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Thread: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

  
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    Senior Member roundhead's Avatar
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    controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    first off, i am what you can describe as a typical urban filipino joe average cocker and for you stateside folks who does not know what that means is that since cockfighting is legal where we live, we do not need to have a farm just to have chickens, just a small backyard and coops with a couple of fly pens and cool neighbors that are compliant with roosters crowing. i am the type of cocker who believes that one should know most of the aspects, not all because i dont breed and have no intention because we have a surplus supply of cocks. one aspect is knife tying, i mean you can literally go to any pit and gaffers are all over the place for a small fee. well since that world slashers event where the hawaiians trashed a good number of locals, 4 to 5 inch average length knives has become the norm that is openly not discussed and of course most cocks now have that long legs and shank combination that can of course accomodate the longer length, it just happens that an acquaintance of mine has to go to the USA just to obtain dead game blood(!). so i happen to open up this seemingly can of worms with an old time gaffer who of course in tune with the trend. i personally like or use 3 up to 3 3/4 knives and being caught up in one instance forgot to forge an agreement with an opponent that used a much longer knife, i lost and everybody who bet on my cock politely and nicely mentioned about my shorter knife, my cock incidentally also permanently disabled my opponent, but being a conciencious cocker i felt very bad about the bettors who put their trust in me, basically i felt that i did not look out for their interest which makes me end up feeling like a jerk! now before ye cast your stones on me, knife length in the pits are rarely and never discussed, it is a tiny wink wink loophole that anyone can exploit even in the big leagues. so i asked my old timer gaffer friend and the enigmatic response was "good luck in matching" because it is not discussed and the "correct" length will be attached says he. "correct length"?!?! is that reasonable explanation enough? okay what if the "correct" length that can be accomodated on my cock is 6inches and my opponent 4 1/2? that is a 1 1/2 inch advantage wont you agree? geez that is a mexicAn knife fight versus a sharpened spur(postiza), the one with the knife will get my bet you can be sure with that. i believe this religion or tradition should be kept clean and free from this "loop hole". what say you? if you have read this and kept it to yourself then you have in your heart a space for taking advantage of your fellow man. sooner or later maybe some folks will start breeding turkeys with their gamefowl and everybody will end up tying samurais! samurai chicken?

    point is; knife length should be discussed and agreed upon any discrepancy should increase the odds on one side or even maybe used as a negotiating tool and should be announced when bets are taken in, to at least protect the interests of the bettors, the bettors wheter you are a betting man or not are just as important and integral to the sport. would you go to a knife fight with a bowie versus someone with a broad sword?

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    Senior Member jungold's Avatar
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    Wink Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Quote Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
    first off, i am what you can describe as a typical urban filipino joe average cocker and for you stateside folks who does not know what that means is that since cockfighting is legal where we live, we do not need to have a farm just to have chickens, just a small backyard and coops with a couple of fly pens and cool neighbors that are compliant with roosters crowing. i am the type of cocker who believes that one should know most of the aspects, not all because i dont breed and have no intention because we have a surplus supply of cocks. one aspect is knife tying, i mean you can literally go to any pit and gaffers are all over the place for a small fee. well since that world slashers event where the hawaiians trashed a good number of locals, 4 to 5 inch average length knives has become the norm that is openly not discussed and of course most cocks now have that long legs and shank combination that can of course accomodate the longer length, it just happens that an acquaintance of mine has to go to the USA just to obtain dead game blood(!). so i happen to open up this seemingly can of worms with an old time gaffer who of course in tune with the trend. i personally like or use 3 up to 3 3/4 knives and being caught up in one instance forgot to forge an agreement with an opponent that used a much longer knife, i lost and everybody who bet on my cock politely and nicely mentioned about my shorter knife, my cock incidentally also permanently disabled my opponent, but being a conciencious cocker i felt very bad about the bettors who put their trust in me, basically i felt that i did not look out for their interest which makes me end up feeling like a jerk! now before ye cast your stones on me, knife length in the pits are rarely and never discussed, it is a tiny wink wink loophole that anyone can exploit even in the big leagues. so i asked my old timer gaffer friend and the enigmatic response was "good luck in matching" because it is not discussed and the "correct" length will be attached says he. "correct length"?!?! is that reasonable explanation enough? okay what if the "correct" length that can be accomodated on my cock is 6inches and my opponent 4 1/2? that is a 1 1/2 inch advantage wont you agree? geez that is a mexicAn knife fight versus a sharpened spur(postiza), the one with the knife will get my bet you can be sure with that. i believe this religion or tradition should be kept clean and free from this "loop hole". what say you? if you have read this and kept it to yourself then you have in your heart a space for taking advantage of your fellow man. sooner or later maybe some folks will start breeding turkeys with their gamefowl and everybody will end up tying samurais! samurai chicken?

    point is; knife length should be discussed and agreed upon any discrepancy should increase the odds on one side or even maybe used as a negotiating tool and should be announced when bets are taken in, to at least protect the interests of the bettors, the bettors wheter you are a betting man or not are just as important and integral to the sport. would you go to a knife fight with a bowie versus someone with a broad sword?

    That's why i'm going for Short Knife , no more thrill on Long Knife's............

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    Member k2bas's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Roundhead if you feel you should have won the fight will a longer knife, why not use a long. Ask the gaffer to install a long one you prefer. Win or lose in the pit is to enjoy the sport. I don't give damn about what other people will say, you will not get any comment if you have won the fight. What do you mean protection of bettor? It the same as in casino the house is always ahead. if someone complain about your knife tell them not to bet on your chicken. I know two gaffer when I was growing up both are my mom's brother. One use a long knife and the other exact length. What is funny if my uncle with the long knife win he get praise and same thing goes for my other uncle. This was during the 90's but if they lose they complain the knife is to long or to short. There is one thing l learn in cockfight is you cannot win them all and it also apply to people.

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    Senior Member Mudflop's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    I tend to disagree with using longer knives for an advantage. Not all families of fowl can utilize a 5 or 6 inch knife. For the type of fowl I have seen at the WSC a longer knife is so unforgiving. But for the type of fowl I see in Mexico a shorter knife works best.

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    Senior Member roundhead's Avatar
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    Post Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Quote Originally Posted by k2bas View Post
    Roundhead if you feel you should have won the fight will a longer knife, why not use a long. Ask the gaffer to install a long one you prefer. Win or lose in the pit is to enjoy the sport. I don't give damn about what other people will say, you will not get any comment if you have won the fight. What do you mean protection of bettor? It the same as in casino the house is always ahead. if someone complain about your knife tell them not to bet on your chicken. I know two gaffer when I was growing up both are my mom's brother. One use a long knife and the other exact length. What is funny if my uncle with the long knife win he get praise and same thing goes for my other uncle. This was during the 90's but if they lose they complain the knife is to long or to short. There is one thing l learn in cockfight is you cannot win them all and it also apply to people.
    sir i think you kinda missed the marker mile by a quarter mile three yards and about 8 inches. no i did not suggest that i would have won the fight, in fact it made me think deep when i received the seemingly constructive criticism i received from bettors that indeed an inch to give away is still an advantage.

    would you fight your cock with a 1 inch blade against someone with a 3 inch knife? most of the guys here will probably say that you flipped your wig if you do, because that is a 2 inch advantage from my last calculations.

    now i am not saying that this will change overnight or will be instituted with the big time derby promoters, but an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage dont you think so?

    at this point in time i think we should strengthen our numbers even if we think we are invincible.

    a friend who goes to the pits just to bet on occasion once told me that sabong/cockfighting is the fairest because you only have to choose which bird to bet on. now what if i tell this guy that the blades are not the same length? or that some may give a 1/2, inch or two. are the bet takers aware or in the know, then they should be more agressive in the odds then.

    the cock may have longer legs and shanks to connect but the one that kills the opponent is the knife attached--no deviation from this.
    Last edited by roundhead; November 19th, 2012 at 11:05 AM. Reason: corrections

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Very good topic. We always talk about this in our regular cocker session. Different point of views. I am in favor of regulating. To some they don't want. They said it is a matter of preference. I understand the other side also since they both have their advantages and disadvatages ( long vs short ). Its definitely a good topic here in sabong.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    In a very free country where the sport is very legal like the Philippines, issues of this matter should never be a hindrance to enjoy it. We have to remember that this sport is basically a game of skill based on "thousands" of differing opinions out there. Length of knife is just one of them but, being a freedom loving people, we have the liberty to use any length that we think(our opinion) will work very well for us or to our advantage. So being backed up by personal opinion, individual preference regarding this matter is the best rule as far as I'm concern.
    I do think also that it is wrong to go play the game to "please" the public or bettors. Be in this sport for your enjoyment but be adaptable to constructive criticisms for personal improvement. Just my 2 cents.

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    Senior Member jundyjongco's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Sabong is game sport...do what best in order to win ! having long knife or short knife, i think is not the subject! bottom line is be flexible, counter your opponent,what ever size knife they are using?

    happy cocking ....

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    Member k2bas's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Roundhead I think you miss my point. What I said its always preference on knife length. No one is stupid to have 1 inch and opponent 3 inches. But if the difference is half an inch of length, I don't really mind. Now if you want to please the bettor that your problem. It will be a controversy why because if your opponent want a exact one size and you want a longer one. Let just say the give and take is 1/4 inch as what you say Maybe fair. How can you fix the problem ? It will be a long day in the pit. If the opponent want 10 inches that's his choice and I respect it. Just enjoy the sport it's free and legal in the Philippines. Please don't impose to much regulation, let just leave that in North America. Everytime I fight in a barrio in my province Basilan, really enjoy it because you will see all this routine the people perform each fight and what length of knife. After the fight you shake hands and enjoyed the sport.

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    Member k2bas's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Roundhead when I said if you want to please the bettor that's your problem. I don't mean any disrespect toward you. My point in there I go to the pit and enjoy and remove stress from work. If other people think I should used a longer knife that Is their choice. I will still go to the pit with my routine and enjoy the sport without added stress. Goodluck on your fight.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Quote Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
    sir i think you kinda missed the marker mile by a quarter mile three yards and about 8 inches. no i did not suggest that i would have won the fight, in fact it made me think deep when i received the seemingly constructive criticism i received from bettors that indeed an inch to give away is still an advantage.

    would you fight your cock with a 1 inch blade against someone with a 3 inch knife? most of the guys here will probably say that you flipped your wig if you do, because that is a 2 inch advantage from my last calculations.

    now i am not saying that this will change overnight or will be instituted with the big time derby promoters, but an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage dont you think so?

    at this point in time i think we should strengthen our numbers even if we think we are invincible.

    a friend who goes to the pits just to bet on occasion once told me that sabong/cockfighting is the fairest because you only have to choose which bird to bet on. now what if i tell this guy that the blades are not the same length? or that some may give a 1/2, inch or two. are the bet takers aware or in the know, then they should be more agressive in the odds then.

    the cock may have longer legs and shanks to connect but the one that kills the opponent is the knife attached--no deviation from this.
    Roundhead,

    With all due respect, a very long knife is not an advantage at all, in fact it is a liability... If you attach a knife longer than what your bird can use, it becomes a liability. In terms of alignment, the longer knives are more unforgiving which renders them useless for those who are not used to using them. Also, you will see that in the ground fight, the longer knives are more of a disadvantage than an edge... Just my two cents.

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    Senior Member pigafetta08's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Yes, and may i add..
    Longer knives require a narrower design if you wanna see the results you expect and a lower point if not midpoint atleast..
    I may not know Mr. Banton Spur too much, but the two occasions i've met him i already knew that he is a Grand Master not only in knife tying but also cocking in general..
    He even gave me an unbelievable boot that is semi automatic like my old socket knives that is like a bum/lazy boy technique (that requires a lot of talent/experience to have)
    I'm with him on this one, i too am not a fan of very long knives..

    Being someone who understands hypovolemia and the nature of animal body and it's fate being stricken with wounds, i would rather have lower pointed knives that is shorter than the usual "trendy" types..

    I use long ones (as in 1-2 back leg scales down the feather and knee junction measure) but i make sure they are slim and had low pointed but strong pyramidal tips..

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Hi everyone. Here in PI cockpit arenas, it is always given that we fight our chicken with long knife unless there was an agreement prior to the actual pitting. Well, i guess it is up to the bird's owner whether or not to put an average/standard Lk or oversize lk (longer that his chicken's leg size). I think it will go down to how well you know your chicken's fighting style.

    And so, in my opinion, our advantage really lies on how well we know our chicken and to the competence of our gaffer.

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    Senior Member roundhead's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    well at the very least we are opening up a discussion here.

    not that i want to "please" the bettors, its just looking for their interests as well as yours. its like you are selling your portfolio which is the cock in question and all the attributes including the weapon how it is set etc, in the stock market for instance and then you have players who have inside information.

    i think everybody knows for the most part that the longer knife is used to kill in the air and tend to have a disadvantage when finishing a downed opponent.

    i guess i am for regulation or the very least has to be standardized practice by the pit operators to ensure that everything will be even in the end, whether taking/announcing the odds

    a factor still equates to odds

    and one fact still remains true which is the knife is the one that kills,

    now obviously i cannot make anyone change their minds about this issue overnight, like i said it maybe opening a can of worms. funny though i posted the same thread in the filipino section and there were a number of hits and yet no one responded.

    hmmmm, i hope it is not a sad day for the sport/tradition(much exploited loophole)
    Last edited by roundhead; November 19th, 2012 at 11:52 PM. Reason: correction

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    Member k2bas's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Roundhead it's a good healthy discussion but unless all people agree that having a long knife is really advantageous then it will really hard to regulate.

    What breed do you have ?

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    My take, based on decades of experience, is that the gamblers are looking for any advantage beyond the rooster. Personally, I think that the outcome of a cockfight should be determined by the roosters involved, NOT by the length or style of knife. What ever happened to fairness in our sport? Regulating the length and style will place the emphasis back on the feathered combatants. Once we do this we can start weeding out the cheaters.

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    Senior Member JWPurdy's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Quote Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
    i guess i am for regulation or the very least has to be standardized practice by the pit operators to ensure that everything will be even in the end, whether taking/announcing the odds
    I agree - the pits should set a maximum limit. In Mexico and central America there is a maximum size limit on the length of short knives. It's a rule that promotes fairness and everyone agrees. As Guamasil said, the outcome should be determined the roosters involved.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    I'm more for the "no limits" rule. I love it when my opponent has an extra long knife that he can't handle and trips over. And my rooster has a perfect length knife that is suitable for his size/weight. It's pretty much a sure win for me.

    I say leave the "choose your length" rule. It separates the ones that know how to cockfight from the ones that are just trying to luck out. And more people think "longer is better" so that works out just fine for me

    Thanks.

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    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Just a thought. If anyone will put up 5 stags and will use 6 inch knives (minimum) on all of them and fight an extra long vs. old fashioned length main - I would love to put up a matching 5 stags that will just use 3.5 inch knives (maximum). that will give him a 2.5 inch advantage.

    We just match the stags by weight - blindly and give it a go. maybe follow NFGB weights of min 1.7 and max 2.2 with plus minus 35 grams to match. just post the weights of the birds and I will find them a match.

    This can be a no cash experiment or anything $1,000 or less - just to cover the cost of the roosters will be ok. We can do it this dec 9 at the next TariTari session. on second thought, just to make this come true, i would offer a logro :-) the 6+ inch knives $800 will win $1,000 if they score more than the 3.5 inchers :-) and just to sweeten it further, I will donate a trophy commemorating this historic event :-)

    This should be fun.

    We can video and post here in this thread!!! I can provide SloMo video so we all see why and how the wins or losses happened!
    Last edited by jailbird; November 20th, 2012 at 12:59 PM.

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    Senior Member roundhead's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    actually I really am for Gamefowl performance that is why i dont subscribe to those fastest kill or fastest win though that is the format of my favorite pit.

    in fact i wont even hesitate pitting my low stationed cocks against high ones as long as knives are same length and of course ask for odds.

    actually if i am to be asked, i really do want to promote this sport some more to the Filipino youth, i myself do not come from a line of cockers or cocking royalty like some of you guys.

    an advantage seemingly unfair is still an unfair advantage both ways.

    the bettors fill the rafters, if only cockers will be the only ones in the pits then maybe we can all stretch on any given sunday and those with the big difference might not even have a go.

    of course i am not trying to change the world here but at least the thought was for the common good.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    i experienced losing to a long knife once, i thought i was going to lose if i'm using my standard 2 3/4 inches against a 4 inches knife. then i ask a friend with a 4 inches knife to tie them on my stag. i loss easily. my stag shuffles a lot but the knife just didn't connect. then, i fought another 4 inches knifed stag, this time i used my standard length, the 2 3/4 inches, my stag killed the opponent at the first flight.

    my opinion, the length/design of knife depends on the fowls, some can can carry long knife, some are not.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Is extra long knife an advantage? do we have to regulate the length of knives? my personal opinion is both...No. I have lost and won fights on both set of knives. I concur with other views that it should be a matter of choice or preference of the owner and bettors. Others dont subscribe to extra long knives thus they bet on the shorter knives, and vise versa. I myself would adjust tying my knives. If i lose using extra long knives, then i would switch to short or standard knives. In both cases, results remain the same. Standard or extra long knives, youd still get the result of W or L. Ive visited a big time cocker and weve discussed this SAMURAI ( as it is referred to nowadays) For more than three decades fighting in the big league, he still preferred the standard knives and maintain a respectable record up to now. Ive also witnessed a former basketball player fighting his rooster with extra long knives, with excellent record to boot, but does not win all the fights. Nonetheless, both sportsmen have my highest respect for they exercise their freedom and they look forward for the advancement of the sport.

    So why regulate when you have the freedom and the choice to adopt what you believe will advance your chances of winning? As for me, ill stick with my standard 3.5 - 4.5 inch knives. I wont dare tying an 8 inch knife on my rooster even if i am given that chance - as i have my preference.

    My two cents. peace!
    Last edited by warlord; November 20th, 2012 at 11:02 PM.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Doesn't bother me at all.and not even controversial,cos it is an old-age weapon used by our feathered warriors here in Phil,and that's make our sabong fast,intense and deadly.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    what happened to the days when they would match the knife to the size of the leg?

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    There is no controversy if nobody is allowing you to use the longest knife that you think will kill the fastest. But problems will arise for sure if, some gaffers are allowed to use 5 or 6 inch knives and you are not allowed to use them. Proper selection of roosters for the derbies could ease the difference in knife lengths. Hackfights are everywhere for lower stationed roosters thus shorter knives to be used. Enjoy freedom of choice while you may.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Roundhead, I have a question. I have been around the long knife for many years and know many filipino folks. All of them nice folks with very definite opinions on what knife to use on a bird. They make it plain that one has to select the correct knife for the bird they are tying it on, along with the correct setting, considering the alignment of the birds leg. They are very, very sure of what they are doing. Are they right? If just putting a giant knife on a bird gives it an advantage, as it appears you seem to think, then there goes all the idea of matching knives and legs, down the drain. Either it is a game of skill or a game of length. If it turns out to be a game of skill in tying a knife, then it is very complicated and is actually a science in its own right. If it is a game of who has the longest knife, then any fool can get a great big knife and have an advantage over all that skill. Your complaining makes no sense to me. I do have an opinion. I think it is a game of skill. I could care less what length of knife or gaff my opponents tie on their birds. I always use what I think the bird can use best, in the air and on the ground. There should be no rules to change anything. Let the competition take care of itself. Many years ago, say in world war one. The Armies used a very long bayonet on their rifles. After experimenting with that type of weapon, it proved out that a shorter bayonet was more lethal. The long ones are more intimidating, the short ones are easier to kill with. A lot of research went into this same discussion on knives used on people. I think the same research applies to birds. I will not put a 6" gaff or knife on any of my birds. I will be happy if my opponent put them on his.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Quote Originally Posted by FILAMEX View Post
    There is no controversy if nobody is allowing you to use the longest knife that you think will kill the fastest. But problems will arise for sure if, some gaffers are allowed to use 5 or 6 inch knives and you are not allowed to use them. Proper selection of roosters for the derbies could ease the difference in knife lengths. Hackfights are everywhere for lower stationed roosters thus shorter knives to be used. Enjoy freedom of choice while you may.
    Ooppss....first sentence should have been,"There is no controversy if nobody is NOT allowing you or preventing you from using the longest knife that you think will kill the fastest".

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Ray View Post
    Roundhead, I have a question. I have been around the long knife for many years and know many filipino folks. All of them nice folks with very definite opinions on what knife to use on a bird. They make it plain that one has to select the correct knife for the bird they are tying it on, along with the correct setting, considering the alignment of the birds leg. They are very, very sure of what they are doing. Are they right? If just putting a giant knife on a bird gives it an advantage, as it appears you seem to think, then there goes all the idea of matching knives and legs, down the drain. Either it is a game of skill or a game of length. If it turns out to be a game of skill in tying a knife, then it is very complicated and is actually a science in its own right. If it is a game of who has the longest knife, then any fool can get a great big knife and have an advantage over all that skill. Your complaining makes no sense to me. I do have an opinion. I think it is a game of skill. I could care less what length of knife or gaff my opponents tie on their birds. I always use what I think the bird can use best, in the air and on the ground. There should be no rules to change anything. Let the competition take care of itself. Many years ago, say in world war one. The Armies used a very long bayonet on their rifles. After experimenting with that type of weapon, it proved out that a shorter bayonet was more lethal. The long ones are more intimidating, the short ones are easier to kill with. A lot of research went into this same discussion on knives used on people. I think the same research applies to birds. I will not put a 6" gaff or knife on any of my birds. I will be happy if my opponent put them on his.
    Some words of wisdom from a decent and well respected cocker.

    How's everything with you, Mr. Ray ?

  33. #29
    Senior Member jailbird's Avatar
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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    Freedom of choice. If you are intimidated by long knives, then join the SK derbies. Only 1.5 inch max. Very entertaining and just as exciting. And getting popular too.

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    Re: controversial topic: knife length in philippine circuits

    When it was legal here i tied the flip knife the T-Bolt 4' socket came out i never lost to that knife i saw them trip on it fall over it and get slauthered saw some get hung up and slaughtered make it legal here and bring those 4" knives here ill be money ahead again lol KB

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