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Thread: Genetics 101

  
  1. #31
    Senior Member Reaper's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    Reaper, sure miss that old avatar. lol
    Lol... I miss him too.... Just thought i'd put my own fowl up....

  2. #32
    Member GoldenSpangle's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by DPotter View Post
    Reaper,

    Did you use one of the Dominant White alleles? I don't think the Andalusian Blue color that the calculator has exist in American Gamefowl. The "Dominant White" seems to be the one that causes Blues, Pyles and the like in our gamefowl. Again, this the one I know very little about. Maybe somebody else can jump in here and help us out on the Dominant White alleles. How about it Mike Everett, Jim Clem, Slipspur ? ? ? ? ? ?

    V/r,
    Don Potter Jr.

    Most "blues" in American gamefowl are not true Andalusian blue(pure for coloration)......but they do need to have some % of Andalusian blue in them to be able to get any amount of blue tint.... White is what allows the blue coloration to enter the feathers.......Dominate white by itself is only white......... , this is just the basic, it get more complex

  3. #33
    Senior Member DPotter's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenSpangle View Post
    Most "blues" in American gamefowl are not true Andalusian blue(pure for coloration)......but they do need to have some % of Andalusian blue in them to be able to get any amount of blue tint.... White is what allows the blue coloration to enter the feathers.......Dominate white by itself is only white......... , this is just the basic, it get more complex


    GoldenSpangle,

    I'll have to disagree with you on this one. You don't need Andalusia Blue to get Blue coloration and the different alleles of "dominant white" produce different results, not just solid white as you stated. One of the dominant white alleles received from one parent turns the black zoned areas blue (an example of incomplete dominance/a term I stayed away from initially) and if received from both parents turns the black areas white which results in a Pyle. Again, this one is not my strong suit but "dominant white" is probably the trait with the most options (alleles) and it is what produces the various colors which we with gamefowl call Blue.

    V/r,
    Don Potter Jr.

  4. #34
    Senior Member DPotter's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Remember in simple Mendelian Inheritance (excluding incomplete dominance and traits controlled by multiple genes) it's either dominant or recessive. There is no percentages.

    An example would be (using comb types for instance). Breeding 2 peacombed offspring together that each had a straight comb parent will result in 1 "PP" (pure for peacomb/homozygous), 2 "Pp" (peacomb but not pure for peacomb/heterozygous) and 1 "pp" (straight comb which has to be homozygous since that trait is a recessive trait and can only be displayed if inherited from both parent). Bottom line is they either have the allele or they don't.

    Peacomb X straight comb and you get all peacomb / the peacomb parent was pure/homozygous (PP)

    Peacomb X straight comb and you get peacomb and straight comb / the peacomb was not pure/heterozygous (Pp)

    Straight comb X straight comb and you get any peacombs / you didn't allow time for your hen to be clean before you placed her with that rooster or you mismarked your egg (staight comb X staight comb always gets you straight comb/it's a recessive trait)

    Again, minus incomplete dominance or traits controlled by multiple genes you either have the allele or not.

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  6. #35
    Member GoldenSpangle's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    I didnt say sold white, just white in general....... white is very important to achieve different coloration in fowl. But you cant get blue without some % of Andalusian blue, this gene is what makes the blue possible. Just look at that color calculator you played ., its all there in plain black and white for you read....
    White and its alleles when paired with different coloration genes will produce different colors of course...in the case with the "blues" it has to be paired up with some % of Andalusian blue.

    Color genetics in gamefowl is one of the most complex because gamefowl are bred for performance not for color.... With no importance in coloration bred into each other.....this is the reason many color family of gamefowl dont breed true to color, and why breeders have a hard time maintaining them....
    ...

    If you have a pure Andalusian pure family of blues you can see how simple it is to produce true blues.....its when you start adding other coloration that the coloration balance is thrown off balance therefor making them not breed true to coloration.

  7. #36
    Senior Member Golden Buddha's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Nice topic! Today's Breeders who would at least do researches on genetics and uses this in their breeding program would be better off! Wishing the best to all in their breeding endeavor....

  8. #37
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    Re: Genetics 101

    I have to agree 100% with you Buddha.

    I did find that I can raise better than I can buy.

    I see everything different when i know hype is just hype. Breeding is very fun. More difficult than fun. But it sure is alot better testing my fowl instead of buying someone else's untested fowl.

    I do feel breeding is more common sense than it is theory.

  9. #38
    Senior Member DPotter's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenSpangle View Post
    I didnt say sold white, just white in general....... white is very important to achieve different coloration in fowl. But you cant get blue without some % of Andalusian blue, this gene is what makes the blue possible. Just look at that color calculator you played ., its all there in plain black and white for you read....
    White and its alleles when paired with different coloration genes will produce different colors of course...in the case with the "blues" it has to be paired up with some % of Andalusian blue.

    Color genetics in gamefowl is one of the most complex because gamefowl are bred for performance not for color.... With no importance in coloration bred into each other.....this is the reason many color family of gamefowl dont breed true to color, and why breeders have a hard time maintaining them....
    ...

    If you have a pure Andalusian pure family of blues you can see how simple it is to produce true blues.....its when you start adding other coloration that the coloration balance is thrown off balance therefor making them not breed true to coloration.


    GoldenSpangle,

    If use use the "smokey" allele (looks like there are 2 separate choices that have this) under "Dominant White" you will get the blue color in the black colored zone that I mentioned earlier. It will not change the red colored zone however. Andalusia Blue is not required to produce a Blue. Maybe we are defining Blue differently is what I think here.

    Lastly, an allele for a trait is either present or not, there is no percentage of a allele (trait). My ealier Peacomb example should have illustrated this fact. The 2 peacomb parents produced a straight comb offspring and that offspring will never produce a peacomb offspring unless bred to a peacomb. This is because the straight comb offspring (of 2 peacomb parents) does not pocess the allele that causes the peacomb.

    V/r,
    Don Potter
    Last edited by DPotter; November 3rd, 2013 at 07:08 AM.

  10. #39
    Senior Member DPotter's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Additional information regarding one of the allelses of "Dominant White"


    Smoky IS

    The smoky gene is an allele belonging to the dominant white locus. Smoky is dominant to dominant white in both chick down and adult plumage in that extended black with I/IS (E/E I/IS)results in grey chick down and adult plumage. Research to date indicates that i+/IS heterozygotes express more the wild-type phenotype with respect to this gene indicating a recessive character with respect to the wild-type. Smoky is dominant on the chick down of IS/i+ heterozygotes in that down that should be black is grey. The melanosomes resulting from the expression of smoky resemble those resulting from Andalusian Blue. Smoky dilutes black much more than red/gold. An important difference between Smoky and Andalusian Blue is that Smoky in the homozygote state produces a grey/blue bird while Andalusian Blue homozygotes are splash. Therefore, Smoky fowl will breed true.

  11. #40
    Member GoldenSpangle's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Blue and smoke not the same...(lets not go off topic)...I do agree with you, you have the genes in you fowl to be able to produce a specific coloration......but I also have believe you could have a percentage of the gene present...( dominate/recessive ) because if you try to breed towards a specific color it wont happen over night in some colors it happens in progressions until the color has been bred out.

    genetics on coloration are more complex than a simple comb style.....some coloration take multipule alleles working together to create the coloration of some gamefowl.....

    Smokey IS and Andalusian blue and other colors are easy to to understand when they are in pure basic form.....but like I posted in my first post many of the" Blue " gamefowl are not true blue ( or smokey ) but a mixture of different colors and thats the reason they dont breed pure/true.
    Last edited by GoldenSpangle; November 3rd, 2013 at 09:01 AM.

  12. #41
    Senior Member DPotter's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenSpangle View Post
    Blue and smoke not the same...(lets not go off topic)...I do agree with you, you have the genes in you fowl to be able to produce a specific coloration......but I also have believe you could have a percentage of the gene present...( dominate/recessive ) because if you try to breed towards a specific color it wont happen over night in some colors it happens in progressions until the color has been bred out.

    genetics on coloration are more complex than a simple comb style.....some coloration take multipule alleles working together to create the coloration of some gamefowl.....

    Smokey IS and Andalusian blue and other colors are easy to to understand when they are in pure basic form.....but like I posted in my first post many of the" Blue " gamefowl are not true blue ( or smokey ) but a mixture of different colors and thats the reason they dont breed pure/true.

    A bird showing the results of what is called the smokey/dominant white allele would be called a "Blue" by anybody I know that has gamefowl, so I don't think I'm getting off topic here. I guess I'm curious now.......what would you call it?

    Also, what you're describing as breeding out a color (over time) is completed through line breeding or inbreeding and eliminating anything that shows the recessive trait/color you are trying to get rid of.

    I'm not trying to argue with you but if you can have a percentage of an allele then all the geneticist that have written all the books on the subject are wrong and I highly doubt that. Again, dominant is dominant and recessive is recessive (unless you're dealing with incomplete dominance or a trait that is controled by more than one allele).

  13. #42
    Member GoldenSpangle's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    " blue " families are known to produce splash therefore Andalusian blue.....

    What is writen about color genetics in fowl (poultry )is true, but you have to under stand they are studying pure/TRUE colorations. They have broken it down to the basic.

    % in coloration happens,, its why in full nest brothers in "blues" for instance some show more blue than others, if not they will all have the same amount of tint, color, but they dont some get more some get less....... no consistency
    Last edited by GoldenSpangle; November 3rd, 2013 at 11:51 AM.

  14. #43
    Senior Member DPotter's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenSpangle View Post
    " blue " families are known to produce splash therefore Andalusian blue.....

    What is writen about color genetics in fowl (poultry )is true, but you have to under stand they are studying pure/TRUE colorations. They have broken it down to the basic.

    % in coloration happens,, its why in full nest brothers in "blues" for instance some show more blue than others, if not they will all have the same amount of tint, color, but they dont some get more some get less....... no consistency
    GoldenSpangle,

    I'm not saying "some" Blue families don't contain Andalusia Blue, I'm just saying "most" don't and still produce Blue fowl. Just like some Spanish Gamefowl have a rose-combs but I know of "no" American Gamefowl that come with rose-combs. The different amounts of color/tints you are speaking of are caused by eumelanin enhancers, eumelanin restrictors, eumelanin diluters, pheomelanin intensifiers and pheomelanin diluters which are all inherited in true Mendalian fashion (as dominant and recessive alleles).

    I started this thread to compile multiple references for "one-stop shopping" for those that might be interested in learning more about the genetic aspect of our sport. What it has turned into is you and me disagreeing/arguing.

    I'm done arguing with you about there being "a % of color" and I will not respond anymore on/about that topic. So here's my recommendation for you. Why don't you write a scientific paper about the Blue coloration in American Gamefowl, submitted it to the scientific community for a peer review and if they think you are right/correct and Gregor Mendal is wrong/incorrect then your name will replace his in all the text books as the person that proved Mendalian inheritance a flawed concept and you will then become the father of the science of genetics and Gregor Mendal will just become a footnote at the bottom of the page in all the books about genetics.

    V/r,
    Donald F. Potter Jr.

  15. #44
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    Re: Genetics 101

    [QUOTE=DPotte

    ##### I'm not saying "some" Blue families don't contain Andalusia Blue, I'm just saying "most" don't and still produce Blue fowl.


    [B] if they dont have Andalusia blue they are not blue fowl[/B] ...your post above just explained why some blue families dont breed pure ......people breeding fowl that look like blues into their blue families and get the coloration mixed up and wonder why they cant beed true blue........most "blues" today ars heavily in grey and red.

    ####The different amounts of color/tints you are speaking of are caused by eumelanin enhancers, eumelanin restrictors, eumelanin diluters, pheomelanin intensifiers and pheomelanin diluters which are all inherited in true Mendalian fashion (as dominantk and recessive

    I Agree I know what causes it but why do some get diluted more than other, or some get more restricted, why some get more intensified, why some get more enhanced.....like the difference in two nest brothers same Father same mother?

    I have wrote somethig on genetic makeup titled : YELLOW BIRCHEN GAMEFOWL COLOR GENETICS. Im currently working with a family of birchen whitehackles that if my theory is correct they will be the only family breeding true birchen coloration, meaning that will produce bronze (gold ) on their body and most important in their TAIL consistently. (I practice what I preach)

    Birchen like blues are known for not breeding true

    Like your thread .... Nice to share notes
    Last edited by GoldenSpangle; November 3rd, 2013 at 11:18 PM.

  16. #45
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    The Blue gene is a recessive dominant. If a bird has one blue gene "any" black coloring is lightened to blue. If a bird has two blue genes any black coloring is lightened to white(Splash)....

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  18. #46
    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Everett is right! I have toyed with blues a lot. Still do. Dark blue to light blue, sky blue to white or splash, some een get kacky with dark blood.

  19. #47
    Senior Member Reaper's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Very interesting thread guys, please don't turn it into and argument Goldenspangle and DPotter. You guys are sharing/discussing opinions/knowledge on genetics we can all learn something from... Yall can agree to disagree...

    Mr.Mike Everett, can you explain more about the 1 and 2 blue genes?

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    Re: Genetics 101

    What about muff fowl breeding to a non muff ?

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    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper View Post
    Very interesting thread guys, please don't turn it into and argument Goldenspangle and DPotter. You guys are sharing/discussing opinions/knowledge on genetics we can all learn something from... Yall can agree to disagree...

    Mr.Mike Everett, can you explain more about the 1 and 2 blue genes?
    Blue can not be bred true...period. It is mutated gene that is an incomplete domiant, that means that it isn't complete dominant and not quite recessive it has both a dominant and recessive. Dominant = B Recessive = b, so the gene for blue is B/b. U breed a Blue(B/b) x Blue(B/b) u can get all the combination of the two....B/B, b/B,and B/b also b/b. The only true pure to me is the Splash(B/B) ..not blue in color but when bred to any fowl with black it will produce Blues. Splash to Splash = 100% Splash.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; November 5th, 2013 at 03:48 AM.

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  23. #50
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    I wanted to add that b/b would be pure, but it is the black side so it can not produce blues unless bred to a blue or splash....

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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    I wanted to add that b/b would be pure, but it is the black side so it can not produce blues unless bred to a blue or splash....
    I find that very interesting. I'm working on a blue family. They come blue-brown red-red. Not any other color.

  25. #52
    Senior Member springwater's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Guys let me ask you genetics guys this and maybe you can enlighten an old country boy. lol. My kelso will throw about 25% spangle when bred pure. Doesnt seem to affect the percentage if I breed red to red or spangle to spangle. I tried a few years ago to breed a line that would all come spangle. Went 5 generations all spangle to spangle. My percentage stayed the same although the ones that did come spangle seemed to show a little more white. When I cross them to a red family that does not throw any spangle, I will get almost all red. Maybe 1 or 2 out of a hundred will come spangle. If I breed 3/4 kelso, I will start getting spangles again. If I breed to another family that throws a few spangles also, I will get several spangles even at half and half. What would you call this family genetically and would there ever be a way to get a completely spangled line from them?

  26. #53
    Senior Member gaff's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Jay I don't know the answer but did you ever breed a spangle brother and sister?

  27. #54
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Lino Zuniga View Post
    I find that very interesting. I'm working on a blue family. They come blue-brown red-red. Not any other color.
    Forget the red parts...lol are ur Br. and Reds blackbreasted, black tails or at least part? That is the black in them, not pure blacks like the Andalusian Blues were made from. The genes dilutes the black not the red..U bred those reds they will produce reds...inbred the ones that come Blue and I bet u get some Splash.
    Last edited by Mike Everett; November 5th, 2013 at 05:26 AM.

  28. #55
    Senior Member Reaper's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    Blue can not be bred true...period. It is mutated gene that is an incomplete domiant, that means that it isn't complete dominant and not quite recessive it has both a dominant and recessive. Dominant = B Recessive = b, so the gene for blue is B/b. U breed a Blue(B/b) x Blue(B/b) u can get all the combination of the two....B/B, b/B,and B/b also b/b. The only true pure to me is the Splash(B/B) ..not blue in color but when bred to any fowl with black it will produce Blues. Splash to Splash = 100% Splash.
    Good info Mike... Im trying to breed a blue family which is why im asking..

    What if you throw some pyle in there, what will you get? How do you identify a splash?

  29. #56
    Senior Member Mike Everett's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper View Post
    Good info Mike... Im trying to breed a blue family which is why im asking..

    What if you throw some pyle in there, what will you get? How do you identify a splash?
    A pyle will change black feathering to white. A Splash will change black to blue.

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    Re: Genetics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Everett View Post
    Forget the red parts...lol are ur Br. and Reds blackbreasted, black tails or at least part? That is the black in them, not pure blacks like the Andalusian Blues were made from. The genes dilutes the black not the red..U bred those reds they will produce reds...inbred the ones that come Blue and I bet u get some Splash.
    Yes the reds are black breasted. The brown reds are almost all black.

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    Re: Genetics 101

    Doesn't any know if a muff fowl pure for the muff bred to a non muff type then would a3/4 show the moff or not.

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    Re: Genetics 101

    Man I'm glad Potter started this thread! I know there's another thread on genetics but I never really bothered reading it! With this one though, I find the explanations and examples given were a little easier to understand IMO! Thanks everyone for your input! I for one am starting to understand what genetics is all about and how it truly applies to our gamefowl! Now I'm really looking forward to applying what I learned here to my gamefowl this season!

  33. #60
    Member GoldenSpangle's Avatar
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    Re: Genetics 101

    .... When I said it wont breed true I was referring that they wont breed in the same manner as true Andalusian blue.....which is as follows

    Blue X blue = 50% blue, 25% black, 25% splash
    Blue X splash = 50% blue, 50% splash
    Splash X splash = 100% splash
    Splash X black= 100% blue
    Black x blck = 100% black

    I consider this breeding true to Andalusian blue coloration , just clarifying...

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