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Thread: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

  
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    About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    I am just a backyard breeder and having only few heads to maintained, breed and fed.

    I haven't read Hugh Norman book, just "heared it" of some pieces of them from somewhere or even here in our forum on how he breed fighters. So I'd like to have some more detailed "summary" of what was on the book or on how you've understand of what he really meant. And also bout your personal experiences applying his method.

    One paragraph I've copied from other site was this:

    "Hugh Norman, the "Master Breeder", made famous the Rebel Strain of game-fowls. He was one of those breeders who maintain inbred strains and cross them for hybrid vigor (heterosis). To him broodfowls and battlefowls are not the same. He does not fight broodfowls nor breed battlefowls. In this method, the more inbred your seed fowls are, the greater will be the "nick" or hybrid vigor when they are crossed."

    1) Just curious, as to the Mr. H. Norman method, is he really trying to say that a battlefowls produced from two different bloodlines that are highly inbred parents (wondering how inbred it is and blood percentage of going back to parent..) are more stronger, better and has a higher winning percentages compared to those battlefowls that came from parentstocks that are crossbreds or even pure but are not highly inbreds even if it came from a winning lines?

    2)Another thing I'd like to clarify was that, are Hugh Norman method meant - the bloodlines of the highly inbred parents the same (ex..Lacy Rounheads) but are not full-brother full-sister or relative in producing battlefowls? or it should be of different bloodlines of a highly inbred parentstocks? (ex..inbred pure Kelso x inbred pure Lacy RH)

    3) And considering that battlefowls/crossbreds pullets are not use for breeding in his method, does it mean he just produces and always and only have a 2-way-cross battlefowls?

    Any explanations and further clarifications on this are greatly appreciated. Tnx...

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    Senior Member sucess gamefarm's Avatar
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Pretty interesting I would love for someone who has this book to send it to my e-mail I'm always like to read gamefowl journals.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Interesting. I love reading books on breeding, if anyone knows where you can get this book let us know please.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Mr. Norman didn't write a book on breeding. Mr. Harry Parr reportedly asked Mr. Norman to write one but he didn't.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by jepoy View Post
    I am just a backyard breeder and having only few heads to maintained, breed and fed.

    I haven't read Hugh Norman book, just "heared it" of some pieces of them from somewhere or even here in our forum on how he breed fighters. So I'd like to have some more detailed "summary" of what was on the book or on how you've understand of what he really meant. And also bout your personal experiences applying his method.

    One paragraph I've copied from other site was this:

    "Hugh Norman, the "Master Breeder", made famous the Rebel Strain of game-fowls. He was one of those breeders who maintain inbred strains and cross them for hybrid vigor (heterosis). To him broodfowls and battlefowls are not the same. He does not fight broodfowls nor breed battlefowls. In this method, the more inbred your seed fowls are, the greater will be the "nick" or hybrid vigor when they are crossed."

    1) Just curious, as to the Mr. H. Norman method, is he really trying to say that a battlefowls produced from two different bloodlines that are highly inbred parents (wondering how inbred it is and blood percentage of going back to parent..) are more stronger, better and has a higher winning percentages compared to those battlefowls that came from parentstocks that are crossbreds or even pure but are not highly inbreds even if it came from a winning lines?

    2)Another thing I'd like to clarify was that, are Hugh Norman method meant - the bloodlines of the highly inbred parents the same (ex..Lacy Rounheads) but are not full-brother full-sister or relative in producing battlefowls? or it should be of different bloodlines of a highly inbred parentstocks? (ex..inbred pure Kelso x inbred pure Lacy RH)

    3) And considering that battlefowls/crossbreds pullets are not use for breeding in his method, does it mean he just produces and always and only have a 2-way-cross battlefowls?

    Any explanations and further clarifications on this are greatly appreciated. Tnx...
    pretty much how it was told to me ,that he line bred pure lines very tight and used these deep inbred lines to make battle crosses with 2 way crosses and yes 2 way pullets are pretty much useless ,i follow these methods myself line breeding on the cock and hen side starting with a pair that arent that close but within the same family then breed daddy to daughter then granddaughter then great granddaughter same thing on the hen side and take the best rooster out of that last breeding and mate with best hen out of the last breeding and breed them together and start over .works for me

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    .Are the difference in hybrid-vigor of battlefowls really that big compared to those crossbred battlefowls that are not highly intensely inbred parentstocks?

    will that meant, also...that he ate lots of pullets...coz 2 way cross females are useless to him.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    i went to MR. HUGH NORMANS house in the early 70's and bought brood stock from him.
    i meet his wife [very kind ,nice lady] she fed me lunch that day.
    i spent a whole day talking about breeding and bloodlines he had.
    i got the little Lacey r/h and the rebel reds which were a cross of his lacey and stand wardell whitehackles [the gleason bloodline] then set as a family.
    he belived in maintaining line bred fowl then crossing 2 of the line bred families to make battle fowl.
    he did destroy a lot of 2 way cross pullets as he had no use for them.
    i have maintained my brood stock from MR. NORMAN just like i got them and the way he advised me to do so.
    all my brood fowl are line bred this way to maintain the lines i have.
    then used crossed the way i like to make the show cocks.
    MR. norman was one of the top breeders of his day.
    he could amaze you with the knowledge about breeding a good line bred family of gamefowl.
    meeting and spending the day with him was one of the high lites of my time in this sport.
    we walked all over his yard looking at brood pens ,battle cocks and he explained and answered all my silly questions as best he could.
    he was one of the greats that is a fact!
    yfis

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott View Post
    he belived in maintaining line bred fowl then crossing 2 of the line bred families to make battle fowl.

    i have maintained my brood stock from MR. NORMAN just like i got them and the way he advised me to do so.
    all my brood fowl are line bred this way to maintain the lines i have.
    There are various methods of line breeding. Would you describe the method that Mr. Norman advised you on? I think that is what the original post was requesting.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    mr. norman started with 2 pairs that were of the same blood but not brother and sister.
    he breed each pair
    next
    line breed father over daughter
    son over mother
    these were single matings
    next
    take a daughter out of the original father daughter mating and bred back to the father again so on and so on.
    the same with the hen side. son out of each mating and breed back to the hen so on and so on.
    he explained he breed this way for 7 generations
    then he would take a pullet and stag or 2 pairs from each side and mate them together and start a new line or two new lines with these intensely line bred fowl.
    and keep going for as long as you want too.
    this is for brood fowl
    then take a cock and hen or several sister hens[ after you have confirmed that the cross is a success] with the traits you are looking for from 2 of these highly line bred families and cross them to make battle cocks.

    a lot of people start with a trio they buy
    then mate or single mate the same cock over the two hens
    then they start breeding stags and pullets from each hen together
    they call their selves line breeding when actually they are[ inbreeding to some degree] because they are breeding half brother and half sister because both had the same daddy.
    many many people buy trios without thinking about that.
    i will not start with a trio for breeding purposes ,i want either 2 pair that are not brother and sister or even half brother and sister or with 1 pair
    but want the 2 pair or one pair to be out of the same bloodline.
    you can maintain a bloodline several years mating this way.
    all that i just told you was from what mr. norman told me.
    it has worked for me very good.
    breeding good gamefowl is not easy or fast it takes lots of time and planning to maintain and keep them good.
    always select the brood cocks and hens from each mating very carefully and test ,test,test them every generation!
    things can change very quickly in your brood pens if you are not careful.
    keep very good records of what you are breeding and mark everything!
    don't be afraid to cull very close while maintaining your broodstock.
    always try to make better chickens every time you mate them.
    if anyone tells you he raises all aces and dose not have to cull,beware he is full of chit!
    yfis
    Last edited by scott; November 11th, 2011 at 12:42 AM.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Nicely explained and said.

    But I was wondering, Scott, if Mr. Norman also has some kind of rules in producing battlefowls. Did he also applied the power cock x speed hens pairing for making battlefowls? ...or whatever inbred lines it is as long as it nicks when crossed/combined?

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    I have bred my kelso family for 23 years now with out adding new blood. the first ten years or so i did not breed much closer than first cousins. the last 13 years or so i have line bred them . I have found that by testing and selecting the pure stags each year i can stear them in the direction i want. they have become very uniform in performace. I have learned through experiance and observation that this family is usualy best if bred back three to four times back to a individual. i have line bred to 31/32 but usualy find the offspring best at 7/8 or 15/16. Scott , did Hugh have a reasoning for breeding back 7 times. Also what is your experiance with line breding ? have you had good result breding back up to 7 times?
    Last edited by longheel; November 11th, 2011 at 06:22 AM.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Gates View Post
    Nicely explained and said.

    But I was wondering, Scott, if Mr. Norman also has some kind of rules in producing battlefowls. Did he also applied the power cock x speed hens pairing for making battlefowls? ...or whatever inbred lines it is as long as it nicks when crossed/combined?
    mr. norman explained to me that he used proven cocks from one line and hens that were sisters to proven cocks from the other line to make battle cocks,just like making brood fowl.
    i learned that he placed a lot more value on the hens than he did the cocks.
    the stags take a lot of their traits from the hen side.he did not say not to use the best brood cocks in every mating. he just said if you could fine these golden hens and breed them then you had a better chance of reproducing more of these type of hens which would give you a higher percentage of ace cocks!
    he said one golden hen that could produce better than average cocks when bred to even average cocks was worth lots more than a dozen brood cocks to him.
    he said you would not get many in a life time of breeding and you better hang on to them with everything you got and try to produce as many as possible, cause they were the foundation blood you needed to have a very competitive line of fowl.
    he would choose the fowl according to body type such as station and height,fine bone or heavy bone,speed,power and the ability to cut and in the hens the ability to produce cutting cocks that were game with the determination to kill a cock from the start to the finish not waiting on the other cock to make the first strike or move.
    if he crossed 2 line bred families to make battle fowl,he would always bred them both ways to see which mating worked the best.
    example
    r/h cock[ speed side] over hatch hen[power side]
    hatch cock[power side over r/h hen[speed side]
    then test both matings to determine which produced the highest win averages.
    then discontinue the mating which did not produce the best win average.
    this serious type of breeding program is what separates the want to be breeders from the real breeders because it is a long process and lots of hard work!
    yfis

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by longheel View Post
    I have bred my kelso family for 23 years now with out adding new blood. the first ten years or so i did not breed much closer than first cousins. the last 13 years or so i have line bred them . I have found that by testing and selecting the pure stags each year i can stear them in the direction i want. they have become very uniform in performace. I have learned through experiance and observation that this family is usualy best if bred back three to four times back to a individual. i have line bred to 31/32 but usualy find the offspring best at 7/8 or 15/16. Scott , did Hugh have a reasoning for breeding back 7 times. Also what is your experiance with line breding ? have you had good result breding back up to 7 times?
    the reason he told me for line breeding back 7 times was to make sure the gene pool was thoroughly established on both sides of the matings in the original brood fowl before any crossing is done and he said he never bred any fowl longer than 7 yrs as he did not like breeding old fowl.
    yes i have just completed a line of blacks that are bred this way and i am very pleased with the results.they are very uniform in every way.
    now i am ready to cross them with asil .
    this is the way i made my family of blacks
    i started with a line bred law grey brood cock that was breed this way
    then i put him over a line breed black shuffler brood hen also bred this way
    and crossed both lines which resulted in a 1/2 law grey and 1/2 black shuffler
    then i took one of the hens out of this mating that i liked the best
    she had all the traits in her i was looking for such as fine bone ,med high station and would would fight every damn hen on the place.
    now my gold was to make a black line i could cross with asil and keep them lite on their feet and the weight down in order to be able to match them.
    that was the reason for the fine bone trait in the hen [remember i said the stags take more traits from the hen] so breeding her to asil cock and not black cock to asil hen which would give cocks to big to match.
    then i took this hen and bred a multiply time winning mug cock that had been line breed and bred him over this cross hen
    then bred the mug cock backover the daughters and the sons back over the hen for 7 generations to get my black family ,testing every mating to see where i was at.
    this season i will choose my hens out of these with the same traits to bred to the asil cock.
    now i am ready this season to cross asil cock on black hens to get show fowl.
    all three families i used have been line breed for around 30 years.
    and the asil blood i will use has also been line bred since 1970.
    this is just the way i do it ,thanks to mr. norman on some of the best advise i ever got on breeding.
    others have ways of breeding that work for them also
    yfis
    Last edited by scott; November 11th, 2011 at 08:48 AM.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    [QUOTE=scott;3899751]mr. norman started with 2 pairs that were of the same blood but not brother and sister.
    he breed each pair
    next
    line breed father over daughter
    son over mother
    these were single matings
    next
    take a daughter out of the original father daughter mating and bred back to the father again so on and so on.
    the same with the hen side. son out of each mating and breed back to the





    Scott , did Hugh have a reasoning for breeding back 7 times. I would a Also want to know your experiance with line breding ? have you had good result breding back up to 7 times? have bred my kelso family for 23 years now with out adding new blood. the first ten years or so i did not breed much closer than first cousins. the last 13 years or so i have line bred them . I have found that by testing and selecting the pure stags each year i can stear them in the direction i want. they have become very uniform in performace. I have learned through experiance and observation that this family is usualy best if bred back three to four times back to a individual. i have line bred to 31/32 but usualy find the offspring best at 7/8 or 15/16. I then start a new line and continue the process. I prefure hen lines as well . i find it much easyer to select a stag to breed back to his mother. i select him from performance and health, nothing else. I find it is more of a trial and error meathod when line breeding to a cock. When i line breed to a hen i select the best stag by testing all her stags in steel. i then breed the best one to her several clutches. when line breeding to a cock i single mate the cock to several of his doughters. when i test his stags the next year i then breed him to his doughters with the best performing brothers.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    longheel i think me and you are on the same tract as for as breedung is concerned.
    line breeding is the only way i breed brood fowl

    yfis
    Last edited by scott; November 11th, 2011 at 09:03 AM.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott View Post
    longheel i think me and you are on the same tract as for as breedung is concerned.
    line breeding is the only way i breed brood fowl

    yfis
    Scott , i was curious about what Hugh had told you. You said , he told you to line breed to a individual for seven (7) generations. Do you know the reasoning for this specific number. i have most success by going to 7/8 and 15/16. Also what is your experiance as far as line breeding . have you bred back as far as seven times? and if so what where the results?

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Why two pairs? Could you just start with one pair breed back to the hen side and the cock side seven times. After that take the best pullets from hen side cross to the best stag from cock side and start again?

    Aloha

    Diesel
    Last edited by DIESEL2007; November 11th, 2011 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Wonderful explanation, Scott. Thanks.

    Is there a difference in tightly linebreeding a deep game family and a family that is not as deep game? For example, would one family require more culling? Is there a difference in tightly linebreeding a family with a lot of bottom versus a family with very little bottom?

    It would seem to me that linebreeding that tight would require deep game fowl and that a lot of "pit" game fowl would fall apart when bred in this manner.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by longheel View Post
    Scott , i was curious about what Hugh had told you. You said , he told you to line breed to a individual for seven (7) generations. Do you know the reasoning for this specific number. i have most success by going to 7/8 and 15/16. Also what is your experiance as far as line breeding . have you bred back as far as seven times? and if so what where the results?
    the only reason he gave me for the 7 generations was to make sure the gene pool was thoroughly established from both sides of the original brood fowl. yes i have bred back as far as 7 times . that is the way i do it.
    i have followed his advise all these years and it has worked very good for me. i have maintain several families of fowl using this method for more than 30 years and created 2 families of my own using his advise.
    lots of people try line breeding and inbreeding that results in their fowl losing most of the traits that they originally had or were trying to get at the start .
    mr. normans method has keep my bloodlines very close to the original make -up of the families i started with.
    hope this will help some understand line breeding a little better.
    there are other ways to line bred that works just as well.
    this is just the one i chose to use.
    yfis

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by DIESEL2007 View Post
    Why two pairs? Could you just start with one pair breed back to the hen side and the cock side seven times. After that take the best pullets from hen side cross to the best stag from cock side and start again?

    Aloha

    Diesel
    read post 9 and you will see where i said you could start with one pair and do the same thing .i have done it myself
    yfis

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by flarreyeye View Post
    Wonderful explanation, Scott. Thanks.

    Is there a difference in tightly linebreeding a deep game family and a family that is not as deep game? For example, would one family require more culling? Is there a difference in tightly linebreeding a family with a lot of bottom versus a family with very little bottom?

    It would seem to me that linebreeding that tight would require deep game fowl and that a lot of "pit" game fowl would fall apart when bred in this manner.
    i don't think so because breeding this way you are only going to get a set standardized gene pool from both sides of the original fowl.
    no matter if you start with pit game fowl they will be pit game as long as you don't change the gene pool.
    you are not changing the gene pool make up once you have established it because you are not adding any new blood to the line during the process.then it comes down to selecting and[ testing] and culling with each generation to maintain the gene pool with the original traits you were wanting in the family of fowl you are working with.

    if you start with deep game fowl breeding this way then you will continue to have that trait as long as you do not add new blood that is not as game or a lesser degree of gameness i should say.
    the whole purpose of breeding this way is to build the type of gene pool with the traits you like and maintain that in a family of fowl for many generations.
    then by knowing all the traits and characteristics combined with the uniformity in the broodfowl it will make it easier and produce more uniformity in the fight style as well as station,power ,speed ,height and body type when crossing bloodlines to get the type of battle fowl with the traits you are looking for.
    when you use two good line bred families in a cross to make battle fowl they will have that hybrid vigor that people talk about. it seems that the first cross of that new blood introduced into the line bred gene pool is like throwing gas on a fire.
    i am not a scientist or do i have the education to explain all the stuff about genes ,and i am not going to google or research all that chit and try to convince someone i have that kind knowledge. if anyone wants to talk about all that f1,f2, br 549 chit then they will have to talk to someone else. i know several very good breeders that have very little education and have never touched a computer that can breed as good ah cocks as anybody!
    but i damn sure know enough from what mr.norman told me about breeding to have maintain several good lines of fowl for many years and have done well with them.[not world beaters but just good honest fowl]
    always test ,test,test every mating before moving on to the next mating.
    it is easy to change the traits in a family of fowl by not paying attention to your brood pens or what you select to go into the brood pens!

    yfis
    Last edited by scott; November 12th, 2011 at 01:07 AM.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    So Scott, what would YOU do if on the third generation of breeding back, things weren't looking so good? (The fowl being produced were not as good as the fowl you started with)

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Scott, do you think that's the way BRK, did it? Just joking! LOL... Back in the day, nobody would explain how to make good battlecocks, or how to keep blood lines together. That was as secret to them as the keep was or what and how they fed them. From my experience with game fowl, if you aren't breeding like that you're backing up. There used to not be near as many good fowl but I think good breeding practices have caught on to the cocking world. Sorry bout the bad joke Scott.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Game View Post
    So Scott, what would YOU do if on the third generation of breeding back, things weren't looking so good? (The fowl being produced were not as good as the fowl you started with)
    simple i would chop their damn heads off and start with a different pair or from a different bloodline or go back to the last mating you were sure of after they were tested an start from there again.
    no matter whose at fault you or the bloodline you were working with.
    it may be you selected wrong or the fowl were not as good as you thought to start with.
    as i said from the start you can change the total make-up of a family in as little as two matings.
    breeding is always a gamble,this system only cuts the odds way down in the attempt to produce superior fowl!

    but if you stay on your game and select carefully and start with good fowl you can accomplish what you are seeking with this method.

    yfis

    culls are culls and have no place in the brood pens !
    Last edited by scott; November 12th, 2011 at 03:30 AM.

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  47. #25
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason Farms View Post
    Scott, do you think that's the way BRK, did it? Just joking! LOL... Back in the day, nobody would explain how to make good battlecocks, or how to keep blood lines together. That was as secret to them as the keep was or what and how they fed them. From my experience with game fowl, if you aren't breeding like that you're backing up. There used to not be near as many good fowl but I think good breeding practices have caught on to the cocking world. Sorry bout the bad joke Scott.
    hell it would not matter the cocks would not have a chance anyway, he is going to screw them up in the brk milky way process! lol

    but you are rite people are getting better info on breeding today than in the past.

    yfis

  48. #26
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    I believe this is very similar to the floyd gurley method as well.

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  50. #27
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    if someone wants to learn how to maintain or create a line of fowl , the informtion is in this thread. It is a simple as the information already on this thread.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by chickengeorge View Post
    I believe this is very similar to the floyd gurley method as well.
    Really? ....

    Maybe, if someone could also explain here a brief important points summary of the Floyd Gurley breeding method, I'd appreciate it also.

    Anyway, tnx for all the response you guys shared here...especially Mr. Scott. Gosh...you're very lucky, you've personally met/chat/talked to... probably one of the legendary breeder/author in a cocking world.

    I've learned a lot in a very short period of time reading this thread. I was enlightened.

    Again, tnx a lot for your time and effort.

  52. #29
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    I knew Hugh but not real well.Never went to his place only talked to him at the pit mostly at Tojo's pit and at Del Rio.He was super nice and friendly.He was one of the best at conditioning and selecting cocks for and on fight days.I do not know how long he breed the way you all are speaking of.I think it was in the later years that he started genetic breeding.i did not think they got better in the pits in the later yrs but i sure did not see them all fight.He was really in to genectics in his final years.I personally believe that if a cock is not good enough to be a derby cock he is not good enough to breed.Just my opinion.

    C G

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  54. #30
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by ridgerunner 2000 View Post
    I knew Hugh but not real well.Never went to his place only talked to him at the pit mostly at Tojo's pit and at Del Rio.He was super nice and friendly.He was one of the best at conditioning and selecting cocks for and on fight days.I do not know how long he breed the way you all are speaking of.I think it was in the later years that he started genetic breeding.i did not think they got better in the pits in the later yrs but i sure did not see them all fight.He was really in to genectics in his final years.I personally believe that if a cock is not good enough to be a derby cock he is not good enough to breed.Just my opinion.

    C G
    i could not agree with you more. i do not breed any cock that canot win in derby competition. when line bred you do not have the same vigor as a crossed cock. So it usualy takes more of a selection to find one that is brood cock material. That is a minus to this meathod. the plus is when breeding this line bred cock you get offspring that perform much more uniform then when you breed a crossed cock.

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