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Thread: Cocking Secrets from the Masters

  
  1. #301
    rbsugbo
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    Kalotski,
    Egun could be the sigon or a variation of sigon.

    Maybe the original sigons or eguns came or were
    believed to have come from saigon.

    The sigons looks like asils but with bare neck and sometimes breast.

  2. #302
    Marabella
    Guest
    Kalotski,
    Is your egun a hennie? Or that's really the feathering of eguns?
    What are the fighting characteristics of eguns? Are they game in the knife?

  3. #303
    kalotski2002
    Guest
    sir juan, these are my uncle's breeds. i don't know the origin of egun. they could be the sigon or a variation, i don't know. but they do have hackle feathers similar to asils. they (the locals that fights them) just remove it purposely to avoid easy billhold of the opponent. they also believe it somewhat hardens the skin of the head. eguns are basically for naked fighting only. they are slow and but accurate headhunters. they usually billhold to deliver a fatal blow in the head of the opponent. but just like what sir glenn said, they dont start out fight with billholding. there are some (just like the one in the pic) who delivers quick punches without bilhold all throughout the fight. and they seem to select a weak point (usually the base of the neck) of the opponent and that's where they focus on delivering their blows. usually fights lasts for hours, sometimes til 5 pm, w/out quitting. steel gameness? we haven't tried them. i don't think they could be fought pure in the lk. they lack the speed...

  4. #304
    kalotski2002
    Guest
    the one in the pic is a hennie. they come in different colors just like the "texas". mostly off colors...

  5. #305
    Marabella
    Guest
    What's the best breeding method?
    I know this has been subject of several threads with rather inconclusive discussions. I hope some one here would gonna make a more definite stand. I wanna ask the masters if this is no secret of theirs.

  6. #306
    rbsugbo
    Guest
    Cross breeding, Inbreeding.
    2-way, 3-way or 4-way crosses.
    Rotation or criss-cross.
    Brother to sister, back to parent, uncle- niece.
    Actually all of them are just as good. It is just a matter
    of knowing which, when.

  7. #307
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Marabella, my thoughts on the Best method of breeding

    This is just my thoughts on this subject & you may not agree but here it is.

    First off, I think that it matters how much brood stock you have & how close they already are.

    As you all know I like to linebreed & this is why.

    When you linebreed, you are going back to a specific bird that stands out among the rest & the only way to hold on to his superior genetics & inhance them in his siblings is going back to him or her.

    Then, you can take his line of superior genetics & spread it around improving your flock as a whole.

    Linebreeding helps single out good traits as well as bad. & is a lot quicker.

    Say, you get a trio from Mr. Breeder that produces average to good birds. Chances are, most of the time, one of the three will have genes of a higher quality. By linebreeding you will be able to determin which one is the better bird. Then you can breed to him or her & produce better birds than you started with.

    You can also do away with the lesser bird. Linebreeding to the lesser bird will only weeken them. Also breeding brother/Sister at this point will not be good either because you have just committed 1/2 of the lesser birds genes in your family.

    You may even get Aces right out of the first breeding. I still like to know where the quality comes from. If you linebreed to each & your fowl improve in each line, then you might consider the brother/sister mating & locking the genes. But, ONLY if you get superior genes from both parents. If one parent has a little flaw, you just added it to your whole family.

    Also you can take lines & breed them apart. That way when you get them bred to tight, you can breed two superior lines together to get the hybrid vigor back & then start all over.

    Most of the time I don't go past 31/32. Sometimes I will stop at 15/16.

    Each time you linebreed back to a producing cock, you are cutting the hens side genes in half & adding more of the cock.

    So in the first breeding back to a daughter or son, you just knocked off 25% of the undesirable genes, making a 3/4, 1/4.

    The second breeding to you will take off 12.5%, making them 7/8s.

    the third, you will be taking off 6.25%, making them 15/16.

    The fourth, you will be taking off 3.125%, making them 31/32.

    Now to me it does not make much scence to keep going to take an even smaller % away & take the chance of them getting to tight & depression showing up. Each time you go back they get tighter & tighter while the % you are getting rid of gets smaller & smaller.

    This is how I maintain a family of fowl. By doing it this way, you can keep a family your whole life, with out adding new blood. Keep 5 or 6 lines that are bred apart & when you hit the end & they are getting too tight, you have plenty of other lines to breed to.

    Then you can take two different familys that have been properly selected over the years & cross them together, with a high probably that you will produce quality battle cocks.

  8. #308
    rbsugbo
    Guest
    Colt,

    Very systematic.

    There it goes folk, a gem of a post from Jim.

    And that's for free. Thanks to Jim. Thanks to sabong.net.

  9. #309
    Senior Member elson55's Avatar
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    Yep, it's beyond words of appreciation of Jim's continued and unselfish sharing of his knowledge and experience on breeding.

  10. #310
    Marabella
    Guest
    Colt,
    Thanks for the very educating post. Here's also a nice exchange between you, rbsugbo and ellis I picked up from another thread. Thanks for this too.



    ellisgamefowl
    Member
    posted 06-15-2005 07:57 AM

    Thanks for your thoughts rbsugbo

    Could you tell me why you prefer to breed an inbred cock over a two way crossed hen ......is it because of the hybred vigor that the hen has from being crossed ? Do you believe that a hybred hen will produce a healthier chick ?

    What about a two way cross , where you breed inbred fowl on both sides.......do you think there might be more probability for the inbred hen to pass on her bad traits that might pop up from being inbred......even though your crossing her with a different bloodline ?

    The reason I'm asking is because I normally breed a crossed multiple winning cock over a pure line bred hen .




    rbsugbo
    Member
    posted 06-15-2005 10:04 AM

    Ellis,

    Yes, hybrid vigor is one of the reasons. Crossed hens, at least produce more eggs than inbreds, if not necessarily healthier chicks.
    But the main reason is that I am a believer and an advocate of the theory that fighting style is a sex-linked character.
    In Pit Games No.2 I wrote:

    " It may not be conclusive yet, but the prevalent impression when it comes to fighting style is that pullets take after the father and the stags after the mother, meaning the genes are passed on to the opposite sex of the succeeding generation. according to experts this accounts for the so-called generation skip and the saying mana sa lolo.(Like the grandpa)"

    In that article I cited a breeding record of one Filipino breeder that supported the theory.

    In Pit Games No. 4 Dr. Andrew Bunan, one of the leading Filipino experts on gamefowl breeding and genetics wrote:

    " Complicated isn't it? But it seems that fighting style is indeed a sex-linked character meaning the hen passes hers only to her sons, while the rooster passes his only to his daughters. However, there are conditions. This means that not all fighting styles are sex-linked and that there are recessive fighting styles."

    I believe in this theory, hence, I prefer to use crossed hens in breeding my battlecrosses because in general our two way crosses are better fighters than our pures. Whereas our pures are bred for certain traits like pure power, pure flyer or pure grounder, our crosses are bred with a mixture of these traits to produce a more or less all around fighters.
    Therefore, following the hen factor theory, by this method we could produce all around fighters for our battle crosses.
    Another reason is that we could hardly see the fighting style of the hens. So to be safe we just go with the assumption that our crosses are better fighters than our pures.But in the case of the broodcocks we could select from among the pures which are the best by sparring and pit testing them.

    --------------------
    Rey Bajenting
    RB Sugbo Gamefowl Technology
    Pit Games Magazine
    Bulangero Worldwide
    Mobile fon: 0917-967-7353

    "GOOD BREEDING MAKES GOOD COCKS. GOOD KEEP KEEPS GOOD COCKS GOOD."


    colt39
    Member

    rbsugbo
    Your theory does sound good & I have bred that way.

    I also think that you will get your ACE Hybrid- Vigor pit fowl, just the same by breeding two tightly bred, pure parents, each of a different line that have been properly selected & compliment each other.

    With a properly maintained pure line of fowl you can pick birds that can preform well & win. Then you take them & cross to get the Hybrid-Vigor. I do not breed to many three way crosses because it seem to be to many genes floating around & you loose consistancy.

    Two way crosses that, like I say, if compliment each other, will throw ace cocks that will be more uniform in looks as well as preformance.

    The main thing I look at is what kind of hen I am breeding. In producing pit fowl. Your hen is the most important. Like you say, the stags take after the hen side.

    Now with that said, I do belive that they get their fighting style from the cock side as well. They take after their mom to an extent.

    My theory is that they take after their mom by 75% or so & the other 25% comes from their dad. If not you could just find a few good hens & just throw any old cock with them & produce quality pit fowl & make chicken noodle soup out of the pullets.

    This is why all the old timers that wanted to ad power to a good speed, cutting type of bird always put the power in on the cock side. The stags will still keep their speed & cut from their mom but aquire some power from their dad.

    This is the same with Asils. I like the cock side to be the Asil side. Even when I grade them to 1/4 I like the 1/2 & 1/2 cross to be the cock side.

    --------------------
    JIM CLEM JR/COLT SECURITY GAME FARM

    jimclemjr@yahoo.com

    www.geocities.com/coltsgamefarm


    rbsugbo
    Member
    posted 06-16-2005 07:50 AM

    Colt,
    Beautiful bird again. I also find your black jap in the picture nice. Very nice for an oriental. I don't like orientals but I find your jap beautiful.
    Thanks for your tips and additional info.
    Yes we can get aces too by mating pures. Only there are times that we have to put a certain trait or a certain bloodline twice over to get what we look for in a battlecross.
    Actually I share your concern about too much genes floating around on a three-way cross or more. That is why my three-way crosses are not really three-way, strictly speaking.
    Most of the time they are only two bloodlines with one of the bloodlines twice over the other.
    My favorite is the lemon x sweater and then I put another lemon cock over the offspring. Avoiding inbreeding of course. So based on your 75-25 influence ratio between hen and cock, then my battlecrosses will get more from the lemon side when it comes to fighting style.
    It really feels good to be sharing notes with gentlemen breeders like you and Ellis.
    Thank you guys. very much.


    --------------------
    Rey Bajenting
    RB Sugbo Gamefowl Technology
    Pit Games Magazine
    Bulangero Worldwide
    Mobile fon: 0917-967-7353

    "GOOD BREEDING MAKES GOOD COCKS. GOOD KEEP KEEPS GOOD COCKS GOOD."


    THANK YOU GENTLEMEN.

    ---Steve

  11. #311
    Senior Member juan sabungero's Avatar
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    kalotski2002

    thanks for the info

  12. #312
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Thank you guys as well & thanks to this Awesome site.

  13. #313
    Marabella
    Guest
    Colt,
    In your jap x brownred cross what's the cock and what's the hen side? And would yah mind telling us why?

  14. #314
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Marabella

    As a rule, you , most of the time want the Oriental on the cock side.

    Stags take more after the hen side & pullets take more after the cocks side. So, if you take Asil blood that is slow but smart & deadly cutting, & start out with it on the hen side, most likely you are going to have a very slow, smart deadly cutter that has speeded up just a bit.

    It will take a lot longer to breed it down to where your stags can compete.

    My Japs can be bred both ways because they are fast. They also have a different kind of smarts that helps keep them out of the line of fire & then get back in to fire them selves. They also cut deep to the body.

    My favorite is the Jap cock over the Brownred hens. The Japs are as fast as most fowl but, still don't match the speed of my Brownreds.

  15. #315
    rbsugbo
    Guest
    Colt,
    I would imagine that cross of yours is really great.

    Actually I am developing my own black line. The blackliz.
    This is the only line that I am not selling.

    This started as a brownred hatch cross. They were
    a little bit careless. Of the 7 brothers I fought, 5 won,
    But of the 5 that won only one cameback from
    the fight alive. They could hit but they got hit too.
    Also they lacked the one punch knockout ability.

    So in an attempt to put in some accuracy
    I bred ponkan (the original sweater broodcock from which
    my ponkan bloodline originated) over them. Then
    I backcrossed to ponkan two more times. I fought
    a few in every generation. They had their share
    of wins too. But everytime they got slower and slower,
    although more deliberate. So I put in the bonanza blood,
    to add back more speed onto them.

    My question here JIm, is whether you have experienced
    this kind of delicate balancing act in breeding your blacks?

    Because my other lines would stabilize in
    a few generations but not my blacks.

    Are blacks in general that unstable? Or my case
    is not necessarily the rule?

    Any advice? I love blacks. I want to develop a line
    that I will fight exclusively so I will not compete
    with my customers over the aces of my other lines.
    Anyway Filipino buyers seldom go for blacks.

    Thanks in advance Jim.

  16. #316
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Rey

    I have seen it as well. This is why I stayed with my Brownreds for the last 25 or so years, always showing them pure, or crossed with the Japs.

    I have crossed them with a lot of different birds & it is very hard to get the right cross.

    In my opinion, if you take speed away from them & put them even with the rest, you just lost the edge because that is all they have.

    Just for an example, I started breeding Asils from Les Melvill.

    The Brownred Japs are awesome so the Asil over them should be awesome also.

    The first Brownred/Asils, at 1/2 & 1/2 won their very first show, solo.

    Not real impressive but got the job done. I was not real happy with them so I took the same Asil cock & put him over some Roundhead hens.

    Those guys at 15 months old won a show solo as well but were very impressive and twice as fast as the 1/2 brownred ones were.

    So as a rule, I just cross the Brownreds with the Japs because they keep their speed & just aquire the smarts.

    In my opinion, speed is just as much mental as it is physical. If you tame the aggression, you slow them down.

    You just have to find the right cross with the want to, & it should make a good cross.

    This goes back to the power over speed can produce so so fowl.

    I think this is where you want the speed traits on both sides of the cross.

    Some times it is hard to find the right nick, no matter how good they are.

  17. #317
    rbsugbo
    Guest
    Thanks Jim.

  18. #318
    rbsugbo
    Guest
    I will follow Marabella's example of posting some
    of the better views from other threads.

    The exchange below clearly reflects my objection to tendency
    of others to equate gamefowl breeding to breeding
    of plants and other animals for show or for the table.

    I post it here for the benbefit of followers
    of this thread. Also I would very much welcome comments,
    adverse or otherwise, to enlighten me on this matter.



    Ray Boles
    Junior Member
    posted 08-04-2005 10:39 PM

    Correct, just got tired of the same old bull. Find out how all the pure species of dogs , cats , cows, etc. etc. were created and maintained and you will be on the right path.






    rbsugbo
    Member
    posted 08-05-2005 08:28 AM
    Quote: "Find out how all the pure species of dogs , cats ,
    cows, etc. etc. were created and maintained and you
    will be on the right path." Unquote.

    Really?
    But these species are for showing or for eating, not for fighting.

    Yes, I believe I know the importance of inbreeding. However,
    I also believe it is not the only thing in gamefowl breeding.

    But thanks for posts that constantly remind us of
    its importance.


    --------------------
    Rey Bajenting
    RB Sugbo Gamefowl Technology
    Pit Games Magazine
    Bulangero Worldwide
    Mobile fon: 0917-967-7353

    "GOOD BREEDING MAKES GOOD COCKS. GOOD KEEP KEEPS GOOD COCKS GOOD."


    Ray Boles
    Junior Member
    posted 08-05-2005 09:37 PM
    I think you will find it takes just as much work and skill to produce a show, working, sporting or competitive animal or bird as it does to produce a fighting cock. All the breeding methods we use were created by these people and lets not forget all the medications, feed, etc. etc. that we use. As for my self I would like to thank all these people for the knowledge they have passed on which I have incorporated into my sport.


    rbsugbo
    Member
    posted 08-06-2005 09:26 AM

    Yes Ray, we also owe something to them.

    What I meant was there are factors that they don't have
    to be concerned with in going about their breeding program.

    Among this is fighting ability. Fighting ability
    is very complex as this is dictated by several pairs
    of genes in so many locations.

    My point here is that too much inbreeding may not be
    as harmful in table chickens or show dogs as it is
    in fighting cocks.


    --------------------
    Rey Bajenting
    RB Sugbo Gamefowl Technology
    Pit Games Magazine
    Bulangero Worldwide
    Mobile fon: 0917-967-7353

  19. #319
    Marabella
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    ellisgamefowl
    Member
    posted 07-25-2005 07:50 AM

    Good question rhodblack . One that I don't have a definate answer to .

    Inbred & crossbred cocks both can produce outstanding offsprings .

    Instead of worrying about a uniform flock , or a flock that is inbred to the point where you can call it pure this or that........I think a breeder should be more concerned with their fowl's ability , body structure , mental attitude.......these physical attributes mean more to me than a bloodlines name and popularity .

    To be a complete breeder you shouldn't limit yourself to one certain method . When you bind your flock all in one direction you're limiting their abilities . We all know that inbreeding eventually will cause depression . And constant crossbreeding .....in time.....will make your flock so diverse you wont know which way to go with them .

    Also , the most overlooked part of breeding gamefowl......IMO , the most important.......is the raising they get for the first year . People with limited space and money are at a huge disadvantage in our sport . A free ranged stag will whip a pen raised stag 9 out of 10 times .

    Health is more important than bloodlines . Ability is more important than bloodlines . No one can sit here and tell you how to produce a line that constantly wins 90% of their fights . The reality is........there are many ways to produce good fowl .

    Select your broodfowl on an individual basis . Forget the name and popularity of the bloodline and select outstanding individuals on both sides . Regardless of how big or small the gene pool is ........a good producer is a good producer .

  20. #320
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    ability wins fights

    heres a couple of pictures i promised.

    this one is of the Seraway
    Attached Images Attached Images

  21. #321
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    heres the pullet going after another pullet in my handlers hand.
    The pullet cannot be kept in an enclosed stall or flypen with another pullet or hen...or she will kill it...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  22. #322
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    heres a Brazilian cock....third generation...original cock was bought for 1000 dollars by my partner..

    They are not as athletic as the seraway but they get stronger as the fight progresses...they can hit harder at the hour mark than when they first hit their first buckle...

    unlike the seraway...they are slow starters...and are best at 1/8 blood...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  23. #323
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    heres the brazilian and the seraway going at it.

    this fight went on for an hour ..we left them in the sparring pit and had lunch at my rest house...when we got back...both of them were still on their feet and exchanging blows...of course the brazilian had stronger blows by this time....but the seraway had more points...we watched them for 10 more minutes and had to take them apart....we got bored...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  24. #324
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    picture of one-half butcher one-fourth brazilian one-fourth rampuri...killed his first opponent in one buckle...his second opponent in the third buckle....he was always at the bottom...but he managed to sneak one deadly one on the third and last buckle...he never showed any limping until we put him back in his stall..

    this cock has won twice..in derbies...now he is disabled... limping but he might still be able to breed...
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  25. #325
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    im sorry for posting so many pictures...but i got a little excited with my new camera...had a difficult time trying to re-size all these pictures..

    this one is one-half yellow leg hatch one-fourth sweater one-eighth brazilian one-eighth rampuri...

    he can outfight his father..the yellow leg hatch...in fact...he can beat the crap out of any pure american fowl in my farm...and he is only 11 months old.

    he has 10 brothers...they all look and fight the same way...saving them for the big fights
    Attached Images Attached Images

  26. #326
    Senior Member glenn's Avatar
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    i have more pictures but don't want to clog this thread

    just let me know if you want to see comparison of seraway and brazilian (heads, back, scales, etc...)


    heres a picture of the brazilians leg scales
    Attached Images Attached Images

  27. #327
    CyberFriends gamecock96's Avatar
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    Glen

    Does the seraway have shorter bodies than the brazilians? Looks like it in the pics


    Al

  28. #328
    Marabella
    Guest
    Glenn,
    They are precious looking fowl.

  29. #329
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Glenn

    Nice pics.

    Glad to see people like you that appreciate a good Oriental & what they can do when crossed.

  30. #330
    rbsugbo
    Guest
    Glenn,

    More pics. This time of your oriental/german
    and oriental/british lines.

    Seraway is an island off Basilan. Near the island of Jolo.
    Could it be that the seraways are related to, or actually,
    the jolos?

    The looks and fighting styles are similar. When
    I saw that great seraway stag of yours I thought it was a jolo.

    If you can see my jolo grades, they are brownreds
    with lemon hackles. Yellow leggeds, pea combs,
    and they fight much like your seraway-- the great wall of china.

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