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Thread: Brother-sister Mating

  
  1. #901
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I've had my own hounds and chickens since I was 12 .. Stripped grass seed and caught grasshoppers at night to feed stags when there wasn't money for feed . Did both with no help and always trained my own hounds and roosters

    There are a lot of things you will see when you are on that end that you can articulate , explain or emote to others as you experienced it .

    Phenomenal brood fowl have came from cocks , hens , inbred , crossbreed, scatterbred , aces , duds .... Not a single person can explain why or how to repeat that .

    I could say .... mongoose , go mate up a pair of your choosing and send me a stag that is a phenomenal producer and will let me quit my job .. You can't do it . You still have a day job yourself .. So how you gonna say you know what's behind the magic of great fowl .. Because your keyboard sits still and lets you is why
    I think everyone else is thing its some kind of reversing process for an equilibrium but just thru breeding methods

  2. #902
    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    I have studied a little on the subject and a special note is a father/daughter has the same coi of a b/s mating. With that being said each breeding produces the same thing. The key is which way YOU want to go.

  3. #903
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Everyone of us has different farm location, some have very good soil and environment some average and some worst this one can affect the evolution of our chicken. Health,Size and feathers etc. It might affect the offspring of the inbreds with regards to health and size, mental state not included though. Bro-Sis might degrade the immune system so if you raise them in poor soil and climate its already a failure for the test. Breeding is not all base in bloodlines it also include the place where you breed them. Thats why there are still lots of Filipinos importing fowl from US to upgrade because of Health, Bone, Flesh and Feathers who raised and grow from US.. Just my point of view..am still learning...

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  5. #904
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by moseley View Post
    I have studied a little on the subject and a special note is a father/daughter has the same coi of a b/s mating. With that being said each breeding produces the same thing. The key is which way YOU want to go.
    Maybe, BUT...................... they never produce the "same thing"

    https://www.genetics.org/content/gen.../1/73.full.pdf

    This should take some study LOL>>>>>>>>
    Moseley, when you get through all that and get a very basic understanding, get back to me......
    Last edited by Crazy Eyes; October 25th, 2019 at 06:07 PM.

  6. #905
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Eyes View Post
    Maybe, BUT...................... they never produce the "same thing"

    https://www.genetics.org/content/gen.../1/73.full.pdf

    This should take some study LOL>>>>>>>>
    Moseley, when you get through all that and get a very basic understanding, get back to me......

    Nice read LOL. One thing I can guarantee you about breeding is:
    1+1 can equal 2 but I have found it can vary. U just cant quantify genetics into a dependable math equation.

    1+1= +6 or 1+1= -6 Sometimes it just equals 0.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; October 25th, 2019 at 06:41 PM.

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  8. #906
    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Wasn't very good in math. I do understand likes produce likes if the genes add up. Where most get into trouble is not having a guideline for their selection. Some select colors others performance and some both. If it's a dominant gene then it will show up in offspring. A recessive gene can only show if both parents have it. Understanding weather the gene you are looking for is one or the other is the whole question to breeding.

  9. #907
    Senior Member Pinolim's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Nice read LOL. One thing I can guarantee you about breeding is:
    1+1 can equal 2 but I have found it can vary. U just cant quantify genetics into a dependable math equation.

    1+1= +6 or 1+1= -6 Sometimes it just equals 0.
    Correct !!!!! That 's why I love to read or listen to somebody who tells me just to infuse Hatch to get power, or add Roundhead to give flight, as if breeding for expectations is just like making coffee with cream and sugar....

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  11. #908
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinolim View Post
    Correct !!!!! That 's why I love to read or listen to somebody who tells me just to infuse Hatch to get power, or add Roundhead to give flight, as if breeding for expectations is just like making coffee with cream and sugar....
    I wish it was that straight forward.

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  13. #909
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinolim View Post
    Correct !!!!! That 's why I love to read or listen to somebody who tells me just to infuse Hatch to get power, or add Roundhead to give flight, as if breeding for expectations is just like making coffee with cream and sugar....
    Dont know whats worse the people that tell people to do it or the ones who listen. Guess all should share a little of the blame . I do understand why people say stuff like that because in those cases those breeds might give you the best chance of producing what a person wants. A good chance is better than a bad one and certainly better than no chance at all. But when people breed fowl like engineers draw blueprints and expect reality to work like it does on paper theyre making a big mistake. Even the best educated guess backed up with sound planning , rules and regulations really don't work when youre dealing with blood bone and flesh .
    It sure would be nice if you could take a Hatch and breed to RH and get exactly the traits you wanted from each. Following a good plan , careful record keeping , hard culling and a keen eye helps a hell of a lot but its like you said NOT GUARANTEED . It sure beats having no plan though I guess. Ive often wondered if an every day gamefowl breeder had the technology and means to clone fowl if he could take his best bird and clone it and have the same quality Ace he cloned from. That technically what we as breeders are trying to do . The thing is , although the clones would be exactly like the original in makeup in flesh and bone . Would each one be just as special and capable in ability . Even though all the tools are exactly alike the individuality and experiences from the time that Ace cock was hatched wouldn't be the same. Would it make a difference? I wonder. Guess folks like me will never get the find out but its a hell of a thought.

  14. #910
    Senior Member newtogame2's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Skincarver View Post
    Dont know whats worse the people that tell people to do it or the ones who listen. Guess all should share a little of the blame . I do understand why people say stuff like that because in those cases those breeds might give you the best chance of producing what a person wants. A good chance is better than a bad one and certainly better than no chance at all. But when people breed fowl like engineers draw blueprints and expect reality to work like it does on paper theyre making a big mistake. Even the best educated guess backed up with sound planning , rules and regulations really don't work when youre dealing with blood bone and flesh .
    It sure would be nice if you could take a Hatch and breed to RH and get exactly the traits you wanted from each. Following a good plan , careful record keeping , hard culling and a keen eye helps a hell of a lot but its like you said NOT GUARANTEED . It sure beats having no plan though I guess. Ive often wondered if an every day gamefowl breeder had the technology and means to clone fowl if he could take his best bird and clone it and have the same quality Ace he cloned from. That technically what we as breeders are trying to do . The thing is , although the clones would be exactly like the original in makeup in flesh and bone . Would each one be just as special and capable in ability . Even though all the tools are exactly alike the individuality and experiences from the time that Ace cock was hatched wouldn't be the same. Would it make a difference? I wonder. Guess folks like me will never get the find out but its a hell of a thought.
    with all the knowledge being passed around out there, especially since the availability of the internet, a pair of keen eyes (and a little luck) are probably what separates professional breeders from the rest... some people may think they have keen eyes, but that's just their thinking.

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  16. #911
    Senior Member newtogame2's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    I'd be rich and famous if hind sight was 20/20. Most of us don't realize what we have until it's too late. When I had 5 inbred hatch. Oaks if I'd mass produced them over straight mug hens the color of fowl now would be half brown red or black red peacomb mugs.
    hind sight is 20/20... let me know if you need help with what you really meant to say...

  17. #912
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post

    Phenomenal brood fowl have came from cocks , hens , inbred , crossbreed, scatterbred , aces , duds .... Not a single person can explain why or how to repeat that .


    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    U just cant quantify genetics into a dependable math equation.

    1+1= +6 or 1+1= -6 Sometimes it just equals 0.

    aren't you two saying the same thing? just kiss and make up already...

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  19. #913
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by newtogame2 View Post

    aren't you two saying the same thing? just kiss and make up already...
    No, for one, i was responding to someone else and 2 QP is a constant crosser. He doesn't care to maintain NOR IMPROVE any bloodline. Oh, yes, he has pure bloodlines that are irrelevant NOW but keeping them and maintaining them is two different things.

  20. #914
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Most everyone is really on the same page , you don't hear near the fussing at the pits as on here .. Folks can relate better and don't get as silly .

    I don't keep or maintain nothing because I order a trio or whatever ... I try them , use them and learn them before breeding pure .. Takes a few years before you should ever try thinking you have the experience to help a breeder carry on . Mongoose wouldn't let a first year med student do his prostate exam , don't know why he's so obsessed with thinking I outta commit to breeding families others have done fine with wwithout me
    You essentially a “book guy” and an obsessive chronic chicken shopper. Theres a big difference between regurgitating what you've read and spending a decade with the same fowl and learning. Grass is always greener across the fence for you. You lack focus. Remind me of a 5 year old kid in a candy store with a hundred dollar bill. More dollars than SENCE.

  21. #915
    Senior Member newtogame2's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    No, for one, i was responding to someone else and 2 QP is a constant crosser. He doesn't care to maintain NOR IMPROVE any bloodline. Oh, yes, he has pure bloodlines that are irrelevant NOW but keeping them and maintaining them is two different things.
    I know you were talking to another person, but you are essentially saying what QK said: you can't predict breeding.

    I can talk to my neighbor about a dodge challenger being a cooler street car than a camaro (camaros kill challengers on the tracks or twisties though). Half way across the world in Japan, some American muscle car fan can say the same thing to his buddy... I was not talking to him, but it does not mean we are not saying the same thing.

  22. #916
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by newtogame2 View Post
    with all the knowledge being passed around out there, especially since the availability of the internet, a pair of keen eyes (and a little luck) are probably what separates professional breeders from the rest... some people may think they have keen eyes, but that's just their thinking.
    Exactly ! I like to think I have a good eye for fowl but my eyes have failed me more than once lol. Id be the first to admit that lol . If a man knows his mistakes and learns from it he will get better. But that's no guarantee . Some learn quick , some never learn, but just like you said a little luck never hurt a damn thing !!!!!!!!!!!! I honestly think some people are just that LUCKY . Some people seem born to win while other no matter what they do are born to lose .
    I will say though if you start with great fowl. Only breed Ace cocks and keep good records on all fowl especially what hens are throwing Aces better luck is bound to come your way. Almost guaranteed. May not be world beaters but good honest fowl most times.

  23. #917
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Most everyone is really on the same page , you don't hear near the fussing at the pits as on here .. Folks can relate better and don't get as silly .

    I don't keep or maintain nothing because I order a trio or whatever ... I try them , use them and learn them before breeding pure .. Takes a few years before you should ever try thinking you have the experience to help a breeder carry on . Mongoose wouldn't let a first year med student do his prostate exam , don't know why he's so obsessed with thinking I outta commit to breeding families others have done fine with wwithout me
    Quapaw you ever gonna give me one them damn Whitehackles or not LMAO. I see for the last year you been talking about Asil, Hatchs this and that. How come you don't have a whole field full of them Boselys. Were they/are they not good enough , don't suit you or what?

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  25. #918
    Senior Member newtogame2's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Most everyone is really on the same page , you don't hear near the fussing at the pits as on here .. Folks can relate better and don't get as silly .

    I don't keep or maintain nothing because I order a trio or whatever ... I try them , use them and learn them before breeding pure .. Takes a few years before you should ever try thinking you have the experience to help a breeder carry on . Mongoose wouldn't let a first year med student do his prostate exam , don't know why he's so obsessed with thinking I outta commit to breeding families others have done fine with wwithout me
    you sound a lot like crazy old Brownred Kelso (who also had a lot of good points)... he said unless you have the time and mean to breed, don't bother... buying 15 -20 roosters each season and learning the fighting side of it (conditioning, heeling, handling) is a lot more fun... often in the middle of the winter, or when it rains heavily in the spring, i'm tempted to do just that.

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  27. #919
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Out all the smart and crazy crap BRK posted that's one I would agree with. Its a hell of a lot more fun fooling with them when you want to than the days you feel bad and the weather is rough.

    On the flip side though a lot can be said about how a man feels when all that hard work pays off and he knows he bred those fowl up into what they are on that day. You really cant buy that.

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  29. #920
    Senior Member newtogame2's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Skincarver View Post
    Out all the smart and crazy crap BRK posted that's one I would agree with. Its a hell of a lot more fun fooling with them when you want to than the days you feel bad and the weather is rough.

    On the flip side though a lot can be said about how a man feels when all that hard work pays off and he knows he bred those fowl up into what they are on that day. You really cant buy that.
    i'll drink to that...……………..

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  31. #921
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    The grass is greener where you water it .... I have the same fowl , hounds , job and wife as did outta high school . But , you can't stop searching ...

    I use my Gramddads recipe for gravy , but still watch cooking shows am learn new stuff ... Takes both old and new to stay on top

    But , if it makes you feel better tells us about the roosters at you dads house you take pics of when you visit every few weeks ...
    LOL, you sound alot like that other idiot grey/dom who said the same thing. Turns out hes questionable about owning fowl. U really got me wondering if you have fowl since your so fixed on me not having them.
    I see no proof u own fowl either.

  32. #922
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    They didn't lay good and two pair of black snakes took a toll , but Pumpkins did good .. The Morgans are good and we won a helluva lot with em but they can't whip the ram in heels ...
    Well **** send them on before I die of old age, I wont show them against no Rampuris LMAO

  33. #923
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    You are right , I don't ... Not a feather , never even seen a gamecock or had one .. You win , it's over ...,move on .
    WOW, must be true. Never seen you short for words. All the birds are probably your grandfathers same as the dogs. Im even unsure u have a wife. Who’d VOLUNTEER live with YOU, LOL. She should be nominated for sainthood. LOL.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; October 26th, 2019 at 01:15 PM.

  34. #924
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Yup , the cover of Bloodlines mag wasnt me ... All them hounds in them books wasn't me .. No wife , kids , roosters . Nothing . I was kidding about ever owning a rampuri .. Just read it on the net ... You can now turn your attention to other things ...
    Never seen you shut up so easy. Must of said something that was the truth. Oh, by the way. I was on national TV once on a half hour show. Im a movie star too LOL.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; October 26th, 2019 at 01:49 PM.

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  36. #925
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I'm all ears tell me more ..
    You and grey/thong are easy to shut up just by insinuating the same crap that comes out of THEIR OWN MOUTHS on them.
    Once again, must be some truth too it for both to be SOOO quiet.

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