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Thread: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

  
  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    A lot of good things has been said about this breed and true they are great in sparring. But a lot of breeders have seen this BB SWEATERS QUIT they are not game. Even Nene Abello confirmed it when we had convertion. Even Bebot Uy a respected breeder from Davao City is getting rid of this line. If this is true, why is that so? Please answer this BB sweater fanatics.

  2. #2
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Quote Originally Posted by victor
    Hi, Ya, I got some of Brians sweater Many years ago. I think I got around 3 trios from him.
    They got decent break, decent cut but lacked power and are slow. They dont have the ability as other sweaters ive seen. His blood comes from Bruce Barnett.
    didnt do all too well with them so I discarded them

    Best,
    Victor

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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    I like Brians sweater personally.

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    Senior Member arm's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Quote Originally Posted by ROY61479
    A lot of good things has been said about this breed and true they are great in sparring. But a lot of breeders have seen this BB SWEATERS QUIT they are not game. Even Nene Abello confirmed it when we had convertion. Even Bebot Uy a respected breeder from Davao City is getting rid of this line. If this is true, why is that so? Please answer this BB sweater fanatics.
    i really can't answer you as to why a "good number" of barnette sweaters sulk/quit. based on a little experience of having them, you're darn right as to their sparring ability; no question about it! they're awesome with lots of feet out. hence, i've decided not to discard their strain but, instead, crossed them with other sweater families. what i have now for the past 5 fighting seasons are df and bb sweater crossed; and, thus far my record with them is around 75-80% positive. my friend in california had the same problem and had done the same thing with a similar winning percentage.

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    Senior Member tres_mentiras's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    QUITTERS???

    There are many factors why roosters quit in the octagon, as Mr. Francis Afable of HATAW PINOY said in his portion "Itanong mo kay Prof. Mr. Afable said that among the reasons are:

    1) poor genes (quitter genes);

    2) poor health;

    3) encountered a traumatic experience when it was still a stag;

    4) poor preparation for the fight; etc.


    However, one factor to consider is the way Filipinos breed.

    Boy Marzo and Sonny Lagon's Bruce Barnett Sweaters ran during BAKBAKAN BULLSTAG last 2006, I think, if I am not mistaken.

    Nevertheless, we cannot just conclude that it is because of the bloodline, we could consider the way they are bred.

    Filipinos are PURISTS, if there is such a word, who would want to get pure strains, as much as possible, so they breed brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, and grandfather-grandaughter in order to get 3/4 blood.

    Genetically speaking, indeed, we are making a the genes similar, therefore resulting to similar offsprings. However, we should take into consideration the INBREEDING DEPRESSION.

    By INBREEDING, stocks become smaller, health becomes fragile and the gameness is definitely decreased. These are the observations not only by expert in the field of genetics or veterinarians, but most especially those who are really breeding hands-on.

    As a result, there will be those that will run, because of lack of gameness which resulted from inbreeding depression.

    Likewise, in humans, the law proscribes or prohibit marriages between relatives up to the 4th civil degree of consanguinity. Which means, a father cannot marry his daughter, nor first cousins could marry each other. The reason is simple--it is bad for the genes.

    Chickens are no different.

    Just like what arm did, he made a cross of his Dink Fair Sweaters x Bruce Barnett Sweaters. It is still a straight sweater, but with hybrid vigor. I would bet that assuming the Bruce Barnett Sweaters are really quitters, none the progenies out of the DF x BB would quit.

    In the States, Americans breed differently, just like ROY BRADY, who breeds his RADIO with a concoction of almost anything great he could lay his hands on. Besides, Frank Shy said, there's no such thing as PURE CHICKENS.

    HOW CAN I MAKE A BRUCE BARNETT SWEATER WITH HYBRID VIGOR???

    What you can do is purchase a Bruce Barnett Sweater from Blue Blade Gamefarm and purchase a Bruace Barnett Sweater from BM Bulalayaw which is an F3 of Mang Boy's matings. Then cross them, that would be a second-grandfather x a great granddaughter, the degress are far apart. Still a STRAIGHT BRUCE BARNETT, but not too tight, to affect the genes. Of course, within the propagation of the bloodline to meet the F3 no inbreeding should have occured. (Just hypothetical)

    Just sharing my thoughts.

    God bless

    Tres Mentiras

  6. #6
    Senior Member Ir192-Co60's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Nice inputs tres

    Quote Originally Posted by tres_mentiras
    QUITTERS???

    There are many factors why roosters quit in the octagon, as Mr. Francis Afable of HATAW PINOY said in his portion "Itanong mo kay Prof. Mr. Afable said that among the reasons are:

    1) poor genes (quitter genes);

    2) poor health;

    3) encountered a traumatic experience when it was still a stag;

    4) poor preparation for the fight; etc.

    However, one factor to consider is the way Filipinos breed.

    Boy Marzo and Sonny Lagon's Bruce Barnett Sweaters ran during BAKBAKAN BULLSTAG last 2006, I think, if I am not mistaken.

    Nevertheless, we cannot just conclude that it is because of the bloodline, we could consider the way they are bred.

    Filipinos are PURISTS, if there is such a word, who would want to get pure strains, as much as possible, so they breed brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, and grandfather-grandaughter in order to get 3/4 blood.

    Genetically speaking, indeed, we are making a the genes similar, therefore resulting to similar offsprings. However, we should take into consideration the INBREEDING DEPRESSION.

    By INBREEDING, stocks become smaller, health becomes fragile and the gameness is definitely decreased. These are the observations not only by expert in the field of genetics or veterinarians, but most especially those who are really breeding hands-on.

    As a result, there will be those that will run, because of lack of gameness which resulted from inbreeding depression.

    Likewise, in humans, the law proscribes or prohibit marriages between relatives up to the 4th civil degree of consanguinity. Which means, a father cannot marry his daughter, nor first cousins could marry each other. The reason is simple--it is bad for the genes.

    Chickens are no different.

    Just like what arm did, he made a cross of his Dink Fair Sweaters x Bruce Barnett Sweaters. It is still a straight sweater, but with hybrid vigor. I would bet that assuming the Bruce Barnett Sweaters are really quitters, none the progenies out of the DF x BB would quit.

    In the States, Americans breed differently, just like ROY BRADY, who breeds his RADIO with a concoction of almost anything great he could lay his hands on. Besides, Frank Shy said, there's no such thing as PURE CHICKENS.

    HOW CAN I MAKE A BRUCE BARNETT SWEATER WITH HYBRID VIGOR???

    What you can do is purchase a Bruce Barnett Sweater from Blue Blade Gamefarm and purchase a Bruace Barnett Sweater from BM Bulalayaw which is an F3 of Mang Boy's matings. Then cross them, that would be a second-grandfather x a great granddaughter, the degress are far apart. Still a STRAIGHT BRUCE BARNETT, but not too tight, to affect the genes. Of course, within the propagation of the bloodline to meet the F3 no inbreeding should have occured. (Just hypothetical)

    Just sharing my thoughts.

    God bless

    Tres Mentiras

  7. #7
    Member ClipperMan-2's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    I got a trio direct from BB last 2001, i fought the offsprings some pure and alot crossed in stags and cock derbies all over PI, havent experienced any sulking to b honest...BUT, all this change drastically when i borrowed a pure BB hen from a friend for infusion, the offspings of this particular hen are really good/smart but they not just quit but run too even w/ very minor injuries and way ahead of the fight, I got 2 draws and 1 Loss from a sure WINs situation coz they wont peck anymore and the other ran w/ dying opponents...I culled everything w/ that particular hens blood...But i retain my old line from the original trio...
    I think there's a BB line that really are quitters but i think there some that is game too if you're lucky...

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    Senior Member Kidd Sentencia's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    too deep inbreeding or linebreeding yan...too late to fix, so re-start...discard.

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    Senior Member silver2dmoon's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    As Caroll NeSmith had mentioned before, there are no secrets in successful breeding.
    First, you need to have excellent breeding materials.
    Second.... comes selection.

    I guess, we need to forget about the names tagged on these birds... and focus solely on the chicken. I heard Polegaff mention that his secret is his Lawn Chair. He spends countless hours watching and studying his birds. ;-)

    The tendency of most is to have a very high expectation on a bird for simple reason that it was obtained from Mr. So and So.... these breeders have satilite farms. Not all birds that they sell are theirs.



    Quote Originally Posted by tres_mentiras
    QUITTERS???

    There are many factors why roosters quit in the octagon, as Mr. Francis Afable of HATAW PINOY said in his portion "Itanong mo kay Prof. Mr. Afable said that among the reasons are:

    1) poor genes (quitter genes);

    2) poor health;

    3) encountered a traumatic experience when it was still a stag;

    4) poor preparation for the fight; etc.


    However, one factor to consider is the way Filipinos breed.

    Boy Marzo and Sonny Lagon's Bruce Barnett Sweaters ran during BAKBAKAN BULLSTAG last 2006, I think, if I am not mistaken.

    Nevertheless, we cannot just conclude that it is because of the bloodline, we could consider the way they are bred.

    Filipinos are PURISTS, if there is such a word, who would want to get pure strains, as much as possible, so they breed brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, and grandfather-grandaughter in order to get 3/4 blood.

    Genetically speaking, indeed, we are making a the genes similar, therefore resulting to similar offsprings. However, we should take into consideration the INBREEDING DEPRESSION.

    By INBREEDING, stocks become smaller, health becomes fragile and the gameness is definitely decreased. These are the observations not only by expert in the field of genetics or veterinarians, but most especially those who are really breeding hands-on.

    As a result, there will be those that will run, because of lack of gameness which resulted from inbreeding depression.

    Likewise, in humans, the law proscribes or prohibit marriages between relatives up to the 4th civil degree of consanguinity. Which means, a father cannot marry his daughter, nor first cousins could marry each other. The reason is simple--it is bad for the genes.

    Chickens are no different.

    Just like what arm did, he made a cross of his Dink Fair Sweaters x Bruce Barnett Sweaters. It is still a straight sweater, but with hybrid vigor. I would bet that assuming the Bruce Barnett Sweaters are really quitters, none the progenies out of the DF x BB would quit.

    In the States, Americans breed differently, just like ROY BRADY, who breeds his RADIO with a concoction of almost anything great he could lay his hands on. Besides, Frank Shy said, there's no such thing as PURE CHICKENS.

    HOW CAN I MAKE A BRUCE BARNETT SWEATER WITH HYBRID VIGOR???

    What you can do is purchase a Bruce Barnett Sweater from Blue Blade Gamefarm and purchase a Bruace Barnett Sweater from BM Bulalayaw which is an F3 of Mang Boy's matings. Then cross them, that would be a second-grandfather x a great granddaughter, the degress are far apart. Still a STRAIGHT BRUCE BARNETT, but not too tight, to affect the genes. Of course, within the propagation of the bloodline to meet the F3 no inbreeding should have occured. (Just hypothetical)

    Just sharing my thoughts.

    God bless

    Tres Mentiras
    Last edited by silver2dmoon; March 14th, 2008 at 01:04 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Quote Originally Posted by tres_mentiras
    QUITTERS???

    There are many factors why roosters quit in the octagon, as Mr. Francis Afable of HATAW PINOY said in his portion "Itanong mo kay Prof. Mr. Afable said that among the reasons are:

    1) poor genes (quitter genes);

    2) poor health;

    3) encountered a traumatic experience when it was still a stag;

    4) poor preparation for the fight; etc.


    However, one factor to consider is the way Filipinos breed.

    Boy Marzo and Sonny Lagon's Bruce Barnett Sweaters ran during BAKBAKAN BULLSTAG last 2006, I think, if I am not mistaken.

    Nevertheless, we cannot just conclude that it is because of the bloodline, we could consider the way they are bred.

    Filipinos are PURISTS, if there is such a word, who would want to get pure strains, as much as possible, so they breed brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, and grandfather-grandaughter in order to get 3/4 blood.

    Genetically speaking, indeed, we are making a the genes similar, therefore resulting to similar offsprings. However, we should take into consideration the INBREEDING DEPRESSION.

    By INBREEDING, stocks become smaller, health becomes fragile and the gameness is definitely decreased. These are the observations not only by expert in the field of genetics or veterinarians, but most especially those who are really breeding hands-on.

    As a result, there will be those that will run, because of lack of gameness which resulted from inbreeding depression.

    Likewise, in humans, the law proscribes or prohibit marriages between relatives up to the 4th civil degree of consanguinity. Which means, a father cannot marry his daughter, nor first cousins could marry each other. The reason is simple--it is bad for the genes.

    Chickens are no different.

    Just like what arm did, he made a cross of his Dink Fair Sweaters x Bruce Barnett Sweaters. It is still a straight sweater, but with hybrid vigor. I would bet that assuming the Bruce Barnett Sweaters are really quitters, none the progenies out of the DF x BB would quit.

    In the States, Americans breed differently, just like ROY BRADY, who breeds his RADIO with a concoction of almost anything great he could lay his hands on. Besides, Frank Shy said, there's no such thing as PURE CHICKENS.

    HOW CAN I MAKE A BRUCE BARNETT SWEATER WITH HYBRID VIGOR???

    What you can do is purchase a Bruce Barnett Sweater from Blue Blade Gamefarm and purchase a Bruace Barnett Sweater from BM Bulalayaw which is an F3 of Mang Boy's matings. Then cross them, that would be a second-grandfather x a great granddaughter, the degress are far apart. Still a STRAIGHT BRUCE BARNETT, but not too tight, to affect the genes. Of course, within the propagation of the bloodline to meet the F3 no inbreeding should have occured. (Just hypothetical)

    Just sharing my thoughts.

    God bless

    Tres Mentiras
    Sorry but I have to disagree with you.

    Inbreeding does not bring out anything that was not there in the first place.

    Inbred depression may show it self but who, that has a good amount of knowledge in breeding, would put inbred depressed fowl in a derby.

    I have seen depression in fowl but game fowl end up still being game, unless you ad some dunghill in them & by inbreeding them it gets the chance to show it self. It can still show it self, no matter if they are inbred or not.

    This is why I have always said that Brood fowl are to be bred tight for just the specific traits you like & then breed them to another line within a family to get your vigor back & to show them as your pure fowl. Cross them with a different family that compliments them to get Hybrid Vigor.

    Your brood fowl are for producing ACE cocks & your Ace cocks are for showing.

    Those Sweaters are just not game, plain & simple, especially if they are quiting for many different breeders.
    Last edited by colt39; March 14th, 2008 at 02:08 AM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member johndi's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    had the same experience when fighting them during bullstag period but after 2 moultings...my gushhhh,they are super!!!(pisak 1 mata,pilay 1 paa & putol-putol ang bituka,pero pumapatay pa)

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    Thumbs up Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    I agree to all what u have observed regarding this bloodline. Even mention by Nene Abello himself and the great PERFECTIONIST Bebot 'BRAVO" Uy of Stallion Farm of Davao City..But you got to consider several INTRINSIC and EXTRINSIC factors regarding this bloodline..

  13. #13
    MYSTERIOUS
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    SONNY L started breeding RUBLE REGULAR GREY and JJ KELSO ,,,,c


    coz of dissapointment from his BB SWEATERS

  14. #14
    blastpak
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    There you go!..

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    Senior Member affirmedpoint's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Yes it's true that several Davao-based breeders have discarded their BB Sweater line. Yes I've heard many horrific stories of how this line turned tail on fights it could've easily won. And yes I've been told of how awesome they spar but sulks at even the most minor and non-life threatening wound.

    Well I do breed all of Bebot's line and his meticulous ways are carried over at my farm. However, I do vary from him by being steadfast in maintaining my BB Sweater line. Knock on wood but this line has provided me many many "W" and based on its winning percentage it appears that it's gonna stay with me for awhile. The only thing I did was purchase a trio from the man. I linebred the original trio and offsprings were then crossed with other "quality and tested" lines. The results were superb! So currently I maintain two rules when it comes to BB Sweater line. 1) maintain the same blood by not "infusing" other BB line regardless whether the fowl came from other respected breeder UNLESS I personally know the history of that fowl. 2) never fight it "pure" and always seek the hybrid vigor by crossing to other bloodlines.

    Case in point, 5 Cock Makati Coliseum Feb. 25 and Patrick Antonio, Bebot and several other breeders from Davao were with me. Bebot joined me during the limbering stage of every single fight. 1 bird was of Bebot line, 1 was my imported JJ Kelso broodcock and 3 were crosses with the BB line. Knowing how he has reservations about this line I wanted to prove before his eyes that I'm right in maintaining the line. The first was a BB x Lemon. My bird got hit first during the break but immediately delivered a lethal blow which quickly ended the fight. Right after I discovered the big wound that nearly severed the entire meaty part of his left thigh. YES that's right I said the LEFT thigh. In retrospect it's amazing how that fowl never slowed down and was able to sustain the level of power despite that type of wound. Second, it was a BB x DF or a straight sweater. Well this one won convincingly with no cut whatsover. 10 seconds and time to collect. Third was a BB x Gilmore. We were up against a menacing foe in Mayor Bunoy's famous Black Bonanzas and at the same time going for the Solo Championship. I saw that our foe had an advantage in height and age as I estimated the fowl to be at least 4 yrs old. The bird looked immaculate with healthy feathering and was moving extremely well. Through the deafening noise the birds were released and both warriors postured as if they were gonna go for it in the air. Three more steps and that was exactly what happened. The dark fowl broke superbly and was on top of our bird. In a flash the second buckle mirrored the first except this time our bird landed with his right leg completely disabled and had a gaping wound on his right side that exposed his intestines. At this time the pit was rocking as a dehado was ahead and appeared to have taken down a Champ. Down with one leg my bird persevered to continue to engage but his foe was elusive. But with a sliver of an opportunity which my bird only saw, he lunged with his one leg and delivered a blow which clearly connected as his adversary slowed down. Once the opponent became an easier target my bird got a bill hold and draged himself up then unleashed a fatal long shuffle. Isa, Dalawa and then we were crowned Solo Champ! On my way down Patrick Antonio commented to me that of all the birds I fought that last bird was the best. I proceeded to the mangagamot and discovered that my bird's intestines were practically minced to little pieces. I looked at the bird and he was still alert and I knew that I can't do anything about the inevitable death. Silently I thanked that bird for laying it all on the line. I stroked his bloody hackle for several seconds and then I bid adieu. I walked away reminiscing when that fowl was just a cockerel and how at 16 months he beat a cock in a big event in San Juan and now at 22 months beat another cock to secure us a championship. Yes folks at 22 months that bird was already a 2 x winner against cocks.

    So I would say that the BB Sweater line works for me.

    AP





    Quote Originally Posted by ROY61479
    A lot of good things has been said about this breed and true they are great in sparring. But a lot of breeders have seen this BB SWEATERS QUIT they are not game. Even Nene Abello confirmed it when we had convertion. Even Bebot Uy a respected breeder from Davao City is getting rid of this line. If this is true, why is that so? Please answer this BB sweater fanatics.

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    Senior Member kikiyo17ca's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    makiki-up lang po.

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    Senior Member blue_talon's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    that's true just like shopping we look at the name brand w/out really knowing the
    difference. sometimes we follow the fad although you can spend time watching
    your birds you won't know for sure unless to try it with the steel.
    hopefully my offsprings from boles asil 1/2 1/2 sweater cock over pure bb sweater
    yields good combo. we'll see in december.

    Quote Originally Posted by silver2dmoon
    As Caroll NeSmith had mentioned before, there are no secrets in successful breeding.
    First, you need to have excellent breeding materials.
    Second.... comes selection.

    I guess, we need to forget about the names tagged on these birds... and focus solely on the chicken. I heard Polegaff mention that his secret is his Lawn Chair. He spends countless hours watching and studying his birds. ;-)

    The tendency of most is to have a very high expectation on a bird for simple reason that it was obtained from Mr. So and So.... these breeders have satilite farms. Not all birds that they sell are theirs.

  18. #18
    Senior Member tres_mentiras's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    BRUCE BARNETT SWEATERS

    "Inbreeding does not bring out anything that was not there in the first place.

    Inbred depression may show it self but who, that has a good amount of knowledge in breeding, would put inbred depressed fowl in a derby."
    --JIM CLEM

    I have to agree with what COLT SECURITY GAMEFARM said that INBREEDING does not bring out anything that was not there in the first place. That's correct.

    It is submitted, however, that although we do not add any foreign gene with the gamefowl, what happens in INBREEDING is that we DOUBLE THE POSITIVE: quick, multiple shuffler, high breaker, etc.; but let us not forget that in the same manner of breeding, we also DOUBLE THE NEGATIVE: sulking, decreasing in size, becoming man-fighters, etc.

    In GENETICS, there is the PHENOTYPE which are the traits which could be seen by the naked eye, like red eyes, excellent shank, good station; and also the GENOTYPE which cannot be determined by just watching closely the feathered warrior, except when DNA testing is used.

    Apparently, breeders here in the Philippines do not have DNA equipment to determine the GENOTYPE of their fowls. Only in the University of the Philippines, NSRI do we have the DNA Testing. (Tijing vs. Court of Appeals) Therefore, there is no way, that by just looking at the bird, we could determine that the gameness of the bird has been affected by the inbreeding depression, especially that when it is still in our yard, we do not spar them with gaffs or knives on, otherwise, we won't have any bird to fight.

    By just looking at the fowl, however, we could see that the bird is fierce, and strong, but inside his genetic make-up, the gameness factor could have been decreased up to 50%? depending on how many inbreeding took place.

    INBREEDING THE BRUCE BARNET SWEATERS

    Mr. Clem is right when he said that when you breed a game chicken, the offsprings will still be game. It could be because, the [B]gameness gene/B] of these birds are not yet diluted.

    However, taking into consideration the BRUCE BARNETT SWEATER, which has a trait to be elusive, to avoid the knife; this is the trait, which when DOUBLED through INBREEDING will cause the offsprings to sulk. They become too brainy now, and just quit to save their lives.

    BUT I FIGHT THOSE OFFSPRINGS THAT ARE NOT INBREED, BUT STILL NO HYBRID VIGOR?

    Actually, there is a hybrid vigor, but with the diluted gene which comes from the "PURE STRAIN", it could not make fowls any better--you cannot bring out what is not there. If the fowl has a negative gameness due to inbreeding, although not apparent, it's offsprings will carry it.

    This is what happened in the case of Clipperman that when he used a "PURE BRUCE BARNETT (assumed purified through INBREEDING)", the offsprings became sulkers. The reason is that the decreased gameness in the PURE HEN, was just transmitted to the offsprings--nothing added.

    To illustrate:

    100% GAMENESS (inbreeding depression) 50% GAMENESS (Inbreeding depression to make 3/4) 25% GAMENESS. Then we cross the grandfather x granddaughter mating with 25% GAMENESS X another Sweater (not related). The result is the genes of the unrelated Sweater will be mixed with only 25% GAMENESS.

    Nothing is added in INBREEDING DEPRESSION. (But this is just hypothetical, as it is impossible to determine exactly the gene that passes to the offsprings.)

    What happens now is, garbage in, garbage out.

    Bruce Barnett, most likely knows the effects of INBREEDING DEPRESSION that is the reason why he uses the "FLIP FLOP WAY OF BREEDING" (most Alabama breeders do). Nevertheless, to avoid deterioration of the genes, he has his SWEATER-KELSOS, etc. Of course depending on the marking.

    It is admitted that this fowl is a "thinking fowl" therefore it lacks gameness, so inbreeding it too much would be detrimental to its remaining game genes.

    ROY BRADY, the breeder of RADIO subscribes to the philosophy that there is NO PURE FOWL.

    Just like what AFFIRMED POINT is doing, he is after a STRAIGHT SWEATER--NOT PURE. What matters is that your fowl should win, even if you mix your ABELLO SWEATER with a DINK SWEATER and later on destroy the genes of the ABELLO SWEATER, who cares? What is important is that you are winning.

    Although, INBREEDING is a form of breeding, which is also needed, to make the genes uniform, what I am against is INBREEDING too tight and too long which leads to INBREEDING DEPRESSION.

    I know of a breeder who is a friend of MR. SWEATER, and of the many years of breeding, not one sulked. He joins the stag derbies, yet still, not one sulked. I asked him what happened to SONNY LAGON when his stocks begin to run. He said, SONNY LAGON only gets Sweaters from BRUCE BARNETT, therefore, he is breeding too tight--that's only his theory, there could be many factors.

    Just sharing my thoughts.

    God bless.

    Tres Mentiras
    Last edited by tres_mentiras; March 14th, 2008 at 06:47 AM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member alandenverdy's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    in my experience w/ bruce sweater,they cut good and break prety well,they can kill there opponent in 2 or 3 buckles but when it comes to drag,my bruce never quit but sometimes natutulog.not like our lemons and mclean till the last breath they still peck.i think it is better to infuse 1/4 of hatch or kearny.

  20. #20
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    what do you guys expect hell all you guys breed is a good fighter to a sister of a good fighter and on and on. Man you can't not expect it to happen all you care about is a good fast cutting chicken, doubt any of you guys have ever seen a real true gamecock, the ones with broken legs and wings in the drag that get a hold of you and hit you like they were fresh. All I am saying is that if you don't have a solid breeding program you should expect them to run and what not and you can't really expect gameness out of sweaters especially in the phillipines..............

  21. #21
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Quote Originally Posted by tres_mentiras
    BRUCE BARNETT SWEATERS

    "Inbreeding does not bring out anything that was not there in the first place.

    Inbred depression may show it self but who, that has a good amount of knowledge in breeding, would put inbred depressed fowl in a derby."
    --JIM CLEM

    I have to agree with what COLT SECURITY GAMEFARM said that INBREEDING does not bring out anything that was not there in the first place. That's correct.

    It is submitted, however, that although we do not add any foreign gene with the gamefowl, what happens in INBREEDING is that we DOUBLE THE POSITIVE: quick, multiple shuffler, high breaker, etc.; but let us not forget that in the same manner of breeding, we also DOUBLE THE NEGATIVE: sulking, decreasing in size, becoming man-fighters, etc.

    In GENETICS, there is the PHENOTYPE which are the traits which could be seen by the naked eye, like red eyes, excellent shank, good station; and also the GENOTYPE which cannot be determined by just watching closely the feathered warrior, except when DNA testing is used.

    Apparently, breeders here in the Philippines do not have DNA equipment to determine the GENOTYPE of their fowls. Only in the University of the Philippines, NSRI do we have the DNA Testing. (Tijing vs. Court of Appeals) Therefore, there is no way, that by just looking at the bird, we could determine that the gameness of the bird has been affected by the inbreeding depression, especially that when it is still in our yard, we do not spar them with gaffs or knives on, otherwise, we won't have any bird to fight.

    By just looking at the fowl, however, we could see that the bird is fierce, and strong, but inside his genetic make-up, the gameness factor could have been decreased up to 50%? depending on how many inbreeding took place.

    INBREEDING THE BRUCE BARNET SWEATERS

    Mr. Clem is right when he said that when you breed a game chicken, the offsprings will still be game. It could be because, the [B]gameness gene/B] of these birds are not yet diluted.

    However, taking into consideration the BRUCE BARNETT SWEATER, which has a trait to be elusive, to avoid the knife; this is the trait, which when DOUBLED through INBREEDING will cause the offsprings to sulk. They become too brainy now, and just quit to save their lives.

    BUT I FIGHT THOSE OFFSPRINGS THAT ARE NOT INBREED, BUT STILL NO HYBRID VIGOR?

    Actually, there is a hybrid vigor, but with the diluted gene which comes from the "PURE STRAIN", it could not make fowls any better--you cannot bring out what is not there. If the fowl has a negative gameness due to inbreeding, although not apparent, it's offsprings will carry it.

    This is what happened in the case of Clipperman that when he used a "PURE BRUCE BARNETT (assumed purified through INBREEDING)", the offsprings became sulkers. The reason is that the decreased gameness in the PURE HEN, was just transmitted to the offsprings--nothing added.

    To illustrate:

    100% GAMENESS (inbreeding depression) 50% GAMENESS (Inbreeding depression to make 3/4) 25% GAMENESS. Then we cross the grandfather x granddaughter mating with 25% GAMENESS X another Sweater (not related). The result is the genes of the unrelated Sweater will be mixed with only 25% GAMENESS.

    Nothing is added in INBREEDING DEPRESSION. (But this is just hypothetical, as it is impossible to determine exactly the gene that passes to the offsprings.)

    What happens now is, garbage in, garbage out.

    Bruce Barnett, most likely knows the effects of INBREEDING DEPRESSION that is the reason why he uses the "FLIP FLOP WAY OF BREEDING" (most Alabama breeders do). Nevertheless, to avoid deterioration of the genes, he has his SWEATER-KELSOS, etc. Of course depending on the marking.

    It is admitted that this fowl is a "thinking fowl" therefore it lacks gameness, so inbreeding it too much would be detrimental to its remaining game genes.

    ROY BRADY, the breeder of RADIO subscribes to the philosophy that there is NO PURE FOWL.

    Just like what AFFIRMED POINT is doing, he is after a STRAIGHT SWEATER--NOT PURE. What matters is that your fowl should win, even if you mix your ABELLO SWEATER with a DINK SWEATER and later on destroy the genes of the ABELLO SWEATER, who cares? What is important is that you are winning.

    Although, INBREEDING is a form of breeding, which is also needed, to make the genes uniform, what I am against is INBREEDING too tight and too long which leads to INBREEDING DEPRESSION.

    I know of a breeder who is a friend of MR. SWEATER, and of the many years of breeding, not one sulked. He joins the stag derbies, yet still, not one sulked. I asked him what happened to SONNY LAGON when his stocks begin to run. He said, SONNY LAGON only gets Sweaters from BRUCE BARNETT, therefore, he is breeding too tight--that's only his theory, there could be many factors.

    Just sharing my thoughts.

    God bless.

    Tres Mentiras

    Very good post. OK, I will give you that debate. If I was to be asked what is gameness & where is it located, my first instinct would be, Gameness is in the heart. Now, with that said, Gameness is really a mental state, in my opinion.

    Yes, I think fowl could be breed so tight that gameness could be lost due to depression. But, breeding is only a small part of it. Selective breeding is where you will make your Aces or Dunghills. You could inbreed them down to nothing, with out proper selection & knowing when they have had enough. With that said, these Sweaters are too damn pretty to be bred that tight, lol.

    Like you stated & I belive this. Sweaters were bred to be elusive & it takes a bit of dunghill to get a game cock to be elusive. This is why they are not game to start with. Deep game fowl go straight in & do not care about getting cut as long as they have a chance of cutting back, win loose or draw. On the other hand,I think that you can have good elusive fowl & still be PIT GAME. They just have to be bred right, with the right blood.

    His birds may be just hitting the end of the line, as far as gameness goes. I just don't think it is from being inbred, I think it was there already & they may be getting a bit tighter & the dunghill is showing it self more often.

    So, one last thought with inbreeding, It will not bring out anything that is not already there but, with out good selection, traits can be lost.

    tres_mentiras, good talking with you. Or should I say, posting with you, lol.
    Last edited by colt39; March 14th, 2008 at 08:40 AM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member tres_mentiras's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39
    Very good post. OK, I will give you that debate. If I was to be asked what is gameness & where is it located, my first instinct would be, Gameness is in the heart. Now, with that said, Gameness is really a mental state, in my opinion.

    Yes, I think fowl could be breed so tight that gameness could be lost due to depression. But, breeding is only a small part of it. Selective breeding is where you will make your Aces or Dunghills. You could inbreed them down to nothing, with out proper selection & knowing when they have had enough. With that said, these Sweaters are too damn pretty to be bred that tight, lol.

    Like you stated & I belive this. Sweaters were bred to be elusive & it takes a bit of dunghill to get a game cock to be elusive. This is why they are not game to start with. Deep game fowl go straight in & do not care about getting cut as long as they have a chance of cutting back, win loose or draw. On the other hand,I think that you can have good elusive fowl & still be PIT GAME. They just have to be bred right, with the right blood.

    His birds may be just hitting the end of the line, as far as gameness goes. I just don't think it is from being inbred, I think it was there already & they may be getting a bit tighter & the dunghill is showing it self more often.

    So, one last thought with inbreeding, It will not bring out anything that is not already there but, with out good selection, traits can be lost.

    tres_mentiras, good talking with you. Or should I say, posting with you, lol.

    Everything you said is true, that SELECTION is the key to prevent INBREEDING DEPRESSION and also, you are right when you said that SWEATERS (GENERALLY) lack gameness, thus, breeding them too tight would lead to dunghills.

    I guess, it all depends on who is breeding them, and how they are bred.

    Thanks for exchanging your thoughts.

    God bless.

    Tres Mentiras

  23. #23
    Senior Member grey man's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    As you all know, I never liked Sweates to begin with. Good luck to all you Sweater breeders.

  24. #24
    Senior Member bajaexplor's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    We haven't had this problem with Sweaters that we got from Bruce, direct. They can fight pure if you desire, but, we cross his Sweater Hens under Giliam Hatch and Gilmore Hatch.

    Saludos,

    Baja

  25. #25
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Pure sweaters from BB is not the problem it's the one you crossed it with. U should be selective with your cross, might not be a good match. Fought a few from BB and never experienced one that quits unless you call a dead cock a quitter.

  26. #26
    MYSTERIOUS
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Quote Originally Posted by joeySinger
    Pure sweaters from BB is not the problem it's the one you crossed it with. U should be selective with your cross, might not be a good match. Fought a few from BB and never experienced one that quits unless you call a dead cock a quitter.



    5 out of 100 to left behind ....too expensive

  27. #27
    joeySinger
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS
    5 out of 100 to left behind ....too expensive


    Is that your winning %tage 5 out of 100? Wow, don't blame U if you fell that way, I would too.

  28. #28
    Senior Member WT AVALON's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Quote Originally Posted by affirmedpoint
    Yes it's true that several Davao-based breeders have discarded their BB Sweater line. Yes I've heard many horrific stories of how this line turned tail on fights it could've easily won. And yes I've been told of how awesome they spar but sulks at even the most minor and non-life threatening wound.


    Well I do breed all of Bebot's line and his meticulous ways are carried over at my farm. However, I do vary from him by being steadfast in maintaining my BB Sweater line. Knock on wood but this line has provided me many many "W" and based on its winning percentage it appears that it's gonna stay with me for awhile. The only thing I did was purchase a trio from the man. I linebred the original trio and offsprings were then crossed with other "quality and tested" lines. The results were superb! So currently I maintain two rules when it comes to BB Sweater line. 1) maintain the same blood by not "infusing" other BB line regardless whether the fowl came from other respected breeder UNLESS I personally know the history of that fowl. 2) never fight it "pure" and always seek the hybrid vigor by crossing to other bloodlines.

    Case in point, 5 Cock Makati Coliseum Feb. 25 and Patrick Antonio, Bebot and several other breeders from Davao were with me. Bebot joined me during the limbering stage of every single fight. 1 bird was of Bebot line, 1 was my imported JJ Kelso broodcock and 3 were crosses with the BB line. Knowing how he has reservations about this line I wanted to prove before his eyes that I'm right in maintaining the line. The first was a BB x Lemon. My bird got hit first during the break but immediately delivered a lethal blow which quickly ended the fight. Right after I discovered the big wound that nearly severed the entire meaty part of his left thigh. YES that's right I said the LEFT thigh. In retrospect it's amazing how that fowl never slowed down and was able to sustain the level of power despite that type of wound. Second, it was a BB x DF or a straight sweater. Well this one won convincingly with no cut whatsover. 10 seconds and time to collect. Third was a BB x Gilmore. We were up against a menacing foe in Mayor Bunoy's famous Black Bonanzas and at the same time going for the Solo Championship. I saw that our foe had an advantage in height and age as I estimated the fowl to be at least 4 yrs old. The bird looked immaculate with healthy feathering and was moving extremely well. Through the deafening noise the birds were released and both warriors postured as if they were gonna go for it in the air. Three more steps and that was exactly what happened. The dark fowl broke superbly and was on top of our bird. In a flash the second buckle mirrored the first except this time our bird landed with his right leg completely disabled and had a gaping wound on his right side that exposed his intestines. At this time the pit was rocking as a dehado was ahead and appeared to have taken down a Champ. Down with one leg my bird persevered to continue to engage but his foe was elusive. But with a sliver of an opportunity which my bird only saw, he lunged with his one leg and delivered a blow which clearly connected as his adversary slowed down. Once the opponent became an easier target my bird got a bill hold and draged himself up then unleashed a fatal long shuffle. Isa, Dalawa and then we were crowned Solo Champ! On my way down Patrick Antonio commented to me that of all the birds I fought that last bird was the best. I proceeded to the mangagamot and discovered that my bird's intestines were practically minced to little pieces. I looked at the bird and he was still alert and I knew that I can't do anything about the inevitable death. Silently I thanked that bird for laying it all on the line. I stroked his bloody hackle for several seconds and then I bid adieu. I walked away reminiscing when that fowl was just a cockerel and how at 16 months he beat a cock in a big event in San Juan and now at 22 months beat another cock to secure us a championship. Yes folks at 22 months that bird was already a 2 x winner against cocks.

    So I would say that the BB Sweater line works for me.


    AP
    AP...CONGRATULATIONS, THAT SHOW'S THAT YOU ARE A GOOD
    AND METICULOUS BREEDER...

  29. #29
    Senior Member WT AVALON's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???

    Quote Originally Posted by tres_mentiras
    Everything you said is true, that SELECTION is the key to prevent INBREEDING DEPRESSION and also, you are right when you said that SWEATERS (GENERALLY) lack gameness, thus, breeding them too tight would lead to dunghills.

    I guess, it all depends on who is breeding them, and how they are bred.

    Thanks for exchanging your thoughts.

    God bless.

    Tres Mentiras
    Tres...You are right, " It all depends on who is breeding them" What i'm doing
    is breeding the Jerry Adkins Sweater 5X derby winner (Right-Out) 10 yrs Old markings to our BB Double-Right and LORN, then cross them with our Carl Davis Roundhead, HH Moore Claret, Cardinal Kelso and our new Lemon 84,
    so far, winning a good percentage out of this mating...

    Jerry Adkins Sweater Broodcock 5X derby winner, 10 yr old...

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    Re: Bruce Barnette Sweaters QUITTERS???



    Jerry Adkins Sweater/BB Sweater Cross Broodstag...

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