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  1. #1
    danding09
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    Brother-sister Mating

    hello pipol,

    i just want to know if this kind of inbreeding is ok because i'm still confused about homozygosity.

    i also wanted to experiment but is it ok???

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  3. #2
    Senior Member serge's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    I'm on experimenting process right now with my HATCH-LEMON CROSS and he is also
    a manfighter and next month he will be in 2-cock derby just to find out his fighting
    ability!!!

  4. #3
    Senior Member serge's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by serge
    I'm on experimenting process right now with my HATCH-LEMON CROSS and he is also
    a manfighter and next month he will be in 2-cock derby just to find out his fighting
    ability!!!


    This is the cock HATCH/LEMON CROSS result of BROTHER/SISTER MATING now a 3x
    winner in FASTEST WIN ULUTAN - 2 years and 1 month old -
    8/23/07 - argem coliseum - 1.17 minutes
    12/22/07 -binan coliseum - 37 seconds
    2/13/08 - pasay cockpit - 27.88 seconds
    and now I'm going to cross/breed it with BLACK/HATCH/LEMON CROSSES PULLET AND
    we'll find out what the result will be !!!

  5. #4
    Senior Member cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Wow this has been long buried... Wonder what happen to the ones that tried bro-sis mating?

    Any update guys?

    Chris

  6. #5
    Senior Member berniev's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    The IDOL of this site (Galvin Pabon) is very deep into this method.

  7. #6
    Senior Member wrigleycanada's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by berniev
    The IDOL of this site (Galvin Pabon) is very deep into this method.
    And it really works. CF champion is the result!

  8. #7
    alabama white
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by berniev
    The IDOL of this site (Galvin Pabon) is very deep into this method.
    TO MAKE IT PERFECT YOU MUST HAVE...

    BROTHER 100% HEALTHY x SISTER 100% HEALTHY = EL_GUAPITO METHOD 100%

    HEALTHY and ZERO MORTALITY.

    http://elguapitogamefarm.com/

  9. #8
    Senior Member Noel838's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by cnucum
    Wow this has been long buried... Wonder what happen to the ones that tried bro-sis mating?

    Any update guys?

    Chris
    Thanks Boss Chris for digging this up, 25 pages of usefull information and i think more posts will be added from usual and new contributors.
    cheers

  10. #9
    Senior Member OREVON's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by cnucum
    Wow this has been long buried... Wonder what happen to the ones that tried bro-sis mating?

    Any update guys?

    Chris
    Of course there is bro Chris. I will do this ONLY and IF the cross "NICKed"......

    The produce of my Blackwater YLH broodcock with the BB sweater hen NICKed with all 6 male offsprings won with total standing record of 9 wins 1 draw. I select the best pair out of this mating and paired them for 1 mating. This February I have 11 chicks born out from this pairing.

    The same with my Blackwater YLH paired with Hoskins Grey (3 males with standing total record of 4 wins) - due to be hatched before the end of this month.

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  12. #10
    Senior Member cnucum's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by OREVON
    Of course there is bro Chris. I will do this ONLY and IF the cross "NICKed"......

    The produce of my Blackwater YLH broodcock with the BB sweater hen NICKed with all 6 male offsprings won with total standing record of 9 wins 1 draw. I select the best pair out of this mating and paired them for 1 mating. This February I have 11 chicks born out from this pairing.

    The same with my Blackwater YLH paired with Hoskins Grey (3 males with standing total record of 4 wins) - due to be hatched before the end of this month.
    That's a very good winning line pre... I hope you do well with those bro-sis mating result, keep us posted... your on the 2nd generation, so if those are still OK and winning, next step will be line breed towards to original bro-sis pair you selected as per Ray Boles method...

    I suggest you line breed towards your Blackwater YLH broodcock also... as per Jim Clem method...

    Good luck pre...

    Chris

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Let's keep it UUUUUPPPPPP!!! PLEASE!!! So novice breeders to be could learn something from your experiences!!!!!!


    S

  14. #12
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    One more time: Breed B to S of what ever you wish. If you like the offsprings, breed B to S for as many generations as it may take for them all to become the same, not in just appearance, but all traits. They could become uniform in 5 generations or mabey 10, what ever it takes. This year I am breeding one pen which will be the 20th generation. This will give them an inbreeding COE of about 98.7 to 99 percent. Do you have to go this far to have uniform fowl, NO. I am doing it for myself. It sure is nice to know what they will be, before they are hatched. My other pens ICOE range around 70 to 85 percent. If you have a Boxer dog and you breed it to another Boxer, that looks the same as yours, the offsprings may all look the same, but they will not have the same traits as your dog. Now if you had breed your Boxer to another Boxer , say his cousin, you will get more of his traits, their ICOE will be greater. What I am trying to get accross is, just because the family you have look alike, doesn,t mean they will have the same traits or anykind of ICOE. The higher the ICOE, the more they will be alike.

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  16. #13
    Senior Member dantes_pick61's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    mr rayboles if breed a F1generation to F3 generations whats they could a 5/8---3/8 in what generation what you could this and this is also a brother sister mating. ...thanks for reply...

    QUOTE=RayBoles;3507308]One more time: Breed B to S of what ever you wish. If you like the offsprings, breed B to S for as many generations as it may take for them all to become the same, not in just appearance, but all traits. They could become uniform in 5 generations or mabey 10, what ever it takes. This year I am breeding one pen which will be the 20th generation. This will give them an inbreeding COE of about 98.7 to 99 percent. Do you have to go this far to have uniform fowl, NO. I am doing it for myself. It sure is nice to know what they will be, before they are hatched. My other pens ICOE range around 70 to 85 percent. If you have a Boxer dog and you breed it to another Boxer, that looks the same as yours, the offsprings may all look the same, but they will not have the same traits as your dog. Now if you had breed your Boxer to another Boxer , say his cousin, you will get more of his traits, their ICOE will be greater. What I am trying to get accross is, just because the family you have look alike, doesn,t mean they will have the same traits or anykind of ICOE. The higher the ICOE, the more they will be alike.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    nice info..keep it coming!!

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    You guys sure don,t make this easy. The more you breed B-S the higher the ICOE gets. After about 6 generations the ICOE would be around 60%. Meaning about 60% of the offsprings would be the same, now this is not an exact percentage , but is very close. The reason my fowl were uniform at the 5th generation is they were very closely inbreed before I started the procedure.. You have to make the discession when you think, they are all uniform. You can,t breed back until they are all uniform, becasue the ICOE will decrease. If I breed a pen with a 85% ICOE to a pen with a 65% ICOE, I will come up with about a 72% ICOE. This can get complicated, what you should set as you goal now, is first to breed B-S until they all become uniform. reli: thats correct, but your fowl may not all be uniform in the 4th generation. Orevon: always breed more than one brother to one sister, If I breed a stag to his sisters, I always have some of his brothers on hand. This is one of the most import reasons for haveing a pure family, you can never loose it , unless you loose all your fowl. Thats why all my fowl are basicaly the same, I can breed any cock to any hen and still have a high ICOE.

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  20. #16
    Senior Member jam671's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Just to understand what you stated, If i have a good high flying fowl, but not all of his brothers have this traits, by breeding this fowl to his sister and then select the offsprings with the same traits and breed the offsprings together, The results will be a line that have a higher % ICOE of high flying genes, so the more i do breed this method, all the offsprings will have this high flying gene?
    Last edited by jam671; February 18th, 2011 at 02:05 PM.

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Very interesting thread still have a few pages to finish it What is the purpose of inbreeding? What is the purpose of line breeding? What is the purpose of cross breeding?

    Inbreeding = Seed fowl
    Linebreeding = carriers the selection of seed fowl
    Cross breeding = Inbreed dominate trait(s) to be passed on to battle cross.

    From the win percentage of the stags and cock produced by the pullets of seed fowl in the linebreeding and cross breeding offspring you are able to replace the seed fowl. The seed fowl will be very tight but your replentishment will keep its self fresh and vibrant from this selection to go on for many years. It can also lead to color changes but the trait of style will be the same.

    Brother sister matings are required to start your seed fowl if they are not established. I like Rays rule but have also heard 4 th generation to lock and they breed back. Now I have never started my own seed stock as that is what I request. Most generally if you acquire fowl from inbreeder they will know you understand what the purpose is for. Seed stock is not or usually quality battle cocks breed pure.

    Many families you will hear they are great fowl but you have to cross them to make good battle cocks. Or they dont fight well pure... Well that is because the original breeder was targeting a certian trait. Those that do are usually linebreed fowl that has just enough variation from the family lines to produce the vigor required to make battle stock. 1 out 50 to produce a seed stock cock might be more true to than you would imagine. They have to win and produce and be absolute the best of the best.

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  23. #18
    Senior Member OREVON's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    this what i understand......

    brother-sister mating or what we called sib-mating is the best way when you find that your crossed fowl (2 families) nicked. by mating bro-sis for at least 4 generations will create a NEW uniform strain. to be able not to have "inbreeding depression" you may create 2 or 3 sub-families under it starting on at least the 3rd generation.

    Ray i hope my understanding is correct

    now, i have question Ray......how about when you almost to start this way then one of the pair died (ex. the last male of the siblings died and what left is a hen)? assuming that your original broodfowls (parents) are no longer around? what will you do?

    what i did, i hope it's alright, i mated the hen with a half-brother (with almost the same trait of them) and from their offsprings i will start the B-S mating again...........

    i really loved breeding. i try to study the trait of my fowls to have a complete trait i need for a fowl in the pit. like what i had.....

    my joe goode grey......for cutting
    my bw possum sweater......for style, power and agility
    my blueface.......for breaking and gameness
    my roundhead.....for station

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    Senior Member reli's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Ray I had some questions, I wish you don't mind to answer.
    The way I understand breeding Bro-Sis up to 4th generation is:
    1. The offspring of Sweater cock and Kelso hen (bro-sis 1/2-1/2) is simply called 1st gen. If bred together the product is:
    2. Second (2nd) gen (bro-sis 1/2 Sweater-1/2 Kelso). If you bred this offspring together the product is:
    3. Third (3) gen (bro-sis 1/2 Sweater-1/2 Kelso). If you bred this offspring together the product is:
    4. Fourth (4) gen (bro-sis 1/2 Sweater-1/2 Kelso). Mathematically, this product is called as the 4th gen., in which stage the breeding process stops.
    If I'm not mistaken, after selecting the best offspring out of the fourth (4th) gen, you could breed back the selected ones to the third (3) gen offspring. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    My question is: Assuming I breed back the second (2nd) gen to the first (1st) gen --just to cut short the process --would it give me uniform offspring? Your advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot, Gani Reli

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    To all the Gentlemen who contributed to this highly informative thread....Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and insights for educating us beginners and for the upliftment of the sport we enjoy the most.

    Especially to Mr. Ray Boles, Mr. Jim clem, Ace and all the rest...-thank you!!!!!


    S

  27. #21
    Cyberfriends BrianK's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    very interesting topic. keep it up guys.

  28. #22
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    I tried this method it works good for me this is how i made a line of dom

  29. #23
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Most bloodlines can't withstand inbreeding. Their undesirable traits will usually come out. If you can find one that can withstand it, hold on to it! That will be a gem!

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by oning_the_cat View Post
    I tried this method it works good for me this is how i made a line of dom
    Hi there Mr. oning,

    If I may ask, how many generations of Bro X Sis mating did you reach to make your Dom line? Thanks

    FILAMEX

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    Senior Member jam671's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    It might seem like breeding brother and sister will make a consistent line, but will it ever be pure? Meaning when bred, any off shoot breeds that comes from the line, would automatically mean, your line is not yet stable and pure because of the recessive pop outs. So one method of breeding is to breed for the recessive gene.

    From my own research, it would be best to breed according to recessive traits.
    Example would be a Dom X Red. If the offsprings throw out 90% Red and 10% Dom. Then that would mean the DOM genes are recessive to the RED. So when breeding brother and sister of this Mixed Family, The DOM recessive gene would make it easier to breed out true DOM by Breeding those 10% Pop Outs together to create a pure DOM line. Does this make Sense?

    This would mean it is best to test the breedings genes. Lets say I want to breed out a good line of Blacks. I would then test the genes with other lines. I would Cross the Black line to, Hatch, Kelso, Dom, Roundhead. And from these cross, I would then determine which genes are dominant to the Black. Then I would choose which Mix was the best and which mix Is Dominant to my Black Line. From this testing, I would then Choose which mix to make my line.
    Last edited by jam671; February 28th, 2011 at 12:04 PM.

  32. #26
    Senior Member jam671's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by jam671 View Post
    It might seem like breeding brother and sister will make a consistent line, but will it ever be pure? Meaning when bred, any off shoot breeds that comes from the line, would automatically mean, your line is not yet stable and pure because of the recessive pop outs. So one method of breeding is to breed for the recessive gene.

    From my own research, it would be best to breed according to recessive traits.
    Example would be a Dom X Red. If the offsprings throw out 90% Red and 10% Dom. Then that would mean the DOM genes are recessive to the RED. So when breeding brother and sister of this Mixed Family, The DOM recessive gene would make it easier to breed out true DOM by Breeding those 10% Pop Outs together to create a pure DOM line. Does this make Sense?

    This would mean it is best to test the breedings genes. Lets say I want to breed out a good line of Blacks. I would then test the genes with other lines. I would Cross the Black line to, Hatch, Kelso, Dom, Roundhead. And from these cross, I would then determine which genes are dominant to the Black. Then I would choose which Mix was the best and which mix Is Dominant to my Black Line. From this testing, I would then Choose which mix to make my line.
    The other thing to ponder about is, do we really need all the offsprings to breed true to color? Because breeding toward the dominant gene still can breed out good birds, but just the occasional pop outs is what makes the line seem like it is not pure. So another question is, is a highly inbred / linebred that still give pop outs considered as pure and are they still able to create hybrids with hybrid vigor? Or Is the recessive pure bred breed out good hybrids with good hybrid vigor?

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    Senior Member OREVON's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    dominant and recessive colors shows depending on the purity in color (i.e. a grey has no red blood ; red has no grey blood)

    grey is dominant than red specially when you use a grey broodcock

    a. grey bc over red bh = all offsprings are grey
    b. red bc over grey bh = sex-linkage (male will be grey; females will be red)

    this is the same with other colors like dom, black or white........

    now if for example you breed with both dominant colors, then they will be co-dominant that the colors of the offsprings will be divided

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  36. #28
    Senior Member reslingblade's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    keep it coming guys very impormative

  37. #29
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Filamex/i just try once but thier offspring hen /male produced a lot of wins to me

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by oning_the_cat View Post
    Filamex/i just try once but thier offspring hen /male produced a lot of wins to me
    Thanks Sir Oning. Sounds like they're gooood. Do you plan on going any further in breeding Bro X Sis for this bloodline of yours?

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