January 10th, 2004, 09:49 PM
what is better? to have a complete empty cock or the one which will have one more dropping in the pit or during the warm up? I noticed in the world famous dvd that some cocks are not empty and i think most of them won their fight. Input pls. ineed more input. input......short circuit. keep on cybercocking.
January 11th, 2004, 02:55 AM
Felisa, really it depends on the breed you are fighting and how much you know about them. I have some Hatches that will fight best when they are completely empty and a little drier, while my roundheads will fight best with a little feed and moisture in them. And this is fighting them in the Long knife. A lot will depend on what you know about your roosters.
In the WSD, when you noticed the birds dropping in the pit. I see it as a good sign because it offers them some 'relief'. It is always a good sign for them to dump before fighting.
January 11th, 2004, 09:58 AM
thanks for the quick response bullbred.nice input and it is really a big relief if you see your cock with one more dump in the pit. at least you can see that your cock might be at his highest peak. more input pls. i need more input, input, input..... keep on cybercocking. thanks
January 11th, 2004, 11:16 AM
Felisa, seeing him dump is better than he being stuck and unable to pass his feed or waste, is what I am getting at. Of course, everything must be controlled and his droppings monitored beforehand. If he is dropping regularly and with the desired type of droppings, is also a good sign. Good luck bro.
January 13th, 2004, 12:22 AM
if you will notice that your gamecock has just excreted a sort of a mucousy, white substance the size of a dime before pitting, then he is really on point.
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January 14th, 2004, 12:27 AM
Remember each cock or stag is different and will respond in different ways to the same feed or keep. Some will be sharp if they are totally empty during fight time and some may not. You must use your own best common sence and treat each cock or stag accordingly.
January 14th, 2004, 01:22 AM
If there is still time left (days) try a DRY RUN POINTING, do a very brief sparring, if he fights gud gut empty( white discharge) good for you, if not, u must not totally empty a fowl.:hombre:
January 14th, 2004, 03:52 AM
Pre Felisa, Pointing is the most critical part in cockfighting, it doesn't matter what kind of bloodline he is, Hatch, Roundhead, Sweater or Jacket hehehe! as long as you know the rule of thumb. 1st Moisture control 2nd
You should know when is your last feed before the fight 3rd Always watch the dropping very closely as Bullbred say if he is dropping regularly with the desired type of dropping it's a good money sign. Remember after *** hrs of your last feed just add a very little point feed every hr to maintain their point.
Good Luck pre! ipa gwa na ang abilidad mo bala:lol:
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January 14th, 2004, 05:45 AM
thanks me cumpadres and friends. nice advice and to keep your cock in point all the time is the most crucial part of our conditioning.indeed very good adv. and all are corekek. more input,input , input. thanks andkeep on cybercocking.
July 14th, 2005, 07:20 AM
this topic has been discussed a lot of times already. as they say, there are more than a million ways to skin a cat... and i'm sure there are as many ways to point a rooster as there are many styles of conditioning. one thing is for sure, the only way for a rooster to fight is to have him REALLY GUT EMPTY ( NOT JUST CROP EMPTY) and to have his moisture just right. now, this is where it really gets quite interesting... how do you get a rooster to empty his gut clean without drying him out too much. for sure, the pointing process is the culmination of all that we have done from the broodpens to the flying pens to the scratch pens... all those time and money spent on acquiring the best bloodlines will just go down the drain if the pointing process is not done PROPERLY. i'm sure not even the best supplements out there can give you the edge if your rooster is not properly pointed. so what's my point here... i just hope that the experts out there can give the novices some insights on their pointing process. surely, these insights will be some of the most valuable information you can give to anybody in this sport.
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July 14th, 2005, 05:02 PM
A normally, healthy cock empties its guts anywhere from 7-9 hours from feeding.
July 14th, 2005, 05:19 PM
gut empty...........are words used to describe that crop "butse" in feel and look is empty...........and to validate if they are gut empty.......is to wait and anticipate for the sign ....of little moisture droppings.......
but do they really all have to be gut empty?
do they really have to be.........on point..........on actual time of fight?
i prefer the word................"SHARP"...........rather than the words.........."on point".
sharp means...........you give more attention on how they get along..........how they move in limbering pen.........how they react on stimulus present in their nearby surroundings........
on point means..................you are more concentrated on their ............TURDS.........stool quality so to say:lol:
experience feeders...........rely mostly........on ...........FEEL........nasa humihipo yan.........you develop this skills.........that when you feel the body of any cock with your hands..........you`ll know if they are ready...........this SKILL..........can not be taught and learned completely through reading books and teachers........you`ll only earn/acquire it through experience...........lots of experience..........
and this skill............kapag nabakante ka ng matagal....hindi nakakakita at nakakahipo ng manok.....ay nawawala...........nawawala yung feel........nagiging kabisote ka sa manok:lol:..........but the basics........fundamentals..... are till there.......madali kang maka adjust
parang putting ng golf yan.......kapag praktisado ka........may feel........kapag nabakante ka........either short.........or lagpas sa butas,hahahaha.......nakowwwwwwww........double bogey......na naman.
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July 15th, 2005, 01:14 AM
this means that the intestines is also empty not only the crop and gizzard.usually when we say gut it refers to intestines.the rationale why cocks fight best when gut empty is because their blood supply is concentrated on muscle tissues.as we all know blood carries oxygen and glucose which is distributed throughout the body.now if there's still feed inside the crop or gizzard or intestines most of the blood supply goes to this parts because there is work to do which is digestion.the purpose of getting them empty is so that blood supply is shifted from these areas to the circulating system to be readily used by muscle tissues when needed.in short its more oxygen for the muscles and more glucose for energy.just my opinion.no offense meant.
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July 15th, 2005, 03:48 AM
try to get a copy of doc teddy tanchanco's conditioning. it is well laid out in regards to pointing the cocks. there were colored pictures of the droppings which will tell you the state of your cocks moisture as well as if the cock is hungry or just gut empty.
likewise, there is a conditioning method authored by emoy gorgonia ( tukaan ) in video. it is very good as well.
Lord, I know my enemies protect me from my friends...
July 15th, 2005, 05:10 AM
Pointing is not easy to do when you are fighting in hot and humid place. base on my experience you can't point it
right if they aint healthy .
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July 15th, 2005, 05:34 AM
I like to use the word, sharp as well. I also agree that you can spend thousands of dollars & the best care in the world & if you do not know how to get them sharp on fight day, you are going to spend even more money.
Getting them sharp is a combination of getting them empty, the proper rest & the right moisture.
I will repeat my self & say this. I have heard people say that a good cock will always find a way to win. Don't belive that. There are a lot of good cocks that have lost to a lessor cock because thay were not sharp.
Derbys are not won by good cocks. They are won by good feeders. Now, don't take this wrong because you need good cocks. But, give a second rate feeder ace cocks & give a good feeder second rate cocks & the good feeder will win a higher %.
Now, give a good feeder ace cocks as well & you better not bet against him or your wallet will be empty on the way home.:lol:
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July 15th, 2005, 05:35 AM
I believe Buhawi's posting. All opinions about pointing has been mostly focused on the droppings and not about the feel. I rely on the feel first then droppings. The feel is the most difficult to teach as what Buhawi has said, it is a skill learned through experience. A keen, watchful eye for the rooster's behavior in the limbering pen is also a must as emphasized by Oplod.
You learn all these things, your roosters are ready whether you are in World Slasher's, Candelaria or Davao 8M derby championship day.
These are for cocks, I don't know if these apply to Stags in the Stag Derby.
Any comments? My idol Buhawi or Oplod?
July 15th, 2005, 07:42 AM
i agree with you guys the better word is "sharpness". a well-bred rooster who is in great shape and is sharp come fight time will be hard to beat. the bottomline of the pointing process is to have them as sharp as possible. this exchange of great ideas on the pointing process will surely be helpful those guys who are just starting out or are having a hard time putting their roosters at their sharpest state possible come fight time.
July 15th, 2005, 11:53 AM
This is just my opinion... Pointing is actually what we call peak level in performance. before you start on any pointing methods to make your bird sharp come fight time, you really have to pay some tuition fee. By tuition fee i mean you have to experiment and experience some losses. The reason behind my statement is due to the fact that it takes time to know your bird really well, for that you must have seen him fight crop empty, gut empty and half empty. Though it has always been mentioned that in pointing you have to empty the bird and make sure he has the proper moisture. Not all breeds or lines fight well when gut empty, some does not move well when dry while other breeds prefer to be on the dry side. It is then important that you know your fowls very well, the advantage of fighting your own produce over a period of time is more evident as eventually you know what to do with your birds, and when not to fight him...
"Know your birds well"
July 15th, 2005, 12:44 PM
yup i aggree that pointing is the process of putting your cock at
its highest level of performance. so your cock obviously must be
in peak health, perform best at its training or conditioning
program, have the needed rest and at its lowest best fighting
emptying gut, monitoring moisture etc this is integral part of the
the skill and knowhow of the feeder or sometimes refered to as
the handler in PI plus a good cock will contribute a lot in taking
home the paycheck !
July 15th, 2005, 02:31 PM
Know your fowl
I have to agree & this is what I have always said. All fowl are different & you need to know them.
Some birds do better pulled down a bit while others do better with a bit more weight.
However, their internal organs and muscles are all the same & the moisture is one part of the pointing out process that does not change. The proper moisture will be a big part of them getting sharp & is the same for every bird.
I like mine dropping a quarter to dime size about one hour befor the weigh-in. Now, this all has to do with the amount of tempature & the humidity & may vary.
I cary a humidity-tempature guage with me. It is with the cocks in the cock house & at the show. I am their best friend & it is their second best friend.
I do dissagree that it is hard to get them sharp. It is not hard to get them sharp. The hard part is knowing when they are sharp.
You can watch their movement, the feel of their body & their dropings. The easyest, is watching their dropings. After learning the right dropings, you will want to get the feel for a sharp cock as well.
You may show up at the pit & unload your birds. Then drop them out & they are droping the way you want them to, so you put them up to rest a bit. Later on you take them out of the stalls or box & the first thing you feel is them not comming around the way you expected them to. They are not getting that corky feeling & their skin is loose. The feel is hard to explain but you will learn it in time.
The humitity is really high compared to where you came from with the cocks. You do not have a humidity- temp guage to let you know that your cocks are going to start pulling in moisture. The next time you drop them out, they are not getting sharp & the moisture is staying the same or even getting worce.
This is when you are starting to have trouble. you get them weighed up & pray that you are not called up for a while. But no, you are one of the first ones called up & you take a loss. Then latter in the day, you finally get the moisture right & get them sharp & start winning. That is all fine but that loss cost you the derby & a sack full of cash.
If they are too wet, don't drop them out every hour. Drop them out every 20 minutes untill you get it out. Once an hour may not get them right untill it is too late.
Know the rest that they can take. Some do good with less rest than others. I have heard of people blacking them out for three days. Do you know what is going to happen to one of my high strung Roundhead blacked out for three days. Well, you get my point. You will never get them sharp because they will be mentally unstable at that point.
know you birds & know the humidity & if they are good fowl, you will be hard to beat.
Doongan, good example.
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July 15th, 2005, 02:33 PM
well said bro!!!
July 15th, 2005, 02:50 PM
Just be carefull, that there is a thin line between hunger pangs and being "on point".
Buhawi is right - the feel, the observation that comes with handling birds comes with experience.
July 15th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Well said, colt. Thanks for sharing your expertise. Keep them coming.
July 15th, 2005, 05:53 PM
Like MR. Tsamp and Colt39,
had said! that's the way to do it....
balance moisture,sharp rooster and a $$$.
July 15th, 2005, 06:31 PM
pointing for me is the state where cocks are in their lesser possible weights at their greatest possible strength. Well, let us also consider cocks that need more weight or the heavy under feel for them to perform.
I am a novice conditioner and one thing I've learned when you're not that expert to feel which cock will perform, since it is not taught in any book (all they can do is guidelines/hints on what is the right feel But i believe anyone will be able to learn it through actual training), you have to base your verdict on their droppings considering and analyzing also the history of the particular cock in the 21 or 14 day keep.
I also believe that blackouting them in three days will lead to a boredom syndrome and sharpness on fight day will be hard to achieve. You have to consider all the natural animal instinct of fowls. And I used red instead of green cloth, a friend told me that cocks are color blind, they only recognize red. That's why I believe they are more comfortable in red.
July 15th, 2005, 06:44 PM
i don't think cocks are color blind, after all how they recognize the grey, white, black and dom? or anything that comes in diff. color...
July 15th, 2005, 07:26 PM
things we forget, we struggled thru our conditioning and at the last couple of days we try to get our cocks on point/sharp,
but then, how many time did we just pick a cock from the string yard, or the fly pen to spar, (derby selection) and they seems to be unbeatable, they performed the way we dream them to perform in the pit. (BUT THEN THIS IS CHICKEN FIGHTING) i remember what my dad use to say, (ONCE YOU BEGIN, BEGIN AGAIN) wish i would remember what i did to make them move this way.
July 15th, 2005, 07:33 PM
Your dad is (was, God forbid) a smart guy!
I love that saying and I use it all the time.
July 15th, 2005, 08:55 PM
i think the last 3 days feeds before fight should be cut down gradually ( give mainly carbohydrates getting rid of feed not digested easily) then approximately 18-24 before fight time the fowl should not be given any feed w/c make them a little on the hungry side since they get nothing (in resting stall) they just settle down become very quite and start to hibernate before you know it there coming on point (cut down on water too depending on the weather)just keep an eye on their droppings to control moisture on your chicken . iam not expert on this one just an idea to share