines said above. You can also use Ultramajor power hacksaw blades. The ones that are a little bit thicker than 1/16". As for the CPM S30V flat bar, get the ones with 3/32" thickness. The width will depend on how you'll make your knife. If you want your CPM blade welded to the "garol", then you can buy them in 1" or 1 1/2" wide. My FilAm fork knives are of one piece construction so I buy my flat CPM S30V bars at 2" wide. And yes, you have to cut them in shape as per your design, grind them to about 90% finish, then temper them if you know how to do it. Like all other steel, CPMs also have their own specific way of being tempered. The easiest way though(if you don't know how to temper like me) is to just send them to a profesional knife maker(not necessarily a tari maker) and they'll do it for you with a fee. I suggest that you visit a profesional knife(tari) makers shop to see first hand the different equipments needed for "tari" making. Best of luck to you.

    filamforks

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    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Previously, I used ATS 34 by Hitachi but now I use CPM S30V, I shape the blades myself then get them professionally heat treated by a company in New Zealand using computer controlled electric furnaces, the hardening process is done as per the Crucible data sheets including cryogenic treatment and double tempering. I then have the garol fitted into them by tari makers in Pinas under my personal supervision. After that, I have them sharpened. My last batch was done by August Moon in Cebu, I'm very pleased with the results.

  5. #5
    gerka
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigolleto
    Previously, I used ATS 34 by Hitachi but now I use CPM S30V, I shape the blades myself then get them professionally heat treated by a company in New Zealand using computer controlled electric furnaces, the hardening process is done as per the Crucible data sheets including cryogenic treatment and double tempering. I then have the garol fitted into them by tari makers in Pinas under my personal supervision. After that, I have them sharpened. My last batch was done by August Moon in Cebu, I'm very pleased with the results.
    Wow...sir Rigolleto i didnt know you have the talent for blade making sir, thought you're all girl bounded,hehehe ...do you tie the chickens yourself sir?...have a nice trip sir...

    Pagtatari...that's one aspect of cockfighting i'd like to try someday....

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    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by gerka
    Wow...sir Rigolleto i didnt know you have the talent for blade making sir, thought you're all girl bounded,hehehe ...do you tie the chickens yourself sir?...have a nice trip sir...

    Pagtatari...that's one aspect of cockfighting i'd like to try someday....

    been tying my own knives since i was in high school hehehe !!! I started dabbling in knife making 6 years ago

  7. #7
    gerka
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Will you be bringing home some of those blades sir?...am sure they are more realible than the local ones....

  8. #8
    gerka
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    I really wanted to learn knife tying...it's a different feeling when you breed and tie your own rooster, at least it's all in your hands and not blame the mananari anymore....

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    Senior Member mode0's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Felon
    So the blade is made seperate, then you braze it to the fork?I though they were made in one piece.I want to try and make a short knife.
    that way you can salvage the fork and re-use it.

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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Felon
    so you can also use a band saw or hack saw blade to make a knife??Maybe im thinking of the wrong type of bandsaw/hacksaw blade but the ones ive seen are soft and easily bendable, i use them to trim spurs.Am i thinkin of the wrong kind?Or is there some that dont bend?
    THIS DOESN'T BEND.

    http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/...sp?GroupID=578

    get the redstripe.

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    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Felon
    So the blade is made seperate, then you braze it to the fork?I though they were made in one piece.I want to try and make a short knife.


    Quote Originally Posted by mode0
    that way you can salvage the fork and re-use it.


    I used to prefer one piece knives but because I use the stock reduction method and not forging, one piece is no longer practical. It would be a waste to use high quality steel just for the fork. Just be careful that the blade does not get heated up too much or it would lose its temper. I stick the blade into a potato exposing only the part to be brazed and use a pinpoint oxy-acetylene tip to concentrate the heat only in this area. I am thinking of using a combination of rivets and epoxy resin on my next tari design to overcome this heat issue

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    Senior Member karabiti's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Felon
    so you can also use a band saw or hack saw blade to make a knife??Maybe im thinking of the wrong type of bandsaw/hacksaw blade but the ones ive seen are soft and easily bendable, i use them to trim spurs.Am i thinkin of the wrong kind?Or is there some that dont bend?
    i have a new knife here and i will use it this coming nov 18.
    but it will be more exciting and it will be my pleasure to use it on you.

  13. #13
    Senior Member mode0's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigolleto
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Felon
    So the blade is made seperate, then you braze it to the fork?I though they were made in one piece.I want to try and make a short knife.






    I used to prefer one piece knives but because I use the stock reduction method and not forging, one piece is no longer practical. It would be a waste to use high quality steel just for the fork. Just be careful that the blade does not get heated up too much or it would lose its temper. I stick the blade into a potato exposing only the part to be brazed and use a pinpoint oxy-acetylene tip to concentrate the heat only in this area. I am thinking of using a combination of rivets and epoxy resin on my next tari design to overcome this heat issue
    since your only heating the part that goes into the neck(bolster) of the fork, the potato will do the trick. how about using safety-silv 56, melts at 1200F, it only take seconds to reach the desired temp.

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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    ok, so say i buy some starrett or eclipse power saw blades, what is the basic process and what kind of tools will i need?, grinder?, torch? what kind of grinding wheel, grit ect. ? to make my tari out of the saw blades? how do i cut the shape of the tari? are there any helpful tips that you can give to a beginer to help us to avoid making some costly mistakes?..............oh and 1 more question, will these blades rust easily once the paint has been grinded off?

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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo_kaiser
    ok, so say i buy some starrett or eclipse power saw blades, what is the basic process and what kind of tools will i need?, grinder?, torch? what kind of grinding wheel, grit ect. ? to make my tari out of the saw blades? how do i cut the shape of the tari? are there any helpful tips that you can give to a beginer to help us to avoid making some costly mistakes?..............oh and 1 more question, will these blades rust easily once the paint has been grinded off?
    rust? =yes use oil if not in use.

    first you make a template and then transfer that into your metal.

    wet cut-off wheel would be the ideal to use, that way it won't ruin the temper of the steel.

    If you really wanna learn the art of knife making get a book or go to barnes and nobles and the basic first. I suggest practice from a cheap(ordinary) steel, before you start ruining your expensive steel.

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    Senior Member earan's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by gerka
    Will you be bringing home some of those blades sir?...am sure they are more realible than the local ones....
    At first i send my CPM-S30V blades to a professional heat treater, but the result is not satisfactory for knife application. I try for the second time till the fourth time, still the result is not satisfactory. So i've made a DOE, trying all the combination of the austenitizing temp (hardening temp) vs. tempering temp. I got different result, blade that is tough enough, but doesn't have the desired sharpness, blade that is hard enough (sharp), but doesn't have the desired toughness. When I got the desired combination of hardness and toughness, the blade will corrode losing its stainless properties, so i have to troubleshoot again. I almost gave up on this steel material. A lot of money wasted on heat treatment, just to get good result.
    So what I'm saying is that, it doesn't mean that you send your knife blade material to a professional heat treater, and you get a good result. Let's say you want it heat treated to 60HRC, the heat treater can do it using high aust. temp. and low tempering temp, or low aust. temp. and high tempering temp., and still you get your heat treated blade at 60HRC, but using those different paramaters will give you different result.
    Steel being metamorphic can be heat treated to different hardness and toughness for different applications. Just treat your blades for knife purposes with a good combo of hardness and toughness...

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    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by earan
    At first i send my CPM-S30V blades to a professional heat treater, but the result is not satisfactory for knife application. I try for the second time till the fourth time, still the result is not satisfactory. So i've made a DOE, trying all the combination of the austenitizing temp (hardening temp) vs. tempering temp. I got different result, blade that is tough enough, but doesn't have the desired sharpness, blade that is hard enough (sharp), but doesn't have the desired toughness. When I got the desired combination of hardness and toughness, the blade will corrode losing its stainless properties, so i have to troubleshoot again. I almost gave up on this steel material. A lot of money wasted on heat treatment, just to get good result.
    So what I'm saying is that, it doesn't mean that you send your knife blade material to a professional heat treater, and you get a good result. Let's say you want it heat treated to 60HRC, the heat treater can do it using high aust. temp. and low tempering temp, or low aust. temp. and high tempering temp., and still you get your heat treated blade at 60HRC, but using those different paramaters will give you different result.
    Steel being metamorphic can be heat treated to different hardness and toughness for different applications. Just treat your blades for knife purposes with a good combo of hardness and toughness...
    Hi Earan, sorry to hear you had that much trouble with CPM S30V, I suppose it depends on who does the heat treatment. My blades were heat treated to 58-59HRC by this company in Auckland. This was achieved by following Crucible's supplied Data Chart and we never encountered any of the problems you mentioned. Have a look at their website below, go to the heat treating section and check out their air hardening capabilities, pretty impressive if I may say so.





    http://www.heat-treat.co.nz/
    Last edited by Rigolleto; November 7th, 2007 at 11:47 AM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member earan's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    rigolleto,

    the one who does heat treating for me is the authorized local distributor of CPM grades in PI. following the recomended heat treating parameters as suggested by crucible is not satisfactory (my customers can attest to this). I even emailed crucible and ask for a recommended paramaters for knife, but still the result was not satisfactory (for me). i even look at bladeforum to get some idea. that's why i decided to conduct a DOE to get better result. now i think i got the best parameters for this steel.
    i learned a lot from this steel. just sharing my experience...

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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    earan:
    my direct email ako sayo, check it out please

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    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo_kaiser
    ok, so say i buy some starrett or eclipse power saw blades, what is the basic process and what kind of tools will i need?, grinder?, torch? what kind of grinding wheel, grit ect. ? to make my tari out of the saw blades? how do i cut the shape of the tari? are there any helpful tips that you can give to a beginer to help us to avoid making some costly mistakes?..............oh and 1 more question, will these blades rust easily once the paint has been grinded off?
    Checkout the wire cut method posted on this thread for knife pattern by Edong
    http://sabong.net.ph/forum/showthrea...ighlight=edong

  21. #21
    filamforks
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by earan
    rigolleto,

    the one who does heat treating for me is the authorized local distributor of CPM grades in PI. following the recomended heat treating parameters as suggested by crucible is not satisfactory (my customers can attest to this). I even emailed crucible and ask for a recommended paramaters for knife, but still the result was not satisfactory (for me). i even look at bladeforum to get some idea. that's why i decided to conduct a DOE to get better result. now i think i got the best parameters for this steel.
    i learned a lot from this steel. just sharing my experience...

    Hi there earan,

    What does "DOE" mean? I'm not quite sure if I'm getting you right but, are you heat treating your own knives(tari) now?

    Anyway, I've used the services of a profesional knife heat treater who is well known in bladeforum and I am very satisfied with the result. There are a lot of heat treating companies around but for our purpose, I think that the best knife heat treater should be considered. And it's all because of Application. JMHO.

    filamforks

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    Senior Member earan's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    hi filamforks,

    its nice to see you back in blade discussions!

    DOE means design of experiment. I combine low/med/high aust. temp with low/med/high tempering temp. and test the resulting samples. I am looking for a combination of high hardness with a good toughness by testing the tip of the blades. Most CPM-S30V users have their blades treated at a hardness of 58-59HRC, even Chris Reeves knives is also at this range. I got mine at 61-63HRC.
    I send my blades to a local shop (authorized CPM distributor in PI) for heat treatment.

  23. #23
    Senior Member ROM_PH's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Has anyone tried swiss knife steel as tari blade?

  24. #24
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Here's some tari discussion threads on the website, posted by banderado84
    http://sabong.net.ph/forum/showthrea...ht=banderado84

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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines
    Here's some tari discussion threads on the website, posted by banderado84
    http://sabong.net.ph/forum/showthrea...ht=banderado84




    Tukzz,,,, links are messed up





    ....wapen



    //

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    Member jovic_laraya1's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Same here bro. The links got messed up.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Felon
    Instead of brazing the blade to the fork can you just weld them together?
    I think brazing and welding are the same except in brazing you use less heat than welding. If you braze metal using bronze it will join the metal together and that it will melt the bronze but not the metal you're joining. In welding you will probably heat the metal up at the temperate that the steel will weld together by justing using flux.

    I think they also use silver to braze the garol to the blade.

  28. #28
    Senior Member mojo's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigolleto
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Felon
    So the blade is made seperate, then you braze it to the fork?I though they were made in one piece.I want to try and make a short knife.






    I used to prefer one piece knives but because I use the stock reduction method and not forging, one piece is no longer practical. It would be a waste to use high quality steel just for the fork. Just be careful that the blade does not get heated up too much or it would lose its temper. I stick the blade into a potato exposing only the part to be brazed and use a pinpoint oxy-acetylene tip to concentrate the heat only in this area. I am thinking of using a combination of rivets and epoxy resin on my next tari design to overcome this heat issue
    bored at work, I decided to make a sample drawing of what you just said. the dove tail will kept it in place. the pin part could be threaded to hold the backing plate in place.

    http://sabong.net.ph/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=71763&cat=500

    Last edited by mojo; November 8th, 2007 at 10:43 PM.

  29. #29
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    bored at work, I decided to make a sample drawing of what you just said. the dove tail will kept it in place. the pin part could be threaded to hold the backing plate in place.

    http://sabong.net.ph/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=71763&cat=500

    That is really a neat drawing. I came across an ad in The Gamecock where the gaff and knife are replaceable. It's call adjustaknife. I think it just have a hole and you can put a pin to hold the knife in place.

  30. #30
    Member jovic_laraya1's Avatar
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    Re: tari blades: (how to?)

    Thats a cool drawing there mate.....Cheers

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