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    Member Gallo88's Avatar
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    Ok, so reading The Game Fowl Breeders Manual Vol.1 by Mr. Troiano. In one of the sections he states that one could create two lines of fowl just from one cock and one hen with the result of the line from the cock side and one from the hen. Now I understand how this works, my question is can this be done with three birds of different blood? One cock of one blood, a hen of another, and yet another hen of another, or would this be to difficult to keep track of? Keep in mind all three birds will be used to create one consistent line of fowl, your own.

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    Senior Member NESON's Avatar
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    I believe it is the same but i think you can make more than two say you have a kelso cock hatch hen and grey hen you would breed the cock over both hens and breed stags back to mom creating two then you can take pullets from both matings and cross back to cock CREATING TWO MORE watering down the hen side putting more kelso so you end up with heavy kelso/ lite hatch blood heavy kelso/ lite grey blood from cock mating heavy hatch/ lite kelso blood heavy grey/ lite kelso blood on the hen side i like crosses it how i believe you make your own blood any way thats what im trying someone correct me if i am wrong

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    Senior Member NESON's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    I got the second book of kennys but havnt read it to much reading for me i get more out trying it for myself

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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by NESON View Post
    I believe it is the same but i think you can make more than two say you have a kelso cock hatch hen and grey hen you would breed the cock over both hens and breed stags back to mom creating two then you can take pullets from both matings and cross back to cock CREATING TWO MORE watering down the hen side putting more kelso so you end up with heavy kelso/ lite hatch blood heavy kelso/ lite grey blood from cock mating heavy hatch/ lite kelso blood heavy grey/ lite kelso blood on the hen side i like crosses it how i believe you make your own blood any way thats what im trying someone correct me if i am wrong
    I understand what you're saying? But at what time would you cross the lines to creat one?

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    Senior Member NESON's Avatar
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    ???? I think you can breed them that way and call it your own some say at the fifth mating back to parent then cross with the other father daughter to mother son mating i think but you can do bro sis mating also so it gets complicated but for me it would have to be a good nick to keep it going trial and error i aint no walter kelso just a back yard breeder if there all mixed up i would just keep what proves keeping and cull which ones dont if your getting that serious id recomend getting pure trios cause to try all that from just random birds sounds like a waste of time i mean dont get me wrong but why would you cross them before you actully need too?

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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by NESON View Post
    ???? I think you can breed them that way and call it your own some say at the fifth mating back to parent then cross with the other father daughter to mother son mating i think but you can do bro sis mating also so it gets complicated but for me it would have to be a good nick to keep it going trial and error i aint no walter kelso just a back yard breeder if there all mixed up i would just keep what proves keeping and cull which ones dont if your getting that serious id recomend getting pure trios cause to try all that from just random birds sounds like a waste of time i mean dont get me wrong but why would you cross them before you actully need too?
    The main point is to create a "new" line of fowl, one that when bred produces a consistent looking/acting fowl. Much in the same way that we can tell that a hatch is a hatch, and a sweater is a sweater, etc. Now I know it'll take LOTS and LOTS of time, and patience, but it's something I believe can be done, much like our forefathers did with fowl of yesterday, which in turn helped us have the birds of today. And yes I agree with using fowl of good stock, there is no room for mediocre birds when taking on something like this.
    Last edited by Gallo88; May 1st, 2013 at 06:54 AM.

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    Senior Member NESON's Avatar
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    Yeah man sorry. If your breeding for a uniform look id go with kenny's way im looking for performance, i would guess you'd keep what traits your looking for and cull what your not and keep breeding what looks apealing to you??? God luck man i hope you get what your looking for try searching breeding for uniform

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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by NESON View Post
    Yeah man sorry. If your breeding for a uniform look id go with kenny's way im looking for performance, i would guess you'd keep what traits your looking for and cull what your not and keep breeding what looks apealing to you??? God luck man i hope you get what your looking for try searching breeding for uniform
    I'm not looking just for uniformity, but also performance. I know most will say "well you can't have both" blah, blah, and I am not looking for perfection, as there is no such thing when doing this, bu I am looking for a fine balance between the two. We have so many types of blood lines, different hatch, sweaters, greys etc, and all of them at one point or another went through a process of selection, testing, culling, etc untill each individual breeder obtained what they were looking for, not only looks wise, but also performance. Example Mr. Ruble when creating his hatch went through some of these steps to creating "his" line of fowl. His fowl up till now have a certain type look, and have a certain type of performance.

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    Re: Breeding!?

    only thing i can tell that make sure what type of rooster you want cause you goiing to breed twice as many of him, good luck im trying the same with leipers

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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenj View Post
    only thing i can tell that make sure what type of rooster you want cause you goiing to breed twice as many of him, good luck im trying the same with leipers
    Thank you, and good luck as well!!!

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    Re: Breeding!?

    If you value performance and uniformity my best advice would be to pick one and stick with it. You create more problems doing both. Let the winners pick your uniformity for you, as a friend would say.

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    Senior Member Golden Buddha's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo88 View Post
    The main point is to create a "new" line of fowl, one that when bred produces a consistent looking/acting fowl. Much in the same way that we can tell that a hatch is a hatch, and a sweater is a sweater, etc. Now I know it'll take LOTS and LOTS of time, and patience, but it's something I believe can be done, much like our forefathers did with fowl of yesterday, which in turn helped us have the birds of today. And yes I agree with using fowl of good stock, there is no room for mediocre birds when taking on something like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo88 View Post
    I'm not looking just for uniformity, but also performance. I know most will say "well you can't have both" blah, blah, and I am not looking for perfection, as there is no such thing when doing this, bu I am looking for a fine balance between the two. We have so many types of blood lines, different hatch, sweaters, greys etc, and all of them at one point or another went through a process of selection, testing, culling, etc untill each individual breeder obtained what they were looking for, not only looks wise, but also performance. Example Mr. Ruble when creating his hatch went through some of these steps to creating "his" line of fowl. His fowl up till now have a certain type look, and have a certain type of performance.

    This is also my thinking also, because when you cross say a Hatch to a Kelso, the offsprings are not uniform in looks and fighting style. Some will be like the Hatch, some will be like the kelso and some will be something in between!
    I happen to stumble on a "NICK", Brownred X Hatch, that have an excellent win-loss record. When cross to either Roundhead or sweater for a 3-way , they produce offsprings with more consistent fighting style!
    I then tried to set this Brownred X Hatch into my "Own Strain"!!! This "STRAIN" breaks higher than hatches although their other traits most resembles Hatches. Not perfect, not yet, still a work in progress but ive played with them for more than 10 years.
    The Brownred Cock is from Mel Simms and the hen is a Gilmore Hatch from Sue Wilson.
    What i want to hear from anyone is, if ever, they have set a Strain, i want to check notes with them on the topic: HOW TO SET A STRAIN?!!
    Thanks for any Info!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Buddha View Post
    This is also my thinking also, because when you cross say a Hatch to a Kelso, the offsprings are not uniform in looks and fighting style. Some will be like the Hatch, some will be like the kelso and some will be something in between!
    I happen to stumble on a "NICK", Brownred X Hatch, that have an excellent win-loss record. When cross to either Roundhead or sweater for a 3-way , they produce offsprings with more consistent fighting style!
    I then tried to set this Brownred X Hatch into my "Own Strain"!!! This "STRAIN" breaks higher than hatches although their other traits most resembles Hatches. Not perfect, not yet, still a work in progress but ive played with them for more than 10 years.
    The Brownred Cock is from Mel Simms and the hen is a Gilmore Hatch from Sue Wilson.
    What i want to hear from anyone is, if ever, they have set a Strain, i want to check notes with them on the topic: HOW TO SET A STRAIN?!!
    Thanks for any Info!!!
    Howdy GB,
    If you don't mind my asking, how many pure stags and pullets of your "GB Hatch" strain are you intending to keep every year? And how many pairs of full nest BS are you mating each year (of this strain) to get the number of stags and pullets you intend to keep each year?
    Thank you much.

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    Member Gallo88's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Buddha View Post
    This is also my thinking also, because when you cross say a Hatch to a Kelso, the offsprings are not uniform in looks and fighting style. Some will be like the Hatch, some will be like the kelso and some will be something in between!
    I happen to stumble on a "NICK", Brownred X Hatch, that have an excellent win-loss record. When cross to either Roundhead or sweater for a 3-way , they produce offsprings with more consistent fighting style!
    I then tried to set this Brownred X Hatch into my "Own Strain"!!! This "STRAIN" breaks higher than hatches although their other traits most resembles Hatches. Not perfect, not yet, still a work in progress but ive played with them for more than 10 years.
    The Brownred Cock is from Mel Simms and the hen is a Gilmore Hatch from Sue Wilson.
    What i want to hear from anyone is, if ever, they have set a Strain, i want to check notes with them on the topic: HOW TO SET A STRAIN?!!
    Thanks for any Info!!!
    Have you taken your three way cross further than one or two generations? lets say a three way cross brother, sister mating, than select the best stag and pullet from that breeding and put them back on the grandparents? If so what did you notice by doing this?

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    Re: Breeding!?

    This is what works for me. He is talking about breeding a Rooster and Hen of the same bloodline. You then breed line breed the best hens to the father that makes 1 line I would call them the father line. Then you do the same exact thing by breeding the best roosters to there mom that would make them line 2 the hen line. Now you have 2 separate families keep breeding them this way. And over time both families will change start to show certain characteristics that will intensify 1 family my be higher station the other family might be faster. Which the 2 families are related but they become more distantly related. Then from there you can cross Line 1 over Line 2 and get a 3rd family. Which may be everything you desire in your fowl. If it is it will be alot easier to reproduce these birds. Now is the the time to make your battle crosses since you are using a family that you know very well by now and know what to expect from them. Pick your best hens from each line in this family single mate each of the hens to the best brood cock you can obtain. Breed him to each one of these hens mark them and test them then you will know what family nick's best with the Broodcock.

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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chocolategrey View Post
    This is what works for me. He is talking about breeding a Rooster and Hen of the same bloodline. You then breed line breed the best hens to the father that makes 1 line I would call them the father line. Then you do the same exact thing by breeding the best roosters to there mom that would make them line 2 the hen line. Now you have 2 separate families keep breeding them this way. And over time both families will change start to show certain characteristics that will intensify 1 family my be higher station the other family might be faster. Which the 2 families are related but they become more distantly related. Then from there you can cross Line 1 over Line 2 and get a 3rd family. Which may be everything you desire in your fowl. If it is it will be alot easier to reproduce these birds. Now is the the time to make your battle crosses since you are using a family that you know very well by now and know what to expect from them. Pick your best hens from each line in this family single mate each of the hens to the best brood cock you can obtain. Breed him to each one of these hens mark them and test them then you will know what family nick's best with the Broodcock.
    Yea what he said lol thank you, You put it in better words than I could of.

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    Senior Member Golden Buddha's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by FILAMEX View Post
    Howdy GB,
    If you don't mind my asking, how many pure stags and pullets of your "GB Hatch" strain are you intending to keep every year? And how many pairs of full nest BS are you mating each year (of this strain) to get the number of stags and pullets you intend to keep each year?
    Thank you much.

    Hey Bud, i'm fine, glad you'll still find this topic worthwhile. Me, i always believe in this sport, Success comes from the Broodyard, so i put emphasis on breeding.
    I used to maintain 6 lines. I cut it down to 4 lines, i felt they're quite stabilized by now at 5th gen. Also i have not encountered problem(degeneration) so far, so i reduced my lines, to give spaced for my Sweaters.
    I hatched a clutch for each line everytime i inbreed. They are hen-hatched, and then free them on the ranged. They are marked, toe and nose, so time for penning, i can identify them.
    I do selection when stags and pullets are 10 months old. At least a pair for each line, if i cant find a good specimen on a line, i will hatched another clutched on that line. I keep extra pullets whenever i find good ones. This pullets are for crossing. So my target is at least 4 stags and 10pullets on my "Cassius Clays" as i fondly call them!
    As i mention earlier, i dont inbreed yearly, especially now that i am not showing a lot. I inbreed when my stocks are about 3 years old. I use them till about 4 years old, unless i find a BC or BH that are super producer, they will stay longer, and usually produce the number 1 line!
    At 5th Gen, i might try my goal of crossing lines to produce "a battlecross within this Strain", Wished me Luck Bud, if i'm successfull, i have the strain that are brood fowl and can be fought at the same time!!

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    Senior Member Golden Buddha's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo88 View Post
    Have you taken your three way cross further than one or two generations? lets say a three way cross brother, sister mating, than select the best stag and pullet from that breeding and put them back on the grandparents? If so what did you notice by doing this?
    I dont go beyond 3-way, i usually cull all pullets when i reconnized their sexes. I do B/S on the First Cross!

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    I have read kenny's second book and decided to try breeding two different lines of fowl with a yl hatch cock and gl hatch hen I have just hatched out the father daughter, mother son, I hope to get two lines going so I don't have to bring anything else into my yard
    It's an experiment to see if I can do it, and if they'll be any good in the show,

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    Re: Breeding!?

    sir gb,

    any difference among the 4 remaining lines? ie phenotype, fighting style?

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    Senior Member Golden Buddha's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by john cross View Post
    sir gb,

    any difference among the 4 remaining lines? ie phenotype, fighting style?
    John, for the phenotypes, in Color/looks they appear uniform. The sizes are a bit different, the smalles broodstag is at1900-1950 grams and the biggest Broodstag at 2350 grams. Even full brothers comes in different sizes.
    Now going back to Harry Parr's book, this different in sizes should affect the fighting style. That's now the direction i want to pursue! If this lines have different weights and fighting style, that would dictate the cross that i will make, based on a speed-power or vise versa.
    In Antonio Hidalgo's book, it takes 4-6 generation and lines won't have a common ancestor. In US animal husbandry, 6 generations. So i am now at the midst of that period, so i may try breeding that "battlecross within this Strain" anytime soon!

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    Member Gallo88's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Buddha View Post
    John, for the phenotypes, in Color/looks they appear uniform. The sizes are a bit different, the smalles broodstag is at1900-1950 grams and the biggest Broodstag at 2350 grams. Even full brothers comes in different sizes.
    Now going back to Harry Parr's book, this different in sizes should affect the fighting style. That's now the direction i want to pursue! If this lines have different weights and fighting style, that would dictate the cross that i will make, based on a speed-power or vise versa.
    In Antonio Hidalgo's book, it takes 4-6 generation and lines won't have a common ancestor. In US animal husbandry, 6 generations. So i am now at the midst of that period, so i may try breeding that "battlecross within this Strain" anytime soon!
    Good info sir, please keep us posted on your end results.

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    Senior Member Perfect-Gull's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    It sounds like my breeding concept except I dont like to keep inbreeding like that after 4 years. I would buy another hen or cock of the bloodline that is heavier on to refreshed the blood up. If I had a kelso hen that I was breeding to the sons that were 1/2 hatch then 1/4 and then 1/8 and 1/16, after the 1/16 I would buy another pure kelso or hen to keep breeding those stags to or vise versa back to the mother! Good luck, If you have a method thats already working for you don't change it just because you heard it was wrong! I just advise not to breed 5 or 6 different bloods into a fowl because you will waste time and money!

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    Senior Member Golden Buddha's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo88 View Post
    Good info sir, please keep us posted on your end results.
    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect-Gull View Post
    It sounds like my breeding concept except I dont like to keep inbreeding like that after 4 years. I would buy another hen or cock of the bloodline that is heavier on to refreshed the blood up. If I had a kelso hen that I was breeding to the sons that were 1/2 hatch then 1/4 and then 1/8 and 1/16, after the 1/16 I would buy another pure kelso or hen to keep breeding those stags to or vise versa back to the mother! Good luck, If you have a method thats already working for you don't change it just because you heard it was wrong! I just advise not to breed 5 or 6 different bloods into a fowl because you will waste time and money!

    Gallo88 as ive said this is a work in progress, ill definitely post the results. What i really wanted from our brother in sports, is how do they make their OWN STRAIN?! THat kind of a check-points for me too, or i can learn from them as i'm not a know-it-all type of Guy!

    Perfect Gull, my main purpose of setting my "own Strain" is to breed my own broodstock so i wont be buying from someone else. First it is expensive and second, i am sure this broodfowl are not crosses.
    This 4 lines that i kept came from a pair of Brownred X Hatch. I B/S mate them and breed enough to form six pairs for the 6 lines. Recently i reduced them to 4 lines, this are all BRs X Hatch, set as STRAIN.

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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Buddha View Post
    Hey Bud, i'm fine, glad you'll still find this topic worthwhile. Me, i always believe in this sport, Success comes from the Broodyard, so i put emphasis on breeding.
    I used to maintain 6 lines. I cut it down to 4 lines, i felt they're quite stabilized by now at 5th gen. Also i have not encountered problem(degeneration) so far, so i reduced my lines, to give spaced for my Sweaters.
    I hatched a clutch for each line everytime i inbreed. They are hen-hatched, and then free them on the ranged. They are marked, toe and nose, so time for penning, i can identify them.
    I do selection when stags and pullets are 10 months old. At least a pair for each line, if i cant find a good specimen on a line, i will hatched another clutched on that line. I keep extra pullets whenever i find good ones. This pullets are for crossing. So my target is at least 4 stags and 10pullets on my "Cassius Clays" as i fondly call them!
    As i mention earlier, i dont inbreed yearly, especially now that i am not showing a lot. I inbreed when my stocks are about 3 years old. I use them till about 4 years old, unless i find a BC or BH that are super producer, they will stay longer, and usually produce the number 1 line!
    At 5th Gen, i might try my goal of crossing lines to produce "a battlecross within this Strain", Wished me Luck Bud, if i'm successfull, i have the strain that are brood fowl and can be fought at the same time!!
    Thanks a lot Bud. Yes, I'm always curious on how strains of fowls are/were made. It's a very interesting phenomenon as far as I'm concern.
    Anyway, how many years did you breed your original pair of BR X Hatch to form your 6 lines that you reduced to 4 lines now? And as to blood relationship, the offsprings of your 4 line "Cassius Clays" should be First Cousins, right?
    And yes Bud, I'm wishing you the best in producing your strain of "C. Clays" that could rumble too also where it matters. That would be a very exciting accomplishment. I'll buy you the coolest SM Beer when you make that happen.

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    Senior Member Golden Buddha's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by FILAMEX View Post
    Thanks a lot Bud. Yes, I'm always curious on how strains of fowls are/were made. It's a very interesting phenomenon as far as I'm concern.
    Anyway, how many years did you breed your original pair of BR X Hatch to form your 6 lines that you reduced to 4 lines now? And as to blood relationship, the offsprings of your 4 line "Cassius Clays" should be First Cousins, right?
    And yes Bud, I'm wishing you the best in producing your strain of "C. Clays" that could rumble too also where it matters. That would be a very exciting accomplishment. I'll buy you the coolest SM Beer when you make that happen.
    That Ice cold SM Beer Should doused the Sin City Heat too its still Spring,but yesterday's 99 degree F showed what's coming. Give me a howl whenever you're here, chickentalk plus Cold Beer
    I actually have 2 surviving BR X Hatch winners that i mated to 2 sisters. One winner produced sickly, fragile chicks, i culled all chicks and discontinued that pair. It took me a year breeding the other pair during regular and off-season, to produce enough biddies.
    Yes You are RIGHT, if i cross the lines the "CROSS" are "COUSINS"! But at 4-6 generations, Antonio Hidalgo says this lines has no common ancestors! And if you remember it at B/S Mating Update, Mike Everett even posted that according to US Animal Husbandry, the lines have no more common ancestor. So are they still considered as "COUSINS"?!

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    Senior Member NESON's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by NESON View Post
    I believe it is the same but i think you can make more than two say you have a kelso cock hatch hen and grey hen you would breed the cock over both hens and breed stags back to mom creating two then you can take pullets from both matings and cross back to cock CREATING TWO MORE watering down the hen side putting more kelso so you end up with heavy kelso/ lite hatch blood heavy kelso/ lite grey blood from cock mating heavy hatch/ lite kelso blood heavy grey/ lite kelso blood on the hen side i like crosses it how i believe you make your own blood any way thats what im trying someone correct me if i am wrong
    so was i wrong? i read someone dosnt breed pass the first cross so i want to understand this pure trio so cock over a hen and cock over b hen off spring are crossed a hen side into the b hen side?

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    Member Gallo88's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by NESON View Post
    so was i wrong? i read someone dosnt breed pass the first cross so i want to understand this pure trio so cock over a hen and cock over b hen off spring are crossed a hen side into the b hen side?
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Buddha View Post
    Gallo88 as ive said this is a work in progress, ill definitely post the results. What i really wanted from our brother in sports, is how do they make their OWN STRAIN?! THat kind of a check-points for me too, or i can learn from them as i'm not a know-it-all type of Guy!

    Perfect Gull, my main purpose of setting my "own Strain" is to breed my own broodstock so i wont be buying from someone else. First it is expensive and second, i am sure this broodfowl are not crosses.
    This 4 lines that i kept came from a pair of Brownred X Hatch. I B/S mate them and breed enough to form six pairs for the 6 lines. Recently i reduced them to 4 lines, this are all BRs X Hatch, set as STRAIN.
    @ Golden Buddha: Yes this is much the same reason I started this thread, so we can all share our ideas. Because in my thought at some point where do we stop in this process? when is it that we can say "ok" this is an established line?

    @ Neson: How I understand it is, you get Cock breed it to Hen "A", after you raise, select best stag and pullet that show the qualities that you're looking for. You do a full sib breeding, the thought behind this is that you reinforce the traits that you chose them for. This is called your F1 breeding, you take the best stag and pullet again and breed the pullet to the original cock and breed stag to original hen. At this time you have created two separate lines of fowl. One line heavy on the cock side and one line heavy on the hen. After, the process continues.

    Now please do not quote me on this exactly as it is just how I understand it, I'm new to this as well, so take that for what it is. I'm sure someone with much more knowledge can chime in and clearly state if the above is correct or not.

  29. #29
    Senior Member NESON's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    ok i understand you but now will you ever cross the A and B offspring if so is this line breeding or creating a strain? forgive my lack of knowledge lol

  30. #30
    Member Gallo88's Avatar
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    Re: Breeding!?

    Quote Originally Posted by NESON View Post
    ok i understand you but now will you ever cross the A and B offspring if so is this line breeding or creating a strain? forgive my lack of knowledge lol
    In short I believe it's both sir, and if you use Hen "B" you can essentially create another two separate lines that are similar, and yes I believe you can at some point infuse the offspring from both Hen "A" and "B" to add fresh blood into the mix, this, how I understand it is how you keep from adding outside blood (none related to your fowl) to your line of birds. Now the question that is on my mind is when at what point is it established as a new line?

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