Bruner Roundhead's

[Yunke8888]

Yunk, better look close at your infusing family, breeding back to 15/16 is essentially straight but if the family you are putting in has dirt it will show at a 1/16th

You are 100% correct, that is why it is essential that you learn as much as possible about your choice strain and its reputable breeders that are competing with them in the present. Only use brood stock from proven performance families, and reputable breeders. Observe the individual brood cock prospect performance and as many from its family, as possible.
When it is not possible to personally select the brood fowl directly, get as much information from others that have gotten brood stock from the same strain and breeder, in the recent past. Ultimately you will rely on the breeder reputation for quality and integrity.


Never rush into an acquisition without doing your homework. Always test your prospective brood cock(s) before breeding them, it will save you, lots of time and money. Test bred your selected prospect brood cock(s), single mated to at least 6 different hens, preferable 12, to select the top mates. Rigorous selection and ruthless testing & culling are the next essential steps in preserving your family(ies). It is usually easier to properly manage, 1 or 2 strains than when you carry a menagerie of them.

YFIS


yunke8888

[Yunke8888]

Hi RHman, it seems like you read my mind.

I am a big proponent of single mate, test breeding, all prospective brood fowl before introducing them into the main flock. This testing is done to both sexes: prospect brood cocks to 6-12 different hens & prospect pullets/hens to 2-4 different cocks. This initial tests can be run for 2-3 mos.( 1/2 a season) for each mating.

IMHO: Only superior performers and prepotent producers, earn a place to develop a new bloodline. Always test @ generation and continue to the last generation which produces outstanding individuals, or 31/32. Strict selection and ruthless testing and culling are the only route to success. Always discard all individuals that show inbreeding depression, they will producing mediocre and dunghill offspring in the long run.

Most breeders can handle only one or 2 strains under this system, as it is expensive and laborious, but a lot cheaper and more rewarding than most menagerie collections, in the long run.

YFIS

yunke8888

[ebednar]

Yunk thank you so much for all your sound advice, lol, how long have you been in this game?

[Yunke8888]

My bruner cross when he was a stag he won this January 2nd on february and 3rd was back in may he did not survive his 3rd but I was happy with the result his brother also won but died in the cord must have ate something bad.

Very nice stag with a good record, keep the mating at full production, as long as it keeps producing Ws.
Eventually you will get one or more, that will survive multiple contests and fulfills all your requirements as a prospective brood cock. Meanwhile select and test breed, as many full sisters to their sire and 1 or 2 other proven brood cocks. Always select from proven performers, as strain and color hardly weight anything on the scoreboard.


Good luck

yunke8888

[Yunke8888]

Yunk thank you so much for all your sound advice, lol, how long have you been in this game?

About 50 years on and off. I will be 63 this coming September and started as a 12-13 yr old - all the way through H.S. Quit to go to college and re started 15 years later, for about 15 years and had to quit again. I have been planning my return, for the past year or so, and hopefully start breeding again this coming year.

I have not bred any birds, through the breaks, but have kept in touch with friends in the sport and shows, though the past 50 years.

YFIS

yunke8888

[Genis]

Very nice stag with a good record, keep the mating at full production, as long as it keeps producing Ws.
Eventually you will get one or more, that will survive multiple contests and fulfills all your requirements as a prospective brood cock. Meanwhile select and test breed, as many full sisters to their sire and 1 or 2 other proven brood cocks. Always select from proven performers, as strain and color hardly weight anything on the scoreboard.


Good luck

yunke8888

Thank you sir I had them for 11 years now theyre kinda small now mostly are inbred at linebred last year I infused my friends billy abbots line I havent tested them yet but Im still keeping the tight family just incase the first outcross doesnt come out good. But from what Im seeing they looked promising I also sent a billy abbot bullhen from Mthompson to try I hope to produce from those two hens and at the same time keeping my family that's been good to me through the years of breedimg them. I also have a plan on trying them with dan gray roundheads, Ive been successfull with the bruner crossed on bob howards and kehr kelsos.

[Yunke8888]

Yunke I don't agree on the blue legged pullet percentage. Jack Smith always got a higher percentage of blue legs than that. He told me if all else is equal put the blue legged hen in the brood pen over the white legged hen. Also I will get a blue legged rooster just like he said I would. The first trio Jack a Smith gave Billy Abbott was all blue legs.

Chad, I stand corrected, in my case this was the trend. I bought a 4 yr old proven battle trio (Bruner BC- BB RED Lemon Hackle YL + 2 Bates Hatch hens) in '80 from local man and partnered with him on the stags and cocks out of this trio (2 harvests) born prior to my purchase. They were performing great 60-70 % W's & 4-6 Derby trophies @ yr. Next season, I was able to purchase the cock's parent trio, 8 yr olds - YL cock + 2 WL hens, from a man living in a near town. Single mated got 12-15 chicks out of 1 hen, the other one was infertile. Lost the parent cock that summer. That winter obtained a new trio from Filey Patterson, the breeder of the parent trio, it was 31/32 inbred to his original ACE BC, all 3 WL-full brother and sisters. Bred the 6 yr old to the inbred hens & the inbred cock to the old hen (9-10 year old ). For the next 10-12 years all straight bred offspring would come out 40-60 % either YL or WL out of 30-50 stags and about the same # of pullets harvested/yr. Maybe 1 or no Blue legged pullet /yr, & 2-3 blue stained WL stags /yr. The straight bred ones performed better than the Xs. I never bred out of the BL pullets but would breed the WL & YL without discrimination. I always thought back then that the BL's were throw backs, and WL & YL was normal. Later I found out that the YL's were being called Cowan RH's & the WL's were Bruner RH's. Hell I was breeding about 1/2 & 1/2 without breeding YL to YL and WL to WL. Very little info was coming out from the Magazines before the PC's became common. Had I known back then, I would have started selecting for 3 different flocks, Cowan (YL), Bruner (WL) & Cripple Tony ( BL). Now that I am coming back into the sport, I have not been able to find the same quality as the ones I had before. I know it is out there but have not found it yet.

YFIS

yunke8888

[pitcrawler]

Hi Yunke8888, do you mean the Cripple Tony blue legged is the same as the Bruner blue legged?Please enlighten us more....thanks

[Yunke8888]

Hi Yunke8888, do you mean the Cripple Tony blue legged is the same as the Bruner blue legged?Please enlighten us more....thanks

IMHO: The way I see it is that William Allen used Dr. Saunders RH cocks (BB, Lt Red, W tail streamers, some spangled, PC, YL ) to develop several strains. Dr. Sanders cocks were mated to Col. Grist Grady's hens ( SC, YL & WL and line-bred back to 7/8-15/16 RH ) to develop the Lt. legged Allen RH strain ( YL & WL ). Allen used the same Dr. Saunders cocks to mate some Cripple Tony ( SC, BL ) hens that he had bought from a Mr. Vine from E. Texas and developed the Cripple Tony RH strain, by breeding back to 7/8-15/16 RH.

HH Cowan- obtained a pen or a walk of Allen RH's from Burnell Shelton, Wm. Allen's bro. in law and latter developed his own strain ( Alabama RHs ) from them, by infusing Gull & later Grist Grady blood into the Allen RHs. The Alabama Rhs were later renamed Bruner RH, by Wm. Holding, in honor of TK Bruner, who had a big input in the development of the Alabama RHs. The Alabama RHs/Cowan RHs & Bruner RHs are one and the same strain, depending on who you ask. It stands to reason, that if the only BL blood infused into the Allen/Alabama/Cowan/Bruner families or strains, was from the Cripple Tony SC hens from Mr. Vine, the PC-BL throw backs from all of this families, are Cripple Tony RHs. Irishcutt & his father got Allen Rhs from 2 different sources and obtains YL, WL, & BL offspring from both families. Chad Boland got Bruner RHs from Jack Smith & Bill Morris and gets a high % of both, WL & BL offspring. There is no breed, strain or family left that is 100% pure of anything, everything has been crossed/ infused with something else.


YFIS

yunke8888

[Yunke8888]

IMHO: The way I see it is that William Allen used Dr. Saunders RH cocks (BB, Lt Red, W tail streamers, some spangled, PC, YL ) to develop several strains. Dr. Sanders cocks were mated to Col. Grist Grady's hens ( SC, YL & WL and line-bred back to 7/8-15/16 RH ) to develop the Lt. legged Allen RH strain ( YL & WL ). Allen used the same Dr. Saunders cocks to mate some Cripple Tony ( SC, BL ) hens that he had bought from a Mr. Vine from E. Texas and developed the Cripple Tony RH strain, by breeding back to 7/8-15/16 RH.

HH Cowan- obtained a pen or a walk of Allen RH's from Burnell Shelton, Wm. Allen's bro. in law and latter developed his own strain ( Alabama RHs ) from them, by infusing Gull & later Grist Grady blood into the Allen RHs. The Alabama Rhs were later renamed Bruner RH, by Wm. Holding, in honor of TK Bruner, who had a big input in the development of the Alabama RHs. The Alabama RHs/Cowan RHs & Bruner RHs are one and the same strain, depending on who you ask. It stands to reason, that if the only BL blood infused into the Allen/Alabama/Cowan/Bruner families or strains, was from the Cripple Tony SC hens from Mr. Vine, the PC-BL throw backs from all of this families, are Cripple Tony RHs. Irishcutt & his father got Allen Rhs from 2 different sources and obtains YL, WL, & BL offspring from both families. Chad Boland got Bruner RHs from Jack Smith & Bill Morris and gets a high % of both, WL & BL offspring. There is no breed, strain or family left that is 100% pure of anything, everything has been crossed/ infused with something else.


YFIS

yunke8888

If it quacks like a duck----------------= If it looks like a Cripple Tony RH and acts like one, it is a Cripple Tony RH.

[Chad Bolan]

The fowl that Willis Holding was was given by T.k Bruner was 1/2 Bruner Rh( Alabama Rh ) 1/4 Gull, 1/4 Lowman white hackle, that was the breeding of the Bruner Roundhead at the end of Bruners career. That is the direct wording and breeding out of the letter that was sent to Willis Holding. When Willis gifted the fowl to Jack Smith that is the letter he gifted him also with the fowl as to there breeding. That is why the true Bruner fowl are 180 degree opposites of a lacy.

[Duckfighter]

I have the brunners of mr lester. They have aim its like they know were to hit . Somtimes they'll get out broken sometimes they'll get hit first somtimes they hit one time with maybe 2 buckels an win , but they all have a sorta backup special tipe of hit to the jugular that rarely fails . Thats as much cut as ya can get in my opinion . Aint gone get better then that. If you have them its smart not to let go of them . They'll add surgical cutting to any line . Even in gaff , them bill holders go down reall quick plus hits to the neck are hard to take

[Smokin RazorZ]

Hi RHman, it seems like you read my mind.

I am a big proponent of single mate, test breeding, all prospective brood fowl before introducing them into the main flock. This testing is done to both sexes: prospect brood cocks to 6-12 different hens & prospect pullets/hens to 2-4 different cocks. This initial tests can be run for 2-3 mos.( 1/2 a season) for each mating.

IMHO: Only superior performers and prepotent producers, earn a place to develop a new bloodline. Always test @ generation and continue to the last generation which produces outstanding individuals, or 31/32. Strict selection and ruthless testing and culling are the only route to success. Always discard all individuals that show inbreeding depression,

yunke8888

Can an you share signs of "inbreeding depressions"?
I'm just beginning to breed my own fowls and some pointers would be appreciated
thanks.

[Bamaclaret]

Chef11 is frank Ellis Roundheads. Burners ?

[Yunke8888]

Chef11 is frank Ellis Roundheads. Burners ?

Hi Bamaclaret, the strain's name given by Willis Holding to the Alabama RHs inherited from TK Brunner-- is Brunner RH. Bruners was the name given to some Brunner RHs which were infused with something else by Willis Holding they look the same as the Original Brunner RHs but some show cold blood at times. You will find "Burners" on stoves, boilers, water heaters, etc.

YFIS

yunke8888

[Caliblue10]

I have not owned RH blood for many years I am very new to them...so my questions is ..why do some pullets come blue legs amd the stags come white legs when the brood hen is also white leg any help would be appreciated

[Yunke8888]

Can an you share signs of "inbreeding depressions"?
I'm just beginning to breed my own fowls and some pointers would be appreciated
thanks.

Inbreeding Depression: Is expressed by the diminishing quality of a trait or traits.
Inbreeding &/or line-breeding is a breeding system used to concentrate genes (traits), by breeding closely related individuals. The more closely related the individuals matted are, the greater the concentration of good and/or bad genes (traits), this concentration is usually expressed physically or emotionally in the offspring traits. Some physical traits expressed are size, weight,
bone density, strength, speed, vigor, longevity, fertility etc. Emotional traits are: temperament (gentle or wild, man-fighter), intelligence ( ring generalship, alertness, timing, accuracy ), gameness, bottom, etc.

Game-fowl individuals and families, tolerate inbreeding/line-breeding to different degrees, some are able to tolerate tight inbreeding, some hardly tolerate inbreeding at all. When vigor and/or temperament are compromised by the breeding system it is time to stop tightening the gene concentration and return to the last generation which expresses their best traits and least bad traits.

IMHO: Inbreeding/line-breeding should not be applied to every Tom, Dick and Harry. This system should be reserved for vigorous individuals with, outstanding performance and production records and demonstrate a high degree of prepotency. In other words for the select few needles in the haystack.


YFIS

yunke8888

[Yunke8888]

I have been told that the Brunners will throw a blue leg every blue moon. Is this true??? Cause I have some Brunners that are unreal and very nice. But I get a blue legged pullet every blue moon.

It sure is true, I raised Bruner RHs in So Texas from 1980 to 1995 when I had to go work in Mexico. I started with 2 trios from Filey Patterson bloodline, trio # 1 about 7-8 yo YL Cock + WL hens, trio # 2 bought 2 yrs later 31/32 inbred to Fileys Original Bruner ACE BC, were full brothe & sisters 3 y olds all WL.

I would get 40-60% WL/YLs and vice-versa, 1-2% bluish tinted W legs and 0.5 to 1.0 % SC, depending on the year.

The year before I got trio # 1, I got a 4 yo YL son of that trio mated to 2 Bates hatch hens, they were producing tremendous battle cocks which led me to buy trio # 1 as old as they were.

The mating of the inbred cock from trio # 2 with old hens & their daughters of trio #1, and matings of son of #1 with inbred hens from trio # 2 turned out way better than the crossbred Bruner X Bates, kept the bloodline for 15 years, best all around I have ever seen or kept. The few offspring I got out of inbred B/S mattings from trio # 2, turned out beautiful, damned good cutters lots of evasive action but not very game. Had (2) 3X winners unscratched & 2 downed their opponent in 1st pitting and ran as soon as scratched, culled everything out of those 2 mattings. The 1st 2 cocks were BB med Red, Lemon hackled YLs, the inbred cock was BB dk Red, dk Red hackle WLs. The offspring came out about 1/2 + 1/2 BB med red lemon hackles & BB dk red dk hackles.

All pullets were either Buff or Wheaten colored.

Keep them Crowing,

yunke8888

[Yunke8888]

Bruner cock

Beautiful Bruner Cock Supercut, where did you obtain your original brood stock from.

My Original brood stock came from Filey Patterson of Alabama and their offspring looked
very much like your BC, although their sires looked a lot more oriental. similar to the inbred cocks that GRP gave to EXODIA, posted by EXODIA somewhere else. The offspring from my 2nd trio ( heavily inbred cock ) had similar conformation but were dark hackled.

Keep them Crowing

yunke8888

[MThompson]

I have a few Bruner pullets for sale if anyone is interested.

[Yunke8888]

Chef11 is frank Ellis Roundheads. Burners ?

Frank Ellis ( RIP ) bred Lacy RH's, his brother Jake Ellis bred Bruner RH's. I do not know if Jake is still around, but he had a son named Frank that might have continued with the Bruner RH bloodline.

Does anybody know Frank Ellis contact # or address? Please PM or if you (Jake's son ) read this post please PM.

Keep them Crowing

yunke8888

[Yunke8888]

THOMPSON BRUNERS



Impressive to learn that RH win in gaffs.... shows how little I know about Bruners ; ) LOL !

I like this one from Mike Thompson.

Practically all strains and bloodlines developed in the US, since Colonial times to the present were developed for the Gaff. Whether SG or LG.

It was not till around the 1980's that some breeders started selecting for the Knife, SK & LK, as demand of brood fowl & battle crosses for this type of weapon grew in Mexico and the PI.

yunke8888

[agarcia]

The burners you got from Ken have they come out blue legget or yellow legget? Have any of them come out straight comb? Let me know am interested in purchasing. Thanks

[MThompson]

The burners you got from Ken have they come out blue legget or yellow legget? Have any of them come out straight comb? Let me know am interested in purchasing. Thanks

Im not for sure if this question is directed at me or not, but I haven't ever got a strait combed one. I have however got two blue leg pullets over the years

[BRUNNERMAN]

Like to know how you got them he don't let them out in the U.S. i talk to Burt ever day we are good friends pm me your name i will ask him today if you have them but i bet you don't if you do i will let
every body know you have them i have them for ten years but he is like my brother never let a feather out hope you do have them

[StevenL8531]

To my understanding Mr. Lester is one of the hardest people to get brunner blood from in the united states, and for good reason to. With the way blood spreads around these days, there's no question you would show against them somewhere down the road. Hats off to the man for staying as strong as his bloodlines.

[gladiator]

Brunners are pretty good little birds. I got mine from my very good friend Bert. Cross pretty damn good on his radios, which I also got from him. None for sale.

[Yunke8888]

The burners you got from Ken have they come out blue legget or yellow legget? Have any of them come out straight comb? Let me know am interested in purchasing. Thanks

Hi agarcia,

Will you specify who are you addressing this question to? I imagine the Ken you are referring about is Ken Kincannon, is it?

If the question was addressed to me. I never had any Bruner RH blood from Ken, as far as I know, my Bruner RH's came from Filey Patterson of Alabama, in the early 80's.
I do not recall ever asking Filey where he had obtained his bloodline, they were such excellent performers and producers I did not care about who had bred them 20 or 30 years before. As far as I knew, they were Filey's Bruner RH's, as he had bred, raised, tested, culled & selected them for several generations. My trio # 2 ( 3 yr. olds were all WLs ) acquired directly from him in '84 or '85, was linebred 5 generations (31/32 ) from a Super Ace Cock ( 7 or 8X W unscratched ) he had bred himself 12 or 15 years before. Trio #1 ( 8-10 Yr. olds YL Cock & WL hens ), I got it from Benjie G. of Alice, Tx., in '83 who had gotten them from Filey as 2 yr olds ) 6-8 yrs. before ( '75-'77 ). The "Cold Beer" Cock ( YL, son of trio # 1 ) & 2 Bates Hatch hens ( 4-5 yr. olds ), I got from Chris L. of Ricardo, Tx in '80, who had gotten him from Benjie G.

As I mentioned before, the straight bred Bruner RH's, were producing 40-60 % YL/WL and vice-versa. A small # came blue tinted WLs, mainly pullets the blue tinted leg in stags was usually partial, not the whole leg, never got a true blue leg out of them, as Chad Bolan and others have. Never bred out straight Bruner RH's of the blue stained legs or SC ones. SC was very minimal ( 0-1 % ) depending on the year. The Old cock from trio # 1 & "Cold Beer" his son resembled the inbred cocks EXODIA got from GRP ( kind of oriental looking ), their offspring & cock from trio # 2, resembled the cocks in pictures from Jim Clem & Mike Thompson.

YFIS

yunke8888

[Yunke8888]

Keep it UP UP UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[grey/dom]

sons of my jarret...