Page 1 of 204 1234561151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 6104

Thread: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

  1. #1
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Are there other nuts like me out there who are into cockfighting because of the love for knives and knife installation? I breed or commission breeding and raise roosters and finance entries mainly to be able to tie my knives and test theories on how best to equip the roosters to fight. I stay up and enjoy sharpening my set, or sets and researching the latest technologies for sharpening steel. If no one else is interested then I guess I'm all alone in this.

    Knife talk anyone?

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    162
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    I'm liking that Peruvian knife! DEADLY!
    I feel ya on the knife thing! I'm constantly oiling, sharpening, and generally messing around with blades of all sorts.
    I mostly own several dozen forks but have some sockets even a right leg socket.
    Knives and knife making truly interest me a great deal, something I think I may venture in into the future.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,018
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Found this knife on FB. Bali, Indonesia knife.


  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Indonesia
    Posts
    15
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    hello again mr. jailbird.
    i think ur not alone. i always think to create my own knive, using any base i can find in my region here.

    ive read a topics related to knives etc with mr. glenn spokes a very interesting shapes of tari that could make severe shock (vastly losing blood) so it will kill fast enough, faster than common LK.

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Indonesia
    Posts
    15
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    by the way, how much for a set of fork knives tari (fil-am) 4" with a decent quality, n whom the knives craftsman ur referring to.

    Regards

    Agung

  6. #6
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Hi guys, nice to see you all here. Doubly glad am not the only nut about knives ;-)

    Bapak DagangPuntik, or Pak Agung, I'm glad you are also interested in knives. There are many Tari makers in the Philippines and I have come to purchase from quite a number and over the years I have developed preferences based on standard knives and customized knives. I also have found in my experience that the length and curvature of the knife is very critical. However I am always careful about recommending because the way it is installed plays a very crucial role.

    Here in the Philippines, decent made knives can be purchased for about us$200 (9,000 pesos) per dozen. Those in the business please don't get mad at me :-) I don't sell knives, I just buy and use them. Retail in some stores they sell for p1,200 to p1,500 but I still have to find really good quality knives in a poultry supply store. The ones I tried buying always had some flaws either in craftsmanship and/or metallurgy.

    The important thing is for you to be comfortable with the knife you are using, from it's design, craftsmanship and metallurgy and most especially sharpness - in my observation there are many professional gaffers who do not really understand how to sharpen their knives properly.

    I hope this helps and we can expound on these matters if they interest you and our other knife friends :-)

  7. #7
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines View Post
    Found this knife on FB. Bali, Indonesia knife.

    Sir Camarines, that is an authentic Balinese knife used during their religious ceremonies *** cockfighting. It's interesting but based on the few fights I saw, they take a long time to kill. I heard that some friends brought Philippine knives but eventually were disallowed because they were too much of an advantage versus the traditional knife.

    Our Philippine fork knives are more commonly used in Manado which is very close to Mindanao. There are so many pinoys there. A vessel used to traverse Blitung to Gen San but am not sure if that is still ongoing.

    The Balinese knife is installed close to the spur, and that along with it's length and table knife configuration is unique. But please remember that their roosters were mostly the asil or oriental strains and many fights did not necessarily last to the death.

    Nice picture!

  8. #8
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Determination View Post
    I'm liking that Peruvian knife! DEADLY!
    I feel ya on the knife thing! I'm constantly oiling, sharpening, and generally messing around with blades of all sorts.
    I mostly own several dozen forks but have some sockets even a right leg socket.
    Knives and knife making truly interest me a great deal, something I think I may venture in into the future.
    Hi Determination Sir! Im sure glad to hear from you!!!! Yup there's that great satisfaction messing around with knives and nothing beats the elation when a knife used 3 times (won three times) can be sharpened each time to beat the newly ground knives - and still hold it's point and edge :-)

  9. #9
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by dagangpuntik View Post
    hello again mr. jailbird.
    i think ur not alone. i always think to create my own knive, using any base i can find in my region here.

    ive read a topics related to knives etc with mr. glenn spokes a very interesting shapes of tari that could make severe shock (vastly losing blood) so it will kill fast enough, faster than common LK.
    By the way Pak Agung, there are many videos of Philippine slasher fights posted on this website, and also on YouTube. Tomorrow we fight at San Juan Coliseum's 5 stag derby. Competition there is very tough. We need a lot of prayers and good joss to win - but then again it's the only way to test our knives - hahahahaha! If we win and there's a video I'll send it to you via YouTube :-)

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by jailbird View Post
    sharpness - in my observation there are many professional gaffers who do not really understand how to sharpen their knives properly.
    Jailbird, i am especially interested in hearing more about sharpening knives.

  11. #11
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Hi Good Game, there's a good article written by a certain Mike Casey on sharpening knives. The gist of which is quite simple, that to make a sharp knife you need to grind a "relief" and thereafter grind a secondary edge, until you get a burr.

    Most Tari whether brand new or bagong has a, bagong vaciada have a single grind or relief that ends up with the blade and the burr. That makes for a very thin and therefore razor sharp edge when you remove the burr properly.

    The act is called honing or in Tagalog pagtatagis. So usually we witness gaffers meticulously sharpening their blades prior to installing and that's really to remove the very thin burr. Otherwise if the burr remains it will serve ti dull the edge if it folds over and does not get removed.

    A lot of gaffers overdo this honing and a few actually think that the more they
    slide the knife on a stone the sharper it gets :-) on the contrary, removing too much material "rounds" the edge and eventually makes it dull.

    And even if properly done, and honed just enough to remove the burr, and resulting in a razor sharp edge, the blade, depending on the angle of the grind may not be able to hold it's edge. In short the edge can disappear on first contact with bone, feather or worse, metal or even the soil of the pit.

    The reason is simple, if the grind is the "labaha" or razor type with practically 60 to 80 percent of the blade ground off for a fine razor thin edge, the blade edge is usually so thin it folds, or chips off and dulls on high pressure contact with a hard surface.

    This may be the reason why it is now getting more popular to use a bigger angle grind - konti Lang bawas. Especially on knives made from thin saw blades. It does not give as thin an angle but can hold it's edge better. What I note from these knives is that they hold their edge but lose their point quite easily.



    In ordinary knives the solution is simple, you simply grind a seconday edge after the relief. Grinding a secondary edge makes the blade edge stronger.

  12. #12
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    However the major difference between a Tari and an ordinary knife is the volume and weight of the blade.

    The solution I found best is to use a thicker blade material, grind it to a diamond style blade to remove excess materials from the spine but to leave the point thick. This way, you get the best of both worlds, you can have a thin relief using a 40-60 percent grind, AND hand hone a secondary edge that will hold better than the razor thin edge, and still have a strong point with a bigger angle. ill try to post a picture when I get to find out how to post pictures using an iPad :-)

    I hope I have not talked too much. And this helps. I would most welcome other peoples ideas and solutions. Thanks!

  13. #13
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Indonesia
    Posts
    15
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by jailbird View Post
    By the way Pak Agung, there are many videos of Philippine slasher fights posted on this website, and also on YouTube. Tomorrow we fight at San Juan Coliseum's 5 stag derby. Competition there is very tough. We need a lot of prayers and good joss to win - but then again it's the only way to test our knives - hahahahaha! If we win and there's a video I'll send it to you via YouTube :-)

    cant wait the video sir, by the way about leaving a thick edge that can holds the sharp edge better, the way i see it, wouldnt that be some disanvantage, cuz it will raise the angle n drag point of the knives when it slashing trough the flesh? just my amateur thought sir.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    157
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by jailbird View Post
    I'll try to post a picture when I get to find out how to post pictures using an iPad :-)
    Yes, please post some pictures!

    With your I-pad you can download the "Photobuckect" application from the I-store for free. Then make a Photobucket account and upload media straight from your I-pad. Once the pictures are in Photobucket you can just past the links in your posts.
    Last edited by Good Game; November 12th, 2011 at 10:57 AM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,018
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    There's only three ways you can sharpen the edge of the knife; hollow grind, flat, and concave.

  16. Thanks southernX thanked for this post
  17. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Sarawak
    Posts
    33
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines View Post
    There's only three ways you can sharpen the edge of the knife; hollow grind, flat, and concave.
    Sir Camarines,
    Can you kindly elaborate in detail what do you meant by " Hollow grind", "flat" and "concave". Are you referring to the types of sharpening stones ? If possible, attach with pictures would be nice. Thank you.

  18. #17
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,018
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by COLD STEEL View Post
    Sir Camarines,
    Can you kindly elaborate in detail what do you meant by " Hollow grind", "flat" and "concave". Are you referring to the types of sharpening stones ? If possible, attach with pictures would be nice. Thank you.
    Hollow grind is like in a razor, flat just like in a kitchen knife, and concave like in an axe.

  19. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Sarawak
    Posts
    33
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines View Post
    Hollow grind is like in a razor, flat just like in a kitchen knife, and concave like in an axe.

    Thank you, sir. Really appreciated your respond.

  20. #19
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Game View Post
    Yes, please post some pictures!

    With your I-pad you can download the "Photobuckect" application from the I-store for free. Then make a Photobucket account and upload media straight from your I-pad. Once the pictures are in Photobucket you can just past the links in your posts.
    Thanks Good Game,

    I'll try to download and post some pictures.

    Pak Agung, the diamond style knife made by many Tari makers nowadays has the thick spine at the middle area so that if you cut the blade the cross section will look like a diamond shape. The overall cross section is very similar to a razor style in size or even less because the razor edge usually has a much thicker spine at the back. The razor style was the most popular grind 20-30 years ago.

    Camarines is right to point out the various edges on a knife,

  21. #20
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Hollow gringo or razor style is what most Tari makers use - except those using the thin saw material,the angle of the gringo is steep and it almost is straight to the naked eye. But since everyone uses the grinding wheel, they are probably hollow ground also when magnified. To make the edge stronger, you can hone a secondary edge.


    I just got home with a heavy heart - we only won 1 fight, and only one other knife got a chance to cut flesh ;-(

    There is just so much a knife can do - especially if it's not used - hahahahaha. 1 rooster was instantly paralyzed when his spinal cord got severed at the neck base, the other three got hit on the inner thighs on the first buckle and had no chance to use their knives, and as mentioned only one of them got to cut flesh.

    It's really frustrating when these kind of failures happen, Kasi ni wala man Lang redeeming value. Even during lost fights I sometimes still feel good, when the fight is close and the knives play some role, especially when the opponent is killed by a last minute try from a fatally wounded rooster. But tonight was not like that at all.

    Anyway, next time again.
    Q

  22. #21
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Indonesia
    Posts
    15
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by jailbird View Post
    Hollow gringo or razor style is what most Tari makers use - except those using the thin saw material,the angle of the gringo is steep and it almost is straight to the naked eye. But since everyone uses the grinding wheel, they are probably hollow ground also when magnified. To make the edge stronger, you can hone a secondary edge.


    I just got home with a heavy heart - we only won 1 fight, and only one other knife got a chance to cut flesh ;-(

    There is just so much a knife can do - especially if it's not used - hahahahaha. 1 rooster was instantly paralyzed when his spinal cord got severed at the neck base, the other three got hit on the inner thighs on the first buckle and had no chance to use their knives, and as mentioned only one of them got to cut flesh.

    It's really frustrating when these kind of failures happen, Kasi ni wala man Lang redeeming value. Even during lost fights I sometimes still feel good, when the fight is close and the knives play some role, especially when the opponent is killed by a last minute try from a fatally wounded rooster. But tonight was not like that at all.

    Anyway, next time again.
    Q

    Next time u will be doubled the value gained sir

  23. #22
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,018
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    jailbird,

    Have you experienced having your tari misaligned because the tape and sapin was hit by the opponent's tari? Had that happen to me. Wonder if there is any electrical tape that can protect the sapin from get cut? I know some mananari puts a thin metal string on their electrical tape to cover the sapin. But is there another method. Most electrical tape are vinyl and can be cut by pulling on it hard.

    Should be a good inventor's dream to create a good protection for the sapin.

  24. #23
    Member Giman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Sarawak, M'sia
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Mr. Camarines, I'm imagining a tape that combined with a layer of wires.. just like tires with wires in it. specially made for tying gamecock's knife.

    I also have an idea, instead of using strings to tie the garol, why not use copper wire?

  25. #24
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    I once saw a gaffer who actually had copper wires in the middle of his tape he used the thin wires from a stranded electrical wire - so we tried doing the same and put it on a leg from a dead loser. And we "slashed" it with another knife tied on another leg. Actually the knife sliced through the copper wires with ease. I guess the thin strands didn't not do much to stop the knife. We tried to use the single wire but it was just too unwieldy and awkward to install.
    Maybe the more important observation was that it is actually very difficult to cut off a well tied Tari. The knife has to slice almost exactly parallel to the shank. Or a slightly diagonal cut that goes a long way around.
    I've heard some dockers like Camarines having experienced this but I have not yet personally witnessed it happen in the pit though.
    Since I like doing post mortise of losers and looking at winners being fixed up, what I have observed more are cases of the knife going out of alignment after the fight. Surprisingly at first, but if you examine the logic, it should not be : more winners Tari get misaligned than losers Tari . Simply because the losers did not hit much or did not hit at all. Hahahahahahaha . The winners especially those that get stuck in bone are the ones subjected to tremendous stress.

  26. #25
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Sir Camarines, on the twisting of the sap in, I would like to share with you all something I have been using since early this year. I never shared it before except to a doctor/cocker friend because it was still unproven but now I could share it with you so you could try it and then let's get more statistics on whether it really works when used extensively.

    The premise is that I fight mostly stags - as I don't have the luxury of time to age my roosters. I have observed, although not so obvious anymore nowadays because of the leather accessory boot, that stags can have circulation to their left foot hampered enough for them to limp, and even if they don't limp, for the foot to hurt or at least be uncomfortable enough that they won't puNch hard with their left.

    There are a few culprits, sometimes it's to tight weaving of the string, and less obvious is too tight SAPIN. The really good mananari or gaffer have gentle hands and place the sap in or tape gently, depending more on the pagkit or wax to attach the tape to the skin plus the proper locking of the wrap around. They also use very simple string weaving and lock the knife in place without applying too much pressure.

    However, there are many gaffers who, in their fear that the sap in or knife will twist and ruin their careers ;-) they apply that extra pressure. In cocks you can get a way with this, but with stags they have more tender feet and can be affected.

    With amateur or hobby gaffers like us, we have even more tendency to tie and sapin tighter. Why? Because we are more excited, we are more tense, we are so eager. That is my personal experience and only my humble opinion. I'm sure there are others there who are just much better than me.

    So I made a solution for amateurs like me. It's called moulding tape. It is what is used to attach stainless accessories to cars, so it's sticky, it's just the right thickness and it's cheap :-)

  27. #26
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Moulding tape is very much like a thicker and rubber based back to back tape. It serves as a cushion that actually makes the sapin adhere better. It's also quite simple to use.
    Just a single layer or band around the shank - one above the spur and another below the spur. Lately I apply the tape around the top and bring it around to under the spur for the bottom wrap. Remember it's just one layer.

    After, it's simple I just put the sapin around the top of the spur and down below the spur one round and put the leather boot and finish as usual.

    What does this do? That rubber moulding tape gives my sapin the extra sticking power to the skin without any pressure at all; but more importantly it gives that extra "cushion" so that the pressure of the sapin and the string is distributed more evenly on a bigger surface area. And during the fight, the impact of the blade on any surface is also better absorbed without affecting penetration, ( I tried hitting the knives on plywood on legs with and without the moulding tape - and in my subjective observation, the one with the moulding tape penetrated deeper). but don't take my word for it.

    I usually conduct knife fights in my yard with friends - no bets, just the bragging rights, and in Tagalog : pitikan Lang ;-) on several occasions I tied the knife on one stag and made him wait an hour before we fought him. He was in his pen all knifed up and waiting. When the fight started he had no limp and has actually stopped pecking on the baina. It was just like he was corded on the left leg. On top of that he won a very close fight, just three buckles and they were both dying. He just survived longer to peck.

    I don't recommend tying an hour before the fight. Please note that was just an experiment. It is always best to tie just before the fight will start, as in derbies. But at times you fight in small cockpits that are not well organized and the line of gaffes birds is long and the wait can be as much as an hour. Many fights are cancelled because namimilay na or roosters are limping.

    Actually I felt guilty once when we fought in a small provincial pit and the opponent was obviously limping but the financier was so cocky and wanted the fight to push through and balewala daw yun or it did not matter, they scratched (kahig) their rooster extensively and it indeed looked like it was ok already after a few minutes. So we pushed through, they were underdog sampu-anim 10:6. And when the roosters were released, his rooster started limping again. So the fight ended as expected. Not a scratch on our rooster.

  28. #27
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Sorry sir Camarines I wrote COCKERS but my iPad changed it to dockers - I don't know what dockers mean but I did not want to write that word.

    I'll try to find a way to get this auto editing function off.

  29. #28
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Post mortise hahahaha, post mortem - anyway i found out you can turn off the autocorrect function of this darn device. So its off now. At least all mistakes will be truly mine from now on. Just need to learn how to upload videos and pics.

  30. #29
    Member Giman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Sarawak, M'sia
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    jailbird, thanks for sharing your experiences.

  31. #30
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Paranaque
    Posts
    4,599
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    No problem sir Giman. My pleasure to vent out my excitement here. Hopefully we can have a chance for a getogether of knife afficionados and test our theories. Its always nice during friendly experimental fights, cause its not as expensive as when you lose in a derby. Of course you dont get to win cash also. I guess winning the stagfighter of the year last year in UCBA still gives me more pleasure and bragging rights than our occassional pitikan encounters in backyards. But this year, no luck. Transfering my breeding to Tanay meant having to go through the learning curve again with new facilities and most especially new people.
    Sometimes i order some bayong roosters from Lipa just so we have enough practice tying knives here at home. Am hoping to have more encounters to learn more.

Similar Threads

  1. chicken knives to hawaii
    By KRU808 in forum Chicken Talk
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: February 23rd, 2014, 02:43 PM
  2. Sharpening knives
    By blackdeath in forum Chicken Talk
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: February 21st, 2014, 05:46 AM
  3. Tari Sharpening
    By Gallos Locos in forum Chicken Talk
    Replies: 69
    Last Post: February 21st, 2014, 04:50 AM
  4. Sarawak Slasher Knives from Cebu
    By Daecox in forum Usapang Manok
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: August 25th, 2007, 08:33 AM
  5. engineering design of slasher knives
    By ninoy in forum Usapang Manok
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: April 25th, 2007, 12:34 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •