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Thread: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

  1. #511
    Lemon_Baraw
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    COCKMATES: MERONG ARTICLE NAMAN SI PARENG SUPER SA THRED NI LOR:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lordwally
    commercial feeds are very expensive.is the protein cp% needed of condition stags the same required in cocks?thank you sir supermax

    SUPERMAX:

    All of us I think, condition by feel. That includes me too. If we think the muscles are a bit tight, we give a bit more fiber and grains, if lacking in punch, a bit more protein. I also think, there had been no serious scientific research conducted by any company so that they can come up with a real conditioning pellets that is an all-in-one. I think all the basis had been protein, amino acids, carbohydrates, vitamins, enhancing supplements like ginseng, co-factors like creatine, chromium picolinate, etc.

    The obvious problem is that birds don't talk so we just feed them by gut feel. Unlike athletes who can be asked how they feel given a diet designed to enhance their performance. Besides, most of us learned by reflex where we simply applied a system we heard from somebody else or had been taught in books, TV shows, etc. I also remember watching a popular sabong TV show featuring a champion cocker who had all those delicious feed and food scattered all over the table probably making a poor child green with envy because he, a human being might never had the chance to eat such. Yet the bottom line is that we don't know the exact protein content of that conditioning ration mixed by the said cocker.

    My system is very much simplified. Knowing the protein content of my basic feed ingredients like hog pre-starter pellets, starter pellets, rice, corn and oats, I make a simplified spreadsheet where I simply input the amounts and come out with a more or less ballpark figure of 14 to 16 percent CP but then I also factor in the amino acids content, striving to provide the amino acids needed during extreme exertions like methionine, glycine , tryptophan, arginine, carnitine and others.

    In the process of carbo loading as we call it, where we strive to increase carbohydrates intake in anticipation for rapid and excessive energy release during the fight, we often lower the protein intake and in this, we invariably lower the quality of amino acids required. Therefore there is a need to ameliorate or add. Besides, there is also that phenomenon of gluconeogenesis where certain amino acids are converted into glucose in the event of extreme need.

    My opinon therefore is that we should look at the diet of our birds from a more comprehensive view where we feed them with the best because they are being prepared for a battle that may cost them their lives. If we give them a regimen that will provide speed, power and stamina while at the same time give him his head so that he doesn't lose focus, then we have provided him with the best weapons. The rest is up to him and luck. Protein levels and other factors should be studied very intensely and this takes total dedication for the handler and more importantly, the owner.

    __________________
    Last edited by Lemon_Baraw; August 17th, 2008 at 12:57 PM.

  2. #512
    Senior Member caloy72's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    I will email you a system I developed and have introduced to others including some big ones in Iloilo and Bacolod. You might give particular attention to the Supermax Pointing System that I developed using my own pointing capsules. Being a researcher, I do not have qualms in going out of the traditional concepts of conditioning that is why I can hold my own against the opposition her in Iloilo. For others who are also interested, just PM me your email addresses so I can also email you the keep.
    sir supermax..my email ad is maloy0119@yahoo.com im interested in your keep..thanks

  3. #513
    Senior Member SuperMax's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Quote Originally Posted by caloy72
    sir supermax..my email ad is maloy0119@yahoo.com im interested in your keep..thanks
    Sir,

    Please check your email ad again. I sent you files but it was returned. I think something is wrong with your email ad: maloy0119@yahoo.com

  4. #514
    Member roxleez's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    The Working Man's Keep
    by
    Southern Cross


    My purpose in writing this keep is to give the working person a fighting
    chance. If you have a better keep or one that works for you and your fowl, by
    all means use it. There are lots of good keeps available, but the trick is to
    find one that suits you and your fowl. There are good chicken men in this
    sport with plenty of tough chickens who have all the time in the world to look
    after their every need. They can even afford to hire extra help and have
    facilities that the average cocker can only dream of. They have hundreds of
    cocks and stags to choose from any time of the year. What chance do you have
    with 15 cocks and 35 stags? Not much, I agree. However, that doesn't mean you
    can't enjoy your sport. Find a level of competition where you can feel
    comfortable and where, above all, you can afford to compete. This demeans
    neither you nor your fowl. Time and circumstances do change and maybe someday
    you will find yourself at Sunset with the trophy. When I was a beginner, I
    used to fight the small derbies through the year then take my aces to a big
    time pit and fight the last day 4 cock clean-up. Lots of fun.
    Before we go any further, to be successful, you must have good fowl. This
    isn't as difficult as some would have you believe. There are lots of good men
    who advertise and sell their surplus through the Internet and the journals.
    Don't try to save money here. Most often cheap prices mean cheap chickens.
    Expect to pay a good price for your fowl-it's cheaper in the long run. The
    type or breed of fowl you fight doesn't matter. Just make sure they suit you,
    that's the most important thing.
    The most a conditioner can do for a show of fowl is to deliver them to the pit
    at the peak of health with good muscle tone, improved respiration, without
    surplus fat and with some measure of sharpness. Conditioning, contrary to
    popular belief, cannot make a rooster cut nor make it hit harder. If these
    qualities were not bred into it, no conditioning method can provide it.
    Sharpness is a term that is tough to define. Sharpness is the end product of a
    reduction in feed, forced rest and sexual and nervous tension. A rooster that
    is sharp is a bundle of energy and is at his peak with heightened senses and
    robust vigor. Physical characteristics that indicate sharpness include rapid
    yet smooth movements, alertness and often rapid blinking of the eyes. A sharp
    rooster is hard to hold in your hands. Sharpness is difficult to describe, but
    you will recognize it when you feel a rooster that has reached it. Notice that
    I have carefully avoided the term "on point". On point is the ultimate in
    sharpness and few breeders are able to reach and maintain this condition in a
    full show of roosters. For our purpose, we will be very lucky to bring a show
    of "sharp" roosters to the pit.
    One point of the selection process that I cannot stress enough is health. It
    goes without saying that to be successful, you must only condition healthy
    fowl. They must be robust and vigorous, free from internal and external
    parasites before you even think about putting them in the keep. "Pre-keep"
    should be a term used to describe the condition of every stag and every cock
    on your lot, not just the ones you intend to take to the pit. Choose only
    those roosters that "climb the wire" at feeding time and are near their
    fighting weight to put into your keep.
    Feed
    If I were writing a keep for the pros, I would specify whole hard red wheat
    from within a 100 mile radius of Alberta, but I'm not. I'm writing a keep for
    the average cocker and the feed he has readily available. Which is: whole
    corn, chopped corn (sometimes called scratch), 22% laying pellets, and Racing
    Pigeon Feed. Your feed mixture for most of the keep will include equal parts
    of these four grains, 1 chopped boiled egg (minus the shell) per four cocks,
    and buttermilk to moisten the feed.
    Work
    The only handwork your cocks will receive is the "flirt". The flirt most
    closely approximates a cock's natural action while fighting. Place the rooster
    on a lightly padded bench, put both hands on the cock's back, thumbs low on
    the back. Lightly toss the bird forward while pressing down on the thumbs,
    thus causing the bird to flap his wings to regain his balance. After a few
    attempts, both you and the rooster will get the hang of it. All other work
    will be natural work in fly pens.
    Pens
    You will need a fly pen and a conditioning stall for each bird. The size of
    either is not critical. The average fly pen is about 4"x 8" with 6" or so in
    height. Use 6" or so of litter of your choice in each fly pen over a couple
    inches of sand. Your conditioning stalls can be about 2" square with a place
    to hang a cup and a way to darken them. In addition, try to have a couple of
    round pens, a couple of square pens and a couple of tie cords-all on grass for
    rotation on weekends when you are free.
    Water
    Give your chickens as much water as they will drink-always. None of this "five
    dips of water" business. A rooster will not drink more than he needs, and he's
    a better judge of his needs than you are. Period.
    Let's say the fight is on a Saturday in two weeks. Start on Saturday morning.
    Select your cocks or stags. Spar when empty. Spar this way: bill them really
    well, set them down beak to beak, when they buckle, pick them up immediately.
    Set them down 4" apart, one buckle and pick them up again. Back up 6", pit
    them one buckle again. Saw spurs, worm, delouse. If you want to weigh them for
    your own information, fine. I can tell whether a cock is fat or thin by
    feeling of him. Also, give each bird a shot of a good broad spectrum
    antibiotic. Place in fly pens with water mixed with antibiotics. That evening,
    take bird out, rub, and put in keep stall. Mix feed and put in cups. One part
    pigeon feed, one part whole corn, one part scratch and one part 22% laying
    pellets with one chopped boiled egg per four cocks. Moisten with buttermilk.
    Sprinkle one pinch of vitamins over each cup of feed. The vitamins will be
    used every day through the Thursday before fight day. Now, about amounts of
    feed. The object of a good conditioning method is to put the maximum amount of
    feed through a cock without having him gain fat. So, it's up to you to adjust
    the amounts of feed. There are just too many variables to predict with any
    certainly how much an individual cock needs. Feed cocks and water.
    Sunday: Rotate cocks from fly pens to round pens to square pens to string
    walks. Skip morning feed, but feed Sunday evening like Saturday evening.
    Monday: Try to work with your cocks approximately the same time each morning
    and afternoon. Take cocks out of keep stalls, give 15 flirts, rub and place in
    fly pens with water. Feed in litter. That afternoon, 15 flirts, feed in keep
    stalls.
    Tuesday: Same routine. 20 flirts
    Wednesday: Same routine. 25 flirts
    Friday: Same routine. 30 flirts
    Saturday: No morning work. Feed in fly pens as usual. Rotate cocks every two
    hours from round pen to square pen to tie cords on grass. Make sure every cock
    has a hen in at least one of the pens. That afternoon, spar as described, put
    in keep stalls, feed and water.
    Sunday: Same routine as Saturday, except omit sparring, 30 flirts instead.
    Monday: Same regular routine. 40 flirts
    Tuesday: Same regular routine. 30 flirts
    Wednesday: Same regular routine 25 flirts in morning. In evening, spar,
    letting cocks buckle once from 4" apart, then once from 6 feet. No work, feed
    and water as usual.
    Thursday: Same routine. 20 flirts
    Friday: Cut feed down to 2/3 regular feed in morning. No hand work. Rub
    lightly, return to keep stalls, darken stalls. Rest. Evening, take cocks out
    and let scratch for one hour. Feed regular feed dry without buttermilk. Put in
    keep stalls.
    Saturday: Fight day. Haul cocks to pit and set them out to drop out in folding
    drop pens. Keep your cockhouse dark. When you are taking a rooster out to
    heel, do it quickly, then turn off the lights again.
    Final Notes
    -It's a good idea to have a radio playing around the cockhouse during the keep
    so the cocks get adjusted to the noise. Also, invite some friends over to
    watch them spar. Let them make noise too. Besides it's more fun that way.
    -Never smoke around your cocks or let anyone else.
    -Conditioning is mainly a matter of common sense, a little logic and a little
    experience. No voodoo involved. With a few minor adjustments, this keep can be
    successful in nearly any weapon.
    In conclusion, I probably could have sold this keep and made a few bucks, but
    I chose to let the good folks at The Pit Master put it on their site in hopes
    of encouraging more beginners to get active in this sport. If you use this
    keep and like it, let The Pit Master know, and I'll send in some other
    ramblings.
    Southern Cross

  5. #515
    Lemon_Baraw
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    COCKMATES: NEW POST OF SUPER AT HIS BLOGSIGHT:

    USING SUPERMAX IN HACK FIGHTS

    August 17, 2008 by supermaxpointingsystem We have to admit that the application program we designed for SuperMax are for derbies where schedules are set and the handler/owner can estimate when to give the trio of the last dose 2 to 3 hours before the fight. During the intensive testing phase here in Iloilo we went to hack fights to test SuperMax and invariably found opponents since we were eager to see how stags with SuperMax will perform 2-3 hours after the last application. So we were always able to fight our birds at the programmed time.
    After months of sending out SuperMax to those who wanted to try them, we received numerous inquiries on what to do during hack fights so we realized that a new protocol has to be designed to make effective use of SuperMax in hack fights.
    Background Info:
    SuperMax, the name, is a contraction of superior and maximum. We mean superior speed and power, maximum oxygen/wind and stamina. We designed or formulated SuperMax to make efficient use of the feeding and the conditioning routines given to the birds by the owners and handlers. It also gives justice to the word carbo-loading because it focuses on the energy development, transport to the cells and use during the extreme exertion which is the actual fight with the knives or in naked heels. Collaterally as we develop and stock up on cellular energy, we likewise develop the oxides by concentrating on the oxides formation and not on the transporting agents like the red blood cells or hemoglobin.
    What we did was to find the best mix of supplements and tested these in as many birds as possible. Between 2002 to 2004, we have personally fought more than 50 birds using versions of the evolving product. After each fight, we did post-evaluation in terms of speed, power, stamina, wind and focus. We also tried them all- stimulants, supplements etc. We went to the extent of fighting brothers, one with our product, the other none or with popular pointing aids like nux vomica, etc. We did this with knives too. We continued the supplements that we found to be stable and get us to the desired results.
    When we found a stable mix of supplements, we tried expanding the experiments by test selling this to friends and used the income to fund further research. We got positive results that by the end of 2006, we must have sent out more than 200 sets of SuperMax. Feedbacks and repeat requests indicated that the results were encouraging. So we decided to make SuperMax accessible to wider group.
    Improving the System for Hack Fights:
    The instruction on the label of SuperMax states:
    2 Days before the Fight, after morning feed: 1 SuperMax Capsule
    1 Day before the Fight, after morning feed: 1 pair SuperMax and Oxyvit
    Day of Fight, after morning feed: 1 pair SuperMax and Oxyvit
    2-3 Hours before the Fight: Trio of Supermax, Oxyvit and Glucose Capsules
    But the feedbacks from users nationwide indicate that a more precise application program has to be designed so that SuperMax can be more effectively used in hackfights. This regimen can also be applied for derbies once you know the schedules..Here’s the modification:
    2 Days before the Fight, after morning feed: 1 SuperMax Capsule
    1 Day before the Fight, after morning feed: 1 pair SuperMax and Oxyvit
    8 Hours Before the Fight: 1 pair SuperMax and Oxyvit + 15grams pointing feed
    2-3 Hours before the Fight: Trio of Supermax, Oxyvit and Glucose capsules

  6. #516
    nensky
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    interesting info bro!

  7. #517
    Member dubliner's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    i will surely try these supermax...

  8. #518
    nensky
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    uuppppppppppppppppppppppppp

  9. #519
    nensky
    Guest

    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    up k uli...........................

  10. #520
    ilahas56
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Sir Supermax,

    Good Day to you!

    Do you have new findings on conditioning stags for this stag fihgting seasson?

  11. #521
    nensky
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    .................................

  12. #522
    Senior Member romy 3388's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TONET828
    BRO, I RECOMMEND YOU TO BUY THE BOOK & VCD OF TJT ON GAMECOCK CONDITIONING...

    CHEERS!






    WHAT EVER IT TAKES , TO WIN IS THE GAME....

  13. #523
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    up,,,,up very interesting.....

  14. #524
    Lemon_Baraw
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    KAKMATES: NEW POST ON SUPERMAX FANTICS, NGAYON LANG:

    TAGADAO'S SUPERMAX EXPERIENCE:

    Supermax Fans,

    Tagadao called me (SuperMax) up, from Davao, about 10AM this Sunday morning to excitedly report his Supermax experience. I am writing his story as best as I can recall as he was extremely excited. Tagadao's story:

    "We scored zero on the 2-stag elimination because my handler refused to use SuperMax. he claimed that during our preparation of a cock for a tupada several weeks ago as the first test to experience Supermax use, the cock dropped blue-colored droppings! So I did not insist when he said he will not use Supermax for the stag derby, thinking he will do well as he claimed he would. We also did not push thru with the tupada because of his claim of blue droppings. Our stags during the elimination were weak and did not show any signs of being in at least "good condition" not to mention "pointed condition", so the inevitable happened- we got zero."

    "I called up SuperMax to ask his opinion and he said never in the more than 1,000 sets of Supermax used had anyone complained of blue droppings! ha ha ha! He simply said that I should take care of learning to handle and point and not to give such important task to handlers. After all, he added, it's my birds, my money and my honor at stake. He finally added that in the years as consultant and as an instructor, he never taught or related to handlers. he only transferred knowledge and info to the owners. They are the ones who pay him he said and besides, handlers come and go, especially when they have learned a lot. They also have the propensity to brag and be arrogant when they have learned a few things about conditioning, pointing and have won a few derbies."

    "So I did not anymore tell Supermax that I have plans to proceed to the finals in case of a break but will follow his advice to point the stags myself. The opportunity came when a friend offered his entry of 1W 1L. I pointed the stags and fought yesterday."

    "First fight was spectacular. We won fast and had few scratches. Our opponent was a big time who had perfect scores on elimination day. Next fight was the same and almost the same conditions- still spectacular and still few scratches. Again another bigtime cocker got splattered, he he."

    "We lost our last fight. We were hit on the side (kili-kili) on the second fly but our stag fought bravely for just a little under 4 minutes. I really was amazed because I never had a stag fight that long when mortally hit".

    "I can now say with conviction that Supermax was the key factor in our incursions in the finals. Despite in their weak conditons, the 3 stags I selected for the finals were able to recover with the SuperMax Pointing System, using all the supplements recommended therein. I was very impressed on the reactions of the stags. When highly pointed, they were cool but very alert. All the manifestations of a pointed bird were there. In fact some would say these are "senyales". These were the wagging of tail (nagwawalis ng pera), preening and oiling the feathers and head knocking. I was really elated at the sight of my birds in the pit. Despite being so alert and aggressive during the teasing and preparation time, they were cool when released but once the fights started, they were devastatingly fast and powerful"

    "I think I can now confidently say that I can point like a pro with Supermax!"

  15. #525
    Member dubliner's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    up,...up,..... supermax!!!

  16. #526
    Junior Member ROLLI's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    o yung mga kagagaling lang jan sa panalo gamit ang Supermax kwento na agad habang mainit pa pagkakapanalo nyo . . . sarap basahin pag nakakahagip ang mga dehado lalo na pag tres, onse o doblado digahan aysya kalalaking butlig ng pawis ng mga nadale hehehe, la lang senya na kayo dito lang ako bumabawi tagal pa kasi uwi ko.

    up lang natin . . . .

  17. #527
    Member moshi_moshi's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    email po ito sa akin ni SuperMax kaninang tanghali;

    Hi Mosh,

    Tulong muna please!! Somebody tried to access my Sabong account and logged in at least 5 times. Now I am blocked and cannot access my account. Even the new admin provided password cannot still open my account. Maybe somebody is trying to block my access, or maybe it's just a glitch. But kindly post this info that IP address: 203.177.74.138 is responsible.

    May I also ask those wanting to PM me to send it directly to my email ad: super08max@yahoo.com. Please post this in all my threads!

    Thanks for the favor!
    SuperMax



    'eto na mga kasabong ang di maganda sa mga taong di nasisiyahan sa mga ibinabahagi ni SuperMax




  18. #528
    Member Eaglecross's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Ako rin please e-mail to me at eaglecross2006@yahoo.com thanks

  19. #529
    Senior Member romy 3388's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelso56
    DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY OR WHERE I CAN FIND TIPS ON HOW TO CONDITION YOUR COCK IN A 3 Week PERIOD FOR EXAMPLE WHAT TO DO ?? WHAT TYPES OF VITAMINS AND HOW TO REST THEM ??A SAP
    Email me At benjila56@gmail.com or IF YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS I REALLY APPRECIATE THEM


    good luck to your conditioning ...

  20. #530
    Member moshi_moshi's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    up up up.........

  21. #531
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    I will email you a system I developed and have introduced to others including some big ones in Iloilo and Bacolod. You might give particular attention to the Supermax Pointing System that I developed using my own pointing capsules. Being a researcher, I do not have qualms in going out of the traditional concepts of conditioning that is why I can hold my own against the opposition her in Iloilo. For others who are also interested, just PM me your email addresses so I can also email you the keep.

    Sir Supermax,
    Very much interested po sa system niu, can you please send it to my email ... nlasuelo@yahoo.com ....thank you very much sir and i'm looking forward of using your product..

  22. #532
    Senior Member qyammy's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    I will email you a system I developed and have introduced to others including some big ones in Iloilo and Bacolod. You might give particular attention to the Supermax Pointing System that I developed using my own pointing capsules. Being a researcher, I do not have qualms in going out of the traditional concepts of conditioning that is why I can hold my own against the opposition her in Iloilo. For others who are also interested, just PM me your email addresses so I can also email you the keep.
    I am also interested sir,

    qyam.mychaels@yahoo.com.ph

    Thanks in advance

  23. #533
    Senior Member GG Crasher's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    just up & up....gud luck to all supermax lovers for all incoming fights with supermax pointing system..

  24. #534
    Member samilyn's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    I will email you a system I developed and have introduced to others including some big ones in Iloilo and Bacolod. You might give particular attention to the Supermax Pointing System that I developed using my own pointing capsules. Being a researcher, I do not have qualms in going out of the traditional concepts of conditioning that is why I can hold my own against the opposition her in Iloilo. For others who are also interested, just PM me your email addresses so I can also email you the keep.
    Sir,can i join the group for this one,i'm also interested in this kind of conditioning and my deep appreciation for your kind and great info,,,,my email add,,,,,
    mercury_sable117891@yahoo.com
    advance thanks to you,,,,

  25. #535
    Member redentorm's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    I will email you a system I developed and have introduced to others including some big ones in Iloilo and Bacolod. You might give particular attention to the Supermax Pointing System that I developed using my own pointing capsules. Being a researcher, I do not have qualms in going out of the traditional concepts of conditioning that is why I can hold my own against the opposition her in Iloilo. For others who are also interested, just PM me your email addresses so I can also email you the keep.
    Sir supermax, can you pls e-mail me too regarding your system. thank you very much sir! and where can i acquire some of your pointing capsule. redentorm@yahoo.com

  26. #536
    Member phogak's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    buhayin ko lng natin

  27. #537
    Member GADO's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    a very informative thread.let's bring it up...

  28. #538
    alvin300
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    in conditioning fighting cock first you must identify the cocks your using the bloodlines particulary . age, the fighting style you want. I been conditioning fowl in the basis of my analysis. the advice I can give you is just stay natural as possible. If you have any question I will help you the best way I could just email me at alvin_gerimong@hotmail.com for sure we can understand each other.

  29. #539
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    to supermax:

    sir can you extend to me your conditioning technique? @ raine_terc@yahoo.com.
    thanks a lot!

  30. #540
    Member el_diablo's Avatar
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    Re: Conditioning Before The Fight!!

    sir supermax..........send mo naman sakin quite new in this sport!

    harlowsin074@yahoo.com

    tnx in advance!

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    Replies: 134
    Last Post: July 13th, 2011, 06:30 PM
  2. Conditioning Before The Fight!!
    By Kelso56 in forum Chicken Talk
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: March 24th, 2008, 11:33 AM
  3. Conditioning Before The Fight!!
    By Kelso56 in forum Chicken Talk
    Replies: 0
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  4. issue on conditioning feeds on the day of the fight
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    Replies: 12
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