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Thread: medication; is it really needed?

  
  1. #31
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Wow (hatch black) 15 - 30 seconds is a long time. You sure you calculated right. It feels more like 5 - 10 seconds. Thats just the majority of fights i saw.

  2. #32
    Member Dragon Storm's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    As I stated before medications/vitamins do give your birds an edge in any fight (hackfights,derbies,tupadas, etc.) if you know how to give it the right way. You still have to have good bloodlines, good breeding, fed properly and just given 100% care. These medications/vitamins will give your birds the edge especially in the drag (no time limits). I have used them in Manila and in Arizona when it was still legal to fight. I have spoken to some known breeders and they also admit they use somekind of medications/vitamins when they condition their birds. Conditioning, pointing and holding their point on fightday and proper moisture control are critical factors. When you have all these, medications/vitamins will help them attain their full potential.

  3. #33
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Dragon what kind of medication you talking about. Is it like a magic shot/medication. I believe in all rooster. The reason why the so called big time guys are hard to beat is because they got good roosters. Magic shot or pill is bologna. One stroke and thats all folks. Cut cut cut. Peace

  4. #34
    Senior Member blue_talon's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    natural way with a little meds to help make it easier.
    but absolutely no DRUGS for me.

  5. #35
    Senior Member wrigleycanada's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    If you will calculate the amount of drugs that we should give a chicken is suppose to be 1:50 of the dossage that we give to humans; considering that the weight of human is 50 times the weight of a gamecock. How come that the dosage being administer to gamecocks is almost the same as the humans? Have anyone think the effect of the drug to the chicken brain? Or to its internal organ? Proper administration of medication should be learned properly; but you can check the medications being posted here in 21 days days conditioning and you will notice that the dosage of drugs is over the limit. I think there is no proper research being done before they submit their thesis.

  6. #36
    Member Dragon Storm's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    I do not believe in the magic shots since I believe it can do more harm than good. I have experimented with the so-called medications that Breco and F.B. Mcguiness advertises and I know the side-effects. Don't you use any of them (eg.aminoplex, aminovite, b-12, b-15 atbp.)? Cockfighting have come a long way ever since I started in the 70s. That is the main reason that I use medications/vitamins is due to the big time breeders. I don't think they have better cocks than I do since I buy from the same breeders they do. I think it's more of the amount of care that they can give vs, a small time breeder like us (financially). With proper medications/vitamins will give me the edge or equal still using proper conditioning. Based on what I have seen and humble experience, I know they use medications/vitamins in their fowl as much as some have admitted they use it.

  7. #37
    Member ernie67's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    if cock A and cock B have the same ability cock A is given a good supplement and cock b is all natural and they have the same luck where you going to bet remember CARL LEWIS and BEN JOHNSON

  8. #38
    Member Dragon Storm's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Do you know why steriods are banned from any sport events? It gives the players an edge over someone who does not.

  9. #39
    Member jalmz's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    i wanna up this thread.. very interesting

  10. #40
    Senior Member Hatch Black's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon Storm
    Do you know why steriods are banned from any sport events? It gives the players an edge over someone who does not.
    the difference in other sports and cockfighting is all it takes is one shot and the fight is over. you can give them all the steroids you want but it aint gonna matter when they get hit in the right place. also the closest thing in sports to cockfighting is boxing. remember the last guy who was on steroids and fought dela hoya......he lost.

  11. #41
    CyberFriends Pinolim's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by wrigleycanada
    If you will calculate the amount of drugs that we should give a chicken is suppose to be 1:50 of the dossage that we give to humans; considering that the weight of human is 50 times the weight of a gamecock. How come that the dosage being administer to gamecocks is almost the same as the humans? Have anyone think the effect of the drug to the chicken brain? Or to its internal organ? Proper administration of medication should be learned properly; but you can check the medications being posted here in 21 days days conditioning and you will notice that the dosage of drugs is over the limit. I think there is no proper research being done before they submit their thesis.
    You are too literal in your interpretation in making a conclusion about the posted keep. That 21 days you are talking about is what works for that person and not all cockers are a bunch of idiots who follow everything that is being done in that keep.
    We all know that what works for one will not necessarily work for all...... yes I know what I'm doing I'm doing with my roosters.... my derby results are far from perfect but I won some, I lost some, champion in some, eliminated in some... but after many years, I'm still around breeding, conditioning and fighting what I bred and reared.
    You probably used that 21 keep in the past , giving medications without even thinking ending with unsatisfactory results and now you accuse those manufacturers of keep aids of selling worthless keep aids and unfounded, baseless claims.
    The dosages you are talking about based on weight comparing human and chickens is an inaccurate comparison, just like comparing apples and oranges.
    Yes it's true, by weight comparison the dosages SUGGESTED by the manufacturers may be an overkill.....or over the limit as you say..... BUT do you have any idea much of the drug is absorbed and metabolized by the chicken when given orally?, do you have any idea how much of the drug is inactivated by the chicken when given orally or parentherally?
    Or are you just trying to impress people here of your knowledge ?
    I don't use that keep, I have my own which I feel works for me well enough to keep me that long in this unpredictable game/sport.

  12. #42
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Hatchblack I agree with you on your last post. What are the roosters fighting with no weapons. Running a marathon and being stronger is a whole different ball game. If im 150 pounds all natural and my enemy was 200 pounds all medicated and full of hormones,steroids whatever . We both had knives as weapons. I stick my opponent first in the heart, who will die first. He might be bigger and stronger,faster but I still got him first. I guess steroids or whatever just got thrown out. In the lk things happen too fast. But then again for those who see it the other way, that's what they wanna see.

  13. #43
    Member jalmz's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    i just wanna clarify that this is thread is entitled medication; is it really needed?

    to cut the story short, yes proper and right medication is needed...

  14. #44
    Senior Member jungold's Avatar
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    Cool Re: medication; is it really needed?

    MEDICATION, IS IT REALLY NEEDED? If you asked me I say "Yes", if you know What your doing,,, If just Guessin' what is it & what is the Wonder of it , Great you'll do it fine... Experience's will teachs you the "Truth" about it, Stay away from "Drugs", it's not GOOD to the Gamecock....

  15. #45
    Senior Member tebs69's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by wrigleycanada
    With the skyrocketing prices of drugs, vitamins and other kinds of medication in conditioning your chicken; is it really needed? Is there no oraganic alternative to those synthetic drugs that we are giving our chicken during the conditioning period? I think under normal circumstances a very healthy strong gamecock without medication can still beat another gamecock loaded with all kinds of medication so why bother spend those precious money on medication? Please give your input friends in sabong.

    I learned a conditioning system for lk,, NO SHOT NO PILLS, , we use fighting in the cock derbies we're very successful,,, but fighting in the stag derbies we introduce low dose of medication coz we want them to advance their development stages.... in PI ,, india generics very affordable ..

    If you don't know proper conditioning and pointing system,, load your fightingcocks those perfrmance enhancer medication its help...natural stimulant and energy booster sometimes its in our kitchen or in coffee tray ...

  16. #46
    Member Dragon Storm's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    I used steriods as an example to make a point that our fowls do need medications/vitamins for them to be better conditioned given the right dosage. I would like to ask the people who are so negative with any medications/vitamins in this thread - have you ever used any medications/vitamins (i.e aminoplex, aminovite, b-12, b-15 etc.) on your birds? What do you use when you condition? Nothing just plain feeds? People even your feeds have medications/vitamins. Read the label. When I buy my feeds, I read the label, I try to see what is added in the feeds - you will be surprised. In conclusion, when you condition just follow what you know based on your own knowledge,experience and what works for you. Peace to everyone

  17. #47
    Senior Member wrigleycanada's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinolim
    You are too literal in your interpretation in making a conclusion about the posted keep. That 21 days you are talking about is what works for that person and not all cockers are a bunch of idiots who follow everything that is being done in that keep.
    We all know that what works for one will not necessarily work for all...... yes I know what I'm doing I'm doing with my roosters.... my derby results are far from perfect but I won some, I lost some, champion in some, eliminated in some... but after many years, I'm still around breeding, conditioning and fighting what I bred and reared.
    You probably used that 21 keep in the past , giving medications without even thinking ending with unsatisfactory results and now you accuse those manufacturers of keep aids of selling worthless keep aids and unfounded, baseless claims.
    The dosages you are talking about based on weight comparing human and chickens is an inaccurate comparison, just like comparing apples and oranges.
    Yes it's true, by weight comparison the dosages SUGGESTED by the manufacturers may be an overkill.....or over the limit as you say..... BUT do you have any idea much of the drug is absorbed and metabolized by the chicken when given orally?, do you have any idea how much of the drug is inactivated by the chicken when given orally or parentherally?
    Or are you just trying to impress people here of your knowledge ?
    I don't use that keep, I have my own which I feel works for me well enough to keep me that long in this unpredictable game/sport.
    With this thread, I think have ruffled some feathers. I apologize if my post disagree with many and with many sabungero which the 21 days conditioning works for them. Give all the medications all you like as long as it works for you and I think I should be minding my own busines. Thats it for me. To each his own. Whatever works for you then go ahead. Besides I do not have any authority in my post. I only post what I observed and what I think which oftentimes contrary to the conventional.

  18. #48
    Senior Member Mudflop's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    We do use vitamins, that is normal for everyone to use some form, but not steroids. It has more after effects that changes the cock permanently.

    I grew up with a cousin that was a body builder, he used steroids and even stacked them. He had muscle all over, but after he quit using steroids, everything went downhill. His body shrank to a point where he was wrinkled all over. His liver deterioated, His joints could not move well. His reflexes was slow as if he aged 50 years ahead of his time. He died at the age of 37 from Kidney failure.

    I will not use this on my fowl as if any one wins multiple times, shows excellent cutting ability, style, and gameness he will be in a brood pen. I can't use one in the brood pen that already is deteroiating from the effects of drugs as he will not live long enough to be linebred to his offspring.

    If anyone wants to use anyform of drugs it is their fowl and can do whatever they want with them. Do I believe it makes them superior than my natural method with liberal amounts of vitamins and good strong nourishing food. Never, I'll take em on any day. Especially in the lk, where getting there and cutting deep first tells the story who will be the victorious cock in battle. Yes the feed mixture has vitamins in them already, but is it enough? Or is it too much? Vitamin K, needed to thicken the blood to coagulate when veins are cut, but rabbit pellets is a natural form of vitamin K. If it is already in my feed mixture, why would I want to buy more. I'd just and a few rabbit pellets into their feed cup. But now to make the blood thick will also make the cock slower in movement. Do I want this while trying to get in the first lick. No sir, not me.
    Last edited by Mudflop; July 27th, 2009 at 12:14 AM.

  19. #49
    Cyberfriends benjoy's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudflop
    We do use vitamins, that is normal for everyone to use some form, but not steroids. It has more after effects that changes the cock permanently.

    I grew up with a cousin that was a body builder, he used steroids and even stacked them. He had muscle all over, but after he quit using steroids, everything went downhill. His body shrank to a point where he was wrinkled all over. His liver deterioated, His joints could not move well. His reflexes was slow as if he aged 50 years ahead of his time. He died at the age of 37 from Kidney failure.

    I will not use this on my fowl as if any one wins multiple times, shows excellent cutting ability, style, and gameness he will be in a brood pen. I can't use one in the brood pen that already is deteroiating from the effects of drugs as he will not live long enough to be linebred to his offspring.

    If anyone wants to use anyform of drugs it is their fowl and can do whatever they want with them. Do I believe it makes them superior than my natural method with liberal amounts of vitamins and good strong nourishing food. Never, I'll take em on any day. Especially in the lk, where getting there and cutting deep first tells the story who will be the victorious cock in battle. Yes the feed mixture has vitamins in them already, but is it enough? Or is it too much? Vitamin K, needed to thicken the blood to coagulate when veins are cut, but rabbit pellets is a natural form of vitamin K. If it is already in my feed mixture, why would I want to buy more. I'd just and a few rabbit pellets into their feed cup. But now to make the blood thick will also make the cock slower in movement. Do I want this while trying to get in the first lick. No sir, not me.
    Very nice post sir mudlof, all your post are very informative and helpful

  20. #50
    Senior Member wrigleycanada's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by benjoy
    Very nice post sir mudlof, all your post are very informative and helpful
    I have read that you canvass for the price of one medication (SV12) and it cost 2,000.00 pesos per 30 ml bottle. How about the prices of other supplements? It will cost a fortune maybe if you administer all of those medication to your chickens in conditioning. If your chicken wins then you will say that because of the drugs that made them win. Its not the drugs but the cutting ability that make the chicken win.

  21. #51
    Member Sweater_Pogi's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    cocks dont last long, why hesitate giving them performance drugs, supplements etc...etc. ...are you letting your cock fight morethan the age of 4 years, natural conditioning still needs additional supplements to sustained lost energy that cocks used during thier excercise...those who fight in WSC or other big derbies do you think they dont used any performance drugs?...my NINONG said "do all you can to help your chickens wins except cheat". my final answer is "YES" your chickens needs it.

  22. #52
    Senior Member berniev's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by wrigleycanada
    I have read that you canvass for the price of one medication (SV12) and it cost 2,000.00 pesos per 30 ml bottle. How about the prices of other supplements? It will cost a fortune maybe if you administer all of those medication to your chickens in conditioning. If your chicken wins then you will say that because of the drugs that made them win. Its not the drugs but the cutting ability that make the chicken win.
    Wrigs,
    Here we go again. In my 21 day keep and most cockers do, SV12 is given 3X only of .2ml/shot - hence I wont even use 1ml for the duration of the conditioning. If you can bet a few thousands on your warrior, cant you spare a few hundred bucks on items that can enhance its performance. So what if the medications made my cock wins, it is still a win and in the end a W is pasted across my entry's name on the scoreboard.

  23. #53
    Senior Member wrigleycanada's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by berniev


    Wrigs,
    Here we go again. In my 21 day keep and most cockers do, SV12 is given 3X only of .2ml/shot - hence I wont even use 1ml for the duration of the conditioning. If you can bet a few thousands on your warrior, cant you spare a few hundred bucks on items that can enhance its performance. So what if the medications made my cock wins, it is still a win and in the end a W is pasted across my entry's name on the scoreboard.
    Thats what you think. You rely too much on your medication. Your chicken win not because of the medication but because of good winning bloodline, cutting ability, and a little bit of luck. Those were the source of your win and not on the medication.

  24. #54
    Senior Member berniev's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by wrigleycanada
    Thats what you think. You rely too much on your medication. Your chicken win not because of the medication but because of good winning bloodline, cutting ability, and a little bit of luck. Those were the source of your win and not on the medication.
    That answers your question in your thread, and as far as I am concern, YES medication is needed but not to the point that they are drugged.

  25. #55
    Senior Member Mudflop's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    (are you letting your cock fight morethan the age of 4 years,)

    Yes, I recently fought a half Mel Sims Hatch, half Gavilan Grey at 7 years old. It was his 4th win. First fight he was cut a little, 2nd, 3rd, 4th no cuts. The 4th fight we connected the opponent in the air and drove him to the ground with continuous punishing blows until my son pulled him off the dead cock. Here we turn loose and pick up our own cocks as the ref only counts to 5 and tells you to pick up or put down on the short line if needed. This instance placing on the short line was not needed as the opposing cock was dead in the corner with our grey rooster still deliverying severe and devastatiing blows. I have fought a hatch cock at 9 years old which was his 10th win. He lived to be 13 before he expired. I'd rather show a 5 year old previous winner than a young bull stag in a tournament. At least I know if they get cut severely they will stay and continue the fight unlike the bullstag which may lay down and not return any licks even though he still could.

    With steroids, and I have the experiences with it, the cock is over aged at 4 years old and no longer can walk properly as his knee joints don't bend anymore. I truely believe that a multiple time winner makes me money. One that wins then expires, I can only break even with alll the feed to raise him, time and energy since I bet only a retiree pension. However if he wins several more times, he has paid his way to the funeral hall with a little extra to feed his offspring. At times they make enough for me to take the wife out to dinner too.

    I'll repeat again, if anyone wants to use steroids, it is their fowl and they can do whatever they want with them. For me, I'll always look for cost savings methods while retaining their youth by providing proper food, exercise and liberal amounts of vitamins. If I can live to be 100 it will be by eating natural foods and exercising with my fowl not sitting in front of the dang one eyed monster in the living room while eating chips and drinking beer.

  26. #56
    Cyberfriends benjoy's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by wrigleycanada
    I have read that you canvass for the price of one medication (SV12) and it cost 2,000.00 pesos per 30 ml bottle. How about the prices of other supplements? It will cost a fortune maybe if you administer all of those medication to your chickens in conditioning. If your chicken wins then you will say that because of the drugs that made them win. Its not the drugs but the cutting ability that make the chicken win.

    Yo wrig, SV12 caught my attention thats why im planning to administer it, thats why im canvassing because i cannot purchase pricey supplements IM POOR and your right its all about CUTTING the question is will your rooster cut during pit time?

    Ill tell you what my friend, read mudlof post and you will learn a lot

    Sir Mudlof,

    let me grab this opportunity to thank you for the conditioning tips you shared with me several months ago, all natural methods. Because of this sabong afficionados here in my place (Middle East) started to think thrice before pairing my rooster for a pit. Using your method plus a cheap vitamin B12 spells 13W-2L oh and BTW wrigs im still POOR LOL

    Jackson "benjoy" Mariano
    Last edited by benjoy; July 27th, 2009 at 03:11 AM.

  27. #57
    Senior Member Mudflop's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Thnks benjoy, I try to write as I see it based on my experiences. I have learned to respect everyone's opinion as they are entitled to it. I have had a very long experience with gamefowl as I was born into it. My father and grandfather both were raising some when I was very young. It just became natural for me to pick up from them. After meeting my wife (now of 39 years), and helping out my father in law originally from P.I. with his cocks I have learned even more from him. He passed at the age of 88 and taught me everything he could from reading certain lucky scales, counting flight feathers, matching properly by feather and leg color during certain lunar cycles, to proper alignment of the lk for different leg conditions and style of the cock or stag.

    I must say everyone that I have met that have been in the sport for some time also have something interesting to share. It is never too late to learn a few tricks with gamefowl, I still do almost everyday.

  28. #58
    Member lgf's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ironchef
    The term Medications are absolutely necessary to maintain healthy flocks like vitamins and supplements that also comes in organic over synthetic forms and for protection againsts diseases like the vaccines and immunizations...


    "Drugs" on the other hand, denotes Performance Enhancing substances like the Steroids, Anabolics, Hormonals and Stimulants, used to obviously Enhance Performance...but not without serious side effects and adverse reactions...or consequences with its usage!

    So for me...Yes to natural Conditioning, and medications but no to Drugs!!!!
    I agree with ironchef - We are fighting using long knife and the fight could be over in seconds. Physical and mental conditioning is more important than giving them drugs for endurance and power plus the risk of administering the drug incorrectly is very high. How the cock play the game is in their breed.

  29. #59
    Member gel's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Just my Humble Opinion, If Mr. Wrigley is referring to injectable medication, oral medication, and food additives specially made for Fighting Cocks.


    1. Is it really needed?
    -- I think it is not. But if you can afford it and you really believe that it would boost up your rooster's performance and would give him the extra mile... then go ahead and use it. It is true that you'll be needing all the help you can get to be victorious in cockfighting, and if you do win, I'm pretty much sure that you'll be praising your methods.

    2. Is there any organic alternative?
    -- Maybe there is, but maybe they are not as specific as to the concentrations of those drugs that are scientifically manufactured. The good thing is that there are lots of available chicken feeds out there that are produced just for fighting cocks, if you would check its NUTRIENT CONTENT, it is already formulated with vitamins and minerals. For my case, I'm contented with that... I think that it's more than enough to make my rooster healthy and powerful throughout the fight.

    3. Can a gamecock without medication beat a fully medicated one?
    -- Definitely YES. If your Gamecock is healthy, raised with TLC, matched evenly, gaffed properly, and released accordingly... oh my! It will just come down to which Gamecock delivers the most fatal blow, or the first fatal blow. You may win... you may lose, your gamecock got hit on a major artery, then blood will drip.. if it does not get hit... then none of its blood will be shed...

    4. Are medications overrated by its Manufacturers when it comes to Advertisements?
    --Maybe some. But this is just common nowadays... Cockfighting Industry is a huge business oppurtunity, people can get filthy rich...

    Just a cute Story to share:
    A Filipino Hall of Famer in Gamefowl breeding asked my nutritionist friend to make a special pill for his gamefowls, being hesitant to make such a pill he went to his warehouse and filled some empty drug capsules with dusts and spider webs which he collected, and then later gave it to the Breeder. A few days later that Breeder Won a Big Derby and was asking my friend to make more of that magical pill. My friend finally told him that "you've won because of your good breed of chickens that are properly raised, but not from my pills which contains nothing but spider webs and dusts... "

    a pleasant evening to everyone.
    Last edited by gel; July 27th, 2009 at 03:37 AM.

  30. #60
    Senior Member wrigleycanada's Avatar
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    Re: medication; is it really needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by gel
    Just my Humble Opinion, If Mr. Wrigley is referring to injectable medication, oral medication, and food additives specially made for Fighting Cocks.


    Just a cute Story to share:
    A Filipino Hall of Famer in Gamefowl breeding asked my nutritionist friend to make a special pill for his gamefowls, being hesitant to make such a pill he went to his warehouse and filled some empty drug capsules with dusts and spider webs which he collected, and then later gave it to the Breeder. A few days later that Breeder Won a Big Derby and was asking my friend to make more of that magical pill. My friend finally told him that "you've won because of your good breed of chickens that are properly raised, but not from my pills which contains nothing but spider webs and dusts... "

    a pleasant evening to everyone.
    Thanks mate gel for your input. I remember buying a cock from a breeder which have good record in winnings. I asked him what is the condition of his cock. He told me that it is pre-conditioned. Meaning that no medication was admisitered to the chicken. Instead of sparring it I rely on him telling me that the bloodline is good winning line. We brought it directly to the cockpit without even sparring and fight it in one cock ulutan,. For sure in one cock ulutan, the chickens being fought were all medicated. To tell the story short, the pre-condinioned cock won convincingly against maybe a very well medicated chicken. What am I referring at? medication is not needed in cockfighting. Just good bloodline, cutting ability and natural conditioning. The medication may alter your chickens performance and senses.

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