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Thread: outbreeding depression...

  
  1. #241
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Marcusrn..yes it is about the difference of the meaning of pure, I agree..The example of the homozygous genes being same..was to demostrate that very concept..A lab may have a very different opinion of what is pure, than a practical performance breeder. I love to see all my cocks look and act alike that are of a certain strain. I also enjoy variety, so now with it being illegal I can maintain some of the old strains and colors, that I might have not tolerated when I was competing. Still, I hope I can improve them or atleast use some of those old genes I might have not tried. That is my goal now and it's for my pleasure, no one elses. Good luck to you in your quest.

  2. #242
    Senior Member GamefowlService's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    sir colt39,

    My replies are in blue...this is best discuss over a bottle of beer...


    I allways called them straight bred fowl & will go back to that.

    I am just trying to see what other people consider pure. Then how they can say bro/sis is the only way when that is not at all true.

    In genetics, Bro/Sis is the fastest way to increase inbreeding coefficient or animals which are nearly identical to each other in genotype due to long inbreeding. Mating of Bro-Sis pairs for 20 generations will result in lines that are 98% Genetically Identical. Search for Inbred Strains.

    Example,

    If I start with bro/sis at .25 & someone tells me that I have to go 4 generations to be pure, locked or what ever, I would like to know where they came up with that fact. Also, if it is fact, then it is also fact that I could do the same with .125 in 8 generations. Am I right?

    You can lock the genes in just 1 or 2, or 3 or 4 generations or more. But again this depend on what percentage of genes you wanted your stock locked...eg 25%, 37.5%, 50%, 98% (20 generations required) or at 100%. Locking the genes means wherever you cross you are producing constant percentage of identical genes...eg 25%, 37.5%, 50%, 90% or 100%...This requires tedious calculations in the breeding program.

    Then, you have to ask your self, pure for what? Then, ask your self, if it really does take 4 years, is it possible to do it in 3 years if you are good at selecting.

    Alleles that are homozygous are pure are they not? They could pair in one generation with the right selection could they not?

    Alleles that are the same are homozygous, but I'm not sure if they can be defined pure.

    You say pure is 100%. Do you say that all the alleles would have to be homozygous then? And if so, I will have fowl in a couple years that are better because yours can not improve.

    Yes 100% is Pure...No Mixture, No Taint...But I do not intend to breed up to this high level of genotype.
    Last edited by GamefowlService; March 28th, 2009 at 05:52 AM.

  3. #243
    Senior Member VMT^Carmen's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusrn
    if you turn back the clock on the parent marcoses to the same age as bongbong and imee, will you be able to tell the difference between the son and father, or the daughter to the mom ? you see, they are still all marcoses but the genetic commonality is not that close. commonalities such as 2 legs, 2 wings, beak and 4 toes should not be enough basis for comparison, far from it, when talking about genetic purity. if the above are the criteria, one may mistake a turkey for a chicken or a pigeon. but of course i assumed people will think the way i was thinking that the commonality of the parents to the generation in question and the progeny of the generation in question is such that you can barely or cannot tell the difference between them (in looks and behavior), except for their differing ages of course. i was thinking about a group of chickens that are like 'peas in a pod' and the parents and descendants can be mistaken to belong to the same pod if they are the same age as the generation considered. i was trying to clarify if the posters are actually thinking the same meaning for the word under debate, 'pure'.
    .
    Yes, and the unique morality of man forbids inbreeding and linebreding. They are grouped together as Kingdom down to Species due to their similarities than their differences. I am not agaisnt your flow of thought but just on the parallel side of things. In our example of the Marcoses, the whole bunch share related genetic information but also differs in a lot of ways(some variations are minute and some are infinite). The hetero features are of course the result of breeding away from original ancestors(the grandmom wasn't mated to his Bong2x or Ferdinand to Irene).

    We are all peas in a pod, I suppose but we differ in other ways. some greener, some rounder..and some floats in cold water(could be outbreeding depression).

  4. #244
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Are genes really locked just because you inbreed? Sure you have a higher Coefficient of Inbreeding, this just measures how inbred they are, not how related they are to each other. The Coefficient of Relationship would give you a measure of how related those inbred individuals are, but it is just as tidious a mathmatical chore as figuring the (F). And even more work in the practical sense. Each mating would have to be a single mating or trap nesting, it couldn't be done in mult-mated pens. No getting off easy saying they are all the same. You have to know each individual's parentage. With this formula you could calculate how related they are to each other. Inbreeding doesn't necessarly improve performance, most cases it lowers it, but gives you the genetic building material that will provide you with lines that can be enhanced by hybrid vigour. If they historically nick you have a better chance of repeating the success.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; March 28th, 2009 at 07:55 AM.

  5. #245
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    This will be my last post for awhile many of you will probably be glad. I wanted to say this while it was fresh on my mind. We have all heard how the Sweaters were 3/4 kelso x1/4 hatch, mathmatically speaking but there is more to the story some of the offspring didn't come peacombed, light red, and yellow legs, some came straight combed, dark red, and white legged. Now mathmatically speaking they were the same, genetically not. One gentlemen bred towards the one side and another bred to the other. Was his any less Sweaters? Just an example to show how mathmatical %'s are practically meanless in genetics.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; March 28th, 2009 at 08:17 AM.

  6. #246
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    marcus, bravo, sounds like commsense to me. Gamefowl: you can call them pure when they breed true to type, in this process, b/s the real breeders say they should show first sighs at about 4 generation, but at 6 generation they will be breeding very close to true to type. This can vary 1 or 2 years. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE A 100% COEFFICIENCY to be pure. It is a guideline, so you can caulate it and controll you inbreeding. J&M you knew this all the time right. I have ONE pen my rr/lo, they are my experimental pen, they are in the high 80s, my other pens range from 50 to 70. J&M how can this possibly be done. You can,t improve, gamefowl service, if you go to a field trial contest for only English Pointers, the winner will be selected for his PERFORMANCE. They all are showing the same breed, so the winner, must have improved over the other dogs of the same breed. See why pure champions are so valuable, they geneticaly improved and they have LOCKED genes. Now if I am not mistaken the geneticst call this CHANGE a mutation. But that can,t be, because Jim says it takes 100 of yars for something to mutate. I assure you,my fowl are better today than the day i received them. It is done through selection. When my rr/lo start to show ID, I will stop right there, if they make it a couple more years, according to the geneticst, you could take a skin graft and it would take on another.Gamefowlservices,if we should ever meet, I would like to buy you a beer, if they can,t understand it the way you stated, SO BE IT. BREED LIKE YOU WANT. I PREFER TO BREED LIKE THE REAL BREEDERS. Mike would you like a couple numers to call and tell these breeder they haven,t improved their families. I guess not, you never did call the DNA lab. Mike are you so dense, you can,t understand that if all sweaters do not perform the same, THEY ARE NOT BREED THE SAME, hell man I know 3 breeders in 10 mile of me and none of them have the same sweaters. I sold a big name breeder a 1/2-1/2 kelso stag for 50.00 and stood right beside him and watched him sell it to a man from Cal . as a pure sweater, for 1000.00. Mabey this could be one reason they all are not alike. Breed a Boxer from Texas to a Boxer in China and you will get what, offsprings that are still true to type. PURE

  7. #247
    Senior Member GamefowlService's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett
    This will be my last post for awhile many of you will probably be glad. I wanted to say this while it was fresh on my mind. We have all heard how the Sweaters were 3/4 kelso x1/4 hatch, mathmatically speaking but there is more to the story some of the offspring didn't come peacombed, light red, and yellow legs, some came straight combed, dark red, and white legged. Now mathmatically speaking they were the same, genetically not. One gentlemen bred towards the one side and another bred to the other. Was his any less Sweaters? Just an example to show how mathmatical %'s are practically meanless in genetics.
    I think to answer that question you need to read the "Introduction to Genetics" as your Question is explained well in that topic. When you talk of genes there are 2 types - the genotype and the phenotype. Then upon reading about those start reading about Inbreeding...What really brought breeders to inbreed and what is their objective in Inbreeding. You will learn that mathemathical % are very meaningful in Genetics. If they are not meaningful Genetic Engineering as well as study about genes and DNA would have been a waste of time.

    Now as to why there are different results? It doesn't mean different results have different mathematical %. There are two types of Alleles, one is dominant and the other is recessive. Those that you can see are results of the dominant alleles, the recessive alleles aren't seen but does not mean not in the genes. they can reoccur in the next generation or so.

  8. #248
    Senior Member marcusrn's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by VMT^Carmen
    Yes, and the unique morality of man forbids inbreeding and linebreding. They are grouped together as Kingdom down to Species due to their similarities than their differences. I am not agaisnt your flow of thought but just on the parallel side of things. In our example of the Marcoses, the whole bunch share related genetic information but also differs in a lot of ways(some variations are minute and some are infinite). The hetero features are of course the result of breeding away from original ancestors(the grandmom wasn't mated to his Bong2x or Ferdinand to Irene).

    We are all peas in a pod, I suppose but we differ in other ways. some greener, some rounder..and some floats in cold water(could be outbreeding depression).
    let's leave it at that, bud. we use the phrase 'like peas in a pod' a little bit different from where you are, i guess.

    let the debate continue then, gentlemen........

  9. #249
    Senior Member GamefowlService's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    to continue the above...

    that is why selection is very important as to what traits do you want to keep...do you want the peacomb or the straight comb? again this doesn't mean keeping all peacombs will no longer produce straight combs...you have to cull the straight comb when they reappear in the next generation because it is the trait that you do not like. You want uniformity in traits of what you produced and that's where inbreeding comes in. The higher the percentage of the homozygosity the higher the chance to reproduce traits you like.

  10. #250
    Senior Member marcusrn's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett
    Marcusrn..yes it is about the difference of the meaning of pure, I agree..The example of the homozygous genes being same..was to demostrate that very concept..A lab may have a very different opinion of what is pure, than a practical performance breeder. I love to see all my cocks look and act alike that are of a certain strain. I also enjoy variety, so now with it being illegal I can maintain some of the old strains and colors, that I might have not tolerated when I was competing. Still, I hope I can improve them or atleast use some of those old genes I might have not tried. That is my goal now and it's for my pleasure, no one elses. Good luck to you in your quest.
    thanks to your wishing me luck, mike. i wish you the same. i like your 2nd to the last sentence by the way.

  11. #251
    Senior Member GamefowlService's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by RayBoles
    Gamefowlservices,if we should ever meet, I would like to buy you a beer, if they can,t understand it the way you stated, SO BE IT. BREED LIKE YOU WANT. I PREFER TO BREED LIKE THE REAL BREEDERS.
    sure sir Ray Boles, maybe a bottle or two won't enough to have a good sharing of ideas about breeding...


    cheers!

  12. #252
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Marcusrn and gamefowlsevices, two men with comprehension, with a touch of comonsense. I will gladly try to answer any question you have for me. After some of your last post ,I may have to ask you some. Like GFS stated ,read some books ,do some research, get some knowledge of the subject, then when a question is asked or a statement is made, the person doing so doesn,t have to go into every little detail for you to understand. It,s called READING BETWEEN THE LINES. Yes I can show pic of my old sweaters with white legs. I got so tired of people telling me that sweaters did not have white legs that I breed away from them. rather than argue. Some of my customers still get one ocasionaly. Before someone post, How can you call them pure if they throw two leg colors. Since the origional threw both colors, you are still breeding true to type,
    Last edited by RayBoles; March 28th, 2009 at 10:31 AM.

  13. #253
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    I don't have to read every post now... As sir Jim said, stuff is going around and around...

    Sir Jim a lot of people are stuck up with the word PURE that's why I suggest you drop using it for your fowls, just call them BT3 (breeds true to type) so no one will argue with yah about it... As you said, it the end that's what matters most is that you are happy and the ones that got them from you...

    A lot of stuff is taken out of context from the post, used, twisted and abused...

    Chris
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  14. #254
    Member nicogamefarm's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    just wondering what really matters in cockfinghting ?????

    for me to win in a farelly way
    and generate money into this habby as a way to maintain my hobby and if possible to have extra income for my family.


    so to have this i would be open minded to all ideas that would make my gamefowl more competative (good characteristics) that at list will give more chancess to win.

    we should be teachechable for new ideas .

    but always think that the only certain is uncertainty ,
    there are no such thing as perfect principles in breeding specially in gamefowl.
    maybe what works for me will not work for you.
    Last edited by nicogamefarm; March 28th, 2009 at 02:14 PM.

  15. #255
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by cnucum
    I don't have to read every post now... As sir Jim said, stuff is going around and around...

    Sir Jim a lot of people are stuck up with the word PURE that's why I suggest you drop using it for your fowls, just call them BT3 (breeds true to type) so no one will argue with yah about it... As you said, it the end that's what matters most is that you are happy and the ones that got them from you...

    A lot of stuff is taken out of context from the post, used, twisted and abused...

    Chris
    I am not calling them pure, they are now, lol.

    I just asked what they call pure & define it.

    GamefowlService, a bottle of beer would be good.

    As far as bro/sis being the fastest way to increase inbreeding coefficient, it is not the fastest way. It is ONE of the fastest ways. Take a look at the chart.

    http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570144.html

    This is what I get out of it.

    Self fertilisation
    1/2

    Full sibs, Parent-child, Double first cousins (first degree)
    1/4

    Half sibs, Grandparent-grandchild, Uncle-niece, Double first cousins
    1/8

    First cousins
    1/16

    First cousins (once removed)
    1/32

    Second cousins
    1/64

    Second cousins (once removed)
    1/128

    Third cousins
    1/256


    Ray, what I said is, I called a few hatchery's that hatch out 100's of 1000's of chicks a week & none of them had seen a Mutation. So, if you want to quote me, just get it right & quit taking my statements out of context.

    Who would want to ask you a question when you have a different answer every other post.

    Also, why don't you tell your guy's in PI to get some of them Sweaters ready & prove the statement about being a real breeder.

    YOU GOT THE TALKING DONE!!!

  16. #256
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39
    I am not calling them pure, they are now, lol.
    Well then good, so let's get things this way...

    I want some of those "Breeds True To Type" Jim Clem Roundheads! (Kinda long but it sounds good...) Has anyone have any objections or arguments about this statement? Unless someone says now that there is no such thing as a "Breeds True to Type" anything...

    Chris

    Sir Jim, one of the boles/gilmore pullet is now laying... Got her setup with her dad...
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  17. #257
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Gamefowlservice, maybe two beers, lol.

    Just wanted to respond to this statement,

    You can lock the genes in just 1 or 2, or 3 or 4 generations or more. But again this depend on what percentage of genes you wanted your stock locked...eg 25%, 37.5%, 50%, 98% (20 generations required) or at 100%. Locking the genes means wherever you cross you are producing constant percentage of identical genes...eg 25%, 37.5%, 50%, 90% or 100%...This requires tedious calculations in the breeding program.

    I like you would not want to get close to 100%.

    The parents in any generation always contribute 50% of their genes to their offspring, so, you could expect that 25% will come from each grandparent, 12.5% from each great-grandparent, and so on. This would be starting out with sibs out of a cross.

    So, in the way I set the family by breeding the linebred fowl, the dad was dad, gradparent & great grandparent all in one. So, is it safe to say that the dad contributed 87.5% of his genes in a scence, in his 50%. So, when he was mated to his Nieces, right out of his full, linebred sisters, would I be already on the road to homozygous fowl, even before I start with double first cousins.

    Will I get there just as fast or maybe even faster? If I start with fowl that already have identical genes, will I get there faster than fowl that are starting out as a cross then bred bro/sis?

    Give me some numbers to go with your responce please.
    Last edited by colt39; March 28th, 2009 at 03:11 PM.

  18. #258
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by cnucum
    Well then good, so let's get things this way...

    I want some of those "Breeds True To Type" Jim Clem Roundheads! (Kinda long but it sounds good...) Has anyone have any objections or arguments about this statement? Unless someone says now that there is no such thing as a "Breeds True to Type" anything...

    Chris

    Sir Jim, one of the boles/gilmore pullet is now laying... Got her setup with her dad...
    Good, what are you breeding her to?

    Back before I got arrested, lol, we won a very high % with the 1/2 & 1/2 pullets bred back. I think I liked them better than them bred out of the 1/2 & 1/2 on the cock side. They seemed to hit right inbetween the 1/2 & 1/4 grades as far as style.

    I will get you some of them BT3 Roundheads this fall. Gift for my God child.

  19. #259
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39
    Good, what are you breeding her to?

    Back before I got arrested, lol, we won a very high % with the 1/2 & 1/2 pullets bred back. I think I liked them better than them bred out of the 1/2 & 1/2 on the cock side. They seemed to hit right inbetween the 1/2 & 1/4 grades as far as style.

    I will get you some of them BT3 Roundheads this fall. Gift for my God child.
    Sir Jim, just breeding her back to her dad (boles) now since it's still off season... To be used to make some 5/8 boles 3/8 gilmore in near future... But come breeding season I will be putting the 1/2 boles pullets to a very fine White Hatch BC...

    lol! BT3 JC RH sounds good to me... Wow he ain't born yet and already he'll have excellent fowls to breed! Now that's starting really early lol! BTW, my wife is due this April 4th...

    Thanks,

    Chris
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  20. #260
    Moderator cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Something to help us with back crossing / line breeding:



    Chris
    Aseel d Past, Present & Future - M.Romulo

  21. #261
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    I must admit my lack of knowledge on the computer, I lack the know how to cut and paste a link to this thread. Maybe someone can post it, but please read it anyway. I don't recommend breeding mongels, or mongel gamefowl, just read it in it's entireity.
    hhtp://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2002/march2002/News010302/thehealth.htm
    Last edited by Mike Everett; March 29th, 2009 at 12:41 AM.

  22. #262
    Senior Member GamefowlService's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39
    So, in the way I set the family by breeding the linebred fowl, the dad was dad, gradparent & great grandparent all in one. So, is it safe to say that the dad contributed 87.5% of his genes in a scence, in his 50%. So, when he was mated to his Nieces, right out of his full, linebred sisters, would I be already on the road to homozygous fowl, even before I start with double first cousins.

    Will I get there just as fast or maybe even faster? If I start with fowl that already have identical genes, will I get there faster than fowl that are starting out as a cross then bred bro/sis?

    Give me some numbers to go with your responce please.
    OK sir colt39,

    The closer the Relationship of the Inbred fowls Inbreeding Coefficient (IC or F) Increases. Mating the Inbred Fowl with Higher IC with the same inbred fowl but of farther relationship will Decrease your Inbreeding Coefficient. So breeding your Inbred Fowl to Niece and Breeding with double first cousins is slower than mating full siblings. I can give you the value later.

    Here's Chart of a Daughter to Father Mating for 10 Generations. This means the Daughter is bred back to the Father and produced a daughter which then bred back again to the father and so on for 10 gens.

    http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL129.../359685954.jpg

    From the Chart Octagon is a progeny of Antigone and Antigone's Father. If Octagon is bred back to Antigone's Father which is her Father you will result in a 43.75% Inbreeding Coefficient in the 4th Generation. Now notice how the Inbreeding Coefficient Thins Out on the 8th, 9th and 10th Generation...

    That is far different from the Bro-Sis Mating because in its 4th Generation you already got 59.4% IC and 10th Generation at least 86% IC.

    Again looking at the Chart...the 8th, 9th, 10th and maybe 11th, 12th, have very very close Inbreeding Coefficient and maybe considered semi-locked. If the siblings will still perform, you can breed the 7th to 10th generation daughters back to their Father and produce very close percentage of Inbreeding Coefficient.

  23. #263
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Jim please sene me some phone unmbers to the hatcheries, I would like to know the qualifications of the people who are handling the chicks. Would they actually know a mutation if it were in their ear. I said the men who saw mutations, were the men who breed the chickens, that produced the chickens, whose eggs went to the hatchery. Now Jim, wouldn,t you think their job would be not to pass on any fowl that would produce bad mutations. Jim just what is the ID of your pure fowl. ANSWER THIS QUESTION IF YOU NEVER ANSWER ANOTHER. DOES MY PEN rr/lo WHICH HAS THE HIGHEST ID OF ANY PEN, WHEN BREED BACK TO ANYONE OF MY OTHER PENS PRODUCE THE SAME ID.

  24. #264
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by RayBoles
    Jim please sene me some phone unmbers to the hatcheries, I would like to know the qualifications of the people who are handling the chicks. Would they actually know a mutation if it were in their ear. I said the men who saw mutations, were the men who breed the chickens, that produced the chickens, whose eggs went to the hatchery. Now Jim, wouldn,t you think their job would be not to pass on any fowl that would produce bad mutations. Jim just what is the ID of your pure fowl. ANSWER THIS QUESTION IF YOU NEVER ANSWER ANOTHER. DOES MY PEN rr/lo WHICH HAS THE HIGHEST ID OF ANY PEN, WHEN BREED BACK TO ANYONE OF MY OTHER PENS PRODUCE THE SAME ID.
    Ray, I don't know because I don't have the program. I know by the chart I provided that Double first cousins START EXACTLY THE SAME AS BRO/SIS. Why is that so hard for you to admit, lol. LOOK AT THE CHART. The chart is wrong or they start out at the same .25 as bro/sis.

    That is for fowl with no inbreeding. Mine started with inbreeding so if you would like to know figure it out. Yours, started as a cross.

    So, say what you want but atleast tell me you can read because I did a lot of reserch & the chart is acurate.

    So, you can say all you want to that bro/sis is faster, better or what ever but you are very wrong.

    Is it so hard for you to admit you are wrong or to admit that there are others that know how to breed fowl as well.

  25. #265
    Senior Member GamefowlService's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39
    Ray, I don't know because I don't have the program. I know by the chart I provided that Double first cousins START EXACTLY THE SAME AS BRO/SIS. Why is that so hard for you to admit, lol. LOOK AT THE CHART. The chart is wrong or they start out at the same .25 as bro/sis.
    sir colt39 it is true that the beginning is a non related pair...then their daughter is bred back to father and produced a daughter then that daughter is again bred back to father for 10 generations...You can use FSpeed to calculate that.

    Am I correct that you started with 3 females that you line bred back to their great grandfather?

    as per my understanding is like this GGF x Hen 1 produced Grand father. Then Grand Father x Hen 2 produced Father. Then Father x Hen 3 produced the 3 female pullets that you then bred back to the GGF...

    the 3 hens used to mate with GGF, GF and F are not related...

    please verify so I can calculate...
    Last edited by GamefowlService; March 29th, 2009 at 03:05 AM.

  26. #266
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by GamefowlService
    sir colt39 it is true that the beginning is a non related pair...then their daughter is bred back to father and produced a daughter then that daughter is again bred back to father for 10 generations...You can use FSpeed to calculate that.

    Am I correct that you started with 3 females that you line bred back to their great grandfather?

    as per my understanding is like this GGF x Hen 1 produced Grand father. Then Grand Father x Hen 2 produced Father. Then Father x Hen 3 produced the 3 female pullets that you then bred back to the GGF...

    the 3 hens used to mate with GGF, GF and F are not related...

    please verify so I can calculate...
    I linebred back to a cock to 3 generations. Then took the 3rd generation pullets & bred them to a non-related GG cock.

    Then took the f1s from that & bred them to the 3rd generation linebred pullets full brother. Their full uncle.

    Where would the uncle niece f1s be at?

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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    I then took a full brother to GG cock & bred him to his Niece's as well.

    I took the f1s from this mateing & bred them to the f1s from the 3rd generation linbred cock over his niece's.

    Cousins from that point on that start out higher than .25.

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    Re: outbreeding depression...


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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by GamefowlService
    sir colt39

    Am I correct that you started with 3 females that you line bred back to their great grandfather?

    as per my understanding is like this GGF x Hen 1 produced Grand father. Then Grand Father x Hen 2 produced Father. Then Father x Hen 3 produced the 3 female pullets that you then bred back to the GGF...

    the 3 hens used to mate with GGF, GF and F are not related...

    please verify so I can calculate...
    so now my above statement is correct that 3 generations is their Great Grand Father. then the 3 pullets were bred to a non-related broodcock. then the brother of the non-related cock were bred back to his niece...what is the Inbreeding Coefficient of the F1's?

    lemme calculate...

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    Re: outbreeding depression...

    Quote Originally Posted by GamefowlService
    so now my above statement is correct that 3 generations is their Great Grand Father. then the 3 pullets were bred to a non-related broodcock. then the brother of the non-related cock were bred back to his niece...what is the Inbreeding Coefficient of the F1's?

    lemme calculate...
    Yes, he is their dad, grand father & great grandfather all in one.

    Thank you,

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