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Thread: Just another KNIFE topic

  1. #91
    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by filamforks
    Looks like Chris was not kidding when he said that they(management of those three cockpits or Cebuano cockers) banned the Surat/Sulat knife because of what its flange could do. I thought that it was a dumb, stupid and shameful reason as it's showing a complete ignorance of what to expect from a knife. The blade is placed behind the leg because it is a proven fact that a rooster hits with his spur and not hit with his front shank. So how would the tip of the Surat flange hit the eye of the opponent? I'll bet my two eggs that when an opponent of a Surat knife is hit in the eye, it's not the tip of the flange that did it, but rather, it is the tip or point of the blade or maybe a pointed or bare spur that did it. And how stupid and dumb it is, also to complain that the single post flange of the Surat/Sulat knife would give more protection to the shank of the rooster? Don't they know that their shank is more protected by a long cotton wrap(sapin) or a leather boot, and on top of that a double rod or flange of a traditional fork knife or a sheet of metal flange of a socket knife? And besides, is it a priority to cut the leg of the opponent, or to hit him where it matters the most(vital organs) within that BIG body?
    But, if the management of those three cockpits will come up with the reason that they banned the Indonesian Surat/Sulat LK because the big "W" is being written in the score board everytime that a Surat/Sulat knife is being tied, then I shut up. It would seem then that this particular knife can dictate what to write, being that "Surat" in Ilocano means write and "Sulat" in pilipino means write, and that's a fact.
    Seriously though, I'm appealing again to the management of those three cockpits to lift the ban on that knife. It's embarrasing.......

    They should understand that a well designed and properly aligned knife will help but it still takes a good cock with excellent cutting ability to win quickly
    Last edited by Rigolleto; February 24th, 2010 at 05:19 PM.

  2. #92
    Senior Member VMT^Carmen's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigolleto
    They should understand that a well designed and properly aligned knife will help but it still takes a good cock with excellent cutting ability to win quickly
    Would that mean we might be breeding chickens that suit fighting these type of knives?

    Because weapons really is the most important aspect of either propagation or eliminating a bloodline or breed. If the end user is super game, and bred to that end, it naturally suited to test it the gaff, just to mention an example.

    Because if there is no weapons there would be likely one or a few type of gamefowl bloodlines, I think...or at least my humble belief.

    I mean do we need to breed chickens that fits to the Indo knife end or our tari bred chickens will do?

    There must be some beter way to or better chicken bred and/or fighting style that is well suited for surat/sulat knife fighting.

    Just posted an open question

  3. #93
    Senior Member SUPREMO's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by redrooster25
    Would someone from our so called experts show us how is it set/aimed? With the videos i saw, there is nothing extra ordinary on those knives to be banned in local cockpits. this is maybe another hype by tari makers/brokers to promote exotic blades for unsuspecting newbies to buy thinking it would give them advantage.
    I have been surfing in the you tube about gaffing and accidentally I have seen this kind on how they tie this knife I will try to search and put the link here...

  4. #94
    filamforks
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by VMT^Carmen
    Would that mean we might be breeding chickens that suit fighting these type of knives?

    Because weapons really is the most important aspect of either propagation or eliminating a bloodline or breed. If the end user is super game, and bred to that end, it naturally suited to test it the gaff, just to mention an example.

    Because if there is no weapons there would be likely one or a few type of gamefowl bloodlines, I think...or at least my humble belief.

    I mean do we need to breed chickens that fits to the Indo knife end or our tari bred chickens will do?

    There must be some beter way to or better chicken bred and/or fighting style that is well suited for surat/sulat knife fighting.

    Just posted an open question

    Good birds win in any weapon. Individual preferences(especially on fighting style)would then differentiate one cocker from the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rigolleto
    They should understand that a well designed and properly aligned knife will help but it still takes a good cock with excellent cutting ability to win quickly
    I'm glad I'm not alone with this way of thinking. Thanks Rig....


    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    Fil,

    Socket knives are not banned in any pit in Iloilo. Not even the Surat at the Iloilo coliseum but in tupadas, you'll find some resistance if you use surat but the Malaysian chin chin (?) is already widely accepted and many underestimate its deadliness.

    I have used surat just once in a tupada and they won't fight against me anymore although they did not ban it. Ilonggos are probably some of the most liberal people when it comes to knives. You can fight in any cockpit for as long as you fight roosters and stags and use tari.
    Thank you S-Max. I am actually entertaining the thought now that Lapu-Lapu was an Ilonggo but moved to Cebu before Magellan arrived, hehe.........

  5. #95
    Senior Member jack_kie's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by filamforks
    Good birds win in any weapon. Individual preferences(especially on fighting style)would then differentiate one cocker from the other.




    I'm glad I'm not alone with this way of thinking. Thanks Rig....




    Thank you S-Max. I am actually entertaining the thought now that Lapu-Lapu was an Ilonggo but moved to Cebu before Magellan arrived, hehe.........

    Sir Filamforks do you have a video how a surat knife is tied filipino style?

  6. #96
    Senior Member SuperMax's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by filamforks
    Good birds win in any weapon. Individual preferences(especially on fighting style)would then differentiate one cocker from the other.




    I'm glad I'm not alone with this way of thinking. Thanks Rig....




    Thank you S-Max. I am actually entertaining the thought now that Lapu-Lapu was an Ilonggo but moved to Cebu before Magellan arrived, hehe.........
    My thoughts are that Lapu-lapu may have crossed the seas after killing Magellan and may have fathered some of the modern day Ilonggos, he he.

    Seriously, I look at the surat/samurai as an effective weapon not due of its design but due to the angle of the blade which is different from what we are familiar with. Many of us have already adopted this and call it libat/duleng but this is the inherent character that makes the surat/samurai dangerous.
    Last edited by SuperMax; February 25th, 2010 at 10:08 AM.

  7. #97
    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    My thoughts are that Lapu-lapu may have crossed the seas after killing Magellan and may have fathered some of the modern day Ilonggos, he he.

    Seriously, I look at the surat/samurai as an effective weapon not due of its design but due to the angle of the blade which is different from what we are familiar with. Many of us have already adopted this and call it libat/duleng but this is the inherent character that makes the surat/samurai dangerous.

    I agree, the angle or inclination of the blade is what makes it a more effective slasher knife, the cutting angle causes longer cuts which instantly incapacitates the rooster due to shock and trauma. In the 20 odd years that I have been using these setting, I found that a rooster who gets hit first with this blade can rarely come back to win from behind. An analogy of this was made a while back by the late Emoy when we had a discussion about this topic. Can not remember his exact words but it went something like this, "Getting hit by the standard fork knife is like having a tire puncture, it will go flat but the car can still be controlled and maybe even driven a few meters. When hit by a Malaysian type blade, it is like experiencing a tire blowout".


    prototypes to be tested on my trip to pinas next month, they are a bit longer than what I normally use:











    Last edited by Rigolleto; February 25th, 2010 at 11:14 AM.

  8. #98
    Senior Member SuperMax's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigolleto
    I agree, the angle or inclination of the blade is what makes it a more effective slasher knife, the cutting angle causes longer cuts which instantly incapacitates the rooster due to shock and trauma. In the 20 odd years that I have been using these setting, I found that a rooster who gets hit first with this blade can rarely come back to win from behind. An analogy of this was made a while back by the late Emoy when we had a discussion about this topic. Can not remember his exact words but it went something like this, "Getting hit by the standard fork knife is like having a tire puncture, it will go flat but the car can still be controlled and maybe even driven a few meters. When hit by a Malaysian type blade, it is like experiencing a tire blowout".


    prototypes to be tested on my trip to pinas next month, they are a bit longer than what I normally use:


    http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...0220108361.jpg


    http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...0220108331.jpg


    http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...0220108351.jpg


    http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...0220108341.jpg
    WOW! Some wicked looking knives! They would surely create a blow out!

  9. #99
    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    WOW! Some wicked looking knives! They would surely create a blow out!

    Not yet decided on the blade's final length and shape, tests will be by trial and error. Plenty of dead rejects as a result, enough pulutan for the boys, hehehe !!!

  10. #100
    Senior Member SuperMax's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Good morning!

    The PAGBA 5 COCKS DERBY at the Iloilo coliseum has just ended with 2 champions. The majority were using 4 inches or longer knives and fights were fast. There may be many reasons such as stronger cocks, right aim and high flyer cocks. I really think, these long knives are here to stay.

    I also saw one knife man always tying at the farthest corner and he scored fairly well. He used 3-1/2 inches knives but I think they were oriented the Malaysian way. I saw one of his cock's victim and the breast was cut wide open- 2 inch wide wound! WOW! Lucky punch?

  11. #101
    Senior Member grey/dom's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by filamforks
    Good birds win in any weapon. Individual preferences(especially on fighting style)would then differentiate one cocker from the other.




    I'm glad I'm not alone with this way of thinking. Thanks Rig....




    Thank you S-Max. I am actually entertaining the thought now that Lapu-Lapu was an Ilonggo but moved to Cebu before Magellan arrived, hehe.........
    he is a boholano just visiting mactan for his fiancee and wedding plans...hehehehe

  12. #102
    filamforks
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    My thoughts are that Lapu-lapu may have crossed the seas after killing Magellan and may have fathered some of the modern day Ilonggos, he he.

    Seriously, I look at the surat/samurai as an effective weapon not due of its design but due to the angle of the blade which is different from what we are familiar with. Many of us have already adopted this and call it libat/duleng but this is the inherent character that makes the surat/samurai dangerous.
    Hahaha.... you know what, I think that that is a more plausible thought than what I was thinking. So Lapu-lapu left therefore the foreign blood saturated the Island so the modern day Cebuanos are heavy on that kind of blood, hehe.... I think that there was no mention on the kind of knife/machete that Lapu-lapu used to chop off the shank of Magellan but, I won't be surprise if it was a "Libat" blade. That could have been then the start of the fear about that kind of knife, haha......
    Seriously, is my understanding about a "Libat" blade correct in any way? It's in my response to sir jack kie below.



    Quote Originally Posted by jack_kie
    Sir Filamforks do you have a video how a surat knife is tied filipino style?
    No I don't sir jack kie. The traditional Fil fork knife is just a tool of the past now for me. I never made it and would never use it no more. But since Augustmoon and Chris said that the "Libat" blade of the Surat/Sulat LK can be placed on the Filipino fork garol, then it should be easily tied and aligned just like a traditional fork knife. If my understanding is right about a "libat" blade, it is the direction as to where the edge is leaning to, is the difference with the traditional settings.

  13. #103
    CyberFriends magic's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    hey guys, you may want to check out in video clips forum under turn up the volume thread of wildfoot...it showed an indonesian knife along with a link in you tube on how it is tied easily and very quick...another video also shows when they tested the knife and its devastating effect...

  14. #104
    Senior Member SuperMax's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by filamforks
    Hahaha.... you know what, I think that that is a more plausible thought than what I was thinking. So Lapu-lapu left therefore the foreign blood saturated the Island so the modern day Cebuanos are heavy on that kind of blood, hehe.... I think that there was no mention on the kind of knife/machete that Lapu-lapu used to chop off the shank of Magellan but, I won't be surprise if it was a "Libat" blade. That could have been then the start of the fear about that kind of knife, haha......
    Seriously, is my understanding about a "Libat" blade correct in any way? It's in my response to sir jack kie below.





    No I don't sir jack kie. The traditional Fil fork knife is just a tool of the past now for me. I never made it and would never use it no more. But since Augustmoon and Chris said that the "Libat" blade of the Surat/Sulat LK can be placed on the Filipino fork garol, then it should be easily tied and aligned just like a traditional fork knife. If my understanding is right about a "libat" blade, it is the direction as to where the edge is leaning to, is the difference with the traditional settings.
    Fil,

    You are right- the angle of the libat is exactly the angle of the Malaysian knife and the surat/samurai. I am now posting the wound that was created by a LIBAT/MALAYSIAN knife tied by an Antiquenio mason who had only 2 fork knives with the libat orientation but has fought 5 winning 4 today at the Leganes, Iloilo cockpit. It was a hackfight and this particular cock that won fought a much bigger and taller opponent.

    http://supermaxpointing.multiply.com...ALAYSIAN_KNIFE

    This can be an eye opener for many of us!

  15. #105
    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by filamforks
    Hahaha.... you know what, I think that that is a more plausible thought than what I was thinking. So Lapu-lapu left therefore the foreign blood saturated the Island so the modern day Cebuanos are heavy on that kind of blood, hehe.... I think that there was no mention on the kind of knife/machete that Lapu-lapu used to chop off the shank of Magellan but, I won't be surprise if it whttp://sabong.net.ph/forum/images/UbbNonCgi/smilies/biggrin.gifas a "Libat" blade. That could have been then the start of the fear about that kind of knife, haha......
    Seriously, is my understanding about a "Libat" blade correct in any way? It's in my response to sir jack kie below.





    No I don't sir jack kie. The traditional Fil fork knife is just a tool of the past now for me. I never made it and would never use it no more. But since Augustmoon and Chris said that the "Libat" blade of the Surat/Sulat LK can be placed on the Filipino fork garol, then it should be easily tied and aligned just like a traditional fork knife. If my understanding is right about a "libat" blade, it is the direction as to where the edge is leaning to, is the difference with the traditional settings.

    Same here filamforks, been using the Malaysian setting since the mid 80's, and I do not think that I will ever go back to the traditional setting. Maybe we should just keep quiet and let this remain a secret, hehehe !!!
    Last edited by Rigolleto; February 28th, 2010 at 07:02 PM.

  16. #106
    filamforks
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    Fil,

    You are right- the angle of the libat is exactly the angle of the Malaysian knife and the surat/samurai. I am now posting the wound that was created by a LIBAT/MALAYSIAN knife tied by an Antiquenio mason who had only 2 fork knives with the libat orientation but has fought 5 winning 4 today at the Leganes, Iloilo cockpit. It was a hackfight and this particular cock that won fought a much bigger and taller opponent.

    http://supermaxpointing.multiply.com...ALAYSIAN_KNIFE

    This can be an eye opener for many of us!

    Thanks for sharing those pics S-Max. Yes, I hope that those cockpit operators in Cebu will see these pictures and see the kind of knife that did it. The Indonesian Surat/Sulat LK is NOT the only knife that can do such devastating wounds.
    Anyway, with regard to those gaffers you saw that have used 4 inches and longer knives during the PAGBA 5 cocks derby, were they measuring the knives to be used on a particular cock? I'm just wondering as to what is their basis in using a 4", 4 1/2", or 5" knife.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rigolleto
    Not yet decided on the blade's final length and shape, tests will be by trial and error. Plenty of dead rejects as a result, enough pulutan for the boys, hehehe !!!
    Rig,

    I'm sure that it's gonna be deadly and pulutan would be bountiful. Wish I could partake in the feast, hehe...
    Last edited by filamforks; March 2nd, 2010 at 03:11 PM.

  17. #107
    Senior Member SuperMax's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by filamforks
    Thanks for sharing those pics S-Max. Yes, I hope that those cockpit operators in Cebu will see these pictures and see the kind of knife that did it. The Indonesian Surat/Sulat LK is NOT the only knife that can do such devastating wounds.
    Anyway, with regard to those gaffers you saw that have used 4 inches and longer knives during the PAGBA 5 cocks derby, were they measuring the knives to be used on a particular cock? I'm just wondering as to what is their basis in using a 4", 4 1/2", or 5" knife.
    I guess there was no basis at all. Most of the knifemen and the owners simply got the longest in their armory and tied them. Often I saw that the knife was longer by about 1/2 to 3/4 inches on top of the curve of the shank going towards the leg. When I inspected the dead birds which were just lined beside the "chicken doctors", most had deep wounds but no wide slashing wounds inflicted similar to that made by the Indonesian and Malaysian knives. In my mind, this new concept of tying long knives strives for a single deep wound that will puncture vital organs and hopefully be fatal.

  18. #108
    filamforks
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMax
    I guess there was no basis at all. Most of the knifemen and the owners simply got the longest in their armory and tied them. Often I saw that the knife was longer by about 1/2 to 3/4 inches on top of the curve of the shank going towards the leg. When I inspected the dead birds which were just lined beside the "chicken doctors", most had deep wounds but no wide slashing wounds inflicted similar to that made by the Indonesian and Malaysian knives. In my mind, this new concept of tying long knives strives for a single deep wound that will puncture vital organs and hopefully be fatal.
    Thank you S-Max. It's much appreciated. Just want to tell you that we have the same interest in watching knives being tied before battle. Aside from watching different styles in tying the knife, I just enjoy watching different levels of anxieties by gaffers in that gaffing room, hehe... And I do agree with you that possible winners could also be noticed in that room. A while back, I had a chance to watch the WSC at the Araneta from the bleachers. It was exciting for the first few fights but, I eventually went to sleep as it was aircon inside. I did not know and still don't know if the public could watch gaffers doing their tricks in the WSC. If the gaffing room was viewable by the public, I'm pretty sure that I did not sleep inside that day, hehe.....
    Anyways, their is no doubt at all that when hit real good by that long long knife, the game is over that quick. I would say though that it is an overkill if the knife would penetrate from the right armpit and comes out on the left armpit. That is not necessary IMHO. But in sabong, to each his own and that's the beauty of it.

  19. #109
    Senior Member VMT^Carmen's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    guys anyone who can make a dozen of this surat/sulat knife..maybe half a dozen it's still a steep learning curve for me....i would like to pre-order to try it out.

    thanks

    PS If you have a tying example posted on youtube or multiply the better

  20. #110
    CyberFriends magic's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by VMT^Carmen
    guys anyone who can make a dozen of this surat/sulat knife..maybe half a dozen it's still a steep learning curve for me....i would like to pre-order to try it out.

    thanks

    PS If you have a tying example posted on youtube or multiply the better
    VMT,
    borrowed from other thread in video clips (turn up the volume)...it's about tying the indonesian knife

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixhHX...eature=related

    and sample video when they tested it...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDGle...eature=related

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    Senior Member VMT^Carmen's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by magic
    VMT,
    borrowed from other thread in video clips (turn up the volume)...it's about tying the indonesian knife

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixhHX...eature=related

    and sample video when they tested it...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDGle...eature=related
    Thanks magic.

  22. #112
    Senior Member aterob's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by VMT^Carmen
    Thanks magic.


    sir VMT,just ask wildfoot he knows a lot about this.i think he's going to use this kind of knife next may WSD.

  23. #113
    Senior Member VMT^Carmen's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by aterob
    sir VMT,just ask wildfoot he knows a lot about this.i think he's going to use this kind of knife next may WSD.
    ok. thanks.

  24. #114
    Member augustmoonknife's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by VMT^Carmen
    guys anyone who can make a dozen of this surat/sulat knife..maybe half a dozen it's still a steep learning curve for me....i would like to pre-order to try it out.

    thanks

    PS If you have a tying example posted on youtube or multiply the better
    I am making this sulat knives just PM me if you decided to order some.
    my sulat pattern is an authentic from my Malaysian friend.

  25. #115
    Senior Member jack_kie's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by augustmoonknife
    I am making this sulat knives just PM me if you decided to order some.
    my sulat pattern is an authentic from my Malaysian friend.

    Sir Mar, when you tie the surat do you use sapin? I saw on youtube a rooster tied with surat without the sapin. Will the rooster limp if tied too tight? or will the blade misalign if tied light?

  26. #116
    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic













    my favorite and still winning for me

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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigolleto












    my favorite and still winning for me
    Henry how was your holiday? we have an entry 2nite at Pampanga Col..JunDizon 3 Derby starts at 7pm..fight no.7,41,61

    live streaming-->http://www.justin.tv/sonic_jammer#r=OAUFtBc~

  28. #118
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigolleto












    my favorite and still winning for me

    Hey Rigs,

    The most important thing here is that you are happy with them, and that you are winning with them. I'm sure though that some gaffers who are so meticulous about the lateral distance made between the base or neck of the blade and the prop toe would have their eyebrows go up upon seeing this knife design. Did augustmoon make these knives for you? Thanks for sharing BTW.

  29. #119
    CyberFriends Rigolleto's Avatar
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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    Quote Originally Posted by filamforks
    Hey Rigs,

    The most important thing here is that you are happy with them, and that you are winning with them. I'm sure though that some gaffers who are so meticulous about the lateral distance made between the base or neck of the blade and the prop toe would have their eyebrows go up upon seeing this knife design. Did augustmoon make these knives for you? Thanks for sharing BTW.

    These knives were based on a knife given to me by a malaysian cocker back in the 80's. These particular ones were made by a knifemaker in San Fernando, Pampanga who I was told is the son of Carding Manaloto. They are only 2 7/8" long, I am thinking of getting some made at 3" and 3 1/4" and see if that length is even more effective on bigger roosters, 2.2 kgs up. What about you, what length do you prefer to use?

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    Re: Just another KNIFE topic

    I would like my opponent to use the "sulat" blade. Even if he beats me 100x, I will still fight someone using this blade.

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