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Thread: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

  
  1. #61
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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    From a couple of letters written by Judge Lacy he had RH type fowl prior to 1915. He died in 1942. During this timespan he swapped fowl with several of his friends that kept and fought RH fowl also. From what I can gather from his letters is fowl were based on the Allen&Shelton RH fowl with Boston RH from the East Coast bred into the later matings. Remember that the Allen & Sheltons ha Boston RH blood in them also. The Bostons came to this country as WH/asil grades.
    I do not want to debate but, the Allens did not contain Boston blood . The Bostons are a different strain per se, The Allens & their offshoots is what I consider Rh's the Allens & Sheltons are one in the same ....look deep

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Some of the Allen & Sheltons were the same but each man had their favorites. Allen had dark feathered, dark legged fowl that he kept the blood in some of the later fowl and Shelton had some pea comb blues. Shelton also used st. combed blood in some of his RH. So, yes we can cordially disagree.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    I first got a Lacy stag in 1976 and bred him to 3 George Wood hens. Found out these hens had Claret blood in them. Wanted pure RH and talked to Hugh about more RH. Same year had a storm and lost first stag and only had about a dozen chicks from him. Then I got the pr. of Lacy chicks from Hugh. This stag was 1/2 Lacy1/2 C. Tony families. Lost pullet. Then in 77 I ended up with a pr. of the C. Tony family of Lacys that were bro/sis. So my breeding program actually started in 78 with the bro/sis. pair and the stag from the pair of chicks. I bred this stag to 2 of the pullets from the bro/sis. mating and culled him and all his offspring. Only used the bro/sis blood. Singled mated all the sisters from them back to cock and bred 2 of the stags back to mother same yr. oon was using blood of 1 hen out of 1st mating everytime I could as she produced the best of all the matings I could make. This meant I would take hens out of the purebred program and place a Hatch cock with them for pit cocks. They were good hens but not what I considered my best.
    I never liked or wanted big fowl. By big I mean anything over about 5.6. so I chose to use the smaller hens if they were good. About 3 lb. I liked the pure RH cock to be around 5.0. I wanted med. station fowl. Long legged fowl can't hit with the same power a medium station cock can. Also I found my best fowl was by breeding back no more than 7/8 one individual. In a tight bred family you could have several hens bred 7/8 to one cock or hen. What really happens is you're breeding cousins and if you are lucky you can use the old cock and hen again into the line if you still have them. You can't make one mating with related fowl and when it don't turn out good say that all inbreeding and linebreeding is bad. But at the same time the best friend a serious breeder has is a sharp hatchet.
    If you select right and have enough fowl to choose from you won't have size problems.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    I first got a Lacy stag in 1976 and bred him to 3 George Wood hens. Found out these hens had Claret blood in them. Wanted pure RH and talked to Hugh about more RH. Same year had a storm and lost first stag and only had about a dozen chicks from him. Then I got the pr. of Lacy chicks from Hugh. This stag was 1/2 Lacy1/2 C. Tony families. Lost pullet. Then in 77 I ended up with a pr. of the C. Tony family of Lacys that were bro/sis. So my breeding program actually started in 78 with the bro/sis. pair and the stag from the pair of chicks. I bred this stag to 2 of the pullets from the bro/sis. mating and culled him and all his offspring. Only used the bro/sis blood. Singled mated all the sisters from them back to cock and bred 2 of the stags back to mother same yr. oon was using blood of 1 hen out of 1st mating everytime I could as she produced the best of all the matings I could make. This meant I would take hens out of the purebred program and place a Hatch cock with them for pit cocks. They were good hens but not what I considered my best.
    I never liked or wanted big fowl. By big I mean anything over about 5.6. so I chose to use the smaller hens if they were good. About 3 lb. I liked the pure RH cock to be around 5.0. I wanted med. station fowl. Long legged fowl can't hit with the same power a medium station cock can. Also I found my best fowl was by breeding back no more than 7/8 one individual. In a tight bred family you could have several hens bred 7/8 to one cock or hen. What really happens is you're breeding cousins and if you are lucky you can use the old cock and hen again into the line if you still have them. You can't make one mating with related fowl and when it don't turn out good say that all inbreeding and linebreeding is bad. But at the same time the best friend a serious breeder has is a sharp hatchet.
    If you select right and have enough fowl to choose from you won't have size problems.
    Thanks RHman. So you actually bred the bro/sis pair and line bred their offsprings back to them to keep your pure H.N. RH's? Do you know if your original bro-sis pair were also from a bro/sis parents? And by the way, how heavy was that cock(brother) when he cocked out? Thanks.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by FILAMEX View Post
    Thanks RHman. So you actually bred the bro/sis pair and line bred their offsprings back to them to keep your pure H.N. RH's? Do you know if your original bro-sis pair were also from a bro/sis parents? And by the way, how heavy was that cock(brother) when he cocked out? Thanks.
    My pair that were bro./sis. came from a mother/son mating. Remember son 3xwinner and mother near 12 yr. old. I asked Hugh about breeding this age hen and he said when this pr. quit producing his best he would change. No one usually got both cock and hen out of this mating. I got both by mistake. Guessing son to weigh 5 to 5 .3 . My cock same size.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    RHman your fowl are heavily inbred...are they high strung at this point?
    I have tried with a lacy family but inbreeding/line breeding made them high strung, flighty and even man fighter very difficult to handle so I stop.
    i have Clarets and due to station I linebreed the tallest stag to the mama and the tallest pullet back to papa, just to see if I can improve the station. I did it twice the station somewhat improves but the stags are borderline man fighter.
    Have you Guys experienced this, in your program to produce "pure" lines, you did inbreeding/line breeding and this kind of problems crop out?!

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stripper View Post
    RHman your fowl are heavily inbred...are they high strung at this point?
    I have tried with a lacy family but inbreeding/line breeding made them high strung, flighty and even man fighter very difficult to handle so I stop.
    i have Clarets and due to station I linebreed the tallest stag to the mama and the tallest pullet back to papa, just to see if I can improve the station. I did it twice the station somewhat improves but the stags are borderline man fighter.
    Have you Guys experienced this, in your program to produce "pure" lines, you did inbreeding/line breeding and this kind of problems crop out?!
    For sure mine weren't manfighters. I won't tolerate them. They leave quick. Don't mind a peck or 2 but more than that, no. Also crazy hens get eliminated. Also hens that lay 4 or 5 eggs then on and off nest tring to decide to set. All this are faults that can be bred into your fowl. Will say in last day of keep expect mine to hit you 1 or 2 times when putting in and out of rest stalls. And they didn't miss the back of your hand, usually. Selection will somewhat control tempermant. Numbers of fowl helps. In a closed flock breeding program you must have numbers and be willing to eliminate everything that is not near perfect every way to keep your fowl in good condition to make competitive pit cocks.
    As for increasing station I found breeding as early as possible in the season and using young stock helped more than anything.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    RHman did I understand you right? Are you saying you fight the inbred/linebreed stag or cock?
    I pattern my program like Harry parr which is quite similar to HN and someone just posted that manuscript was actually Hugh's. So I have my broodfowls to produce battlecross. I fight my crossfowl, I don't fight my broodfowls.
    What about your breeding program do you follow HN's?

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    <p>&nbsp;I didn't do the 7 time linebreeding because Hugh had already done this if he did it at all. We never discussed that in those exact terms but rather just breeding back to your best hen(s) with their proven son(s). The main thing was to single mate every new set of sisters to 1 or 2 of your best pit proven stags. Each yr. I would take a couple different matings and trn them loose at home in spurs. Then would take some of the best matings to the show. If no stag show was available would show against cocks. Didn't expect to whip cocks. Sometimes won early. I didn't fight whole shows of linebred or inbred fowl. I will never believe so called straight bred fowl can whip 1st class crossbred fowl in derbies or mains where you have to fight 4 or more in succession in good competition to win. When I went to a derby for decent money I showed 2 way H/RH cross PIT fowl. Straight bred fowl stay at home on those days. I left out that I usually bred to 7/8 one hen. But I started with 6 sisters out of the original pair. Bred pullets to cock singlemate and bred 2 best stags to original hen singlemated. Next season was when work started. I posted Hugh wrote the book. True, also saw Sanford Hatch's breeding records that Parr owned. I also think Ted McLean and Hugh Norman made Parr who he was. Hugh met Parr at the Florida tournaments. Parr later backed Hugh at some of the tournaments. Hugh told me the first time he saw and matched the Hatch/Clarets convinced him pure bredfowl could no longer win the majority.
    Last edited by RHman1026; February 23rd, 2016 at 02:14 AM. Reason: correction

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    <p>&nbsp;I didn't do the 7 time linebreeding because Hugh had already done this if he did it at all. We never discussed that in those exact terms but rather just breeding back to your best hen(s) with their proven son(s). The main thing was to single mate every new set of sisters to 1 or 2 of your best pit proven stags. Each yr. I would take a couple different matings and trn them loose at home in spurs. Then would take some of the best matings to the show. If no stag show was available would show against cocks. Didn't expect to whip cocks. Sometimes won early. I didn't fight whole shows of linebred or inbred fowl. I will never believe so called straight bred fowl can whip 1st class crossbred fowl in derbies or mains where you have to fight 4 or more in succession in good competition to win. When I went to a derby for decent money I showed 2 way H/RH cross PIT fowl. Straight bred fowl stay at home on those days. I left out that I usually bred to 7/8 one hen. But I started with 6 sisters out of the original pair. Bred pullets to cock singlemate and bred 2 best stags to original hen singlemated. Next season was when work started. I posted Hugh wrote the book. True, also saw Sanford Hatch's breeding records that Parr owned. I also think Ted McLean and Hugh Norman made Parr who he was. Hugh met Parr at the Florida tournaments. Parr later backed Hugh at some of the tournaments. Hugh told me the first time he saw and matched the Hatch/Clarets convinced him pure bredfowl could no longer win the majority.
    RHman, what was Hugh's attitude toward those who bought his Rebel reds as chicks and bred them on? I think those were RH-whitehackle crosses? Did he consider them just battle crosses? Did anyone set them as a strain? I wonder if any still exist or are just called Lacys or bred into Lacy families.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    I think Hugh must have changed his thoughts on breeding at some point because he never discussed the Rebel Reds and Greys other than referring to them as the crossbred cocks he sold for pit cocks. I have read in some of the older magazines about some of these being sold as families of brood fowl. The subject came up one time that I was keeping some WH/RH pullets to breed to a Hatch cock. He got on me pretty hard and told me the 2 way cross was best. Well, the 3 way cross produced some super cocks but most just average. He was right. That is when I started breeding the H/RHs. I knew he taught crossing 2 linebred families for pit cocks and keeping each family pure to carry on the line. For pit fowl he wanted a powerful rugged cock like a tackle on a football team. He wanted the hens to be feminine and streamlined like a ballarina. His discriptions. He didn't like big coarse hens. I don't think Hugh would have called anything by a breed name if it had outside blood in it. Hence the name Red and Grey Rebels. I think the name Rebel came about originally when he partnered with a Dr. Henry Tan in the Phillipines and fought under Spitfire entry for a period of time. This was back in the 50s or 60s.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott View Post
    mr. norman started with 2 pairs that were of the same blood but not brother and sister.
    he breed each pair
    next
    line breed father over daughter
    son over mother
    these were single matings
    next
    take a daughter out of the original father daughter mating and bred back to the father again so on and so on.
    the same with the hen side. son out of each mating and breed back to the hen so on and so on.
    he explained he breed this way for 7 generations
    then he would take a pullet and stag or 2 pairs from each side and mate them together and start a new line or two new lines with these intensely line bred fowl.
    and keep going for as long as you want too.
    this is for brood fowl
    then take a cock and hen or several sister hens[ after you have confirmed that the cross is a success] with the traits you are looking for from 2 of these highly line bred families and cross them to make battle cocks.

    a lot of people start with a trio they buy
    then mate or single mate the same cock over the two hens
    then they start breeding stags and pullets from each hen together
    they call their selves line breeding when actually they are[ inbreeding to some degree] because they are breeding half brother and half sister because both had the same daddy.
    many many people buy trios without thinking about that.
    i will not start with a trio for breeding purposes ,i want either 2 pair that are not brother and sister or even half brother and sister or with 1 pair
    but want the 2 pair or one pair to be out of the same bloodline.
    you can maintain a bloodline several years mating this way.
    all that i just told you was from what mr. norman told me.
    it has worked for me very good.
    breeding good gamefowl is not easy or fast it takes lots of time and planning to maintain and keep them good.
    always select the brood cocks and hens from each mating very carefully and test ,test,test them every generation!
    things can change very quickly in your brood pens if you are not careful.
    keep very good records of what you are breeding and mark everything!
    don't be afraid to cull very close while maintaining your broodstock.
    always try to make better chickens every time you mate them.
    if anyone tells you he raises all aces and dose not have to cull,beware he is full of chit!
    yfis
    Sir,you can use this same method with a trio. One cock and two unrelated hens. You would have 3 familys.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Sure, that is the normal practice that most cockers use and it give you another aproach to a seperate family if the hens are not full sibs. Frankly, when I chose my pure hen, I couldn't afford another one. Also I got the pair at different times, stag in Sept. and pullet the following Jan. And also the young hen was the most perfect I ever saw and could not find another that pleased me as much, so I decided to wait. When I got home I checked marks on stag, they were the same as pullets.
    When I started with fowl, I had seen and studied inbreeding and linebreeding in dogs and cattle and what the consequences would be. Not all specimens of any type of animal can be inbred with success. It mostly depends on the physical and mental soundness of their parents AND grandparents.

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    Setting up lines from one trio

    I love this thread even though personally I am wary of intense inbreeding. Therefore I have a different take on setting up lines from a start with only one trio.

    Keep TWO outstanding stags from each hen. Breed a stag from each hen to the other hen. That's two lines. And not too closely related for my taste, even if the hens are full sisters. Take the other two stags and breed them to their half sisters by the other hen. I don't like full b/s matings but favor half b/s matings.

    Idle the brood cock for a year. Then mate him to his best granddaughter pullets. That's FIVE lines, at least. And without b/s matings or parent x offspring.

    The problem with such plans and all breeding charts is they don't work in practice. What if one hen's sons are duds? What if the cock is, or only fair? But maybe one hen's an ace? Testing offspring determines whether brood fowl stay. And testing tends to radically edit breeding charts. Then some people intensely inbreed and others outcross. Some do both . . .

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    When linbreeding got to remember the "laws" of inheritance. While we may revere our ace broodcock his son is not the best choice to use to hold the line but it would be his grandson that reproduced his qualities best. His first generation son would be much more like the hen in phenotype. He would look like the cock but fight like the henside. Same is true for hen side of line. I found if hen side of your best mating is lost you can't save that line by just linebreeding the cock side. Linebreeding the henside and placing the hen's blood on both sides of the mating will produce pit fowl more like your originals than any other way you can breed.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Tell me what you think, But I have read and truly believe that a stag will inherit 2/3's of his genes from his mom and 1/3 from his dad. Vice Versa for a pullet 2/3 from dad and 1/3 from mom. This could explain why you have experienced the grandson with more of the cocks qualities versus the son. If this theory is correct, it would take you twice as long to pass down genes to a stag from a broodcock than from the hen.

    Maybe this is why people say a good hen is golden, because she passes so many traits down to her stags compared to the father. But I believe this is why it is just as important to find the best broodcock. I think that there are certain cocks that will pass more of their genes down and will even the playing field with the hen. This is what we should probably be looking when determining if a cock actually makes a good brood cock. JMHO

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    When linbreeding got to remember the "laws" of inheritance. While we may revere our ace broodcock his son is not the best choice to use to hold the line but it would be his grandson that reproduced his qualities best. His first generation son would be much more like the hen in phenotype. He would look like the cock but fight like the henside. Same is true for hen side of line. I found if hen side of your best mating is lost you can't save that line by just linebreeding the cock side. Linebreeding the henside and placing the hen's blood on both sides of the mating will produce pit fowl more like your originals than any other way you can breed.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    When linbreeding got to remember the "laws" of inheritance. While we may revere our ace broodcock his son is not the best choice to use to hold the line but it would be his grandson that reproduced his qualities best. His first generation son would be much more like the hen in phenotype. He would look like the cock but fight like the henside. Same is true for hen side of line. I found if hen side of your best mating is lost you can't save that line by just linebreeding the cock side. Linebreeding the henside and placing the hen's blood on both sides of the mating will produce pit fowl more like your originals than any other way you can breed.
    Very interesting.
    I bred mug cock to daughters and then grand daughters and they only started coming right at 7/8. I did this as I did not have a hen.
    When I got the hen side and bred them straight they were good in the first generation.
    I bred Mug cock to hatch hen and they were quite good but not better than the pures.
    Now I have used the hatch cock over the mug hens and I'm so curious to see if they are different.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Who can say for sure what% a hen contributes to a mating? But i'm sure more than 50% maybe up to80%. Your results in breeding is about what I would expect wth you using what fowl you did. If your Hatch cock is the same blood as the hen you used, I expect you to really like the H/M pit cocks. Check the difference in the M/H and the H/M. If your fowl are truely pure, there will be a difference in the way they fight and how much bottom they have.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stripper View Post
    RHman your fowl are heavily inbred...are they high strung at this point?
    I have tried with a lacy family but inbreeding/line breeding made them high strung, flighty and even man fighter very difficult to handle so I stop.
    i have Clarets and due to station I linebreed the tallest stag to the mama and the tallest pullet back to papa, just to see if I can improve the station. I did it twice the station somewhat improves but the stags are borderline man fighter.
    Have you Guys experienced this, in your program to produce "pure" lines, you did inbreeding/line breeding and this kind of problems crop out?!


    Nobody likes working with high strung or man-fighter fowl, those are traits to
    select against.

    yunke8888

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    [QUOTE=longheel;3900106]
    Quote Originally Posted by scott View Post
    mr. norman started with 2 pairs that were of the same blood but not brother and sister.
    he breed each pair
    next
    line breed father over daughter
    son over mother
    these were single matings
    next
    take a daughter out of the original father daughter mating and bred back to the father again so on and so on.
    the same with the hen side. son out of each mating and breed back to the





    Scott , did Hugh have a reasoning for breeding back 7 times. I would a Also want to know your experiance with line breding ? have you had good result breding back up to 7 times? have bred my kelso family for 23 years now with out adding new blood. the first ten years or so i did not breed much closer than first cousins. the last 13 years or so i have line bred them . I have found that by testing and selecting the pure stags each year i can stear them in the direction i want. they have become very uniform in performace. I have learned through experiance and observation that this family is usualy best if bred back three to four times back to a individual. i have line bred to 31/32 but usualy find the offspring best at 7/8 or 15/16. I then start a new line and continue the process. I prefure hen lines as well . i find it much easyer to select a stag to breed back to his mother. i select him from performance and health, nothing else. I find it is more of a trial and error meathod when line breeding to a cock. When i line breed to a hen i select the best stag by testing all her stags in steel. i then breed the best one to her several clutches. when line breeding to a cock i single mate the cock to several of his doughters. when i test his stags the next year i then breed him to his doughters with the best performing brothers.

    I like the system, its the classic 3-4 IN & 1-2 OUT, that has worked for quite a few
    breeders, who maintain at least 2-3 sub-lines of the same family.

    yunke8888

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Very interesting thread - Bump it up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Mother Nature is the most perfect example of breeding pure AND for peformance .... wild animals have it hard , only the strong survive and only the very best get to breed the females ... and it's only in their prime because the young males are constantly trying them ... they breed close , but with infusions from other gene pools now and then ... thousands of books written on something that has been settled for thousands of years.

    The only aspect I think is overlooked is the infusing part ... I see folks still looking for some new cross or thinking there are super chickens out there ... and chasing bad gene pools because it might produce something out of this world.

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    bump.............................................. ........

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    Re: About Hugh Norman breeding method...what's your say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Mother Nature is the most perfect example of breeding pure AND for peformance .... wild animals have it hard , only the strong survive and only the very best get to breed the females ... and it's only in their prime because the young males are constantly trying them ... they breed close , but with infusions from other gene pools now and then ... thousands of books written on something that has been settled for thousands of years.

    The only aspect I think is overlooked is the infusing part ... I see folks still looking for some new cross or thinking there are super chickens out there ... and chasing bad gene pools because it might produce something out of this world.
    I agree that mother hard but there are many cases of closed gene pools in nature that thrives better than ones without take the deer on California island are the biggest in the world out of less than a dozen planted there antelope island in Utah with only four to start the herd second biggest deer coming off there also look at the the animals in New Zealand has almost most the world records with very limited genes to work with
    So pure and limited genes can do it and be great
    Pure means consistent !
    Crosses mean inconsistent !
    Which one is going to be you ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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