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Thread: Brother-sister Mating

  
  1. #841
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Lol, been there in those walls of academia but nothing teaches you more than actually doing it. If anyone has a child thats about to leave high school, Id say a trade school is better. Teachers never pushed trades but they make just as much and often more and can be their own boss alot easier as opposed to the long, drawn out and highly expensive university route. They're both good but univs take alot of money from parents and kids that end up dropping out after 1 year when they prob shld have gone the trade school route because theyre more of the hands on type respectively. Its hot here 10 months out of the year, A/C and Refrigeration companies make a killing for example, damn good thing to be in.
    Back to breeding, it is a phenomenon that will never be entirely figured out. That makes it an attractive one to me. Youre right, the investment you put in especially when applying intense inbreeding could go south anytime, you just dont know for sure.
    Best wishes Talbo
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; October 12th, 2019 at 07:07 AM.

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  3. #842
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Sometimes i get all confused on all these different ways to breed , bro-sis, locking in genes,ect. Ect. . I just wished old man mcrae ( mcrae black fame ) was still around , i think he could straighten us all out.

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    I'm Going to say if your gonna breed b&s don't wait until it's necessary. Do it on your terms and maybe do more than one. Years ago I had to do it out of necessity and I was lucky as it. Worked well for me. I only raised two pullets but they saved my mugs. Both made great brood hens and I bred their best stags back to them. And I've been good ever sinse. But I'd not recommend that route.

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  7. #844
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    This is a great thread. I always stayed away from BS matings but did have an unintentional clutch come off last year. All of the observables one can "see" : bone, station, feathers, action,etc. are great. The verdict is still out for the non observables.

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  9. #845
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogwaller View Post
    This is a great thread. I always stayed away from BS matings but did have an unintentional clutch come off last year. All of the observables one can "see" : bone, station, feathers, action,etc. are great. The verdict is still out for the non observables.
    To ease selection BS mating can be advantageous for beginners sometimes

  10. #846
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by antair View Post
    To ease selection BS mating can be advantageous for beginners sometimes
    I agree Antair, it could come in very useful if you know what to look for. If it doesn't work and you aren't doing it out of necessity like Del stated, then just stay with the line if its good and outcross if that's been working well. It can also help experienced breeders as well, some of the best birds that have won some pretty big ones in Oklahoma came out of brother and sister matings. Kicker on one that I know of was that the breed was a straight up half and half cross of BF and RH. From there bro and sis were bred.
    SF

  11. #847
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogwaller View Post
    This is a great thread. I always stayed away from BS matings but did have an unintentional clutch come off last year. All of the observables one can "see" : bone, station, feathers, action,etc. are great. The verdict is still out for the non observables.
    If I may ask, what kind of bloodline is that unintentional BS mating? Thanks

  12. #848
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by bootlegger View Post
    Sometimes i get all confused on all these different ways to breed , bro-sis, locking in genes,ect. Ect. . I just wished old man mcrae ( mcrae black fame ) was still around , i think he could straighten us all out.
    The only reason these techniques existed due too poor selections

  13. #849
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    It's possible that they did but poor selection as in running low on a family, not necessarily in choosing the wrong ones to breed. When one has 10 lines and is constantly bringing in new ones, there's alot to select from BUT all their crosses aren't hits. In fact, most are probably misses. So who is selecting poor and making no ground? To me it's that one, the one with many lines that is just crossing everything to see what they get. That's a narrow sighted vision, I myself have been there. When you find good bloods and you'd like to keep them, its time to start learning about inbreeding strategies and most importantly applying them. I think these techniques were made by those who didn't care to be bringing in new blood all the time. I am happy with what I have now (as many others are as well), they cross well together so Im gonna try to keep it that way by utilizing every breeding technique possible that works out for me so that I don't have to bring in those great unknowns. Inbreeding requires alot more thought and attention to detail than random cross breeding, it's night and day. It requires one to look into the future by way of preparing for it now so that you can get there along with alot of patience to see it through. I could very easily get my hands on other fowl that are considered to be damn good so that I don't have to inbreed so much but for what I say.... to start from ground zero again, I'd rather not.
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; October 15th, 2019 at 04:19 PM.

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  15. #850
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by antair View Post
    The only reason these techniques existed due too poor selections
    or poor brood fowl.......................or fowl too far gone
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; October 15th, 2019 at 09:47 PM.

  16. #851
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Revamping a family of fowl is hard to do cause we have NO idea how it was done. It took a mans life work to make them. How long should it take for you to fix them?
    They say “patience is a virtue” for a reason. Cause without it. You can never be a breeder. You have to LOVE the intricacies of breeding—- good & bad.

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  18. #852
    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Breeders seldom create the magic , they find it and experiment on how to keep it .... most every line of performance animal was founded on luck .

    The Blueface were a product of a half dozen of the countries greatest cockers with crazy resources and it was a random dummy bird running loose that finally got thrown a hen to breed .... The Claret story is the same , tons of culls and 3 farms finally hit paydirt after years of their purposeful breedings failed.

    Some random Asil cock comes to port and nobody claims him ... becomes the source of good Roundheads . You could go on and on proving what it takes to create something great doesn't jive with how our brains wanna breed stuff .... most great foundation blood in all animals comes from guys hammering at the sport and stacking up the deadpile to find something that doesn't come along often and they take it to the brood pen ......

    The amount of successful crosses each year that really nick and get a win streak is way low .... 5% would be kind . The % of that 5% is way low to be turned into a long term family ... the only common denominator is throw the pedigrees and breeding charts away and see how fast you can go through fowl to find the ones that will make you look smart ... the other way don't work ... it only works if you want to do it and then just say it works and hope nobody wants you to show them or nobody on sabong sees you show them .

  19. #853
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    After continuously mating a brother sister mating for a few years ,,,,,you can mate nephew to great aunt or even to aunt and you can show them,,,them will be strong

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  21. #854
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    A lot of tried and true methods, and theories.. but you have to try first to see for self..


    I would say most would like to choose to not inbreed..
    some simply can’t without losing important qualities in said line..

    I would much rather have many to choose from within a set family or (1/2-1/2, or even 3/4-1/4) but I don’t at moment..


    having to inbreed.. B/S, Father/Daughter, Mother/Son, Grandfather/Granddaughter, Grandmother/Grandson, Uncle/Niece,
    Aunt/Nephew..
    so on..

    it’s the Individuals, and how the bloodline can take such reduction/isolation of Genes.. jmo.. nothing more as I’m trying to learn adapt to new ideas and changes that arise setbacks, failures, tragedies occur..

    It has been stated as common knowledge..that when you realize somethings wrong it’s usually to late to save them or at very least through inbreeding, and so outside blood is needed and again certain individuals will be the progeny so selection is key.. but don’t pass things up.. sometimes the ones “You Think should carry on what you want carried” simply cannot or perhaps it was just the pairing of two individuals that could not re-create your envisioned outcome.

    way I’m seeing it for today.. and until next breeding season.. planning on 5 sisters back to their brother.. as I’m hoping for selection and test to see.. after that hopefully maintain them.. acquire another line for that kickarse sauce..

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  23. #855
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Breeders seldom create the magic , they find it and experiment on how to keep it .... most every line of performance animal was founded on luck .

    The Blueface were a product of a half dozen of the countries greatest cockers with crazy resources and it was a random dummy bird running loose that finally got thrown a hen to breed .... The Claret story is the same , tons of culls and 3 farms finally hit paydirt after years of their purposeful breedings failed.

    Some random Asil cock comes to port and nobody claims him ... becomes the source of good Roundheads . You could go on and on proving what it takes to create something great doesn't jive with how our brains wanna breed stuff .... most great foundation blood in all animals comes from guys hammering at the sport and stacking up the deadpile to find something that doesn't come along often and they take it to the brood pen ......

    The amount of successful crosses each year that really nick and get a win streak is way low .... 5% would be kind . The % of that 5% is way low to be turned into a long term family ... the only common denominator is throw the pedigrees and breeding charts away and see how fast you can go through fowl to find the ones that will make you look smart ... the other way don't work ... it only works if you want to do it and then just say it works and hope nobody wants you to show them or nobody on sabong sees you show them .
    It aint magic but I can see how some people believe in magic.

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  25. #856
    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Its not magic , but it's forces beyond our control and understanding . Hatch are Whitehackle/ Brownred ? Get some and try to make Hatch ....

    Try and cross a draft horse and quarter horse and recreate Joe Hancock .. You'll never do it

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  27. #857
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Its not magic , but it's forces beyond our control and understanding . Hatch are Whitehackle/ Brownred ? Get some and try to make Hatch ....

    Try and cross a draft horse and quarter horse and recreate Joe Hancock .. You'll never do it

    I dont want to create a hatch or any other OLD bloodline.

  28. #858
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Its not magic , but it's forces beyond our control and understanding . Hatch are Whitehackle/ Brownred ? Get some and try to make Hatch ....

    Try and cross a draft horse and quarter horse and recreate Joe Hancock .. You'll never do it
    Its a long shot I hear you. I make what suits me. If its a blend of some Butcher and 2 strains of Albany so be it. Ill make my own, to hell with what another man did 50 plus years ago. People have ruined what once was over time, can no longer rely on names or any of that bull.
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; October 16th, 2019 at 08:27 AM.

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  30. #859
    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Point is .. You can re create a model T or cornbread , it's science and we understand it . If we understood breeding roosters then we could make Hatch , Claret ,etc from scratch too

  31. #860
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Point is .. You can re create a model T or cornbread , it's science and we understand it . If we understood breeding roosters then we could make Hatch , Claret ,etc from scratch too
    u think Joe Hancock could win today?

  32. #861
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Point is .. You can re create a model T or cornbread , it's science and we understand it . If we understood breeding roosters then we could make Hatch , Claret ,etc from scratch too
    Thing is I wldnt try to recreate them, I just do what works bc those ingredients are long gone regardless of our understanding. Cant ever emulate what made those breeds.
    SF

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  34. #862
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    KevinG I'm with you. I had the butchers and I loved them. They even crossed with my mug but I only did. It one time. I still have people ask about the butchers. The Langstons have what's left. I'll continue to breed my mugs and keep them as strong and good as I can.

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  36. #863
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    KevinG I'm with you. I had the butchers and I loved them. They even crossed with my mug but I only did. It one time. I still have people ask about the butchers. The Langstons have what's left. I'll continue to breed my mugs and keep them as strong and good as I can.
    I cant say I blame you Del lol, you have a solid line there! Alot of work and dedication, earned and well deserved. Yes I love good Bucther fowl also, before you know it youre cut down but same with Mugg. Have had the personal pleasure to enjoy both bloodlines.
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; October 16th, 2019 at 08:42 AM.

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  38. #864
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    QP- Joe Hancock worked IN THAT TIME for a reason. He was part Percheron. That particular bloodline was bred in Europe for war and pulling. Big strong powerful animals. Now have u ever seen the build of a human SPRINTER compared to a marathoner? Same philosophy was applied to the quarter horse in that time. What we dont know is what the breeder of the Percheron bred for in that particular bloodline. Could of been speed, which wouldnt make that choice crazy. Breeders are always trying to get ahead or else they should be.

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  40. #865
    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Joe Hancock , Jim Thorpe , Simcoe , Tennessee Lead .. The beasts of the past would as much or more today .

    Many of us now worked hard to come up the ranks .. How many of you see the same qualities in the new hands of today .. Bet not many . I don't and even in my wife's world that reaches as far as s possible she doesn't either .

    The curve for hardcore anything has peaked and on the way down .. The hardcore roosters , hounds , horses and men of the past would massacre today's stuff ...

  41. #866
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Joe Hancock , Jim Thorpe , Simcoe , Tennessee Lead .. The beasts of the past would as much or more today .

    Many of us now worked hard to come up the ranks .. How many of you see the same qualities in the new hands of today .. Bet not many . I don't and even in my wife's world that reaches as far as s possible she doesn't either .

    The curve for hardcore anything has peaked and on the way down .. The hardcore roosters , hounds , horses and men of the past would massacre today's stuff ...
    Your theory has facts that contradict your opinion. Fastest quarter horse didnt come from the 1920ís, 1930ís, 1940ís, 1950ís, 1960ís, 1970ís, 1980ís, 1990ís.
    Same rings true for any speed sport for humans. Most speed RECORDS were broke IN THE LAST 10 YEARS. Once again. You have a very romantic view of horses too.

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  43. #867
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Can't judge em unless you line em up . Put Man O War , Secretariat or Sea Biscuit on the track today .. You aim gona whip them . You can't whip Ali ... You can't tree more coon or run fox longer than the legends

    Long knife and boxing you might be right .. But I show in heels and nobody ever let me put a pillow over my mouth before hitting me ..

  44. #868
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Can't judge em unless you line em up . Put Man O War , Secretariat or Sea Biscuit on the track today .. You aim gona whip them . You can't whip Ali ... You can't tree more coon or run fox longer than the legends

    Long knife and boxing you might be right .. But I show in heels and nobody ever let me put a pillow over my mouth before hitting me ..
    Were gaging SPEED. EASY to quantify. History keeps records. TODAYS ELITE are faster PERIOD.
    Not sure why your talking to me about your “pillow biting” but hey, “ I don’t judge.
    Hoodoo, voodoo, magic or what ever will only take u so far. LOL
    Facts & EXPERIENCE will get you farther.

  45. #869
    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    You show in heels or blade ? Sounds like you are pushing for blade .

  46. #870
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    U drunk again?...................

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