Scott do you realy know the differance in recessive and dominant. How can you keep a recessive from not coming out. I am glad you said I DO NOT THINK you can breed the bad out. I think genecists would disagre with you. Since they say inbreeding is the best tool to breed out bad traits. With due respect to mister Shy. There are thousands of others breeders of other species that would disagree with him. There have been some ADVANCEMENTS in breeding . Modern Breeding of Game Fowl is not so modern in 2012. Scott what caused your culls? If fighting the best and killing the rest, is what you call breeding, then so be it. You keep up dated on what is being posted on this thread and a couple others, and see if you still think the same in the future. We have been posting on genetics for 7-8 years. When I started, lots of people posted the same things you are saying right now, see what they have to say now. Genetics may not be important to you, but tell these beginers they dont need to know some. Scott when I got a straight comb after actually 18 generations, guss what, I DID NOT CONSIDER THIS RECESSIVE GENE TO BE A BAD TRAIT. Is a recessive gene always BAD. Tell us , if you do not have a high degree of homozygous genes , how can you have consistancy. How can you have consistancy with mostly heterzygous genes. What causes consistanct? What causes random gene expression. How do you make a homozygous gene. I am sorry, but to know this you have to use MATHAMATICS AND CHARTS. slwnstdy, To get consistancy, you have to create homozygous genes, while creating homozygous genes you will bring out what is there. Men do you have any idea how many recessive genes a bird has? Scott to save you some time, recessive, mostly means YOU CAN NOT SEE IT, thats all. Man this may realy shock some. WHAT IF YOUR COCK DOES NOT HAVE A BAD RECESSIVE GENE!!!!!!!
GENE EXPRESSION..."breeding out" is impossible in inbreeding; the bad traits will always be there hidden and ready to pop out anytime.
Any trophy room people?
Jim, how about you, answering guardia civil statement. You guys, don't dump every thing on me.
Talking about breeding out; how can you eliminate a bad trait when you are using closely related individuals with limited gene pool + similar recessive and homozygous genes imbedded in them?
Philly won..going to game 7 folks.
My incubator shorted out & burned the whole thing down. So no, not any more but have many witnesses that seen them. But, that has very little to do with inbreeding & facts lol!
But, i will make this as simple as I can.
Say you cross a straight comb with a pure pea comb. All the offspring are going to be pea combed but every one will have a recessive straight combed allele hidden as you call it.
(PP) for pea comb & (ss) for straight comb. All the offspring that are pea combed are (Ps).
Since we are talking about bro/sis mating, we will mate a pair of bro/sis together.
The offspring (F1s) out of the bro/sis will either be (PP) for pure pea comb, (ss) for straight combed & (Ps) for a pea comb dominant with a hidden recessive straight combed allele.
Now, breed the next generation, together bro/sis. Breed a (ss) straight comb to a (ss) straight comb & you just set a family of pure straight combs. You just took all pea combed birds & bred out the pea combed expression. Same thing if you breed a (PP) to a (PP). you just set a pea combed family that will never have a straight comb pop up.
Most crosses carrying both the dominant and recessive members of a pair of alleles. So, yes, you are going to get pop ups once the recessive alleles pair up. But, thru inbreeding & selection towards your desired traits, they can become Homozygous & the undesired trait will no longer exist. BRED OUT!
Once they are Homozygous for a dominant given gene, their offspring will always express it on the F1s no matter what they are bred to. This is why inbred fowl with a high level of homozygosity are the best producers compared to a crossed up ace cock that may be better in the pit.
Thanks a lot Jim.
The way i see it, the straight comb "expression" will always be carried by the peacomb progenies.The "tendency" will always be there and not totally out.
One more thing. If you watch our only loss in the 2011 January WSC you will see how close we were to getting that trophy as well. We were way ahead in that fight. Even had a leg off the other bird & then took an unlucky deadly shot. But, that is cockfighting. Especially in LK lol.
Good chatting with you!
Last edited by colt39; May 24th, 2012 at 12:34 PM.
From looks alone you will not be able to tell whether there is a recessive gene (Ps) lurking, that is why the "purists" will advise you to mate it with a sister that is also a Peacomb...If some of the offpsrings come off as straight comb then you would have gotten your answer...as the offsprings will come out as PP or Ps or ss depending on whether one or both of the parents are pure peacomb or half and half...
Last edited by malalim; May 24th, 2012 at 02:59 PM.
Unfortunately I am not a "purist" but "performance" based, and when I say performance-based it is pit-based testing The W's and L's, lest the definition of "performance" springs back again...anyways back to reading mode as I retreat back to my actual breeding and record keeping...
Last edited by malalim; May 24th, 2012 at 02:59 PM.
Remember that in the LK there is always that hail mary shot.
There are 4 of you here that i'm routing:Chrisjr,Swallow,the Yap's from Bohol and ofcourse your entry.Well #5 will be Mr. Tiny.
Hope to field a headhunter January next year...
"The fact is that no one system has proven itself superior to all other systems. And most breeders enjoy a combination of several different systems rather than relying on any one."- Frank Shy (The Best Of Narragansett,1985)
"Twenty years ago it was thought that there was only one way to achieve the goal of consistency and that was through close inbreeding or linebreeding. While the theory behind this concept is basically sound , we now know that what we are really doing, in many cases, with this method was trading health and general stamina for consistency in one or two areas."- Ron Chappell (The Professional Breeders Guide, Riverview Gamefarm)
all i care about is the ability in a family to produce winners
and be able to pass it on to the next generation
GENETIC TALK SOUNDS GOOD ON PAPER ,BUT FRANK SHY AND SEVERAL OTHERS WITH A WINNING RECORD LOTS BETTER THAN YOURS OR MINE AND 99% OF THE OTHER MEMBERS ON HERE TOO, PROVED THAT THEIR ARE MANY WAYS TO BRED FOWL WITH A HIGH WIN %
i dont care about the word pure
i dont care about color
i only care about performance
and Frank Shy was one of the master breeders and he used a totally different method than b/s mating to get fowl that can[ WIN]
Stan Wardell also bred very similar o the way Frank Shy bred TO GET WINNING FOWL IN THE PIT
THEY NEVER CARED ABOUT PURE OR LOOKS, ONLY PERFORMANCE
i will stay with the method that has been tried and proven for many many years with a recorded you or me has never equaled and probably never will
BOBBY BOLES USED CROSS BRED FOWL TOO
BOBBY BOLES , FRANK AND STAN BRED TO GET FIGHTING COCKS THAT COULD WIN AND ALL THREE WERE KNOWN TO USE CROSS COCKS IN THE BROOD PEN AND IN THE PIT!
Last edited by scott; May 24th, 2012 at 11:53 PM.
There is a 50% chance the (s) will be passed on to the offspring. By breeding to a select few sibs, 2 in 4 may carry the (s) that was inherited from the single parent bred back to. Out of the two, there is a 1 in 4 chance that the sibs from that breeding bred back will inherit an (s) from each & express the straight comb (ss). Then, the individual bred back to & his line will not be used in the future.
Process of elimination & selection.
Now, is it 100%? Sometimes yes. Will you know it is 100%? No, not with out DNA testing. But, it will get you as close as possible with out testing.
ray tell me what causes you to get culls in your fowl, you talk like you don't get any culls in your fowl
oh my bad , i forgot your fowl lack nothing so you could not possibly get a cull
i know mine lack something ,unlike yours
but me and you both know their is no perfect family of chickens and
if genetic b/s mating is so grand ,and you know so much about genetics ,then why have you not eliminated this problem after 20 years of b/s matings?
i wonder just how many people on this site truly believes that your fowl lack in nothing
even the breeders that[ are and were] way better at breeding than me or you have culls
i will stick to what has been proven to work by better breeders than me and you ray
all the genetic talk sounds good ,especially when a person wants to sell chickens and wants others to think they are pure and they all look identical
by the funny thing is that the master breeders were more concerned with building a fighting cock ,not selling chickens
and BOBBY BOLES ,FRANK SHY,STAN WARDELL THESE GUYS WERE NOT KNOWN FOR SELLING OR TRYING TO SELL THEIR FOWL AND THEY WERE TRULY KNOWN AS MASTER BREEDERS
AND RAY ,YOU AND ME BOTH HAS A LONG WAY TO GO TO CATCH UP TO ANY OF THESE GUYS AND CONSIDERED TO BE MASTER BREEDERS!
I WILL STICK TO LINE BREEDING TO THE BEST ONES EACH TIME !
Last edited by scott; May 25th, 2012 at 12:27 AM.
When Stan lived here in Oregon, he won & lost with the rest of us. Was he a good breeder, yes! was he tough, damn straight! but dominate here, no because there was a bunch of tough breeders here.
Never met Frank Shy or Bobby Boles. With that said, I think I would sweat Bobby Boles but Frank Shy, probably not.
But, here is the thing you are missing. Wouldn't you like to know why a certain trait is inherited? It does make it easier to fix or eliminate.
Also, with the exception of Bobby Boles, they were always searching for that next crossed cock to put in the brood pen. They also did not say how many ace cocks could not reproduce. They also did not tell you how many aces they produced out of 100 from a crossed cock either. Also, did they tell how the hen was bred that the ace cock was being bred to.
If you ever had talked to Stan & asked him how he kept them Whitehackles all the years, I bet he would have never said he used crossed cocks. They are still winning & they are still uniform & he did not achieve that by using crossed cocks trust me. I can walk 1/4 mile & look at some.
But, where is the Narragansett. I know a guy that got them from Frank Shy & bred them the same way. They ended up average at best & later could not win. But, they sure were tough for a couple years.
Anyhow, to each their own. I breed more like you do anyways & do not get the calculator out each time I set them up. But, it is nice to be able to use a little wisdom in genetics to get you where you want to be with a little more consistency. Also, to know why an Ace cock can't reproduce when it happens but his mother & father can.
Superfly, very true. But, it has been proven & a scientific fact that when breeding a cross, they carrying both the dominant and recessive members of a pair of alleles and are Heterozygous for the most part. Very few can out preform a straight bred cock in the brood pen.
Last edited by colt39; May 25th, 2012 at 12:42 AM.
stan schooled matt in his methods very closely
now i never said any of these men dominated this sport ,[ NO BODY DOMINATES THIS SPORT]
but they would make your ass pucker if you had to meet one of them in the pit
stan did a lot of linebreeding the same as me and you , he liked cousin to cousin,
but over a 80 year period of breeding the whitehackles, they had other bloodlines breed into them ,one bloodline was from a man in ohio
same as his hatch blood they to were crossed several times over the years
matt said anytime stan thought they needed something added ,he did it !
pure was not the goal
he would bred the new in, then breed back to his original bloodline if the blood improved the original line, continuing to line breed
if not the cross was discontinued
that all i am trying to say
there are many good ways to breed and ,you are not going to get fowl that lack nothing ,no matter how you breed
i also agree that a little knowledge in genetics won't hurt anything,just don't get to wrapped up in it and forget that the [steel] will tell you more about where you are in your breeding program than charts and calculators
just my opinion
Last edited by scott; May 25th, 2012 at 01:24 AM.
Jim also i wondered if you knew dick zidick, we talk on the phone
jerry hamlin calls me to talk chicken
both are in oregon too
there are and were several good rooster men in oregon
also my wardell hatch look like peas in a pod and they have had two types of asil bred into them ,the last time was around the year 2000 and had several bloodlines bred into them ,claret ,2 different hatches,and brownred
the last asil blood was atkinson ,the first was little spuds ,stan bred this into them not me
Last edited by scott; May 25th, 2012 at 02:00 AM.
Damn Jim, you are starting to sound like a breeder, my hat is off to you. On my sweater-asil, another reason I breed them was the old guys said asilswere head hunters, so who was I to doubt them. I will make me a sweater, that hitife s to the head and make a short knife killer. Well Sonitols do not hit to the head, ,are agressive, and break up. So much for that idea. But the out come of several breedingd was a bird at 3/4 sweater-1/4 asil was an outstanding bird. So I starter the process of HOMOZINATION. If you have a hatch and add kelso and breed back to the hatch, just exactly when do you have hatch again. Geneticaly when are they a hatch, not when you think they are a hatch again? Jim you know to get REAL consistancy you have to have homozygous genes, Take a Wardell, a little Claret and some hatch and tell us how you would breed them to achieve real consistancy, and about how long would it take. Men peas in a pod does not mean real consistancy. I can turn my sweater BLACK in 3-4 generations, will they be consistant , NOW WAY. If I add hatch to my sweaters, they will never be sweaters again IN MY LIFE TIME. So knowing genetics is not important, you decide. Captains did a lot of sailing years ago and went many places, and served many purposes. Then a man named Colombus came along and changed every thing. But at one time it was not important to them if the world was flat or round. You men can decide if knowledge is important or not. But you can stick with the old timers and say, well we did just fine not realy nowing what was hapening. Just fine , compared to what? Wonder what ever happened to cocks bread. At one time it was cutting edge keep feed.
Last edited by RayBoles; May 25th, 2012 at 03:52 AM.
Scott, I never did much puckering. Just my nature I guess. I do remember one time, I must have been only 19 or 20 I meet Dick & I was going for straight fights in the gaff. Everybody knew that if you went to the drag with him, you had an uphill battle. Anyhow, we went for over an hour & that old Whitehackle of his finally whipped me. never forget that day lol! Don't know if it was the bird or him but I would like to say both.
But, the last few years I competed before getting into trouble, in SK, he was not that tough. I smoked him right out of there fast with a Roundhead. Never seen him win many. Would i still want to go to the drag with one of them Whitehackles in Gaff, hell no lol.
Anyhow, in all them many years, i could imagine them adding something here or there & i am not saying I will never. What I am saying is like Ray said homozygous genes will give more consistency than a cross that has very little homozygosity. Or you could not call them a cross! I imagine that is why you linbreed.
The last time I seen Stan, he won a little gaff derby with Greys. Atleast I think he did. I remember the Greys winning straight fights but I also remember getting raided right then as well lol. I was heeling a bird & looked up & there stood a big cop lol. So, I stuffed a cock with one heel on in the box, threw the other one & got the hell out of there lol.
Can't remember if it was the same day or different but it was the same year if I remember right.
So, your Wardell Hatches are just a name & Stan's creation but really are no longer a Hatch? Did he say why he added something to them? I don't remember his Hatch.But, once something new was added, I bet they were not peas in a pod at that point.
As far as Jerry Hamlin, he never tested in all the years that I did. Atleast I never seen him there when I was & I went somewhere almost every week. He was more of a collector.
Last edited by colt39; May 25th, 2012 at 05:06 AM.
if yall did half as much breeding as you did writing about it,we would be up to our eyeballs in chickens
"Superfly, very true. But, it has been proven & a scientific fact that when breeding a cross, they carrying both the dominant and recessive members of a pair of alleles and are Heterozygous for the most part. Very few can out preform a straight bred cock in the brood pen."
I agree and very well understand that broodfowls has to have some degree of inbreeding in them to consistently throw good fowls. The problem in this thread is that it has been suggested that B/S mating is the only way to go about breeding fowls. The danger in this is that very few people in this thread/site actually has the means, facilities, experience and the numbers to go about B/S mating infinitely. Factor in the hot humid conditions of the PI that has bacterias and viruses always on the attack and we have a recipe for disaster. We have a family of Lemons that has been with our family for 20 plus years, I highly doubt we could have maintained their great vigor/health breeding B/S for 20 years. Does it mean that our Lemons are inferior to genetically cloned, highly uniform fowls? Certainly not...LOL
Jim ,that is thing that amazes me with the Stan Wardell bloodlines
the old cock i have here is the daddy to Matt Ketcherside's brood cock and Shannon Rodger's brood cock and i have a son and grand son in the brood pen also and they look like peas in a pod
the hens look the same way
the only difference i can see in them is the leg color some come blue legged and some come green legged
now you would think after breeding in all those different bloodlines they would not be so uniform
now as far as them being pure hatch ,no they are not ,but i don't think there are many pure sanford hatch bloodlines out their either and they were a cross to begin with too
but they are Stan Wardell hatches ,he did not care about pure
Stan's whitehackles started out as pop gleason's bloodlines ,his daddy got them direct from pop gleason in the 1920's
then later the pumpkin hulsey blood was added ,thats why you can get pumpkin colored ones in them to this day and let me tell you ,man them are some beautiful cocks ,they also come spangled
they had the w/h blood from dick wright added to them also
and some albany blood too
so they are not pure pop gleason's anymore they are stan wardell whitehackles
Stan bred back to the hen side, if he wanted to bred something into them he used a cock of a different bloodline bred over his hens
then after the first cross with the new cock ,he line bred back to the hen of his bloodline
he favored the brood hen more than a brood cock
now as to why he bred this way ,i was told that he did not believe you could in breed for many generations with out losing hybrid vigor and strength and bottom
his way may not be the best but it worked for him
i don't bred like him ,but would if it helped me have better fowl
but it is amazing how much uniformity he kept in his bloodlines with his breeding method
if he seen something he liked ,or thought it would improve his bloodline ,he tried it!
and yes i have heard dick zidick was hard to beat in the gaff especially if you had to go to the drag pit with him lol
he tells me all about his blueface and whitehackles
and i use to get nervous many years ago when meeting the big boys ,but like you now it don't bother me anymore lol
and i know hamlin and melville had their problem and you are friends with melville
but i don't care what happened between the two of them ,i have heard the same thing about melville being a collector too
but the bloodlines i have got that came from both of them do very well for me,and that is all that matters to me
jim i got a atkinson /boles pullet this year that looks like she is half jap ,legs and station like you would not beleive in an asil
she is defiantly a throw back to the old original boles cock that had jap blood in him ,i have a picture of the original cock that started this line and you can tell he has jap blood in him
bobby did not say ,he just said bred him he is a good one
he was a gift to al cabrell
Last edited by scott; May 25th, 2012 at 12:16 PM.
For some reason I always find time to read your posts as I find them quite interesting and maybe when I get to Portland one of these days in one of my travels to the US I could drop by your farm...
Now just to comment about Frank Shy and his Narrangansett fowls...by reading his book...Mr. Shy was not particularly interested in breeding for breedings' sake nor was he interested in propagating his fowls for future generations...He was very frank (pardon the pun) and honest about that...he breeds to fight...he breeds to fight for the coming fight season and nothing else...if that breeding can be propagated is a bonus, but like what he said he sometimes scratches off an entire flock so that he can produce new ones...so if someone buys his fowl for breeding then it is your own lookout...but one thing is a fact he was a successful cockfighter (relative to one's definition of successful) fighting his own produce from his breeding methods...
Again I hope everyone is doing well with their breeding and good luck with the upcoming stag derbies...
Malalim, you are welcome any time.
Don't misunderstand me. Frank Shy was truly a great cocker. I just am a person who likes fowl that i can keep for a long time with out looking for different one's to put in my brood pens.
Like. I have said, to each their own.
If we isolate the term breeder to its very core, we should be able to separate it from the winning performance of one's fowl. Many great WSC winners were never great breeders in its truest sense.
bobby boles ,stan wardell,frank shy and several other good breeders did not give a damn about [PURE, COLOR , COMB TYPE ,LEG COLOR AND NAMES ] IT MEANT NOTHING TO THESE GUYS!
AND IT DON'T MEAN NOTHING TO ME!
ALL I CARE ABOUT HAPPENING ,IS KNOWING THEY CAN WIN!
AS FOR WHAT I COMPARE THEM TO ,WOULD BE WINNERS OR LOSERS
you are trying to breed clones that you can call pure,AND TRY TO CONVINCE PEOPLE YOU HAVE THE PUREST SWEATERS ON THE PLANET
THAT LACK NOTHING
BUT YOU FIRST SAID YOU CROSSED ASIL INTO THEM TO GET A CHICKEN WITH A BETTER IMMUNE SYSTEM
NOW YOU SAY YOU CROSSED ASIL INTO THEM TO GET A SHORT KNIFE KILLER
A FAMILY THAT LACKS NOTHING WOULD NOT NEED TO BE CROSSED WITH ANYTHING ,THEY WOULD BE 100 % WINNERS IN ANY WEAPON AND HAVE NO CULLS!
I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR METHOD OF BREEDING
ON ONE HAND YOU SAY PURE HIGHLY IN BRED B/S MATINGS LACK IN NOTHING
ON THE OTHER HAND YOU SAY YOU ARE CROSSING TO GET A BETTTER CHICKEN [WHICH IS NOT A PURE CHICKEN BUT A CROSS
LOOKS LIKE TO ME RAY ,YOU ARE DOING SOME STAN,BOBBY,FRANK BREEDING TOO
WINNING IS THE GOAL IN THE END
JUST MY OPINION
OLD TIMEY BREEDER
Last edited by scott; May 26th, 2012 at 02:07 AM.