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Thread: Solid piece of the puzzle

  
  1. #1
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Solid piece of the puzzle

    Everyone is looking for GOLD in them thar hills. Ive been looking too. Seen some burners. Seen them win multiple times but NOT in my yard. NOT NEAR AS GOOD.
    WHY?
    “Cause that old MOJO dont work cross county lines” as QP might say or “you didnt get the good unns” as also he might say.
    ANYONE can hit a “NICK”. That doesn’t make you great or even MEDIOCRE.
    Boys all you can really ask for is a really SOLID piece to a puzzle. Thats it. All the rest is years of work. This Sh1t dont happen overnight lol.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; April 3rd, 2019 at 04:51 AM.

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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    I've known several very good cockers that were year after year in the winners circle. Nearly every one of them had one thing in common. They had a strain of fowl they had had for many years and they might not ever show one in the pit but they would show there crosses with great success. Jake Tull was a bit different he told me he was a student of Jake Engle. He could take the cream of anybody's fowl and win a derby. He had a cross that was very good also. Perry Hatch/ Law Gray.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    I've known several very good cockers that were year after year in the winners circle. Nearly every one of them had one thing in common. They had a strain of fowl they had had for many years and they might not ever show one in the pit but they would show there crosses with great success. Jake Tull was a bit different he told me he was a student of Jake Engle. He could take the cream of anybody's fowl and win a derby. He had a cross that was very good also. Perry Hatch/ Law Gray.
    Same type of thing ive noticed too. Most CONSISTENTLY successful people have one or two bloodlines theyve had for decades. There main focus is THEIR bloodlines. They do try out OTHER hens or a rooster here and there BUT its on their BASE fowl.
    They dont change out fowl every 5 years.

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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Same type of thing ive noticed too. Most CONSISTENTLY successful people have one or two bloodlines theyve had for decades. There main focus is THEIR bloodlines. They do try out OTHER hens or a rooster here and there BUT its on their BASE fowl.
    They dont change out fowl every 5 years.
    Maybe i know nothing. But i always wondered why people do this.
    Im always talking to or reading about people that just acquired a new bird/birds to "cross", or they've simply discarded what they had for new ones, but the first thing they do with those new ones is say, ďm gonna cross them..........
    Most any thing did start as a cross, but i don't know why so many seem to be afraid of moving on with those and trying to improve them. Or if they are lucky to acquire some good strait bred stock to keep them as a family and improve them.
    Like Mongoose has said, It takes years,but you cant expect Quality & consistency over night. And you'll never get that from continually breeding crosses or swapping out fowl every few years.
    People think it too hard to breed 1 or 2 families, the worries of breeding yourself into a corner/too close etc, but personally i think you can save yourself a lot of time/space & feed by doing so. You will also get a better idea of what to expect, you'll get to know what to look for in way of good/bad signs, things get a little more predictable.
    Either way you do things, there is always going to be ups/downs, culls etc.
    If you wanna just cross fowl, remember you first need 2 good families of quality fowl that can perform as a family before they "might"be good for a cross.
    If you go waaaay back, ask why the ol English/Irish & others bred families, and it is because of them and others of more recent times that have bred consistent families that we have some real quality birds today.

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    Senior Member BananaCamp's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    I wrote this in another thread....my mentor Redhat had his lines over 40 50 years....you know breeding is a project and takes a lifetime....so saying that my take on broodstocks is better getting them from one breeder....what you doing is joining a team that have the same stuff and years of experience with the line...the breeder is trying to improve his stuff and you doing the same with what you got from him....every year you can analyze the breeding....you can get one upgrade maybe three or four years down the road or when you find it share it....the biggest thing is trust, patience, and friendship....for breeding purposes only...alohas
    Last edited by BananaCamp; April 3rd, 2019 at 08:11 AM.

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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Everyone is looking for GOLD in them thar hills. Ive been looking too. Seen some burners. Seen them win multiple times but NOT in my yard. NOT NEAR AS GOOD.
    WHY?
    “Cause that old MOJO dont work cross county lines” as QP might say or “you didnt get the good unns” as also he might say.
    ANYONE can hit a “NICK”. That doesn’t make you great or even MEDIOCRE.
    Boys all you can really ask for is a really SOLID piece to a puzzle. Thats it. All the rest is years of work. This Sh1t dont happen overnight lol.
    Here here,
    I have to agree with LaBlues post also. My buddy has been winning since the sixties. What is his secret. An old solid family of Murphy’s Whitehackle Grey. He breeds The Chocolate Grey to his Albany’s. I have watched him win over seventy percent with that cross for 15 years. Good blood wins men just screw them up lol

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    Senior Member springwater's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    I will say something that may cause a little heat and some might not like it but it needs to be said if only to get somebody looking in the mirror and really being honest with themselves. There are winners and there are losers. Some guys just have what it takes to be successful with the birds and can take a good solid family and get the most out of them and will always be one of the top entries. Some can take those exact solid bloodlines and find a way to lose. You cant help them, even if you get them straightened out for a derby or two and they win, they will soon go back to their losing ways. They are just not able or willing to make the sacrifices or able to get the feel for getting roosters where they need to be on a consistent basis and lack the focus and patience it takes to breed a family to improve them. Doesn't matter what birds they get, they will still lose and are usually the type every few years they are looking for new broodfowl because they were cheated and didn't get the seller's best or one of the other thousands of excuses. I don't go to shows here in states anymore because of laws but the guys that was winning 10-15 years ago are still winning and the guys that was losing are still losing. Maybe its not the bloodlines.

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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    The piece of the puzzle is knowing a family of fowl . You know when they are right , off or coming on . You know when they perform best December through March or April through June . You know if they are stags fowl or not. If they can compete after 4 years of age . You know if they are better with a rotation keep or table worked. You know if they are better a little wet or a little dry .

    How do you know this very important information ? And so much more !!!! You know , because you have tried it all with them and have paid attention 365 days a year , for years. Not because you read it on the Internet . Go get some chicken **** on your hands men !!!!!

  9. #9
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by springwater View Post
    I will say something that may cause a little heat and some might not like it but it needs to be said if only to get somebody looking in the mirror and really being honest with themselves. There are winners and there are losers. Some guys just have what it takes to be successful with the birds and can take a good solid family and get the most out of them and will always be one of the top entries. Some can take those exact solid bloodlines and find a way to lose. You cant help them, even if you get them straightened out for a derby or two and they win, they will soon go back to their losing ways. They are just not able or willing to make the sacrifices or able to get the feel for getting roosters where they need to be on a consistent basis and lack the focus and patience it takes to breed a family to improve them. Doesn't matter what birds they get, they will still lose and are usually the type every few years they are looking for new broodfowl because they were cheated and didn't get the seller's best or one of the other thousands of excuses. I don't go to shows here in states anymore because of laws but the guys that was winning 10-15 years ago are still winning and the guys that was losing are still losing. Maybe its not the bloodlines.
    Most definitely! Not all are "created" equal and it's a major component and factor that separates the masses. Things come easier nowadays in many facets of life and it infects the way things are approached and carried out both physically aka hands on and cerebrally, similar to Longheels post. You see it in every area of society and this sport and the arduous job that comes with it is not immune to feeling its effects.

    To the post, if man seeks a solid 1 or 2 piece today, quite often that will take some time to even find let alone prolonging the blood once it is found (many, many years of attention to detail). Many have paid big money for marquis named fowl, only to discard them or perhaps lose them for whatever reason that may be. Perhaps 8 out 10 times the buyer didnt know what they were getting and or what they sought in their minds. Its not easy and Id imagine it would be a freakin hell of a task today if one was trying to acquire a family or line to be the pinnacle and hub of which to build around. Its even more of a nightmare if you seek a certain skill set thats not even near the front of the stove nowadays, but rather on the backburner like gaff gameness and power. Afterall, who needs that........ (sarcasm)
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; April 4th, 2019 at 12:41 AM.

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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Where is that damn like and thanks button. I got some likes to check the boxes. Spring water is spot on with his post. And I'll second that notion.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    Where is that damn like and thanks button. I got some likes to check the boxes. Spring water is spot on with his post. And I'll second that notion.
    Yup, but hes busting alot of bubbles saying that.
    You can be a ACE spoon man do crappy in this game.
    You can be an ACE selector and still not do to great.
    You can also be an ACE breeder and be mediocre.

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by longheel View Post
    The piece of the puzzle is knowing a family of fowl . You know when they are right , off or coming on . You know when they perform best December through March or April through June . You know if they are stags fowl or not. If they can compete after 4 years of age . You know if they are better with a rotation keep or table worked. You know if they are better a little wet or a little dry .

    How do you know this very important information ? And so much more !!!! You know , because you have tried it all with them and have paid attention 365 days a year , for years. Not because you read it on the Internet . Go get some chicken **** on your hands men !!!!!
    I have to agree with my friend on this one. Not everyone knows what the hell they doing. Experiment and learn on your own. Facts override "chicken talk".

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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Yup, but hes busting alot of bubbles saying that.
    You can be a ACE spoon man do crappy in this game.
    You can be an ACE selector and still not do to great.
    You can also be an ACE breeder and be mediocre.
    some how I never grasped any thing you said. All your quotes are off. An ace very seldom loses. And great feeders win more than great cocks. Get both together and start smiling.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    some how I never grasped any thing you said. All your quotes are off. An ace very seldom loses. And great feeders win more than great cocks. Get both together and start smiling.
    The post your referencing MEANS:
    You cant just posses just ONE SKILL.
    Sounds to me you posses a natural ability for selecting great fowl.
    Not everyone has that ability. I actually rely on friends eyes more than mine.
    Funny, you seem to understand QP, which, to me, hes usually off in la la land most of the time.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Mongoose , it's because you exaggerate things or just make up scenarios to prove your point , like everyone does .. but you can't prove something is real with examples from your imagination. What makes you hard to understand is your effort to hide your identity or what you really have or do ends up tainting what you are trying to say ... mixing fact and fiction . Del just states the facts , so it's clear cut and not crossbred .

    IN the old days folks were specialists due to circumstance ... the rich guys weren't farm hands . The good feeders were often poor and didn't have a farm and breeding operation , etc ,etc . Most of your really good feeders actually did have a line of fowl or help with breeding .. today even the poorest folk can find an old farm that was bought and cut into two acre lots that are rent-to-own and they can put a trailer house on it and have fowl ... they can't work a little and get food stamps instead of having to share crop ... so everyone can be handler/feeder/breeder

    In 2019 even the poor folk that grew up on the feeding/handling side have access to information and fowl that they wouldn't have had 50 years ago ... you don't see many farms that don't do it all . Gilliam , Rat , Ramsay , Nesmith ,etc ..
    I agree. Anyone can feed. Anyone can select and anyone can breed.
    It DOESNT mean anyone is an ACE at anyone of them.

    Now, what im saying, is ANYONE can put 2 different families in a pen and get a “NICK”.
    What you really NEED in this game is to understand WHY chickens win, then get a hold of them and HOPE that THEY “NICK WITH YOU!” Cause if they dont. There useless too you.
    You also need to understand YOUR CHOSEN GAME. (ie show type).

  16. #16
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    “Nicking” with the owner is something no one really talks about. It entailes so many things. Its usually “luck” that u choose a family like this. Most people piss them away cause there too impatient or are always looking for greener pastures. “All that glitter aint gold”.
    It takes, “at least,” 10 years to figure a family out. Most people are CROSSING great fowl they acquire with every fkn thing BUT WHAT THE ORIGINAL BREEDER Bred them with.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; April 4th, 2019 at 08:37 PM.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Mongoose , it's because you exaggerate things or just make up scenarios to prove your point , like everyone does .. but you can't prove something is real with examples from your imagination. What makes you hard to understand is your effort to hide your identity or what you really have or do ends up tainting what you are trying to say ... mixing fact and fiction . Del just states the facts , so it's clear cut and not crossbred .

    IN the old days folks were specialists due to circumstance ... the rich guys weren't farm hands . The good feeders were often poor and didn't have a farm and breeding operation , etc ,etc . Most of your really good feeders actually did have a line of fowl or help with breeding .. today even the poorest folk can find an old farm that was bought and cut into two acre lots that are rent-to-own and they can put a trailer house on it and have fowl ... they can't work a little and get food stamps instead of having to share crop ... so everyone can be handler/feeder/breeder

    In 2019 even the poor folk that grew up on the feeding/handling side have access to information and fowl that they wouldn't have had 50 years ago ... you don't see many farms that don't do it all . Gilliam , Rat , Ramsay , Nesmith ,etc ..
    And I use examples to make it easier for you to understand my point. If you cant understand it. Well, what can I say........
    All you ever talk about is hounds. All a hound needs is a great nose ans the sense to follow it. Chicken is so much more.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; April 4th, 2019 at 08:48 PM.

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    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Theres some things to consider, if a bird wont bench work is it dunghill? Answer is no. I have many breeds, and have to change condition for certain fowl which is adaptation. Thats prob why most folks stick with one or too types, cause they only know one way. Many ways to skin a cat! Also applies with breeding. When you have many breeds single mating is key to pinpoint the trash. Anyway this is my way I wouldnt encourage anyone to do this cause its alot on work.

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    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Other things help like getting them to eat out of your hand, talk to them theyll do better if you talk to em, I talk to mine most every day. Sounds dumb huh? But its true.

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    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    I gotta dissagree on that. I used to beleive bench was only way to go, some just wont I primarily use bench for lazy ones which I would consider more dunghill like.

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    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    “Nicking” with the owner is something no one really talks about. It entailes so many things. Its usually “luck” that u choose a family like this. Most people piss them away cause there too impatient or are always looking for greener pastures. “All that glitter aint gold”.
    It takes, “at least,” 10 years to figure a family out. Most people are CROSSING great fowl they acquire with every fkn thing BUT WHAT THE ORIGINAL BREEDER Bred them with.
    Goes back to what I once said, if I got Del's Mugg I wldnt be so quick to do this and that to them but thats just me and my intent for them. Id breed the line as they are first so that I got to know the line. Thatll take some time as in years not a season. Afterwards Id cross if need be or if I felt something could possibly enhance their original and highly successful form. I wldnt imagine Id experience depression in the first five years so plenty of time. Id agree with the decade statement. That entails everything though from how they act, eat and pass food in certain weather to sustaining their base via breeding etc etc. Not all offspring from the straight base are gonna meet your expectations so they are carefully and diligently narrowed down to the ones that did make the cut which will then be used to continue the base. Gotta be smart, you wont run out of your base line if you work on it while also experimenting with crosses that come later on. If one starts crossing like crazy only as in hybrids during the first years and then worries about sustaining the straight base line after they realize their base line specimens for continued crossings are lacking or insufficient, you are pretty much screwed. The catch up game usually doesnt pan out. That happened to me before, sucks but I wont do that again lol. It aint no one year project, thats for sure. Might be for short term visionaries but not long term ones.
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; April 5th, 2019 at 05:36 AM.

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    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Ya we need the like buttons back! Ehrrrrrr. Great post kevin!

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    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Well, my ramps only need be halved, but excellent all the way to 1/16th.

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    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    You won't find a breeder or guy selling keeps that moves product with a ten year sales pitch .. An average student could be a Phd before could get a handle on good fowl ? Jibber jabber .. Good thing the Internet is a big place , folks can find each other faster.

    I dropped my money fight in the first derby I ever entered .. Bred , fed , handled and heeled . Stags into cocks , I was 13 ... Good fowl , well cared for will produce and win the majority in heels .

    Same as the two sides of advice on Asil .. One says it takes years and the secret combo to win . The guys actually inning say put em over a few families and if none of the halves win for you .. Cull the asil .
    Well no, they sell with the pitch that you can win with them now, highly understandable in terms of intent which is to sell and not discourage lol. But how long did it take them and how long have they been at it? That sales pitch has nothing to do with sustaining a line though for the years to come. Anyone can breed a chicken, thats the pitch they give and youll get winners. The shocker comes afterwards and you find out on your own that its not that easy to maintain and win. There s only so much one can tell you, rest you have to acquire through years of dedication. They dont want you to sustain the line for a decade but rather come back for more soon. Thats what they want, turnover. If one can learn everything about a base line in a couple seasons, thats incredible and thats because one could only have bred them once, twice at most and the oldest ones are bullstags. I know I cant do that and thats because I do have a pretty good melon on my shoulders when it comes to this area.
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; April 5th, 2019 at 06:07 AM.

  25. #25
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    I wasnt cheering anybody on, im speaking from actual experience. There are so many variables that come with sustaining a line that its impossible to master in less than 5 minimum. Its like having 2 men, 1 has been married a year and the other lets say 10, 15, 20 ... 1 year guy says I know everything abt my wife, other guy laughs at him and says you dont know jack yet. It takes time and years to know something, and you cant fast forward bc scenarios always present themselves. If you can do that, thats awesome and your knack is just superior to most. Ive been around em for decades and got a pretty good eye and sense of feel for them but to know a new line inside out in a couple years? Ive yet to master that so quickly. Chickens, yea they say theyre dumb but I disagree. One thing for sure, they are a complex creature. Youll find variations in all lines and even within the family.
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; April 5th, 2019 at 06:17 AM.

  26. #26
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Birds that won't bench are a type of dunghill .. And those kind will be fickle at all the wrong times .
    Never bench my birds. I must have dunghills.

  27. #27
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    With all the babies popping out like popcorn, Im a tired sob at end of the day and my brain cant delve into the riddles as good as it could in other parts of the season. I put so much time into them that Id never disrespect the creation because of all the smiles and joy theyve given me. Besides, no animal is civilzed anyway besides us and even thats questionnable at times. They all have their own vices, do crazy sht, will screw their mother and daughters and sisters as they know no better. It doesnt make them dumb F's, thats just the way it is in their primal habitat. I dont think its possible to apply a broad paint stroke and label game fowl as a whole. In a generic and elementary sense yes you can but not in their intermediate and advanced stages. Thats all my brain can do right now lol, you all got it from here.
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; April 5th, 2019 at 08:58 AM.

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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I see most divorces in the first few years or at about the 20 yr mark when the kids get old enough to care for themselves and the woman either has had enough and not obligated or the man finally finds a younger woman who don't nag him ..but point is they were doing wrong the whole time . I put more faith in a couple that both do their part from the start,

    Mongoose has said this plenty .. Defensive , " smart " fowl are cold . Most would agree . If fowl could actually be smart then you would be able to find defensive fowl that were game .. So it questions heavily if the smart was ever there at al or just cold feet ... Which in turn is why good ,game fowl will win and produce for good chicken men from the start .. If not , you probably have cold fowl ,short bred fowl or just ain't got a feel for it .

    Chickens eat poop , styrofoam .. Couldn't learn to forage in winter .. Have method for propagation like how new male lion leaders kill the babies to make new gene pools or wolves run off their sons ,etc .. They will just kill each other , breed their momma and let anything eat them ... There isn't a dumber kind of animal we use for sport . No way they are unique , hard to figure out ,etc .. They are either game and want to fight or trying to sull up over everything you do ... And folks ain't got no mean old men that know better to tell them anymore .
    I find your statements hard to fathom sometimes when you put across being such a knowledgeable person.
    Why is it dumb to kill off or chase off offspring of another male so you can pass on your own gene pool????. If they couldn't learn to forage in winter, they wouldn't be here.
    Animals may breed their own mother, but that only happens if she knows that it will increase the strength in the genes to permit survival ( case of wolves etc.)
    Ive read here before, youve said about breeding like, as the wild do. survival of the fittest etc........but now you state its dumb.........then why try to perpetuate what goes on in the wild to an extent.
    I don't consider animals dumb, i actually consider humans dumb.
    Humans will breed dumb to dumb, defect to defect, try to save every sick child that wouldn't naturally make it etc,etc.........look where its getting us.!!!!!!!!!
    Animals have and always will find ways to evolve to their surrounds/environment. Humans Just screw it up, most races of humans have basically f##ked everything that ensures survival.
    War don't kill??????????? parts of the world can't supply enough food to feed their population, they over bred, and screwed the land. Animals cull naturally for survival and their environment.
    Cocks wont bench, because they are dumb????????? or is it us that are dumb for thinking they need to?????????
    If you leave a couple stags in a large pen together, and they get to killing, and you end up with one. Was he dumb to kill off his brothers to ensure his survival or was he smart and wired right????????
    Most times i say people use dumb as an excuse, because something didn't work for them or they didn't get the out come they wanted.
    Id like to go on about this, but i have work to do. I leave it here.........
    Just my open thoughts is all this is, thanx.
    Last edited by Crazy Eyes; April 5th, 2019 at 09:15 AM.

  29. #29
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Wild animals have ways to breed for the long haul , they are complex .. Where a chicken s retarded , it has no survival skills , no way to preserve itself like wolves and such .. Studying the behavior of a domestic chicken is about like studying a crayon ... You jst wrote a short novel rebutting a misunderstanding on your end
    If you think that is the case, please tell me why we have chickens......Did we not take them from the wild in the first place. Elaborate on your end................answer the few questions i asked.........
    Last edited by Crazy Eyes; April 5th, 2019 at 09:32 AM.

  30. #30
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    Re: Solid piece of the puzzle

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I didn't take any from the wild , but .. Meat , eggs , looks and fighting is what they have been bred for at the cost of everything else . Y'all know a chihuahua wouldn't last a week in the wild , but somehow wanna give imagined virtuos qualities to a domestic chicken .

    Howsemen , Houndsmen , etc .. All wanna pretend they are heros and their animals are majestic and they have deep connections .. They are an extension of us and all that . Well , they are all just genetically modified animals we lock up all day til we need them to get our rocks off ... Nothing noble about any of it . Of all those sport bred animals though , you better believe a chicken is the dumbest and studying their feelings just might be dumber

    You can't pretend to respect and admire a creature , and give it character .. Then kill it if it can't fight good and if it can you still let it get killed in the pit .. And cull / eat their offspring you don't need .. That's so much more disturbing than how a human should treat something they claim to admire ..
    Lucky you don't free range any, they couldn't survive, ha?
    I really like how you never directly answer any questions..........LOL
    I can see what your about though.....................
    Have a good day.
    Last edited by Crazy Eyes; April 5th, 2019 at 10:03 AM.

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