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Thread: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

  
  1. #31
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    jailbird,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the protection of the sapin. My cocker friend use to tell me if you use the leather boot there is little chance of making mistakes while heeling. He's the first guy I saw using the sapin and leather boot combination. He'll wrap the sapin first twice above the spur and twice below the spur, put the boot on and finish the rest of the sapin wrap around the boot to secure it. Back then it was a complete leather boot with paunan. Now with the new leather boot it even makes it lighter. He also does the post mortem inspection of the carcass which wonders me until he told me he was experimenting on finding out if he leans (kiling) the knife edge or I mean twist it where it does not align ordinarily. His theory was that if the point of the blade goes in the cock's body it will come out in a different angle thus will have a crooked cut making it more effective.

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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines View Post
    Found this knife on FB. Bali, Indonesia knife.


    In Sarawak (Malaysia), the cockers often use similar to the one at the top. We called it "Sulat" or "Bulang" ( in Iban Language). Beside using "Sulat", we also used " Ring knife" or "Tinchin" as in local dialect.


    If anybody, want to see the pictures of the knives, you can click to this URL.

    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1&l=1310a1356a
    Last edited by COLD STEEL; November 14th, 2011 at 11:49 AM.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by COLD STEEL View Post

    In Sarawak (Malaysia), the cockers often use similar to the one at the top. We called it "Sulat" or "Bulang" ( in Iban Language). Beside using "Sulat", we also used " Ring knife" or "Tinchin" as in local dialect.


    If anybody, want to see the pictures of the knives, you can click to this URL.

    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1&l=1310a1356a
    cold steel,

    I have both those style you have in your FB album. I love trying them both. I bought my surat for only 500 pesos. I think I bought three of them.

  4. #34
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Thanks Sir Camarines, yes the leather boot really works wonders, now its jus a matter of choosing the right "poste" i dont what to call the round peg. That actually determines the amount of angle of the tari to the shank. The smaller the poste, the more pasok the knife. The thicker the poste the more straight.
    I tend to allow my knife to be more pasok and forming a V about 25 to 30 degrees from the prop toe, but the blade itself i align parallel to the shank. Some actually bend the it to the right to make the blade aligned to the vent. With all due respect, i see very little correlation between the vent (ass) and the legstroke.
    In this respect my blades go easy in and easy out - if its a shuffle, and if it does deep penetration, the weight of the shank and gravity pulls the blade straight down to open up the wound and slide off easily.
    The reason i prefer an easy in easy out is because i realized that in the post mortem, what kills is vital organ damage. Breaking/ puncturing the heart or liver - anyway they are really adjacent to each other - is the quickest way to kill a rooster.

    The value of a big cavity i think is overrated - witness how many roosters still win with their entrails outside their body? Thats as much cavity as can be but unless the liver or heart goes down with it - they still fight if they are game enough.

    But a puncture to the heart or livers major blood vessels reduces blood supply to the brain immediately and death or brain hypoxia follows almost instantly.

    Easy in easy out is also because i actually have lost several fights before when my knife got stuck on the opponents body and when they retaliate and the leg is spread wide open my rooster got hit in the bullseye and talo pa.

    So in my case my angles are design for maximum depth penetration and minimum effort to pull out the blade. And so far so good, combined with a reasonable length, moderate curvature and medium point height, we have had our share of one shot kills.

    The other advantage is that it is very effective not only on the air - malakas makasira as one elder pro gaffer described it- but also accurate on ground fight, especially when the opponent is down. We have yet to experience a drag fight when the opponent is pilay and ours is stand up. Siyempre lamang na ang nakatayo but ive seen many fights were the winning or nakakalamang na rooster works so hard for 10 mins and cant kill they opponent which is flat on the floor. How frustrating. And we have shown through experimentation that it is because of the angle of the knife and the blade.

    Hope this makes sense.

  5. #35
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    I wonder how we could edit before posting. Anyway sorry for the mistypes and errors.

    Sir Cold steel, the one on the right looks like a nice traditional balinese knife. Im not sure but the one on the left looks like a standard socket knife. I have one i use for right leg fights. Its easy to install the left leg socket on the right leg cause it allows me to achieve my parallel to shank alignment of the blade. But i rarely fight with any partida. I also dont gaff piki or sakang - because i dont fight any. I screen my roosters for nice legs :-) hahaha maybe a throw back on preferences during younger times

  6. #36
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Hi sir Camarines, i forgot to add that about two months ago, i was able to buy leather boots - actually synthetic materials - but the nice thing is that they had a very thin back to back tape already installed :-) nice because no more need to put beeswax on the boot. It sticks right onto the sapin, and makes things so much simpler. Small note, just like any boot, i cut it to size, and always make a notch for the prop toe so it does not impede any upward movement by the prop toe.

    On knife sharpening, stropping of the knife using a leather strap is really very effective. Every amateur should have a leather strap for stropping. In my case i attached one to an arkansaw oilstone so i can hone on one side and the strop on the other. Many times if the blades burr have been removed, and a secondary edge has already been honed in, afew light strokes on the leather strap away from the blade otherwise it will cut the leather, gives a very sharp edge.

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    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    For tie string. I came across a two strand string for flying kites. It's strong for a two strand string but I have not tried it yet. Also bought the roll of white thread brand name Dragon for 100 pesos from a chicken doctor. I use 9 yards for tie strings. The DMC brand for crafts is also good and it's already set at 9 yards long and in different color.

  8. #38
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Thanks, i should start mking my own strings like you. I usually buy commercial strings and sapin. And i dont like reusing those two items. So along with the electrical tape and the moulding tape, the sapin and the string are usually single use items. Magastos but since we only gaff our own roosters ok lang. Same principle with the knife, we noticed that a knife is only good for a maximum of 3 vaciada sharpenings - wel depending on the skill of the vaciador. Maybe a more objective measure is that any knife that is already 2 sizes shorter than its original length is a candidate for replacement.

    Some tell me that its a waste and sayang cause you can use it for shorter fowl. But i note that at two sizes shorter, the point goes low and forcing it up by padding the sapin changes the curvature and affects the overall angulation.

    A friend gave me the economics of it and said: even if the knife cost 1,500 if you use it 3 times, thats 500 per use. And even if you only use it once, its just 1,500. Think about how much you give the tagaulot, the handlers, the manggagamot, the plasada, etc and that is really insignificant considering the bets and entry fees and all the time money and effort you placed on your rooster.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by jailbird View Post
    Thanks, i should start mking my own strings like you. I usually buy commercial strings and sapin. And i dont like reusing those two items. So along with the electrical tape and the moulding tape, the sapin and the string are usually single use items. Magastos but since we only gaff our own roosters ok lang. Same principle with the knife, we noticed that a knife is only good for a maximum of 3 vaciada sharpenings - wel depending on the skill of the vaciador. Maybe a more objective measure is that any knife that is already 2 sizes shorter than its original length is a candidate for replacement.

    Some tell me that its a waste and sayang cause you can use it for shorter fowl. But i note that at two sizes shorter, the point goes low and forcing it up by padding the sapin changes the curvature and affects the overall angulation.

    A friend gave me the economics of it and said: even if the knife cost 1,500 if you use it 3 times, thats 500 per use. And even if you only use it once, its just 1,500. Think about how much you give the tagaulot, the handlers, the manggagamot, the plasada, etc and that is really insignificant considering the bets and entry fees and all the time money and effort you placed on your rooster.
    jailbird,

    Back in Nov 2008 to Mar 2009 I was fighting back home. I wasn't getting my knife sharpen by a vaciador. I was just honing the knife over and over with a diamond hone. So those professional tadero were laughing at me and I'm always the underdog 10 to 6. Well they keep thinking that way until I entered the derbies and started getting my knife sharpen by the vaciador. They still think I'm using a dull knife. You should hear them mock me when I use the diamond hone. One would say that it might spark (refering to a match stick). I just ignore most comments anyway and don't pay attention to them.

  10. #40
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Thats right sir. Most taderos dont even have a clue as to why they are effective. Hahahaha. Monkey see, monkey do. Thats why when they find a good vaciador they are very loyal to them. Which is just correct. A good vaciador is not just a supplier of services. He should be a friend. Most of my tips i got from Vaciador/tari makers. When the blades arrive, you can see the kind of abuse they went thru and also how the metal performed. Many times a good vaciador will re forge the knife for you.

    They know that the heat generated by the grinding, even if well oiled can affect the metal and make it britlle at the tip or worse, soft.

    I have a tari maker from iloilo who makes excellent knives. His blades are exactly what i like. So i stick to him nowadays.

  11. #41
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    And by the way sir, with a 10:6 logro, i will fight any one's brand new knife with a 3x used knife - kahit may bungi bungi pa ang blade edge - sometimes that happens when the blades come into contact with metal.

    Those small serrations, bungi on the edge - not the tip - i feel even help create more damage.

    I have actually been trying to find a way to serrate my knives. I noticed that my serrated chefs knives cut through flesh and even tin cans very easily. I understand its hard to re sharpen - but then again if it helps with one win that should be well worth it.

    This comes very handy with next best killer after a puncture to the internal organs - the neck slash. In my observation this happens when the strike is "lampas" and the blade cuts the neck on the way down. Usually the wound is at the back of the neck, so it needs to cut deeper to reach the arteries or the spinal cord.

    The cord gives instant paralysis - it happenEd to one of my roosters last saturday - his spine got severed and was instantly paralyzed from the neck down - but could still peck. He continue to peck for 3 mins, but had its legs outstretched when put down, either he was very game, or there was no more pain sensation from the neck down. Eventually of course he passed out and lost. We were quite puzzled as why he could still peck even with a badly damaged neck - but it was time to limber the next one, so we had to put that aside.

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    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Pak Agung,
    Boleh saya tanya kalau Bapak ada kemungkinan bisa jalan2 ke Philippina? Sala satu kehormatan besar kapan bisa kitamu bapak disini, dan bole kita mengunjung tempat2 adu ayam dan tukang pisau adu ayam juga. Boleh kita menyari juga yg pisau terjangkau dan bole kita coba dengan ayam lokal dan asil yg mirip ayam kampung ;-)

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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    hi there iam interested to learn on how to tie the knife, could anybody leand me their expertise

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    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by junmitchum View Post
    hi there iam interested to learn on how to tie the knife, could anybody leand me their expertise
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRbiNQB8vn8"]Tari-Filipino fork knife instructional video - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epn83TRUaJ0&feature=related"]Filipino Knife Gaffing 3 - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60iDJvmQJLQ&feature=related"]Filipino Knife Gaffing 1 - YouTube[/ame]

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    Senior Member Darkside's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    when they say 45 on the 2ne video, what are they sighting the point at?

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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by jailbird View Post
    Pak Agung,
    Boleh saya tanya kalau Bapak ada kemungkinan bisa jalan2 ke Philippina? Sala satu kehormatan besar kapan bisa kitamu bapak disini, dan bole kita mengunjung tempat2 adu ayam dan tukang pisau adu ayam juga. Boleh kita menyari juga yg pisau terjangkau dan bole kita coba dengan ayam lokal dan asil yg mirip ayam kampung ;-)
    Hey jailbird, I'm trying to learn sumthing and anything about chicken knives, tari, and slashers but, what the heck are you talking about here?Am I missing some very important pointers?

  17. #47
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by FILAMEX View Post
    Hey jailbird, I'm trying to learn sumthing and anything about chicken knives, tari, and slashers but, what the heck are you talking about here?Am I missing some very important pointers?
    Great pack,
    May I ask if there is a possibility you could jalan2 to Philippina? Sala a great honor when I can kitamu father here, and we visit the bole tempat2 cockfighting cockfighting knives and carpenters as well. We may sum up the knife who is also affordable and bole we try with the local chicken and chicken-like acyl;-)

    google translate not very good.

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    Senior Member jack_kie's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines View Post
    jailbird,

    Have you experienced having your tari misaligned because the tape and sapin was hit by the opponent's tari? Had that happen to me. Wonder if there is any electrical tape that can protect the sapin from get cut? I know some mananari puts a thin metal string on their electrical tape to cover the sapin. But is there another method. Most electrical tape are vinyl and can be cut by pulling on it hard.

    Should be a good inventor's dream to create a good protection for the sapin.
    To be able to get the sapin and string to hold its alignment even when cut, use a mix of bees wax and paraffin wax of the same quantity. melt it in low heat and harden at room temperature. wipe it on the sapin and string evenly. to protect string from cuts, i use leather strip wrapped around the string after heeling then I use electrical tape over the leather.

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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines View Post
    jailbird,

    Have you experienced having your tari misaligned because the tape and sapin was hit by the opponent's tari? Had that happen to me. Wonder if there is any electrical tape that can protect the sapin from get cut? I know some mananari puts a thin metal string on their electrical tape to cover the sapin. But is there another method. Most electrical tape are vinyl and can be cut by pulling on it hard.

    Should be a good inventor's dream to create a good protection for the sapin.
    Sir Camarines,

    I designed a leahter boots that already combines the traditional leather boots and the kalang or piece of wood that you attach to the sapin. This will allow you to wrap your sapin over the fork of your knife and tie the bidbid over the sapin. Even without the bidbid, the knife is quite stable after you wrap around the sapit to the fork. This also adds stability to the alignment as the knife is more securely tied to the leather boots.

    I hope you can imagine what I am saying as I do not have the tools to post a picture of it.

    BantonSpur

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    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    jackie and bantonspur,

    Thanks for your comments. It only happen to me once but once is enough. I know a lot of tadero really pays particular attention to this because it does happen. Anything to improve our chance of winning is important.

    And I also will pay most important attention to tying stags as it is difficult to maintain the sapin from not moving.

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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines View Post
    jackie and bantonspur,

    Thanks for your comments. It only happen to me once but once is enough. I know a lot of tadero really pays particular attention to this because it does happen. Anything to improve our chance of winning is important.

    And I also will pay most important attention to tying stags as it is difficult to maintain the sapin from not moving.
    Sir Camarines,

    That is acxtually one of the motivations why I designed that leather boots. I am new in knife tying and quite slow in doing it. The new leather boots affords me to do it faster. As we very well know, the shank of stags are quite tender yet and slow knife tying might result to limping stags in the pit. It's just a pity that I can not post a picture of this new design. Just imagine the old leather boots and the kalang together and you have it.

    BantonSpur

  22. #52
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by FILAMEX View Post
    Hey jailbird, I'm trying to learn sumthing and anything about chicken knives, tari, and slashers but, what the heck are you talking about here?Am I missing some very important pointers?
    Im so very sorry. I just suddenly missed speaking bahasa indonesia, so i was just inviting Pak Agung, if he had a chance to visit the Philippines, i would show him around the various farms, and introduce him to knife makers. We could also practice tying knives on our western gamefowl as well as asils that resemble the indonesian gamefowl.

    The invite is extended to all of course :-)

    BTW the idea of pitting another leather wrap after weaving the string may work as extra protection. Maybe put back to back tape on the leather so it sticks right away and does not take too much time to install. A thin leather piece wont weigh much. Thanks for the idea!

  23. #53
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by jailbird View Post
    Im so very sorry. I just suddenly missed speaking bahasa indonesia, so i was just inviting Pak Agung, if he had a chance to visit the Philippines, i would show him around the various farms, and introduce him to knife makers. We could also practice tying knives on our western gamefowl as well as asils that resemble the indonesian gamefowl.

    The invite is extended to all of course :-)

    BTW the idea of pitting another leather wrap after weaving the string may work as extra protection. Maybe put back to back tape on the leather so it sticks right away and does not take too much time to install. A thin leather piece wont weigh much. Thanks for the idea!
    Carpet tape is what is commonly use to get the leather secured but I've seen several people already using the black cloth tape that are also double stick use by electricians.

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    Senior Member kywolf's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    back in the day i was a fan of the von magnum socket knife.even then i noticed there was a differnce among those.it seemed that one knife would always have a great win % than another of the same length,style,ect.not sure what the differnce was but guess it was something in the set or the tempering in the blade.

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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by junmitchum View Post
    hi there iam interested to learn on how to tie the knife, could anybody leand me their expertise
    Try looking in here. I'm sure you can learn sumthing about anything regarding the Filipino fork knife.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9AOtGC1jg&feature=related"]blade testing - YouTube[/ame]

  26. #56
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines View Post
    Carpet tape is what is commonly use to get the leather secured but I've seen several people already using the black cloth tape that are also double stick use by electricians.
    Yes thats quite sticky and the cloth fibers would afford some protection.

    I just visited my bro in pangasinan and he is fighting in the 4 stag semis in tarlac for the bakbakan. He gaffs his own birds, and we use the same style gaffing. He just messaged me that he has won 2 already today and just waiting for 2 more fights.

    Although we have the same knife setting and alignment and we get our knives from the same smith, he does not yet apply the moulding tape. He just sticks to the 3 turns of the cotton tape (sapin) above the spur, 3 turns below, place the the leather boots wilth the pillow support aligned with the inner toe. Then give two rounds of sapin below the spur and two rounds above the spur and add about 2 folds on the left upper side of the spur, and another round above the spur. Follow this with a round below the spur, and 2 folds on the left lower side of the spur. Those folds will serve to elevate the pad on the left side of the spur to allow the V angle of the blade to the prop toe.
    Finish with 2 rounds around the lower side of the spur fir stability. Leave aroung 6-7 inches of tape to wrap around the round peg (unan) and set it on the pillow support area ( now covered by several layers of cotton tape.

    A normal blade setting nowadays will have the point and blade directed at the right post of the fork. This gives too much angulation to the right and will usually aim the blade and point inside of the left leg and many times pointing to the body center or the anus. To correct this, simply twist the fork to the left :-) aound 8-10 degrees in relation to the shank. Or until the blade aligns with the shank and will look like it is parallel to the shank and pointing at the edge of the knee.

    An effect of this shift is that the blade base moves away from the prop toe about 1/2 to 3/4 cm. There is now "space" between the prop toe and the blade base. This gives your roosters prop toe more movement leeway - but thats not the important point. What is important is that the blade is now parallel with the shank, and if you let the leg swing along its natural movement you will see the point and the blade travels in a straight line.

    No wobble. I call thosnthe sweet spot alignment. Its like a golf club if your swing is not aligned, it jars your hands, but if the point of contact and swing are aligned, then the ball flies the maximum distance because it was hit by the sweet spot.

    After alignment we do the weaving of the string. Next post

    Some people will say it looks duling or cross eyed ;-) but when the rooster walks the blade forms a

  27. #57
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    The blade firms a v to the toe, the point is just inside the right legs walking path.

    During the aim this padding system will usually be neutral with the point following the curvature of the blade. Meaning if the blade is laylay, it will remain so. If the blade is high point, it will also remain so. As a genral rule i like my point to be at the same height as the upper par of the spur. And since i only use blades that measure from the prop toe to the knee joint, they normally leave a wide opening between the shank and the blade. But enough angle to cut if the blade hangs on the neck or any part of the body.

  28. #58
    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by FILAMEX View Post
    Try looking in here. I'm sure you can learn sumthing about anything regarding the Filipino fork knife.

    blade testing - YouTube
    I don't understand the video, but I believe the metal that has more sparks has a higher carbon content.

  29. #59
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Yup, and the guy talking in Visayan is saying that a good way to find out how hard your metal is or maybe more accurately, what type of metal - in this case, the garol or fork is made off- is to have several metal pieces, in this cae saw blades, and grind them and compare the sparks or metal hardness. In this case, the garol had similar sparking characteriistics as the last saw blade. And if i heard correctly he said "humok" or soft metal compared to the first that withstood the grinding better.

  30. #60
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: Chicken Knives, Tari, Slasher - tying, sharpening etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
    when they say 45 on the 2ne video, what are they sighting the point at?
    Hi Darkside, when they say 45 degrees, the guy pointed out that it should be 45 degrees in relation to the prop toe. Obviously, the blade was only about 5-8 degrees in relation to the prop toe. This was because the paddings on the left and right side were even, and the pillow peg used was quite thick. Note that he had to adjust the peg by pushing it a bit inwards to accommodate the slight separation of the blade from the prop toe. the curvature of the blade to the right that he showed adds a little inside angle, providing some degree of correction, but this creates a twisting motion with the stroke. Some will say its good for shock value, but i think it reduces the penetration depth.

    i don't use 45 degrees either as it seems a bit too much, and the blade crosses over to the right leg. instead by adding 2 folds both up and down on the left side it will push the left for forward and create a natural angle away from the prop toe. more or less 22.5 degrees. Since I twist the fork to the left, this corrects the blade angulation and makes it parralel to the leg.

    He shows a reasonably sturdy weaving of the string, though.

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