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Thread: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

  
  1. #31
    Member catchfly's Avatar
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    So... Who out there is maintaining a so called line bred or inbred family, WITH the needed vigor, and always have the stags come out very vigorous?????????

  2. #32
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by jepoy View Post
    Really? ....

    Maybe, if someone could also explain here a brief important points summary of the Floyd Gurley breeding method, I'd appreciate it also.

    Anyway, tnx for all the response you guys shared here...especially Mr. Scott. Gosh...you're very lucky, you've personally met/chat/talked to... probably one of the legendary breeder/author in a cocking world.

    I've learned a lot in a very short period of time reading this thread. I was enlightened.

    Again, tnx a lot for your time and effort.
    I probably should retract my statement....What I meant was Gurley was a firm believer in breeding/inbreeding/linebreeding a couple of different families and then crossing them for his battlecocks just as Hugh Norman did. I do not know if he was successful at it but obviously Mr. Norman was. One thing that I did gather from his book that I found interesting was that he would cross a cock over several hens of the same family and then use the best producing hen or hens to continue with his "Pure" stuff. This would also give him an idea if the cock was a good producer as well based on the performance of the offspring from multiple pens. If the cock didnt produce offspring that performed at a certain level he was discarded.

  3. #33
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by ridgerunner 2000 View Post
    I knew Hugh but not real well.Never went to his place only talked to him at the pit mostly at Tojo's pit and at Del Rio.He was super nice and friendly.He was one of the best at conditioning and selecting cocks for and on fight days.I do not know how long he breed the way you all are speaking of.I think it was in the later years that he started genetic breeding.i did not think they got better in the pits in the later yrs but i sure did not see them all fight.He was really in to genectics in his final years.I personally believe that if a cock is not good enough to be a derby cock he is not good enough to breed.Just my opinion.

    C G
    Charley is right!
    that is exactly why i told them to test everything from one mating to the next. do not move on to the next mating until you test the ones from the last mating. mr. norman told me never to make a mating with fowl that are not proven.
    that was the best advice i ever got !
    breeding chickens is easy!
    breeding a good solid foundation bloodline of game fowl is time consuming and hard work.[and that is the reason most fail at breeding]. they are usually in a big hurry.
    from what i have seen most people just buy what they think is good stuff on hear say and put them together and breed hoping something good will happen!
    they seem to be always searching for those world beaters and never really learn how to bred good cocks ,because they never stay with a family of cocks long enough or put the hard work into them,or to truly learn what they have got.then after a couple of matings if it don't work out they blame the person they got them from.
    now sometimes it is who they got them from because their are a lot of chicken peddlers out their!
    but if you do your homework and don't get in a hurry you can find good bloodines to start wit
    they think if they buy the best or someone gives them the best bloodlines ,then they are going to bred them and start competing in the highest levels of this sport and winning,this rarely happens. it can happen ,but rarely does!
    well as a lot of us know breeding good cocks is only part of it.
    the rest is up to you , everyone has to pay their dues and get hands on experience working with the cocks .
    it's a long way from the egg to the pit!

    when i go on a person's yard and he shows me families of fowl that are uniform in station ,color and size and all are healthy.even with out sparring any you know this man tries to bred the best he can and is ahead of most in the breeding game.
    when i go on a yard and see brood pens with 1 of this kind or 1 or 2 of that kind and they all look like their is no family connection with no uniformity in his fowl, i am not impressed.
    same thing with battle fowl if go thru his tiecord yard and see 1 of this or maybe 2 or 3 of that kind and then the next ones are something else all the way down the line, and you see this happening year after year that tells me all i need to know about his breeding methods.

    yfis
    Last edited by scott; November 16th, 2011 at 12:30 AM.

  4. #34
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    [QUOTE=catchfly;3905072]So... Who out there is maintaining a so called line bred or inbred family, WITH the needed vigor, and always have the stags come out very vigorous?????????[/QUOTE

    most all the best bloodlines are bred and maintained using this method or a very similar method,from the past to the present.
    where do people think all the good old winning bloodlines that everyone is always seeking came from?

    those that are continuously crossing everything they get their hands on will get some good cocks from a mating but not as many as you would by using line bred families, but what happens if they lose one of the original parent stock or they get two old to breed and don't have replacements of that good blood to work with or they have them so crossed up with different families when they have a problem with them, what do you do next?
    where do you turn to or what bloodline in the make=up of them do you go back to and correct the problem?
    most do the same thing start looking again like getting on the different sites and asking [whose got the best greys or whose got the best hatch] for some more bloodlines and trying not to get ripped off or cheated out of their money when buying brood fowl and then go thru the process of crossing them hoping something will work.
    if they had maintained a good foundation bloodline then at least they could have started over with sum degree of consistency and uniformity with some first hand knowledge of what they were working with!
    then if they took the time to listen and learn and with a little hard work ,they would have a lot better chance at maintaining and producing cocks that could win ,instead of wasting time and money looking for them.
    yfis
    Last edited by scott; November 16th, 2011 at 12:30 AM.

  5. #35
    Senior Member clearfork's Avatar
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Scott just curious as to Huge ever doing any brother sister matings... Im left with this option this year on some Round Heads i have been working on thanks to some strays. I have done brother sister matings before and some have been great and some have been real bad...lol

  6. #36
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott View Post
    Charley is right!
    that is exactly why i told them to test everything from one mating to the next. do not move on to the next mating until you test the ones from the last mating. mr. norman told me never to make a mating with fowl that are not proven.
    that was the best advice i ever got !

    yfis
    ***Hey Scott, I really do admire your voluntary efforts to impart what you know about creating and propagating some honest gamefowls with everyone here. I find this kind of topics very interesting as when I grow up, I'll try my luck in raising some honest gamefowls too also.
    With that said, please clarify me on a couple of cloudy things like "start with good broodfowls", and what you have stated and as quoted above about testing from one mating to the next.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but to my understanding, we should start with a good broodcock that is proven in the pit specially in major competition. Would this mean that even if he is a battlecross cock or stag? And, if he was a "GOOD" producer in the 7 years that he was bred to his daughters, grand daughters, and great, great grand daughters, does this mean that his major circuit competition abilities or qualities are also expected from his sons as well as his grand sons and great, great, grand sons? Thanks

    yfis

  7. #37
    Senior Member clearfork's Avatar
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    The traits form the cross or a battle cross should be present and good. as a example... my brother has some Minor Reds the he has had and maintained form many years...the person he got them from got them from Mr. Minor and kept them the same way. Now as pure they are good fowl but not what you would want to fight in a major circuit... they are good breakers, outstanding cutters, very light on their feet. However they lack power and while they are game can not take the power of a hatch or so on if they get hurt. Now you cross them with say a hatch or anything else and the traits they posses is very prominent... they will put seed and cut into anything while having more power and bottom at the same time. The crosses can be fought in any major circuit...

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by clearfork View Post
    Scott just curious as to Huge ever doing any brother sister matings... Im left with this option this year on some Round Heads i have been working on thanks to some strays. I have done brother sister matings before and some have been great and some have been real bad...lol
    he told me the only time he would bred brother and sister [inbreeding]would be if thats all he had to work with or to save a family and then only one time.
    he preferred not too. but sometimes you have to deal with what you got and if they are good strong healthy chickens it can be done ,but don't over do it.
    yfis

  9. #39
    Senior Member clearfork's Avatar
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Well that's where... im at now... of course it comes down to how they come out maybe chopping some heads off. However so far they have always been good healthy fowl and they were from good winning blood lines.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by FILAMEX View Post
    ***Hey Scott, I really do admire your voluntary efforts to impart what you know about creating and propagating some honest gamefowls with everyone here. I find this kind of topics very interesting as when I grow up, I'll try my luck in raising some honest gamefowls too also.
    With that said, please clarify me on a couple of cloudy things like "start with good broodfowls", and what you have stated and as quoted above about testing from one mating to the next.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but to my understanding, we should start with a good broodcock that is proven in the pit specially in major competition. Would this mean that even if he is a battlecross cock or stag? And, if he was a "GOOD" producer in the 7 years that he was bred to his daughters, grand daughters, and great, great grand daughters, does this mean that his major circuit competition abilities or qualities are also expected from his sons as well as his grand sons and great, great, grand sons? Thanks

    yfis
    when breeding fowl always try to chose fowl to improve the bloodline you are working with in every mating!

    start with good brood fowl that have come from pit proven fowl that produce a high percentage of winners in the same family or if the cock and hen comes from 2 different families make sure both sides are pit proven.
    then work on making your brood fowl or your own family the way you want them

    no matter if the first mating is
    example
    hatch cock /over grey hen
    or hatch over hatch
    each side should be pit proven and possess the traits you are looking for.

    you can do this with 1pair or 2 pair or as many pairs as you want to start with.
    remember in one of the earlier post i said i like to start with 2 pair to make my brood fowl.

    remember you are not breeding to get large numbers of fowl like this you are trying to start a foundation linebred family with the best of all the traits you like in them.
    you are concentrating on making brood fowl that have the ability and fighting traits that you want.
    then you have good families to try crossing later if you want.

    if you got two sides of the family going
    example this is to make your foundation broodstock

    first mating cock over hen then
    father over the best daughter that is the full sister to the best proven stag
    then best proven son over mother ,single mating as you do this.
    do this for 7 generations with both sides of the family picking the ones with the traits you like best
    if the cock side is producing fowl with a better win average than the hen side ,then concentrate on breeding the cock side and discontinue the hen side or the other way around in the first 7 generations. there is no need to keep breeding fowl from ether side if they cannot produce winners as good or equal to the other side in the linebreeding method.
    yfis
    Last edited by scott; November 16th, 2011 at 07:45 AM.

  11. #41
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by clearfork View Post
    Well that's where... im at now... of course it comes down to how they come out maybe chopping some heads off. However so far they have always been good healthy fowl and they were from good winning blood lines.
    these are the type of fowl to work with
    you can pair them up with with other families of fowl and linebreed them [single mate and mark every thing ,keeping good records as you test each mating].
    remember to bred both ways
    your cock over the other bloodline hen
    and put a cock of the other bloodline over your bloodline hen to see which works better
    if you want to add new blood try it this way .
    it takes time but will be worth it at the end.
    i will not argue that their are other ways of breeding that produce good fowl.

    this is just one way !

    yfis
    Last edited by scott; November 16th, 2011 at 07:42 AM.

  12. #42
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott View Post
    these are the type of fowl to work with
    you can pair them up with with other families of fowl and linebreed them [single mate and mark every thing ,keeping good records as you test each mating].
    remember to bred both ways
    your cock over the other bloodline hen
    and put a cock of the other bloodline over your bloodline hen to see which works better
    if you want to add new blood try it this way .
    it takes time but will be worth it at the end.
    i will not argue that their are other ways of breeding that produce good fowl.

    this is just one way !

    yfis

    sir, could you post picture of your roundhead?

    are huge norman roundhead lacys?

    tnxs

  13. #43
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    I have had the Hugh Norman fowl for close to 45 years.I have the Lacey Roundheads and the Cripple Toneys. I was helping Hugh gather information about his book on genetics in the seventies. He became ill and never finished the book to my knowledge.To use his breeding methods you have to be a great judge of fowl.He was way ahead of his times. i spent hundreds of hours talking chickens and genetics on the phone with him.

  14. #44
    Senior Member BamaOkie's Avatar
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    I was reading a old Feather Warrior article by Harry Parr. He said on your seed/pure/straight familys, "NEVER be afraid to breed your 2 BEST male/female no matter how close they are". I take that to mean nothing written in stone you just have to try and see what comes of a mating.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    thanks to all that impart some of your knowledge in breeding specially mr. scott. I only have one question to you sir, after breeding for 7 generation and testing them and they are good what happen nxt? what should we do to preserve the bloodline? line breeding again and to whom? or brother / sister mating of the 7th generation? your opinion is highly appreciated sir..

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Hugh had 2 families of Lacys. The first came direct from Judge Lacy in 1928. The other came from a hen willed to him from the Judge when Judge Lacy died. This was the Shelton that Hugh's Cripple Tony line was bred from. Hugh quit his job at Republic Steel in B'ham,Al. in 1956 and moved to his property in Kinsingston, Ga.He kept the 2 Lacy families separate and used each one into the other over the years, but would line breed to hold the lines. One of his golden hens that he spoke of was band # 1000, He bred this hen as long as she lived. He used her line bred son that was battle tested, several years to produce the Cripple Tonys that he sold. He called this cock "King of the Road". These fowl were in the brood pen when he accepted me to the point that he started sharing personal things with me. He later got Cripple Tonys back from me after his were stolen while he was in the hospital. Later on, shortly before he died, this pen of RH was stolen also.
    Last edited by RHman1026; September 14th, 2013 at 07:32 PM. Reason: correct spelling

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