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Thread: Gameness

  
  1. #421
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Everbody wants gameness but ONLY breeds the FAST winners. That aint going to increase gameness in a family. Thats increasing cut into a family.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; January 18th, 2020 at 08:58 PM.

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  3. #422
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Yeah , I read that on here too. It doesn't even increase cut in most families . If a few win on cut , but it's not a trait ... Nothing changes . Without adding new blood or traits , families don't produce different ratios of traits . Winning isn't a trait .

    Gilliam bred for cut , but for 30 yrs they cut the same ... If a family or man was ever gonna prove you could intensify traits through wins ... There you go .

    If ten stags inherit the same traits ... They may all mature different and end up at different levels and some win more .. But they won't produce different than the genes they were born with . In a family of cutters , those rare fowl that win the 6-8 fights and brothers 3-5 ... They won't improve the line unless their traits were different and that just doesn't happen hardly .

    Science is even backing off Darwin's theories about evolution

    Yea, the Darwinian theory is seems stagnant now.
    I watched my mentor for decades trying to “pull cut” out of an old hatch family. I could see it “was never put in there”, but he still tries to pull it out. Hes a great breeder but ive realized if the original breeder never bred for it. Chances are it will never come back or not enough to be effective.

  4. #423
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Just ADDING new blood cut ISNT always enough to get it in there. Same rings true for GAMENESS.

  5. #424
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Sure , there's a blance between can it be added or just getter fowl .. But changing the traits has to happen .

    Weve came 100 times further with dogs .. To the pointing of busting the cycle even . We can see into the depths of dogs without genetics but chickens ain't to deep and feathers get in the way .

    Germans are the master race of dog breeders and that part of Europe. They call grit/ gameness in dogs " hardness" . They improve grit because it's associated with traits in other areas . Alot of dogs retrieve a duck ... But they test the dog in cold water , blind retrieves and after intense training ... Which dogs like to hunt when it's fun and which have t so deep they will pay any price to get to hunt ... They can improve genetics quick like that

    3 pont shooting is like "cut" ... We see the result but it's not a trait . It's tendon/ muscle structure , arm length ratio , form ... And then to win its the adrenaline , endorphins and glands that make those chemicals being stronger .. You can't pass on shooting 3's or cutting unless its because of genetic traits that make it happen ...

    You pamper em , get em ready , equip them to succeed and then if they don't run one time in an hour- ish show they are game ... Not even a realistic plan to judge the depths of them and what they are made of .
    We want horses to run fast (easy).
    We want dogs with a nose and drive (Basically) I know theres more.
    Those are simple in terms of genetics.
    Chickens we ask for at least 20 more traits in ALL fowl. Most people dont even know those traits.

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  7. #425
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    With all due respect, Id never retract from this theory, its not a hypothesis. Its the true essence of what we do when trying to improve or even maintain.

    "Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (18091882) and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce."

    SF

  8. #426
    Senior Member Mossy Dell's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    We want horses to run fast (easy).
    We want dogs with a nose and drive (Basically) I know theres more.
    Those are simple in terms of genetics.
    Chickens we ask for at least 20 more traits in ALL fowl. Most people dont even know those traits.
    This is so true. Gameness itself is complex. It has to be based on many traits including aggression, territoriality, maybe less sensitivity to pain. If it were one gene, it would be so simple. Fowl either have it or are completely cold, but it doesn't work that way.

  9. #427
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by Mossy Dell View Post
    This is so true. Gameness itself is complex. It has to be based on many traits including aggression, territoriality, maybe less sensitivity to pain. If it were one gene, it would be so simple. Fowl either have it or are completely cold, but it doesn't work that way.
    Well Moss, Im going to ruffle some feathers in saying this, (I know what else is new, LOL). Gameness is from lack of pain receptors and smartness is from too many pain receptors.

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  11. #428
    Senior Member Nauvoo's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Well Moss, Im going to ruffle some feathers in saying this, (I know what else is new, LOL). Gameness is from lack of pain receptors and smartness is from too many pain receptors.
    Where do those old green legged Greys n Hatchs fit in, the ones that seem to hardly exist anymore? The more you hit them and the more you hurt them, the harder they came at you. They hardly even got going until theyd been really hurt. Seemed that same pain that caused some to play smart, it spurred these on more than anything.

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  13. #429
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by Nauvoo View Post
    Where do those old green legged Greys n Hatchs fit in, the ones that seem to hardly exist anymore? The more you hit them and the more you hurt them, the harder they came at you. They hardly even got going until they’d been really hurt. Seemed that same pain that caused some to play smart, it spurred these on more than anything.
    I didnt say game chickens had NO PAIN RECEPTORS.

  14. #430
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    Re: Gameness

    Navoo u ever notice some men u hit they get scarred and some men you just piss off?

  15. #431
    Senior Member Nauvoo's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    I didnt say game chickens had NO PAIN RECEPTORS.
    You ain’t gotta holler at me, I can hear just fine. And I ain’t sayin you said those dumb roosters had no pain receptors. Actually what I’m saying/thinking goes more along with your next statement, it has less to do with pain and more to do with heart, pride, resilience, mental state, or whatever it is that spurs them on harder. Same as men, those that get pissed off feel pain too, just as much as someone who gets scared? I dunno, but they ain’t getting pissed for no reason, it’s just pain drives them in a different way, if it weren’t so, they’d just shrug it off and remain cool headed and wouldn’t come back with bad intentions. Just me thinking.

  16. #432
    Senior Member Nauvoo's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Pain is probably the hardest sensation to quantify, since we can’t know at what intensity anyone else feels it from our own individual self.
    Last edited by Nauvoo; January 19th, 2020 at 01:00 AM.

  17. #433
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by Nauvoo View Post
    You ain’t gotta holler at me, I can hear just fine. And I ain’t sayin you said those dumb roosters had no pain receptors. Actually what I’m saying/thinking goes more along with your next statement, it has less to do with pain and more to do with heart, pride, resilience, mental state, or whatever it is that spurs them on harder. Same as men, those that get pissed off feel pain too, just as much as someone who gets scared? I dunno, but they ain’t getting pissed for no reason, it’s just pain drives them in a different way, if it weren’t so, they’d just shrug it off and remain cool headed and wouldn’t come back with bad intentions. Just me thinking.
    I know the kids write in bold to yell. I dont. I write in bold to emphasize what im saying. No disrespect intended.
    Every man and chicken feels pain. Some it creates a “self preservation” response more than others. Some u just “piss off”.

  18. #434
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    Re: Gameness

    Well don't know about others but I remember when I was boxing. I weighed 180 my first fight and there was no light heavyweights there. Buck asked me if I wanted to fight heavyweight. I told him I come to fight. My match weighed 210. The first round he hit me so hard dad said every hair on my head stood straight on end. At the end of the round Buck asked me "did he hurt you"? I said no didn't hurt at all but I seen stars. Any more pain is a 24 part of my life. But I'm pretty game I think as I don't cry or complain "much". Lol. A good birds the same. Just happy to be there.

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  20. #435
    Senior Member Nauvoo's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    No offense taken, I don’t get that caught up in text, just joking about.

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  22. #436
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    It's a state of mind , I've been in some rough ones and many times might could feel warm or kinda know something was gonna be sore but I didn't know anything in that state of mind .

    But , you can drop something just a little on your finger when it's cold or sneak up and punch/twist a guy on the soft part on the back of his arm and it's instant pain that'll make you jump and so dang mad ...

    Pointed cocks or a man that has got his head into the game and accepted he's in for it are both gamer than off the cord ... There's glands making chemicals for gameness just like when a hot woman makes you tingle and get giggly .. It's not so cut and dry
    Funny how people even interpret PAIN differently much less gameness. What a world.

  23. #437
    Senior Member CA whitetoppy06's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    I use bold to emphasize a point too, but am guilty of using it in tandem with exclamation marks..


    gameness is hard to gauge because in my opinion different breeds or families have different kind of gameness contributed from their genetic make up.. don’t forget health, and way of life how they were raised.. (goes for humans too)

    I have a question “hatred for another rooster” type gameness, (variables in degree of this too) but the driving factor is an opponent they can’t coexist with, without trying to rid themselves of its presence.. but beaten to nothing blind and exhausted always a peck and kick in there.. to fight back even when it’s over..

    that’s not the initiative anymore but still giving something, and how many have had the kind that expire once combat was over, the only thing keeping them going was hatred for other?

    is this not enough? Can one not be content to own this caliber, can it not through selection of individuals through rigorous tests reach a higher degree of gameness.. some can’t live long with opponent cause the opponent kills them so fast that you never see what reserve force they can pull from..

    and again endurance/bottom can make a “game” rooster look even gamer.. jmo

  24. #438
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    I cut my leg with a chainsaw pretty good. Dr gave me opiates for pain. I didnt take them for the pain. Most people would.
    I saved them for some good times later with tequila. LOL

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  26. #439
    Senior Member CA whitetoppy06's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    I got hit by a car I took opiates for pain.. not for ribs or vertebrates that turned to powder but the tibula and fibula in three different places was more than I could bear.. it made me “Angry” the kind of hurt that makes you rage into a fit of tears slamming fists, breathing heavy when blood flowed down and bottled up down there huffing puffing.. the opiates calmed me down by reducing my pain receptors.. I wanted to break things. On opiates I was peaceful. But became agitated and abrupt.

  27. #440
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I was 18 and saw a guy put oxygen from a torch in his mouth and then blw it through a cigarette and it made the cherry sparkle . I wanted to try it and a guy turned on the oxygen AND acetelyne for my turn ... It didn't work so I got the biggest hit I could and that time it exploded when I got the cigarette close and broke my jaw , blew out teeth and turned my lips inside out ... Guys watching thought they saw my head explode and were freaked . It didn't hurt either but a few hours later I was hurting after 60 stitches to sew my gums back over my jaw .... I wouldn't have back talked a midget with a rag on my mouth sitting at the ER ... That's the place to bust in and rack up so e easy wins
    . That's the damndest story I've heard in a while. Good thing you didn't breath in when you got close to that cigarette. Would have been Quapaw all over everybody there.

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  29. #441
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    . That's the damndest story I've heard in a while. Good thing you didn't breath in when you got close to that cigarette. Would have been Quapaw all over everybody there.
    Now we know why hes such a wind bag on here.....LOL

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  31. #442
    Senior Member FIRE-RITE's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by Nauvoo View Post
    Where do those old green legged Greys n Hatchs fit in, the ones that seem to hardly exist anymore? The more you hit them and the more you hurt them, the harder they came at you. They hardly even got going until they’d been really hurt. Seemed that same pain that caused some to play smart, it spurred these on more than anything.
    I’ll share a story with ya. One year at a good derby at a well known club a long long time ago I had a Butcher/Claret cross that was a helluva rooster. Well he got matched into one of the top feeders in the US who now lives in Mex. He ALWAYS was I tough out and still is. Anyways the fight started and I cut him all over and pretty deep too. Was ahead 2-1 going into the drag. That’s where things changed....and he whooped me with a better rooster. I learned right then my rooster wasn’t in the same level his was. His could take more than mine could. It was because of the brood pen...Now had I just caught him and killed him like can happen to anyone I wouldn’t have had a good lesson. There’s fowl out there that can flat take a good cuttin and still not show it while in the pit. It takes a real long time for them to go down and more often than not they win. That’s the kind of fowl fowl I like. There at the top of the food chain in the gaff and you will be very consistent as long as you do your part.....oh yeah he had a GL grey/Hatch that time. Tied the derby that day with my other entry.... him and one other...Good Times it was.
    Last edited by FIRE-RITE; January 19th, 2020 at 02:39 AM.

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  33. #443
    Senior Member Nauvoo's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by FIRE-RITE View Post
    I’ll share a story with ya. One year at a good derby at a well known club a long long time ago I had a Butcher/Claret cross that was a helluva rooster. Well he got matched into one of the top feeders in the US who now lives in Mex. He ALWAYS was I tough out and still is. Anyways the fight started and I cut him all over and pretty deep too. Was ahead 2-1 going into the drag. That’s where things changed....and he whooped me with a better rooster. I learned right then my rooster wasn’t in the same level his was. His could take more than mine could. It was because of the brood pen...Now had I just caught him and killed him like can happen to anyone I wouldn’t have had a good lesson. There’s fowl out there that can flat take a good cuttin and still not show it while in the pit. It takes a real long time for them to go down and more often than not they win. That’s the kind of fowl fowl I like. There at the top of the food chain in the gaff and you will be very consistent as long as you do your part.....oh yeah he had a GL grey/Hatch that time. Tied the derby that day with my other entry.... him and one other...Good Times it was.
    First Sportsman incubator we bought, the man gave me several dozen eggs to try it out with, had some butchers in there, came red, spangle and some nearly white. Raised a little pullet with a few specks. Next spring she hatches a clutch on the yard and ends up raising what basically looks like my pure Leipers but white legged and spangle. Ill tempered bird like the butchers were. I fight him and the first pitting he comes out pretty good but looks fairly give and take and then he got stuck good and handle called. When we pull them apart, he’s all kinds of pissed off in my hands and I can’t set him down for trying to turn at me. Little blood in his mouth. Second pitting I release and he meets the other bird on his own score and drives him back into the wall and leaves him lying there in a wreck. I’d say pain pissed him off.

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  35. #444
    Senior Member FIRE-RITE's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Yeah I know what you mean. I just tell people when they think there ahead a lil we just getting warmed up. Lol

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  37. #445
    Member gapman's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Saw sammy fight at sunset have them quit a month later show the same rooster at dook an was a bear.seen it more than one time to lol

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  39. #446
    Senior Member lucasemerson's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by FIRE-RITE View Post
    I’ll share a story with ya. One year at a good derby at a well known club a long long time ago I had a Butcher/Claret cross that was a helluva rooster. Well he got matched into one of the top feeders in the US who now lives in Mex. He ALWAYS was I tough out and still is. Anyways the fight started and I cut him all over and pretty deep too. Was ahead 2-1 going into the drag. That’s where things changed....and he whooped me with a better rooster. I learned right then my rooster wasn’t in the same level his was. His could take more than mine could. It was because of the brood pen...Now had I just caught him and killed him like can happen to anyone I wouldn’t have had a good lesson. There’s fowl out there that can flat take a good cuttin and still not show it while in the pit. It takes a real long time for them to go down and more often than not they win. That’s the kind of fowl fowl I like. There at the top of the food chain in the gaff and you will be very consistent as long as you do your part.....oh yeah he had a GL grey/Hatch that time. Tied the derby that day with my other entry.... him and one other...Good Times it was.
    Them ol big tail hatch can carry the mail!!! They the kinda chickens people will never own anything like that, and a lot, wouldn't know who they was if u told em lololol

    Lucas

  40. #447
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by Nauvoo View Post
    First Sportsman incubator we bought, the man gave me several dozen eggs to try it out with, had some butchers in there, came red, spangle and some nearly white. Raised a little pullet with a few specks. Next spring she hatches a clutch on the yard and ends up raising what basically looks like my pure Leipers but white legged and spangle. Ill tempered bird like the butchers were. I fight him and the first pitting he comes out pretty good but looks fairly give and take and then he got stuck good and handle called. When we pull them apart, hes all kinds of pissed off in my hands and I cant set him down for trying to turn at me. Little blood in his mouth. Second pitting I release and he meets the other bird on his own score and drives him back into the wall and leaves him lying there in a wreck. Id say pain pissed him off.
    Im hoping you have a plenty of his blood in your yard now. He is a real game cock IMO.

  41. #448
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    Re: Gameness

    I fought a 1/2 Canadian mug 1 part Madigan grey 1 part Allen roundhead.he was a blink from a stag do to a fight.anyway.he met a fantastic cock that was already a several time winner.during the fight he lost he's other eye.blind every time i would pit him he would listen for the other bird an would hit him everytime the other bird would get close enough to him or if the other bird would take the bill hold.as the fight went on he cut the other rooster down. He would peck the air every time he was pitted.he won he fight in this manner.he got the count on the short line an he's opponent would not answer back an so was counted out. Well we was using Wortham rules an the other man didn't want to pay.so all who had a rule book showed the ruling an he still refused to pay.well next meeting he shows up an wanted to participate.everyone told him if he would like to show he had to pay me.he payed he debt an ask if i had a bird to meet him.i met him an killed him in the air first pitting i was showing some of the above mentioned bird brothers.in all honesty he was 1 of the gamest birds i have ever seen to this day.

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  43. #449
    Senior Member Nauvoo's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Quote Originally Posted by FILAMEX View Post
    Im hoping you have a plenty of his blood in your yard now. He is a real game cock IMO.
    I don’t have enough of the Leiper blood left to really claim I still have it. I never tried maintaining those butchers, they were pretty decent chickens but very ill tempered. Probably should have tried repeating that mating I suppose but I had my mind set on breeding the same as I had before I got those butchers.

  44. #450
    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
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    Re: Gameness

    Erisheys. We're did you get the Canadian mugs?

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