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Thread: origin of bates hatches.

  
  1. #1
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    origin of bates hatches.

    Hello fellow sabungero..anybody could share with me the blood
    origin of this chicken coming from the late richard bate's hatch.

  2. #2
    Senior Member INCUBUS06's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    always wondered why kemper marley's name never rarely gets mentioned ? when talking about those hatches.. the double lefts

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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    okay bro. could tell me more about marleys in connection with this hatch blood?

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    Senior Member blackdeath's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Quote Originally Posted by fearnone74
    okay bro. could tell me more about marleys in connection with this hatch blood?
    it is not a pretty story.

  5. #5
    Member frontier's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Please tell.................

  6. #6
    Senior Member Nortacs's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    are these bates hatches in a way related to bates greys???

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    Senior Member chad123's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    I'm inclined to believe they are a lot of the bates come blue legged I believe this comes from the greys

  8. #8
    Member timtaboo's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    I heard that the hens that made the first mating that produced the double lefts were from kemper Marley,half kelso half hatch.my dad family has had them over forty years,still solid.
    Last edited by timtaboo; May 31st, 2014 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Misspell

  9. #9
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    I sure wish someone that knows the story would tell it !

  10. #10
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    up up up please tell the kemper marley story!

  11. #11
    Member ridgerunner 2000's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    I will say this much. Richard had the hatch long before he went to work for Kemper Marley following his divorce and moving to Arizona.

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  13. #12
    Senior Member chad123's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    ill tell what i know this came from Bill Baumgardner he said the original double lefts were a blend of blueface,kelso, and grey to what degrees i dont recall

  14. #13
    Member bigfeather's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    The famous King Richard broodcock is a Mclean High Action Hatch if i am not mistaken.

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  16. #14
    Member timtaboo's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    A guy that worked for Richard bates told my dad that the double lefts were out of a Johnny Mitchell 3/4blueface,1/4madigin grey cock over 1/2hatch1/2 kelso hens from kemper Marley.richard bates has been to my my dad and uncles place and knew them both.i believe told them the same.i will ask him if Richard also told him that,he has had them for over 40 years.

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    Senior Member Nortacs's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    as I see it nowadays, the bates hatches looks more like there is a black fowl infusion in them. I wonder if somebody has cared to ask Richard bates before he died?

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  19. #16
    Member timtaboo's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Just came back from visiting my dad,asked him about the double left hatch.he got his from a friend from our hometown who worked for bates and also a partner bought some double lefts from bates.one was a spangle nine time winner.the original sire was a 3/4 blueface,1/4 madigin green leg grey of Percy flowers blood from Eddie gooch.had posted earlier that it was from Johnny Mitchell but that was wrong, had got the names mixed up.hens were hatch/kelso from kemper Marley.you won't find better hatch,they are explosive,vicious birds with big football bodies and most have pale to light red heads from the blueface in them.80-90% pea comb and high strung when pure.but bates I'm sure already had hatch before he created these,which always adds confusion to a breeds makeup.guys that knew him also said bates did a lot of experimenting with his birds at home,testing them and their crosses a lot especially for gameness.he knew exactly what he had usually before stepping in the pit.
    Last edited by timtaboo; June 28th, 2014 at 02:59 AM. Reason: Forgot details

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  21. #17
    Senior Member DesertRat's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    same Hatch ( Double Lefts ) as used by Lonnie and Oscar.

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  23. #18
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Up for more comment to this thread

  24. #19
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    I read somewhere on this site that kemper Marley had gilmores straight from lum Gilmore.so maybe the double lefts have some Gilmore blood in them.anyone know for sure what hatch was in the hatch/kelso hens that bates used to breed the first double lefts?

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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Quote Originally Posted by timtaboo View Post
    I read somewhere on this site that kemper Marley had gilmores straight from lum Gilmore.so maybe the double lefts have some Gilmore blood in them.anyone know for sure what hatch was in the hatch/kelso hens that bates used to breed the first double lefts?
    If you look at history anything that came from Sweater Mcguiness to Percy Flowers the common denominators was a little bit of hatch blood, leiper and tons of grey blood. That was his favorite cross. Blue face which they called hatch really was 3/4 grey and 1/4 hatch. Sweater Mcguiness favorite cross was 1/2 leiper, 1/4 grey and 1/4 blueface.
    Last edited by lurena; February 1st, 2015 at 05:41 AM.

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  27. #21
    Member timtaboo's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Percy flowers told marion rose and john mceldrey,who both worked for Percy flowers,that the base blood of his blueface were hatch blood that he bought from mr. Hatch's nephew after mr. Hatch died...marion rose worked for Percy when sweater arrived and said that sweaters base blood for his blueface came from Percy not the other way around.i don't doubt that Percy's blueface contained the grey blood,and yes 1/2 leiper 1/4 grey 1/4 blueface was their favorite cross from what John said.he said that 1/2 of the blueface made them a little too low headed.my father was good friends with marion rose and john and this was straight from their mouths.

  28. #22
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Bates country walked cocks for Percy when he was a kid along with Maynard Cash. The first year the pair country walked cocks for Percy all but two were killed by Percy's black driver b/c they were dung hill . Percy did this on purpose just to test the boys. Still paid them $5 a piece for their work. Percy had the best birds around b/c he had enough money to burn a field full of mules. I know Bates carried his bloodlines but how they were crossed I don't know. I always heard the double left bates were the best. In the 80'ms Cash came back from Tennessee with a McLean cock and he said he left the other one with his childhood friends father which was old man bates. You never got a straight up answer from the old timers but my hatch that I own now are heavy in the blood of this McLean cock. The strongest two hour hatch roosters that I have ever saw set down. I have Marley's PCI yellowleg hatch that dominated copperstate in early 90's. I call these sweater killers b/c that's what they do.

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  30. #23
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Triple c I knew Mr Maynard all my life he was a good old man. He use to fight at some local pits around here with Mr Skip

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    I see a lot of history which is great but has little to do with what they do now. I'd like to know what they do. What do they do at an elite level specifically, that's makes them unique?

    Elite for:
    speed, power, side stepping, half step back, breaking, aggressiveness, defensiveness, accurate moving forward or accurate moving back, set you up type birds, run you over type birds, strokers, shufflers, power birds, finesse birds, Bulls eye accurate or hit any where type, wing butt poppers, shuffle up a breast, back hitters and so on. I can keep going but I think you get the picture. What bloodlines a bird has or who bred them 60 years ago describes nothing of what they DO at an ELITE level. Commentators of MMA and boxing have been describing fighters styles for decades. Why can't we do it in stead of asking for the best. Blending best with best usually gets you nowhere unless you understand WHAT there BEST at.

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  33. #25
    Member timtaboo's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    They do a lot of things well.what first comes to mind is they have as much power and toughness as any hatch but they can fight with just about any bird.they are good shufflers,break well,pretty smart,hit a multiple,real fast lick and are super strong.as far as where they aim their licks,it's all over the body,kind of sweater-type fighting,try to over power you.they can take a ton of steel,and are not low headed like a lot of game,tough hatch.really vicious,fiery birds but they don't duck under.best trait I've seen is that they improve just about anything you cross them on.they have big,round football bodies which I guess helps with making them tough.only weakness is that they will sometimes get stiff if string walked,maybe through inbreeding,a lot of green leg birds will do this,including a lot of regular greys.pure they are also usually high strung and can get a little mean if you aren't patient and gentle with them,again probably from being inbred.they cross great with good white leg or yellow leg lines as this remedies the stiff-legs for string walking and makes better cutters,at least in the line that I know.some leipers have this problem too.fly-pens or big outside pens and they are usually fine.there are a lot of lines out there though and I'm sure each is a little different as bates came up with them close to fifty years ago.
    Last edited by timtaboo; February 1st, 2015 at 12:53 PM.

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  35. #26
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Quote Originally Posted by timtaboo View Post
    They do a lot of things well.what first comes to mind is they have as much power and toughness as any hatch but they can fight with just about any bird.they are good shufflers,break well,pretty smart,hit a multiple,real fast lick and are super strong.as far as where they aim their licks,it's all over the body,kind of sweater-type fighting,try to over power you.they can take a ton of steel,and are not low headed like a lot of game,tough hatch.really vicious,fiery birds but they don't duck under.best trait I've seen is that they improve just about anything you cross them on.they have big,round football bodies which I guess helps with making them tough.only weakness is that they will sometimes get stiff if string walked,maybe through inbreeding,a lot of green leg birds will do this,including a lot of regular greys.pure they are also usually high strung and can get a little mean if you aren't patient and gentle with them,again probably from being inbred.they cross great with good white leg or yellow leg lines as this remedies the stiff-legs for string walking and makes better cutters,at least in the line that I know.some leipers have this problem too.fly-pens or big outside pens and they are usually fine.there are a lot of lines out there though and I'm sure each is a little different as bates came up with them close to fifty years ago.
    Thanks. That was great! One more question. Do they shoot horizontallly or vertical?

  36. #27
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Never seen many at all pure dance,but the crosses most definitely try to get on top,good breakers.id say more horizontal,but not the type to shoot over a bird without touching him...they go for it all out usually.add a lot of fire to their crosses,maybe from the blueface in them...that's a trait of true blueface...get close and destroy.but the double left bates are faster and smarter than the old time Percy type blueface and break better.bates did a great job blending them.

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  38. #28
    Moderator CIGAR's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    if one really wants to know then one would first start with his family history..... he came from a family of cockers.... cigar

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    Senior Member Hatch-Mac's Avatar
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Mr. Marley personally invited Mike Gates to his annual derby at his ranch and proceded to tell Mike and Mike told me, that Kemper went to see Lum Gilmore and bought hatch and then sent them to Tennesee with Richard and that was the start of the Bates/Marley Hatch. I think what I remember Mike telling me is that Oscar, Bob Short, Lonnie Harper, Bamburg, etc...got some of this blood, and that he thought maybe that Oscar had won Copperstate with them?

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  41. #30
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    Re: origin of bates hatches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatch-Mac View Post
    Mr. Marley personally invited Mike Gates to his annual derby at his ranch and proceded to tell Mike and Mike told me, that Kemper went to see Lum Gilmore and bought hatch and then sent them to Tennesee with Richard and that was the start of the Bates/Marley Hatch. I think what I remember Mike telling me is that Oscar, Bob Short, Lonnie Harper, Bamburg, etc...got some of this blood, and that he thought maybe that Oscar had won Copperstate with them?
    Why does,nt someone ask Roy Collins he raised them for those guys and is still raiseing them the Double Lefts.

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