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Thread: clarets

  
  1. #1
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    clarets

    does anyone know the how the diffrent lines of clarets was bred.
    some thank the madigins are white legged while the griffins are yellow however
    when reading some of the claret history it shows where both yellow and white legged blood was added when col madagin bred them.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Clarets were basically Whitehackles with a little grey blood and some Mansell Pyle. The originals were both white and yellow legged. The Griffens are Madigin Clarets bred up from Claiborne hens. H.H. Moore infused some more Whitehackle into the Wheatfield Madigin family to make his family.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; February 13th, 2010 at 07:33 AM.

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    Re: clarets

    thanks mike,do you know what line of wh h h moore added to to make his clarets.

    here is a bit of claret history i have to show the diffrent lines that was used.
    lets hear what evryone thinks.
    duryea whs was made by crossing the kerny brown reds to the yellow birchins.
    clarets from 1909 to 1917
    1/2 duryea wh 1/4 mahoney 1/8 mansell pyle 1/8 gilliam grey.
    1918
    a lowman wh was bred in to the clarets and down to 1/8.
    1918 to 1924
    a cock from mr oconor was bred to the clarets .
    the oconers strain was
    1/4 mansell pyle 1/4 kerney 1/4 dueyra wh 1/8 black brass back and 1/8 black n tan.
    and last in 1927
    a duryea wh hen was used to breed back in to the clarets .

    now if this is true many of the above breeds are yellow leg / white and some that would come both yellow and white.
    there for i think the clarets can come either leg color but can be bred to a certain leg color if desired.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by asc_redsngreys
    thanks mike,do you know what line of wh h h moore added to to make his clarets.

    here is a bit of claret history i have to show the diffrent lines that was used.
    lets hear what evryone thinks.
    duryea whs was made by crossing the kerny brown reds to the yellow birchins.
    clarets from 1909 to 1917
    1/2 duryea wh 1/4 mahoney 1/8 mansell pyle 1/8 gilliam grey.
    1918
    a lowman wh was bred in to the clarets and down to 1/8.
    1918 to 1924
    a cock from mr oconor was bred to the clarets .
    the oconers strain was
    1/4 mansell pyle 1/4 kerney 1/4 dueyra wh 1/8 black brass back and 1/8 black n tan.
    and last in 1927
    a duryea wh hen was used to breed back in to the clarets .

    now if this is true many of the above breeds are yellow leg / white and some that would come both yellow and white.
    there for i think the clarets can come either leg color but can be bred to a certain leg color if desired.
    The man who wrote the history that included the Oconor blood wasn't JH Madigin and was pretty much discredited.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; February 14th, 2010 at 07:46 AM.

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    Re: clarets

    tell me what you know about them mike.

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    Member Goldenbirchens's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    I was told by Ken Kincannon, who has had Dureyas for many years that were obtained by Frithoff that the original Duryeas were a cross between Herisford Yellow Birchens and Herisford Brown Reds.

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    Senior Member slipspur's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by asc_redsngreys
    thanks mike,do you know what line of wh h h moore added to to make his clarets.
    I ain't Mike ( Mike is a virtual bloodline dictionary ), but what I understand about the H.H. Moore Clarets is this... Mr. Moore had the Madigan Clarets & the Lowman Whitehackles... he added the Lowman to his Clarets when they needed freshening up & visa-versa.

    These are interesting if you haven't read em...

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...annedImage.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...nedImage-2.jpg

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by slipspur
    I ain't Mike ( Mike is a virtual bloodline dictionary ), but what I understand about the H.H. Moore Clarets is this... Mr. Moore had the Madigan Clarets & the Lowman Whitehackles... he added the Lowman to his Clarets when they needed freshening up & visa-versa.

    These are interesting if you haven't read em...

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...annedImage.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...nedImage-2.jpg
    The first is the history that I believe as written by JH Madigin, it is the second that is in doubt.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; February 14th, 2010 at 03:22 AM.

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    Senior Member bjnic87's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    slipspur.......mike everett.........hello guys just curiosity who got the best claret bloodlines in philippines?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by bjnic87
    slipspur.......mike everett.........hello guys just curiosity who got the best claret bloodlines in philippines?
    I have no idea, I was only there 10 days, I saw thousands of gamecocks, but very few Clarets.

  11. #11
    Senior Member bjnic87's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett
    I have no idea, I was only there 10 days, I saw thousands of gamecocks, but very few Clarets.
    thank you for your response! about in the states? i would like to acquire some pullets for breeding purposes..

  12. #12
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by bjnic87
    thank you for your response! about in the states? i would like to acquire some pullets for breeding purposes..
    LOL ...the Best? I wouldn't go out on that limb... There are several breeders of Clarets on this site that have gotten good reviews and feedback. Mark Kelley's (Slips) are the only ones I have any personal dealings with. I wouldn't hestitate to recommend them as "Very Good" gamefowl.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by asc_redsngreys
    tell me what you know about them mike.
    Let's take what we know from JH Madigin, the stag was from Hanky Dean and the hen was a straight comb wheaton hen from OConor. Mr. Madigin said he pretty much kept them the same and crosses didn't work so well. Thus he had to inbreed the originals, producing whites and spangles along with the reds. Hanky Dean was known for breeding Mahoney and Greys. The Hanky Dean stag very probably contained both of these bloodlines, thus the Gilman Grey. The Clarets produced whites pretty quick with inbreeding most likely a throwback to the Mansell Pyles which were known for their "bloody heels." Frithoff said the hen was Duyrea, but I once read a letter where it was said that a multi time winner cock from England was bred to his mother producing the Wheaton pullet. It was said that she was heavy in Earl of Derby blood. Madigin didn't say that the pullets from OConnor were sisters, but he did said one was peaheaded and the other straight comb. Many of the Duyrea came peaheaded from the Boston Roundhead in them. My understanding was that the Straight comb one very well have been Derby blood. Herman Duyrea was a race horse man, who spent much of his time in England. Cockfighting and racing went hand in hand and many did both. I can't prove any of this except the words of Madigin himself.

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    Re: clarets

    thanks mike and slip spur,
    i posted some pics of my clarets in the gallery.
    hope yall like them,
    i know i do,lol

  15. #15
    Senior Member reli's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett
    LOL ...the Best? I wouldn't go out on that limb... There are several breeders of Clarets on this site that have gotten good reviews and feedback. Mark Kelley's (Slips) are the only ones I have any personal dealings with. I wouldn't hestitate to recommend them as "Very Good" gamefowl.
    Hello Mike, most of my spare time was spent reading threads in this site to know more about the characteristics of different bloodlines. And as soon as I enter this site, I normally look for any posts you had including Colt39 posts too, as I could gather some good ideas about breeding gamefowl. Anyway, let me continue.

    In regard to “Claret” being the subject of this thread, I would appreciate if you could answer my questions. Have you tried Claret blood infused to Sweater? If so, grateful if you could describe the result. Or if not, which bloodlines --to the best of your knowledge and experience --are blended well with Claret? Hope you don’t mind to answer my questions. Thanks a lot. calvinjfarm.

  16. #16
    Member banogon8's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by reli
    Hello Mike, most of my spare time was spent reading threads in this site to know more about the characteristics of different bloodlines. And as soon as I enter this site, I normally look for any posts you had including Colt39 posts too, as I could gather some good ideas about breeding gamefowl. Anyway, let me continue.

    In regard to “Claret” being the subject of this thread, I would appreciate if you could answer my questions. Have you tried Claret blood infused to Sweater? If so, grateful if you could describe the result. Or if not, which bloodlines --to the best of your knowledge and experience --are blended well with Claret? Hope you don’t mind to answer my questions. Thanks a lot. calvinjfarm.

    sir may I add,, good bloodline to cross with claret suited for LK

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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by banogon8
    sir may I add,, good bloodline to cross with claret suited for LK
    VERY DISCREET ... I like that.
    info Please!!!

  18. #18
    Senior Member bjnic87's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett
    LOL ...the Best? I wouldn't go out on that limb... There are several breeders of Clarets on this site that have gotten good reviews and feedback. Mark Kelley's (Slips) are the only ones I have any personal dealings with. I wouldn't hestitate to recommend them as "Very Good" gamefowl.

    thanks again!

  19. #19
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    Quote Originally Posted by banogon8
    sir may I add,, good bloodline to cross with claret suited for LK
    I haven't tried with Sweater, but did see some made this way in Bacolod. They spared very good. The best results I had when it was legal in the LK were crosses with Hugh Norman Roundhead, Cardinal Club Kelso, Bumblefoot Greys and some high-headed Hatch said to be Blueface(?). They work best with fowl that don't take anything away from them like speed. I really like them bred 3/4 Clarets in most cases.

  20. #20
    Cyberfriends Matt Dunne's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    For the Philipine stye of LK try Sweaters, Grey, hatch, lemon, RH also straight Bred works well.

    Hope this helps
    Cheers

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    Senior Member Engkanto's Avatar
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    Any info on Buzzsaw Clarets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett
    Clarets were basically Whitehackles with a little grey blood and some Mansell Pyle. The originals were both white and yellow legged. The Griffens are Madigin Clarets bred up from Claiborne hens. H.H. Moore infused some more Whitehackle into the Wheatfield Madigin family to make his family.
    Very good info Mike. Thanks for sharing.

    Mike, I have a question about a diferent line of Clarets, the Buzzsaws. I have a very inbred family of Buzzsaws from an older friend who got them from Charlie Eidt some 40 years ago. My friend said that they used to be large birds with long wing and tail feathers, thick and heavy plummage, always YL. The tightly bred family I have now are medium to low station, medium red with white underhackle, yellow legs and peacombed (the rooster looks like Boston Roundhead). Is it possible that this line is geting throwbacks from the original Duryea Whitehackle? Do you know of anyone having this same experience?

    I really appreciate if you can also share some information about this line of Claret.

    Thanks for any info.
    Last edited by Engkanto; February 15th, 2010 at 11:59 AM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member slipspur's Avatar
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    Re: Any info on Buzzsaw Clarets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Engkanto
    Very good info Mike. Thanks for sharing.

    Mike, I have a question about a diferent line of Clarets, the Buzzsaws. I have a very inbred family of Buzzsaws from an older friend who got them from Charlie Eidt some 40 years ago. My friend said that they used to be large birds with long wing and tail feathers, thick and heavy plummage, always YL. The tightly bred family I have now are medium to low station, medium red with white underhackle, yellow legs and peacombed (the rooster looks like Boston Roundhead). Is it possible that this line is geting throwbacks from the original Duryea Whitehackle? Do you know of anyone having this same experience?

    I really appreciate if you can also share some information about this line of Claret.

    Thanks for any info.
    I had a buddy that ordered some of the " Buzzsaw's " & some Blue's from Charlie Eidt... they weren't too bad, but they came big. And yes, t6he Buzzsaws did come Peacombed... I don't think it was because of some blood popping out as a throw back... I think it was due more to an infusion of Roundhead of some kind or another.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Engkanto's Avatar
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    Re: Any info on Buzzsaw Clarets?

    Quote Originally Posted by slipspur
    I had a buddy that ordered some of the " Buzzsaw's " & some Blue's from Charlie Eidt... they weren't too bad, but they came big. And yes, t6he Buzzsaws did come Peacombed... I don't think it was because of some blood popping out as a throw back... I think it was due more to an infusion of Roundhead of some kind or another.
    Thank you Slips.

    My older friend thinks same way. He said Charlie did't explicitly tell him the makeup of his buzzsaws except that their are basically Clarets (but that was a long time ago and his memory now is not that good anymore, he's on late 70's ). He also thinks they may have Boston RH blood added to add bulk to their body without sacrificing speed - they used to be large cocks with wide back and long feathers. Now, the very inbred broodcocks do look like Boston RHs, medium to low station with compact, football shaped body (unlike the sleek and slender looking typical clarets).

    Thanks again!

    yfis,
    Edwin

  24. #24
    Member frontier's Avatar
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    Re: clarets

    cant go wrong with these from Private Collection

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82hX0...eature=related

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    Re: clarets

    yes those are very nice,good style

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