Melville Atkinson, Cabral boles blood and the old Mcoy from Charlie eidt have been good to us. I recently fell in love with Orville Morris asils aswell.
I had only a pair of pakistan reds years ago. I raised a few young, not many and did ok. I never crossed them. They were larger type and man so powerfull. They came from unknown, just not my liking in the way they wrestle and carry on. My morgans killed them. I remember back in the eighties meeting up with some smaller reds that impressed me with their speed and fought more like american games. I think they were atkinson.
Last edited by don128; September 1st, 2018 at 06:43 AM.
If they had been wearing steel it wouldn't have gotten to that wrestling point, you could see them reaching turning those legs, they would have been cutting deep.
My thinking is even if you graded to them (that exact type)they would still have that bad habit, it would be like breeding chickens that can't or won't cut a downed rooster.
Last edited by RedAngus; September 1st, 2018 at 07:42 AM.
Good observation Sir. Good orientals are sharp shooters and powerful, and they seldom missed the killing zones. Cross to a good solid Whitehackle and you'll have something to be happy about. I have had my Cobras for over 10 years and they cross well with my Brassback Albanies. The crosses to my YLMs are not bad either. We started experimenting with the Murphies and so far we like what we are seeing.
I may have to try some one day . I would mind starting a separate line with my Hatch fowl graded down to about 1/4 or 1/8 and see how they are.
My thinking is even if you graded to them (that exact type)they would still have that bad habit, it would be like breeding chickens that can't or won't cut a downed rooster.
Its a good possibility , something might some good on paper but not work in reality. You just never know which characteristics they are going to retain. All anyone could do is try it both hen side and cock side and breed them down and see what he had. Like you said you could end up with all the habits that you didn't want and none of the ones you did from either side.Thats the same with any fowl and all part of it I reckon.
Its a good possibility , something might some good on paper but not work in reality. You just never know which characteristics they are going to retain. All anyone could do is try it both hen side and cock side and breed them down and see what he had. Like you said you could end up with all the habits that you didn't want and none of the ones you did from either side.Thats the same with any fowl and all part of it I reckon.
That's why I said earlier I would go with a proven steel tested family. Those birds bred for tape would scare me in a drag
I may have to try some one day . I would mind starting a separate line with my Hatch fowl graded down to about 1/4 or 1/8 and see how they are.
If both families are good, you probably will not regret doing your Hatch/Asil grade. We've been doing this for over 8 years, and we still keep experimenting with different blends/percentages. We don't raise a lot though, just a few at a time, just to have a few to play with. Those grades are our Mexican and PI type fowls.
If both families are good, you probably will not regret doing your Hatch/Asil grade. We've been doing this for over 8 years, and we still keep experimenting with different blends/percentages. We don't raise a lot though, just a few at a time, just to have a few to play with. Those grades are our Mexican and PI type fowls.
Here's a few pictures:
1/4 Cobra stags from last year:
Some older pictures of grades:
As always my friend, those are some nice well cared for looking fowl , always slick shining feathers, You can tell they are well cared for! That 3rd bird is sharp looking. Is 1/4 as far down as you've took them and do they always retain the Oriental look . I know Roundheads were made with some Oriental blood but you really cant tell anymore. Im just curious to know if I ever di want to start my own line of Hatch with them about how far I would have to breed them down or how many years it might take to have them look like a pure strain of Hatch again. I know very very little about breeding and raising Orientals.
About 4 yrs. ago I gave my nephew a black breasted brown red stag that was 1/2 Buck Hawse BR, mother was 3/4 Asil, a Boles/Viet. blend, 3/16 Sammy Ramsey grey 1/16 Gilmore Hatch. One day he called his self going to see if his stags could take the steel. He didn't really know what he was doing. He started with the the little BR stag an another about his size an age and 2 3/4 inch gaffs. The little BR threaded the needle. One would think he would try 2 fresh ones next but no he left the BR heeled and dropped a freshly heeled stag. The little BR threaded the needle again. He said that stag killed 2 in less time than it took to heel them. Strangely, if you didn't know it, you couldn't tell he had any Asil in him. I'm not sure but I think he had around 3/8.
I’ve had Asils over 35 plus yrs and met the best California had and owned some very good ones myself.The majority of all of them were crossed on Black fowl. Ohoopee some of mine were crossed on Haws Brown Reds.I have had success with hatch but high performance hatch like Marion Rose McCleans not slow headed sluggers.I don’t have much use for grades below 1/2, I really think the best I ever owned we’re out of one Brown Red Hazard hen.
Just want to share a few pictures of Asil grade pullets I raise from this year's breeding (these are 1/2 Asil blood). These are the speed type Asils and are game. The plan is to breed one or two pullets and a maybe a stag to my Cobras to add more speed to my Orientals.
Just want to share a few pictures of Asil grade pullets I raise from this year's breeding (these are 1/2 Asil blood). These are the speed type Asils and are game. The plan is to breed one or two pullets and a maybe a stag to my Cobras to add more speed to my Orientals.
I breed the Boricuas excusiveley, They were gifts from my friend Cameron Vanbuskirk who imported them from PR they are fine Asils and some of the best I’ve had in my 35 years with Asils.
When it comes to orientals. I’ve had my heart broken too many times. Maybe one day I’ll find love.
Got a 1/2 Asil 3X that I’m trying as an experiment but I’m in 2 minds about looking for new ones.
A few on here have caught my eye but getting them is hardly possible.
I have access to Pakistanis but I’m not too sure if they are for me.
When it comes to orientals. I’ve had my heart broken too many times. Maybe one day I’ll find love.
Got a 1/2 Asil 3X that I’m trying as an experiment but I’m in 2 minds about looking for new ones.
A few on here have caught my eye but getting them is hardly possible.
I have access to Pakistanis but I’m not too sure if they are for me.
Time and again the best way to get a solid broodfowl is through friendship...hope you will find a solid Oriental blood that will serve you well.
Lol! Me too..........................
Remember Cnucum? He used to be a moderator on here.
I really liked his. He had the small black Asil and crossed them on JImClem Japs.
I would have liked to try those. They were for his personal use and he put effort into them.
Good Asils are the scarecest type of birds to get. There are some guys in Europe that have the real deal but to find them.
Theres none around here that are the quality I need.
Im a solid mug man. Got them through friendship. Let’s see how the 1/4s turn out.
Im not desperate yet.
Last edited by gaff; November 3rd, 2018 at 07:28 PM.
I remember reading a similar thread on orientals on here about 8 years ago. It seems orientals always make a come back every so often in popularity. We all love orientals ability for accuracy and timing BUT they also come with negatives.
One man on here said something to the effect; “ that’s why they made roundsheads”. It’s really a very accurate statement. It will save you a lot of time.
If you want to cross or breed Orientals into your lines, first figure out what attributes you think your fowl need, or how they would benefit from adding Oriental blood, and come up with a long-term goal.
Second, find someone who shows Oriental crosses in whatever heel you want to breed for or show in, and talk to them. Try to either watch them show or buy some crosses from them and see how you like them before spending money on brood fowl and spending a year or two raising fowl you may or may not like.
Asking a question like who has the best Orientals is too broad of a question. This is like asking who has the best Hatch, Kelso, Roundheads, Sweaters, etc... You will get 100 different opinions.
I'm not saying this to be a $mart@ss, I'm saying it because there is so much more that goes into breeding Orientals than most people realize. I have a pretty decent understanding of the intricacies but I still consider my knowledge to be very basic, and I would still call myself a novice.
The breeds and bloodlines of Orientals are just as numerous as American fowl.
There is a big difference between Asil and Jap. There is also a big difference between different Japs and Asils because they both come in different weight ranges. Most people are familiar with families that are in the 4 to 6 pound range, but there are some that are smaller and some that are much larger.
When you start getting into the Hybrid breeds or some of the exotic breeds used by the Hmong breeders, the difference is even greater than just Asil or Jap because some of these breeds have both.
Jawa Asil, Minwali Asil, Atkinson, Rampuri, Raja, Pakistan, Hyderabad, Hamlin, Sonatol, Ghan, Kulang, McCoy Reds, McCoy Greys, Gowdy, Boles, Tojo, Tuzo, O-Shamo, Chu Shamo, Yakido Shamo, Nankin Shamo, Thai, Pama (Burmese), Brazilian, Argentine, Mexican "Asil", "Rio Grande Valley" Asil, "White Dragons", and Ga Noi are just some of the examples of the what is out there.
Stand-up, super lock, under wing, under belly, bob & weave, top spin, leg assassin, back breaker, plucker, semi-pluck, fast beak, and head hunter are just a few of the terms that are used to describe the "style" and attributes that different lines have.
All that being said, lets use Brazilians as an example. You can have one breeder with Brazilians that fight top spin, another breeder with Brazilians that fight under wing, and another breeder that breeds Brazilian "Pluckers".
To go deeper into this lets say you find 4 breeders that raise top level Brazilians that fight under wing. When you start asking more questions, you will find out that each one has a different type of under wing fighter. One breeder might breed head hunters that will come out the back of the wing, grab their opponent's head and hit the head and neck. The second breeder may breed birds that will hide under wing and come out the back and attack the back and thighs. The third may breed birds that hide under wing and come out the front and hit the neck, shoulders, and chest. While the fourth breeder may breed birds that hide under wing and grab their opponent under the wing or on the chest and attack the legs.
Continuing with Brazilians as our example, there are some Brazilians that are very tall and lean and used for 1/4". These are can take tons of punishment to the head and neck, and are extremely accurate and deadly, but they can not take punishment to the body. There are other lines of Brazilian that can take tons of punishment to the body, but will sull if the lose an eye. Still others that are dead game.
There are Brazilians that look like very large Asils, and there are Brazilians that look more like Japs. Dr. Dave has Brazilians that are in the 3.0 range and some that are in the 6.0 range. There are some people with Brazilians that only raise birds 6 to 8 pounds, some want birds over 8 pounds.
Through the years I raised a lot of different bloodlines of Spanish and American fowl crossed on Asil and Jap. I personally wouldn't recommend buying birds from an Oriental breeder that only breeds Orientals unless you can find a few people who have been successful in crossing birds from them. I say this because there are traits that Tape fighters breed for, or overlook, that someone breeding American fowl would not want popping up in a fight.
I've written a lot on this subject on multiple threads, and so have many others. There is a lot of valuable information on this site already. Do some research, try to narrow down your search, then find multiple people that breed what you are looking for and talk to them.
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Originally Posted by RedAngus
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