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Thread: Soaked Oats

  
  1. #91
    CyberFriends gamecock96's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    for you, not for me... I also don't feed rotten feed with maggots crawling in it, you can if you want to
    Sour oats does not have Maggots. If just in case somebody tries it and it develops maggots, that means that fly's got in it. That is not what you want to accomplish here.

  2. #92
    Senior Member lansford101's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    the biggest thing soaked oats benafits a rooster for is moisture its like eating mush and fruits for beakfast to us it puts good moisture in us and good carbs and good fiber so i dont know if there more sour are they better for your fowl but they shure do like them better when they are sour witch is weird i think its the smell they like the most like how dogs love to get in to stink stuff i think chickens like it two any ways that my take on sour oats so not nessasrly are the better for your fowl when they ferment more but its still better to feed them when your birds need good carbs fiber an moisture

  3. #93
    Senior Member blackdeath's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    I'll not get into the tall weeds of microbiology here because they can get very tall. But, we want to keep the beneficial bacteria in greater numbers in our fowl than the other type for reasons that are beneficial to their health.
    That is the express purpose of probiotics.

    Bacteria do eat other bacteria. We want the good bacteria to colonize and keep the bad bacteria that causes health deterioration to a minimum. Bacteria can and do macrophage each other. They do so by using mechanisms such as phagocytosis and endocytosis. Enuff of that and the big words.

    Microbiology as is all sciences are forever on going and research is currently being done to see if some good bacteria can be used to kill bacteria that cause diseases in humans and livestock to a greater benefit than they already are. Some strains of bacteria are being purposely breed for that specific purpose.

    I have and still do feed oats that are so bacteria riddled that you can almost see the little buggers swimming in the water with the naked eye... no need for a microscope. The oats are literally teaming with bacteria and I have not had a single instance of any bad health repercussion from feeding them.

    They stink to high heaven, but that is the only drawback to them.


    .
    Last edited by blackdeath; July 1st, 2011 at 01:27 AM.

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  5. #94
    Moderator Falkor's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Similar to the good bacteria in yogurt.......this is why people let the oats ferment. If not allowed to ferment, then you are just feeding wet oats.

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  7. #95
    Moderator Falkor's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    I'm definitely no authority on the subject, just pointing out the reasoning behind using soaked oats. I've not ever tried soaked oats, but may try this year just for kicks. So if a guy doesn't let the oats ferment a bit, then what is the purpose of soaking them? Why not feed them dry with a cup of water? Not trying to be smart, just an honest question.

    Jim

  8. #96
    Member Reds & Greys's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    The reason you soak the oats is to soften them up. They are to hard dry and have sharp points chickens really dont like them dry.

  9. #97
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    I'd bet that probably 90% of the people who ferment their oats have fowl with diarrhea problems from time to time....
    As I pointed out earlier "The Sage" Mike Strecker pointed out that an Ohio university did a study on soaking and fermenting oats and found that the benefit did not justify the trouble. Now I could change my mind if anyone could point to an actual scientific study showing that these supposed bacteria did anything beneficial. short of that I'll stick to feeding "wet oats"
    Try reading a paper entiled "Fermented feed for Organic Layers" by R.M. Engburg

  10. #98
    Moderator Falkor's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Sorry pops, I'm being lazy and didn't look back through the old posts, however once you mentioned it I do recall you saying why you soak them. Softening the hull does make sense to me. I believe I may try both methods separately and see what works best for my flock.

    Jim

  11. #99
    Cyberfriends CALVIN2's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    hey Mike your mail box is full sir .

  12. #100
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    intersting study Mike but it was conducted with layer mash on layers, not whole oats...
    still it's interesting but I think I can do with out the ethyl alcohol and CO2
    The organic material doesn't matter, it's the natural sugars and starch, that the fermentators ( actually called acid formers) feed on. Without yeast very little alcohol can be produced. Co2 is pretty much harmless, unless in great enough volume to drop pH, which ain't going to happen, It's going to bubble off anyway....a gas. But the question was how long can you keep soaked oats....I start feeding at 72 hrs., maximum about a week, I don't want a complete break down and all the feed converted. The enzyme producted is also considered a benefit. Just to let ya'll I don't add anything to the oats, but plain water. If you add vitamins your wasting your money, the acids produced will deteriorate them to uselessness, and the bacteria will use them. This is not googled, I worked for 33 yrs. in a industry, dealing with this process...not for feed, but the same process.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; July 1st, 2011 at 03:13 AM.

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  14. #101
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    no mike there was no question in referance to the study that you recomened, there was however a statement and your study while (as I said) interesting is not on soaked oats but rather mash (a processed feed) there is a differice.
    You feed what you like... I'll feed what I like and feel is best for my fowl and will continue to recomend that people not frement there soaked oats..

    Um University of Ohio, more likely it was a study on pigs, not gamefowl, you can't have it both ways......LOL

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  16. #102
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    More than likely it was a study (as Mike Strecker said) on fermented oats, yours was processed mash done on commercial layers at 16 weeks old and pigs fed liquid fermented feed. Umm don't sound like gamefowel to me and Lord!!! your study wasn't even done in the USA but in Denmark and Egypt...
    and Mike I can have it my way cause I did specify soaked and fermented oats... your study while interesting is not on fermented or soaked oats... Is it?
    You feed what you like... I'll feed what I like and feel is best for my fowl and will continue to recommend that people not ferment there soaked oats.. and avoid dierhia in their fowl, can't be any more gracious than that can I?
    Fair enough, send me the Ohio study and I will read it....or post it here, I think we all would like to read it..
    Last edited by Mike Everett; July 1st, 2011 at 04:05 AM.

  17. #103
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    You didn't send me your study Mike I had to research it for myself, (said with a sheepish grin)... buy the back yard flock by Mike Strecker. Or better yet contact him and ask him about the study. In the mean time
    You feed what you like... I'll feed what I like and feel is best for my fowl and will continue to recommend that people not ferment their soaked oats.. and avoid dierhia in their fowl, can't be any more gracious than that can I?
    I think that's all that needs saying about that subject don't you
    Changed you rebuttal quick, didn't you?....LOL I've had and read the book, I can't remember if he gave references...but I seriously doubt the study was on gamefowl, if there was a study.....I didn't see your last line, but yeah I though...
    Last edited by Mike Everett; July 1st, 2011 at 04:21 AM.

  18. #104
    Senior Member blackdeath's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    The probiotic effect of fermented oats is the most beneficial reason for feeding them. The added moisture content also aids with digestion. The additional enzymes and by-products produced is also a considerable benefit. Probiotics are nothing but the live microorganisms that provide a health benefit when consumed. They have a beneficial symbiotic relationship with the host and keep other harmful bacteria in check.
    It's just that simple.

    It is true that when you first start your fowl on fermented feeds of any kind there may be some initial symptoms of diarrhea until the fowl systems become familiar with the microorganisms before they then benefit from the newly introduced feed. Changing a fowl's feed from one thing to any other thing can have the same effect as the natural bacteria in even dry grains can cause this condition.

    We do not soak feed in such large quantities that we can not feed it within a relatively short period of time. I agree that if we did, the bacteria would break down, degrade, and consume many of the important natural nutrients in the feed and also any additives we have put in them. However, this is not the case at all. Most microorganisms initial food source in a medium is an elemental sugar. The carbohydrate and protein structures (chains) are not degraded in a short time.

    Some of the poultry nutritionist claim that dry oats should only represent up to 15% of the total ration. Some of these experts claim that for two reasons. One being that the hull is too much fiber if the diet exceeds that amount. Some claim that the phaltic acid in the hull is harmful to the fowl in higher percentages. We have heard of guys who only feed 50% oats and 50% corn as an every day feed. And, the world goes 'round.

    I guess we could argue about this all day and in the end some minds would be changed and other would not be.
    My reason for feeding soured oats is two fold and they are simple.
    1. for the added moisture
    2. for the probiotic effect

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  20. #105
    Senior Member BamaOkie's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    A quote from Mr Frank Shy's book on conditioning.

    "You will notice that this basic feed which I use is heavy in sour and whole oats. This makes for prolonged slow growth and late maturity. Both features are desirable in growing young stock. Flesh and fat can be acquired in a relatively short period of time, but strong bone development and strong ligaments and sinews require time. You cannot hurry them. The longer you can keep young stock growing, the tougher and stronger their bone and sinew structure will be at maturity. It is far better to have stags strong and husky in April than it is to have them fully matured in September.
    "Fresh green grass is No.1 feed in the world for chickens, especially from 8 weeks old until cooped, and all during the precondition and the Keep. The soaked sour oats described previously are next best. The more sour the better. Be sure to feed them from 12 weeks old, and forever after."

    Narraganset was a cocker of great achievements! Until A better rooster man can PROVE to me different, I will feed SOAKED Oats = eNuff said!

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  22. #106
    Senior Member blackdeath's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaOkie View Post
    A quote from Mr Frank Shy's book on conditioning.

    "You will notice that this basic feed which I use is heavy in sour and whole oats. This makes for prolonged slow growth and late maturity. Both features are desirable in growing young stock. Flesh and fat can be acquired in a relatively short period of time, but strong bone development and strong ligaments and sinews require time. You cannot hurry them. The longer you can keep young stock growing, the tougher and stronger their bone and sinew structure will be at maturity. It is far better to have stags strong and husky in April than it is to have them fully matured in September.
    "Fresh green grass is No.1 feed in the world for chickens, especially from 8 weeks old until cooped, and all during the precondition and the Keep. The soaked sour oats described previously are next best. The more sour the better. Be sure to feed them from 12 weeks old, and forever after."

    Narraganset was a cocker of great achievements! Until A better rooster man can PROVE to me different, I will feed SOAKED Oats = eNuff said!
    There you go right there folks. I concur BamaOkie.

  23. #107
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    No Mike I didnít change my rebuttal Iím just not going to argue worthless minutia with you.
    Mike Stecker sayís (first paragraph page 19), of his Book ďThe Back Yard Flock, I quote
    BTW No where did I say it was on gamefowl but then the study you sited wasn't on gamefowl at all
    LMAO that's all I am saying
    In other words you are saying, you don't even know if your study was on chickens, much less gamefowl....

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  25. #108
    Senior Member blackdeath's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    Mike Strecker was a well known cocker as well (I have his keep) either before or at the same time as Shy certainly before yours ... So the differences of opinion are not new and Ill continue not to feed fermented oats till some one can prove differint
    I don't think Strecker is on the same level as Frank Shy at all or by any comparison when talking about gamefowl greats. He wrote a nice little book about backyard chickens that had no focus on gamefowl. He is not known for anything associated with gamefowl to the extent Shy was and is no legend per se. His only claim to fame as regards chickens is raising a flock in the backyard and keeping them healthy. In that regard, it is a nice little book.

    Narragansett on the other hand wrote 3 books specifically about the game cock. Frank Shy was one of the greatest breeders of gamefowl known and definitely of his era. That opinion was held by many. His books on breeding and conditioning are cocking bibles to many. He also won the prestigious Claymore many times as well as other major derbies on record.
    Narragansett wrote a monthly for the gamefowl magazines for many year and he was one of the most read authors of all times in those magazines. He along with Edward Bently (The Strawshaker) and Fulldrop.

    Remind us of what big events Mike Strecker won or any strain of gamefowl he made famous. I can not recall.

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  27. #109
    CyberFriends gamecock96's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    I think the best would still be sharing YOUR own experiences in using something. I for one, do not experience diarrheah in my fowls when i started using sour Oats. Nice bodies in the fowls i condition. They are good bodied, yet light. Have not experienced any bad effects in using sour oats upto now. I have used these oats, soaked for about a month. They smell like alcohol yet i have fought these roosters fed with this mixture and i am very much satisfied.

    Al

  28. #110
    Member 808kelso's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Re: Soaked Oats
    I think the best would still be sharing YOUR own experiences in using something. I for one, do not experience diarrheah in my fowls when i started using sour Oats. Nice bodies in the fowls i condition. They are good bodied, yet light. Have not experienced any bad effects in using sour oats upto now. I have used these oats, soaked for about a month. They smell like alcohol yet i have fought these roosters fed with this mixture and i am very much satisfied.

    Al

    I agree 100% Al I never had any bad effects only good.

  29. #111
    Member coyoacan's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    I started using soaked oats this year and I got really good results I can honestly say this has been the healthiest year for my fowl.

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  31. #112
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    ... well not really the only man, there was Dr. Salsbury's Manual of Poultry Diseases, (that went out of print about 92 or 93) Dr. Salsbury owned Salsburys laboratories in Charles city Iowa. and he never recommended fermenting at about that time Salsbury labs was sold to Ft. Dodge...
    Now you act as if gamefowl are something more than just a chicken, nothing could be farther from the truth
    I've always thought that's the way you thought, and you can google all the sites you want, but there is a difference. That's why you'll never be one of us, they are so much more and you can not recognize it....have at it, but it won't matter.

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  33. #113
    Member 808kelso's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Dont know about Dr. Salsbury's but I learned from some of the best cockers not only on my island but in the states. They might not be doctors but highly respected not only for winning alot of derby's and big ones at that but breeding roosters and 90% of them soak oats and soak them stink. Me and them would not give them maggot oats but keep them covered as for the outer 10% they just don't want to deal with the stink smell on there hands

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  35. #114
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    Mike I've been a cocker for more than 60 years and my father before me... LMAO
    There is no difference physically in game fowl and barnyard chickens they are both affected by all of the same pathogens... both are feed the same... There is more known about the health of the chicken than there is about the health of their human caretakes LOL
    There are many physical differences....even the name chicken, describes a coward, not something you can equate with gamefowl. They may both be fowl, but they not the same.

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  37. #115
    Senior Member blackdeath's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post

    Big events don't mean squat.
    So I take you never won on in your so called 40 years.

    That is the stupid response one could expect coming from a troll like you. Reading your posts is always a waste of time. They are always full of mindless contention and always void of any fragment of intelligence.

    I know plenty about probiotics and fermented foods in the human diet and in animal or poultry feeds as well. You on the other hand cannot write two complete sentences on the subject without using Google for your brain. Oh well... pipeliners aren't known for brains anyway. You exemplify that every post so you can use that for an excuse.

    Books on the raising are a dime a dozen at every farm, ranch, and book store. No big deal there. One is as good as the other. I did not attack Strecker's book. In fact, I said it was a nice little book.
    I guess you flunked your reading comprehension class.

    It is only to my wonderment that JC has not banned you from this site. You have been banned from every site you have ever joined. You are only good for causing trouble in every thread you get into including this one. You ignorance was in full bloom and on display in another thread just yesterday as well. JC had to clean up your mess.

    Now, you are in this thread only for the sole purpose of showing you total ignorance and disrupting this thread.


    .
    Last edited by blackdeath; July 1st, 2011 at 01:08 PM.

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  39. #116
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    There is no difference physically in game fowl and barnyard chickens they are affected by all of the same pathogens
    They are both chickens period you can do the symantic dance till the cows come home, but in the end they are still chickens LMAO
    Breed a chicken to a gamefowl....what do you get? Damn sure ain't a gamefowl.

  40. #117
    Senior Member blackdeath's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    There is more known about the health of the chicken than there is about the health of their human caretakes...
    That statement shows your complete ignorance on the subject.

  41. #118
    Member Roundhead808's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Soak oats!!!!do you feed it daily or every other day?????????

  42. #119
    Senior Member blackdeath's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    ...There is more known about the health of the chicken than there is about the health of their human caretakes...
    you made the statement. the burden of proof is on you.
    save yourself the time and save yourself from looking stupid in front of all the folks.

    there have not been more studies done on chickens health than there has been done on human health studies. it is not even close in peer reviewed studies.

    if you can prove me wrong... have at it.
    but you won't be able to.


    .
    Last edited by blackdeath; July 1st, 2011 at 01:26 PM.

  43. #120
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Soaked Oats

    Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
    maybe not but Mike it could be a Cornish game hen, but it would still be a chicken mike
    Yes, the cross would be a chicken, not a gamefowl...thank you, the dictionaries you like to pull out don't even call a gamefowl a chicken.......they're both fowl, but distinguishable and separate, until bred together then lesser.......chicken is slang for common domestic fowl, not the same.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; July 1st, 2011 at 01:26 PM.

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