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Thread: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

  
  1. #1
    Senior Member Roberts44903's Avatar
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    How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    I have been getting a lot of questions asking about how to this here it is in a nut shell. This if for a pair but, it is better to use a trio.


    Ok lets say you start off with a pair. You breed them together. Now take the best stag and breed back to the hen. Take the best looking pullet or pullets and single mate back to the cock. Lets just assume you picked only 1 pullet to keep it simple. Now you are at 1 generation line breeding. There might be technical term for it. Select nicest stag to breed back the mom and the nicest pullet to breed back to the cock. This moves into 2nd generation line breeding. Do the process one more time of picking nicest stag and pullet. That moves it to 3rd generation line breeding. Take the offspring out them 2 matings and breed best ones from hen side and best from cock side. Now you have 3 different families. You can breed them back and forth.

    Here comes the tricky part finding someone you can trust to breed them your way. Send them a pair or trio. After 4 or 5 years go back and select some to breed back into yours. Now keep in mind this originated from one pair. When bringing it back from your friends you will using same blood but adding new blood at the same time. The reason I say that is different ground, different water, different soil will bring out different genes so to speak.

    The man i got my Murphys from got them from a feeder for Murphy Heiny. Now this is how he bred them for over 60 years. The difference is the ones he sent to California are bigger and have more white in them then the ones I have or the gentleman we got them from. Now on my yard they are low to mid 4s. The man I got them from on his yard they are around 5pounds. Out in california they are around mid 5 or so. You do not have to be that far away from them. I got some of my blues 4 hours from house. Then I got some only 30 minutes from house.

    If you have anymore questions let me know.

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    Senior Member Roberts44903's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    BUMP to the top so more people will find it easier

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    Senior Member Gallero626's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Bumping to help this post since its really really good!!!

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    Senior Member Roberts44903's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Took me a while to talk that gentleman into sharing this information with me. I just some people can put it to good use. Like I said if any questions people have about this I am happy to answer them.

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    Senior Member slipspur's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberts44903 View Post
    Here comes the tricky part finding someone you can trust to breed them your way. Send them a pair or trio. After 4 or 5 years go back and select some to breed back into yours. Now keep in mind this originated from one pair. When bringing it back from your friends you will using same blood but adding new blood at the same time. The reason I say that is different ground, different water, different soil will bring out different genes so to speak.

    The man i got my Murphys from got them from a feeder for Murphy Heiny. Now this is how he bred them for over 60 years. The difference is the ones he sent to California are bigger and have more white in them then the ones I have or the gentleman we got them from. Now on my yard they are low to mid 4s. The man I got them from on his yard they are around 5pounds. Out in california they are around mid 5 or so. You do not have to be that far away from them. I got some of my blues 4 hours from house. Then I got some only 30 minutes from house.

    If you have anymore questions let me know.
    I'm glad you went to the trouble to explain that lol! I farm my better blood out to trusted friends also... my McLeans are on 6 friends yards from here in Okla, to all over Tx & even Miss... same with my Clarets & Greys... diversify & put birds with guys you can trust.

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    i was just reading a old article from allen fisher on this and he said this man would take a select pullet off the first offspring and pen her by herself while line breeding back to the originals. then 5 years later he would use the select pullet to infuse into the different lines and start the same thing over again. waiting another 5 years to do it. {the feathered warrior, march 1995 titled the water dogs}

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by moseley View Post
    i was just reading a old article from allen fisher on this and he said this man would take a select pullet off the first offspring and pen her by herself while line breeding back to the originals. then 5 years later he would use the select pullet to infuse into the different lines and start the same thing over again. waiting another 5 years to do it. {the feathered warrior, march 1995 titled the water dogs}
    Geneticist say that after six generations apart, that animals are not considered related. This was Allen's way of putting a fresh kick back into his bloodlines without trusting others.

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    i agree mr. mike. also i think he kept the pullets instead of stags is cause offspring take more after the hens which would put you closer to the originals with the vigor.

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by moseley View Post
    i agree mr. mike. also i think he kept the pullets instead of stags is cause offspring take more after the hens which would put you closer to the originals with the vigor.
    He also didn't want to lose genetic material that is passed on, only through the maternal line. ( same as Bobby Boles )

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    in the article he said the man kept is fowl good for 50 years breeding like this. without adding blood. i thought that was pretty impressive.

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    Senior Member Gallero626's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    So when you gusy say put the kick back in you get another pure hen or cock ? and breed it back into youre blood so it becomes pure again??

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    no set you a select pullet off the original stock back. line breed back to the originals with other offspring. 5 years later take a select stag and breed to the hen you held back. then set one of them to the side and repeat the prosess. like mr. mike said after 6 generations they are not related. all you are doing is freshing up your blood without worring about adding from blood from someone else.

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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Boy! I am confused now. According to one guy, I am not related to my great, great, great , grand father. Now what genecists say, is, if you breed pure fowl that has not had the same mother or father in 4 generations, their ICOE will be 0. Meaing their offspring, will not have the same traits. Now according to what Mr. Fisher said, when the man breed the hen back after 5 years, he would still have the same family, but without the same traits. Now do you see the importance of Pure and the importance of a high ICOE. IF you don,t understand what I have said, please don,t ask me to explain it, it would be very difficult, but you can look it up on your PC.

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    Member Bazooka Joe's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Nice post, i think this is called line breeding

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by RayBoles View Post
    Boy! I am confused now. According to one guy, I am not related to my great, great, great , grand father. Now what genecists say, is, if you breed pure fowl that has not had the same mother or father in 4 generations, their ICOE will be 0. Meaing their offspring, will not have the same traits. Now according to what Mr. Fisher said, when the man breed the hen back after 5 years, he would still have the same family, but without the same traits. Now do you see the importance of Pure and the importance of a high ICOE. IF you don,t understand what I have said, please don,t ask me to explain it, it would be very difficult, but you can look it up on your PC.

    i understand mostly what your saying. but i do believe you will have a higher icoe by doing it fishers way than getting them from your buddy. you and you buddy may have different traits you like about a family. also i believe if your fowls icoe is 0 after 4 generations then the fowl was not a true family to begin with. you should be able to breed any cock to any hen in a family and get offspring that have the traits you like. but that is in a perfect world. jmo

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    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by moseley View Post
    i understand mostly what your saying. but i do believe you will have a higher icoe by doing it fishers way than getting them from your buddy. you and you buddy may have different traits you like about a family. also i believe if your fowls icoe is 0 after 4 generations then the fowl was not a true family to begin with. you should be able to breed any cock to any hen in a family and get offspring that have the traits you like. but that is in a perfect world. jmo
    If you start with a trio & only one trio, they will have a inbreeding coefficient higher than 0 because they all came from one cock. It may get very close to 0 linbreeding back to the hen side but there can still be alleles that may pair up from the original cock. Not sure how long it takes to get a number that can be called 0 but I would think it would take longer than the life of the hen side.

    I have to agree with Ray, just because I am 6 generations away from some 5xgreat grandfather or grandmother, that does not mean I can't have any genetic traits passed from them.

    Also, if the fowl are straight bred or pure then they will have some type of inbreeding CO that should be higher than 0 to start with.

    Cousins from different mother & fathers (pairs) will start out with a CO.

    CO is the probability that a trait in an individual is identical, passed on from the common ancestor or ancestor's of the two parents. This does not just stop at 6 generations.

    Your selection will also help in certain genes being identical. You bred a father to his daughter & get a CO of .25. That is a random mating & not a selected one. If you linbered a father to two daughters, one taking more towards him & the other taking more towards the hen side, do you thing that the CO will be .25 in each mating? Wouldn't the pullet showing more traits like her father have a better chance of throwing offspring with more traits like him?

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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Until you make a pure family, the only ICOE you will get is what makes them a chicken. It takes many generations to set traits, and these traits have to be homozygous. and to get a high homozygous ICOE it takes many generations of close inbreeding. If you think you can breed your Kelso to your friends kelso and get homozygous traits, you have a lot to learn.

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    i think we all saying the same thing.

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by RayBoles View Post
    Boy! I am confused now. According to one guy, I am not related to my great, great, great , grand father. Now what genecists say, is, if you breed pure fowl that has not had the same mother or father in 4 generations, their ICOE will be 0. Meaing their offspring, will not have the same traits. Now according to what Mr. Fisher said, when the man breed the hen back after 5 years, he would still have the same family, but without the same traits. Now do you see the importance of Pure and the importance of a high ICOE. IF you don,t understand what I have said, please don,t ask me to explain it, it would be very difficult, but you can look it up on your PC.
    Well I don't know how tight of family you have, but normally a ancestor six generation back would have very little genetic relationship to you. A better chose of words would be " In breeding after six generations apart it would be considered an "Out Cross".
    Last edited by Mike Everett; February 19th, 2011 at 03:57 AM.

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    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    Well I don't know how tight of family you have, but normally a ancestor six generation back would have very little genetic relationship to you. A better chose of words would be " In breeding after six generations apart it would be considered an "Out Cross".
    Mike, did you mean in breeding after six generations or inbreeding after six generations?

    If a guy took the 1/2 Bro/sisters out of the original trio & bred them together it stands to reason that after six generations they would still have a very good chance of having identical genes like the original cock and hen(s) in the trio.

    You said apart so I am thinking you meant a 6 generation (each an out cross) then back to the original trio would be considered an out cross.

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39 View Post
    Mike, did you mean in breeding after six generations or inbreeding after six generations?

    If a guy took the 1/2 Bro/sisters out of the original trio & bred them together it stands to reason that after six generations they would still have a very good chance of having identical genes like the original cock and hen(s) in the trio.

    You said apart so I am thinking you meant a 6 generation (each an out cross) then back to the original trio would be considered an out cross.
    In breeding as in the act of breeding. I've tried to explain this before, but if you bred BxS for (x) generations the longer you breed the farther they get from the original mating. If you bred several lines, each will get farther away from the originals and from each other. It's called genetic drift. If you are selecting individuals the gene pool loses traits because they have less and less alleles to select from and because you can't get all the alleles present in a Breed in just two individuals. The lines may be tighter inbred and becoming more a like in the individual BxS line, but they are drifting farther away from the originals. If you breed back you go back and gain those original alleles. Just because you start at the same point it doesn't mean you end up in the same place. Even if you select alleles they are still paired randomly. If you go far enough they are not considered related even if they started from the originals. Look in some cases in nature they drift so far a part they will not even mate Darwin's Origin of the Species.

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    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    In breeding as in the act of breeding. I've tried to explain this before, but if you bred BxS for (x) generations the longer you breed the farther they get from the original mating. If you bred several lines, each will get farther away from the originals and from each other. It's called genetic drift. If you are selecting individuals the gene pool loses traits because they have less and less alleles to select from and because you can't get all the alleles present in a Breed in just two individuals. The lines may be tighter inbred and becoming more a like in the individual BxS line, but they are drifting farther away from the originals. If you breed back you go back and gain those original alleles. Just because you start at the same point it doesn't mean you end up in the same place. Even if you select alleles they are still paired randomly. If you go far enough they are not considered related even if they started from the originals. Look in some cases in nature they drift so far a part they will not even mate Darwin's Origin of the Species.
    Good post Mike. Genetic drift does happen & that was my main reason for not breeding bro/sis. My thinking was it limited selection & a greater chance of loosing desired traits.

    But, if the alleles are homozygous in the right pair selected, the gene will be identical from the first pair up to the 6th, will it not?

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39 View Post
    Good post Mike. Genetic drift does happen & that was my main reason for not breeding bro/sis. My thinking was it limited selection & a greater chance of loosing desired traits.

    But, if the alleles are homozygous in the right pair selected, the gene will be identical from the first pair up to the 6th, will it not?
    It would be virtually impossible for the original alleles to be that homozygous and to be able to select the combination of alleles that created the originals would be the greatest chance happening ever. The genotype is the list of those alleles no matter the appearance. The phenotype is what we see, it is the sum of all the genes and alleles the "appearance" of the individual. What we are really selecting is the phenotype, and just because they look the same on the outside, doesn't mean they are the same at the genetic level.

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    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    It would be virtually impossible for the original alleles to be that homozygous and to be able to select the combination of alleles that created the originals would be the greatest chance happening ever. The genotype is the list of those alleles no matter the appearance. The phenotype is what we see, it is the sum of all the genes and alleles the "appearance" of the individual. What we are really selecting is the phenotype, and just because they look the same on the outside, doesn't mean they are the same at the genetic level.
    I always thought they were homozygous or heterozygous & no in-between. Fowl that breed true to type would have to have homozygous alleles that will pass on phenotype as well as genotype.

    Knowing the genotype will help with the selection in determining the phenotype. If a person is homozygous for black hair, it will pass on thru generation to generation if it's mate is the same. But, the genotype may help determine how long an individual will keep that black hair lol.

    I have a full head of hair & very thick. My wife's dad was bald in his twenty's as was his dad. My son is loosing hair fast at 24. I will never go bald. The loss of hair goes back generations on my wife's Dad's side. My son got it from one side.

    Would we just blame it on my Wife since my side of the family all have a full head of hair or can we blame it on her great great great ancestor who passed it on thru generations.

    Just imagine if my son's wife's Dad was bald also. His sons would surely be doomed lol.

    Anyhow, we have to be able to breed fowl that have the ability to pass on traits generation to generation in order to maintain them at a given state & breed true to type.

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by colt39 View Post
    I always thought they were homozygous or heterozygous & no in-between. Fowl that breed true to type would have to have homozygous alleles that will pass on phenotype as well as genotype.

    Knowing the genotype will help with the selection in determining the phenotype. If a person is homozygous for black hair, it will pass on thru generation to generation if it's mate is the same. But, the genotype may help determine how long an individual will keep that black hair lol.

    I have a full head of hair & very thick. My wife's dad was bald in his twenty's as was his dad. My son is loosing hair fast at 24. I will never go bald. The loss of hair goes back generations on my wife's Dad's side. My son got it from one side.

    Would we just blame it on my Wife since my side of the family all have a full head of hair or can we blame it on her great great great ancestor who passed it on thru generations.

    Just imagine if my son's wife's Dad was bald also. His sons would surely be doomed lol.

    Anyhow, we have to be able to breed fowl that have the ability to pass on traits generation to generation in order to maintain them at a given state & breed true to type.
    You're right Jim any animal can be homozygous for certain traits, but to be homozygous for every allele and pass it down would be a down right miracle. i could breed two families of pea comb yellow legged reds together and most likely the offspring would have the same phenotype (ak, peacomb yellow legged reds) but their genotype would be different.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; February 19th, 2011 at 10:05 PM.

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    It would be virtually impossible for the original alleles to be that homozygous and to be able to select the combination of alleles that created the originals would be the greatest chance happening ever. The genotype is the list of those alleles no matter the appearance. The phenotype is what we see, it is the sum of all the genes and alleles the "appearance" of the individual. What we are really selecting is the phenotype, and just because they look the same on the outside, doesn't mean they are the same at the genetic level.

    mike you think a brother sister mating will be the closest thing you can do to get the genes to line up. i do but of course selection is the key to get as many as possible to line up. like to here your opinion.

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by moseley View Post
    mike you think a brother sister mating will be the closest thing you can do to get the genes to line up. i do but of course selection is the key to get as many as possible to line up. like to here your opinion.
    There is nothing wrong in making a BxS mating, I just disagree with intense inbreeding. On the subject of this thread the best way to breed fowl and maintain them is : "NUMBERS" breed as many separate pairs as you can economically afford. All the original types will be present and you won't bottleneck and introvertly breed out desired alleles. I say this if you are trying to maintain the originals, but you can take the family anyway you want by selecting the traits you desire in your family.

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    Senior Member Hotcocker's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    Geneticist say that after six generations apart, that animals are not considered related. This was Allen's way of putting a fresh kick back into his bloodlines without trusting others.

    I took the idea from that article, and that is also how i bred my rhs i kept one every year, and when it came time to put it back to the line, id single mate all of them, till after the first time i basically had the original lines and what I called 5 other generation lines.. then i kept the best 2 lines from that and line bred both to the old cock, i think i ended up using generations 3 and 5, they both showed off more of the old cock than the others, the others were good fowl, but these stood out the most.. from there i kept 2 pullets a year aside.. cause i made 2 families and needed 2 to put back the only problem after that is when the original cock is gone, how do you decide where to breed the next cock from, my solution was to pick 2, one from each line, and swap it sides.. meaning line 1 cock went to head the line 2 family, and line 2 cock went to head the line 1 family.. at the time of the old cocks death it was 1 year shy of the year i would have put the kept hen back into the mix, so i did do that, but i chose to not contiue with her as the new cocks i thought had the same effect, so basically i skipped putting it back to the family by the set aside hen that year, which was on year 4 and not 5.. and used her instead at the age of 9 with what i wanted for my next generation brood cocks, this year since she has gone, i am using 1 cock to head both sides that is comprised of as much of the old cock and the last old hen to do the freshining.. been working out fine, i havent had to direct inbreed, the family always seems to improve or stay the same , so thats a good sign.

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Say that I inherit a family of Clarets from an old breeder. They come both yellow and whiteleg, some dark and some alittle lighter. These have been very good for a number of years. Now every time I bred I select the white legged dark ones, because everybody tells me Clarets should look that way. A number of years go by and they are all coming dark and white legged. Do you think they are the same fowl as I started with even though they are related?

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: How to properly breed fowl without adding new blood

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    Say that I inherit a family of Clarets from an old breeder. They come both yellow and whiteleg, some dark and some alittle lighter. These have been very good for a number of years. Now every time I bred I select the white legged dark ones, because everybody tells me Clarets should look that way. A number of years go by and they are all coming dark and white legged. Do you think they are the same fowl as I started with even though they are related?

    no i think they are your clarets. thats why i really took to allens article cause i am more out to select the fowl and breed them the way i like them than my buddy down the road is. like my roundhead i have had 17 years. they are so inbreed now cause i didnt know a thing back when i got them now i have got to add some new blood to them and hopefully will get them better. i know they will change but maybe i can keep their good qualities going.

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