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Thread: Brother-sister Mating

  
  1. #871
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Ill agree at a specific track but when I research fastest horses. I see all kinds of different names.
    True bro. And although to me no horse has done the triple crown like Secretariat, youd think one would run one track at least of the 3 faster than him. None have on the grand stage. There s always someone better, faster, stronger but to find them. Often times it dont happen. Deion Sanders once said that the guys who stayed in Ft Myers drinking 40s that he could name a few that were faster than him! But they were never discovered due to the choices they made.
    SF

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  3. #872
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    What makes me laugh is California Chrome. Loved that horse for what he was. I think he cost 5 grand and from a no name stable. You saw what he did! Versus million dollar sheik horses. There is talent everywhere, not just on the major circuit or names.

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  5. #873
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    As far as I know, brother and sister mating is the shortest way in making seedfowls. I just heard this from a breeder friend.
    Anybody there? correct me if I'm wrong. I also want to know what is true

  6. #874
    Senior Member Mossy Dell's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    So much B/S excitement, makes me want to join the club. But if and when I do, the two fowl will be PERFECT. Because what you can't see isn't perfect. Like all breeding, inbreeding is walking a tightrope. Except with B/S that tightrope is really frayed. As you purify and line up gene pairs, you weaken. At what point are inbred fowl too weakened to be useful even for crosses? I wish some inbreeders would talk about that. About folks who went too far. Or can fowl always be brought back if you raise enough? Not in theory but in terms of what you saw and/or did.

    This article from Scientific American is interesting about the effect of massive linebreeding and inbreeding made possible by AI.

    From Two Bulls, Nine Million Dairy Cows

    Just two Y chromosomes exist in a huge population of U.S. Holsteins; researchers want to know what traits have been lost





    Credit: Cole Burston Getty Images

    There are more than 9 million dairy cows in the United States, and the vast majority of them are Holsteins, large bovines with distinctive black-and-white (sometimes red-and-white) markings. The amount of milk they produce is astonishing. So is their lineage. When researchers at the Pennsylvania State University looked closely at the male lines a few years ago, they discovered more than 99 percent of them can be traced back to one of two bulls, both born in the 1960s. That means among all the male Holsteins in the country, there are just two Y chromosomes.

    “What we’ve done is really narrowed down the genetic pool,” says Chad Dechow, one of the researchers.
    The females haven’t fared much better. In fact, Dechow—an associate professor of dairy cattle genetics—and others say there is so much genetic similarity among them, the effective population size is less than 50. If Holsteins were wild animals, that would put them in the category of critically endangered species. “It’s pretty much one big inbred family,” says Leslie B. Hansen, a Holstein expert and professor at the University of Minnesota.

    Any elementary science student knows that genetic homogeneity isn’t good in the long term. It increases the risk of inherited disorders while also reducing the ability of a population to evolve in the face of a changing environment. Dairy farmers struggling to pay bills today aren’t necessarily focusing on the evolutionary prospects of their animals, but Dechow and his colleagues were concerned enough that they wanted to look more closely at what traits had been lost.

    For answers, the researchers have begun breeding a small batch of new cows, cultivated in part from the preserved semen of long deceased bulls, to measure a host of characteristics—height, weight, milk production, overall health, fertility, and udder health, among other traits—and compare those to the modern Holsteins we’ve created. The hope is that they might one day be able to inject some sorely needed genetic diversity back into this cornerstone of livestock agriculture, and possibly reawaken traits that have been lost to relentless inbreeding.

    “If we limit long term genetic diversity of the breed,” Dechow says, “we limit how much genetic change can be made over time.”

    In other words, we could reach a point where we’re stuck where we’re at. There will be no more improvement in milk production. Fertility won’t improve. And if a new disease comes along, huge swaths of the cow population could be susceptible, since so many of them have the same genes.

    HOLSTEINS TODAY are responsible for the vast majority of milk we drink and much of our cheese and ice cream. For at least the past century, these animals have been prized for their voluminous output. Over the last 70 years or so, humans have introduced a variety of methods to ramp up production even further. In 1950, for example, a single dairy cow produced about 5,300 pounds of milk a year. Today, the average Holstein is producing more than 23,000. In 2017, a prize-winning cow named Selz-Pralle Aftershock 3918 cranked out 78,170 pounds of milk—more than 200 pounds every single day.

    “These cows are real athletes,” says Hansen.

    This benefits consumers by keeping food prices low. It benefits farmers because they save on costs when fewer cows produce the same amount of milk. It also benefits the environment because a cow’s digestive system produces considerable amounts of methane and waste. (Although high-producing Holsteins consume more energy and generate more waste per cow, researchers estimate that the efficiency gains result in significantly reduced environmental impacts overall.)

    Part of this success story has to do with changing the way Holsteins are raised and managed. But the biggest change has been in the way cows are bred. Long ago, farmers would bring in bulls from other farms to get their cows pregnant—a way of ensuring genetic diversity, or “stirring the pot,” as Hansen says. In the 1940s, they began to use artificial insemination. This way, a single dose of bull semen could be used to impregnate a whole lot of heifers. Soon, technology allowed the semen to be frozen, which meant a bull could father calves for decades, even long after he was dead. Meanwhile, the dairy world was keeping very detailed records, so the bull studs who sell the semen could tell which bull went on to produce the best offspring—and by the best offspring, they meant the daughters who produced the most milk.

    By this point, a highly sought-after bull would sire thousands of daughters. Carlin-M Ivanhoe Bell, a bull born in 1974, had more than 80,000 offspring. Most bulls have fewer, though their progeny still number in the thousands. By the 80s, it was clear inbreeding was increasing significantly.

    In the early days of artificial insemination, bulls would have to prove their merit in real life. That is, they’d sire 100 daughters, then when those daughters calved and began producing milk, their output was measured. The better the output, the more marketable the bull. This “progeny testing” was a valuable process, but it took several years to determine if a bull was any good.

    In 2009, new technology came along: big data and genomic selection. Today, a bull’s marketability is determined by a computer. A complex algorithm analyzes the bull’s genetic makeup, taking into account the health of his offspring, their milk production, the fat and protein in the milk, and other traits, to come up with figures that rank him against other bulls. The key figure is called lifetime net merit. It represents the average amount of money a farmer can expect to earn over the offspring’s life by choosing this bull over another one.

    While this allowed farmers to more efficiently evaluate animals across many key traits, the process also led to even higher rates of inbreeding. The “inbreeding coefficient” for Holsteins is currently around 8 percent, meaning an average calf gets identical copies of 8 percent of its genes from its mother and its father. That number is in comparison to a baseline of 1960—and it continues to increase by .3 or .4 every year.
    “Inbreeding is accumulating faster than it ever has,” Dechow says.

    But is 8 percent too much? Dairy experts continue to debate this. Some argue that Holsteins are doing their job, producing a lot of milk, and that they’re a relatively healthy bunch. Hansen, however, notes that if you breed a bull to his daughter, the inbreeding coefficient is 25 percent; in that light, 8 seems like a lot. He and others say while inbreeding may not seem like a problem now, the consequences could be significant.

    Fertility rates are affected by inbreeding, and already, Holstein fertility has dropped significantly. Pregnancy rates in the 1960s were 35 to 40 percent, but by 2000 had dropped to 24 percent. Also, when close relatives are bred, it’s more likely for cows get two copies of unwanted recessive genes, where serious health problems could be lurking.
    “Something needs to change,” Hansen says.

    For Dechow, the concern is the rate of increase and what that means for the future of the breed. “Imagine you’ve got a cow who has 100 really good genes and 10 really horrible genes. You eliminate that cow from your breeding program because she’s got 10 horrible genes,” he says, and “you’ve lost her 100 good ones, as well. You’re losing long-term genetic potential.”

    DECHOW GREW UP ON a dairy farm, so long before he knew the ins-and-outs of the cow’s genome, he could see some of what was happening.

    Holsteins look very different than they did 50 years ago. For one thing, they’ve been bred to have longer and wider udders, rather than deep ones. A deep udder can touch the ground, making it much more prone to infection or other problems, so that’s a change for the better. But other changes could be problematic. For example, modern Holsteins are bred to be tall and thin, to the point of boniness. That thinness is a byproduct of milk production, because “they’re directing the energy they consume towards milk,” Dechow says.

    But it’s also something of an aesthetic choice. The ideal Holstein cow—at least in the view of people who judge these things—is “feminine and refined.” That means thin and angular. The problem is, a tall, thin cow isn’t necessarily the healthiest cow and shorter and rounder cattle are more likely to get pregnant.

    A few years ago, Dechow and others started to wonder, just how significant was the inbreeding and loss of diversity? In the early 50s, there were about 1,800 bulls represented in the population. They knew there were fewer today, but they had no idea how few. Dechow and his colleagues Wansheng Liu and Xiang-Peng Yue analyzed the paternal pedigree information of nearly 63,000 Holstein bulls born since the 1950s in North America.

    “We were a little bit surprised when we traced the lineages and it went back to two bulls,” he says. They’re named Round Oak Rag Apple Elevation and Pawnee Farm Arlinda Chief. Each one is related to about half the bulls alive today. Essentially, Elevation and Chief outcompeted every other bull on the market. Even Select Sires, a company that is in the business of selling bull semen, was surprised by the findings. Charles Sattler, a company vice president, sees the news as a bit of a reality check, but not a cause for alarm. “Probably the biggest concern is, are there any really valuable genes we may have lost along the way that we could make use of today?” he wonders.

    Not too long ago, there was another Y chromosome represented, that of Penstate Ivanhoe Star, born in the 1960s. His decline demonstrates one problem with all this inbreeding. In the 1990s, dairy farmers around the world started noticing calves being born with such serious vertebrae problems, they didn’t survive outside the womb. Around the same time, calves were being stillborn with a condition called bovine leukocyte adhesion deficiency. It turns out Star, and his prolific son, Carlin-M Ivanhoe Bell, had problematic recessive genes that didn’t come to light until a few generations of inbreeding.

    After this discovery, farmers stopped breeding cows to Star’s descendants and that problem was resolved. But could other problems be lurking within the chromosomes of our remaining Holsteins? What had been lost with all this inbreeding? These questions troubled Dechow enough that he began searching out some of those old genes.
    That required digging into the archives of the National Animal Germplasm Programin Fort Collins, Colorado. It’s like a seed bank, except it collects ovarian tissue, blood, and semen from domesticated animals, and it holds about 7,000 cocktail-straw-sized semen samples from Holstein bulls.

    Dechow’s team found two that weren’t related to Chief or Elevation, so they took those samples, got eggs from top-notch females, and created embryos to implant into surrogate Penn State heifers. The idea was to combine the half-century-old Y genetics with DNA from females who are among the finest examples of modern-day milk production. Over the course of 2017, the animals wound up giving birth to 15 calves, seven of them male. The oldest of these animals are about two and two now have calves of their own.

    Every parameter in the development of these cattle will be measured, and their DNA is being analyzed and compared to the general population. It turns out that not a lot is known about the Y chromosome, so this is an opportunity to use this newly-introduced variation to understand it better.Semen samples were also taken from the bulls and sent to the germplasm bank in Colorado. Dechow can already see a difference on the ground in the way these cattle look. They’re a bit shorter than most Holsteins, and also heavier. They’re also a little less docile than average.

    Select Sires has collected semen samples from the bulls and run them through its grading program to so-so results; they came out in the middle of the pack. They’ve offered some of these samples for sale to dairy farmers, but sales so far have been minimal. Dairy farmers today are already struggling financially, and it’s not easy to convince them there’s a benefit to getting DNA from average bulls.

    Dechow is still hopeful that there will be more to gain from this research once the cattle mature.
    “My pie-in-the-sky dream,” Dechow says, “is that we’ll able to show these old genetics still have something to offer.”
    This article was originally published on Undark. Read the original article.





    Last edited by Mossy Dell; October 18th, 2019 at 03:27 AM.

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  8. #875
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Mossydell;

    What Ive noticed of inbred fowl is when there hitting the end you'll notice you get less and less to pen up each season.
    They will start getting sick more AND can pass it on to crosses.
    Hens will not set like before.
    They can loose gameness AND pass it on to crosses.
    Hens will lay very small eggs or just the skin of the egg.
    You will SEE they just have no vigor. Chicks move more lethargically. Not as active.

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    Senior Member Mossy Dell's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Okay, Goose.What you have described, sounds to me the breeder should have pulled back sooner. Maybe with a subfamily. Gotta make more lines.

    So how do you know when to stop BEFORE that? Stop from going too far?

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Mossy Dell View Post
    Okay, Goose.What you have described, sounds to me the breeder should have pulled back sooner. Maybe with a subfamily. Gotta make more lines.

    So how do you know when to stop BEFORE that? Stop from going too far?
    You always think you have time in addition to not wanting to mess with success. In 25 years we tried maybe 4 bloodlines. None were as good as the originals. My dad kinda gave up on keeping them pure. Just dont live no more.
    I seem to have found a family that compliments them recently. They might even be better. Time will tell.

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  13. #878
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    4 in 25 years ? None were good ? That's like playing penny slots with a few pennies and complaining .. Gotta get out in the world and get your hands dirty ..
    Hmmm, this is hard to explain to someone with your view of the world. Ill put it this way. You have some top notch pumpkins from Carter. Why are they no longer the same?
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; October 18th, 2019 at 08:28 AM.

  14. #879
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    The Pumpkin , Longtails and Morgans are still good as anything out there .. Better than most . I have a different vision for what I want for longheel . I have access to some good 1 in 1,000 type fowl . The Rampuri are 1 in 1.000.000 ..

    Pour dad trying four families in 25 years doesn't give you much experience but I like reading your posts and you keep it going ..l just doubt you own any fowl or keep a feather at your own house .. I won't tell anyone though
    I interviewed many fowl. None but 2 made it to the brood pen.
    u want to bet as much as you want on your theory?

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I'm not a gambler , but my experience an theory .. It's reality . You have any fowl at your house to be betting on?
    I can prove it now. U backing out?

  16. #881
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Same gameness as them pumpkins and asils I see LOL.

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Backing out on what ? I don't get the vibe you keep fowl .. Do th breeding , conditioning or handling .. I might be wrong , but doubt it and You can't prove it nor I disprove it .

    You got some nice McLean/Kelso stags that got you excited .. I hope they do good , I love stag season and to see someone with that fre they ain't had in a while
    Your all talk about accusations and chickens too. Lip service means nothing and im excited about my Kelso most. Crosses are nice too but not my idea of perfection.
    And yes I can prove it. Now!
    U said that I dont have chickens in the back yard. how bout just $1000. Blue can collect for me. I trust him.

  18. #883
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Im excited most cause my fowl are healthy & doing what there suppose to do. Its a long road trying to save a family u love. Filled with disappointment.

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  20. #884
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    I disagree to the fullest.
    nba players are taller and more athletic. Nfl players are taller and athletic. Every olympics has NEW records broken. I believe gamefowl over my life span hasent got any gamer but damn sure faster and cut better. Inbelieve this is due to mint lines of fowl that were bred true cutting gamefowl being tossed upon anyone who could afford them in combination with sites like this helping men that are good become great. Methods, breeding and care are all better then they were and easier to learn about now then back in the day in my opinion

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Not my pot to piss in but mongoose knows a few things forsure. I like to pick on him and give him a hard time but he knows fowl and has no problem sharing his opinions. Same goes for you.
    having said this, i havent seen a good husley in 20 years. I hate to say that but its true. Same goes for the morgans, they give it hell but caint take the heat. Got all the want to in the world but i havent seen any that belong on my yard

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Laying hens or a stag in a dome pen to look at don't count .. But I'm not a gambler , been to Vegas several times and didn't drop 20$ all together .. Don't bet in fowl either . Still don't think you you really are running a real yard on your own .. I know you don't

    But I agree with he rest , I'm happy for you . Jist odd you mention reviving your old old breed and asking me the same question .. Same old ,same old

    Cb , you are right .. It's a losing battle trying to breed something that is rare and not popular ... Doomed from he start
    The mainstream bloodlines steamroll you when a food pair dies off .. I'm not ready fro sweaters yet , but not fonna fall on my sword to save anything either .. No matter how apecial you think your fowl are .. There's more fish in the sea

    I believe your retarded cause an idiot would not pursue making it totally clear that there an idiot.
    I can excuse a retarded person fortunately.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; October 18th, 2019 at 10:49 AM.

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Sweaters lol, ive had some goodones but it hard to manage them aswell. Those big breeders that breed alot every year , my hats off to them for being able to produce good fowl year after year. I know they trade alot back and forth, i know several very big breeders on a personal level who will tell you buy mine and not his and its the same damn thing lol.
    Each to his own, i know you like your husleys, im sure crossed they are great fowl. Some men like tomfish in new lakes and some like to stay in the same one and learn it. I myself venture everynow and then but i like my little pond

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    I have a preference to stick with what has worked well for the last 25 years. I have seen fowl that look just as good but dont have the CONSISTENCY mine do. Most lack gameness or mental stability (Blade chickens)

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Didn't you get the rampuri because of a single spark you seen in a pen? Don't that contradict your post above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    No , a few posts on a thread or one video don't tell you much about the family .... even stories about seeing a family show a few seasons don't mean much when you are talking the history of a family that's been around for years and years ... no telling what all kind of blood or flavors just one family could have had .... but folks will tell a singular version of their history , makes em' look smart.

    I seen some baby stags and it floated my boat ... had a few good reviews and I took a chance . I never go into something expecting any more than a fair shake .... what happens after that is luck of the draw . I tried 4 pretty special Rampuri cocks over that time frame ... 2 were good , 2 not so much .

    I made 4 or 5 trips to Mcnatt's ... got some good ones , some I didn't keep after trying them . Sometimes I just try a random hen or cock ... and results reflect . If i like something then I invest in the line , not just one trio . My buddy has gotten 3 of Gators YLH to find the right fit and raise enough to get real results ...

    I do all kinds of crazy stuff ... don't copy me , kids ... but I know the risk and reality of it .

    I would definitely say you've spent more money on fowl than I have.
    You use the words like “magic”, “spark” and other hocus pocus words quite a bit.
    I can DEFINITELY tell you that it aint magic. Problem for you is this; you cant breakdown what “magic” is and until u do. You will always be looking. You really act like a beginner in this game.

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    I would definitely say you've spent more money on fowl than I have.
    You use the words like “magic”, “spark” and other hocus pocus words quite a bit.
    I can DEFINITELY tell you that it aint magic. Problem for you is this; you cant breakdown what “magic” is and until u do. You will always be looking. You really act like a beginner in this game.
    Everybody doesn't have to be everything in ever sport...

    Some people are breeders, some feeders, conditioners, care takers, gamblers. Each has a place.

    We all have different resources, access to different stock etc.

    There aint just one path to success. I would find no joy in winning with fowl acquired from someone else. I didn't "make 'em" so there's no pride in it, FOR ME.

    Some people's pride and joy lies in their ability to see, select, prepare and win. Doesn't matter where their charges came from.

    Different goals. Same game. Doesn't make one or the other wrong.

    MinuteMan

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by MinuteMan View Post
    Everybody doesn't have to be everything in ever sport...

    Some people are breeders, some feeders, conditioners, care takers, gamblers. Each has a place.

    We all have different resources, access to different stock etc.

    There aint just one path to success. I would find no joy in winning with fowl acquired from someone else. I didn't "make 'em" so there's no pride in it, FOR ME.

    Some people's pride and joy lies in their ability to see, select, prepare and win. Doesn't matter where their charges came from.

    Different goals. Same game. Doesn't make one or the other wrong.

    MinuteMan
    I dont see how your response is to my write up.

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    I dont see how your response is to my write up.

    It wasn't necessarliy to that particular one. It was to the over all back and forth.
    I'm saying I don't think either of you is "wrong". You each have diferent goals. Staying at the top Vs Keeping MY STOCK at the top.

    You like to make boxing comparisons, so. I see you as a trainer. QPK seems more of a manager. The manager and trainer don't do the same thing, but END goal of each is to win. Trainer want's his charge he's invested all the training into to win. Manager wants this kid he's scouted to win, and keep winning. lol

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by MinuteMan View Post
    It wasn't necessarliy to that particular one. It was to the over all back and forth.
    I'm saying I don't think either of you is "wrong". You each have diferent goals. Staying at the top Vs Keeping MY STOCK at the top.

    You like to make boxing comparisons, so. I see you as a trainer. QPK seems more of a manager. The manager and trainer don't do the same thing, but END goal of each is to win. Trainer want's his charge he's invested all the training into to win. Manager wants this kid he's scouted to win, and keep winning. lol
    Interesting. The difference between the two is one UNDERSTANDS the fight game and the other....I don't care about the other.

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    I'd be rich and famous if hind sight was 20/20. Most of us don't realize what we have until it's too late. When I had 5 inbred hatch. Oaks if I'd mass produced them over straight mug hens the color of fowl now would be half brown red or black red peacomb mugs.

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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I've had my own hounds and chickens since I was 12 .. Stripped grass seed and caught grasshoppers at night to feed stags when there wasn't money for feed . Did both with no help and always trained my own hounds and roosters

    There are a lot of things you will see when you are on that end that you can articulate , explain or emote to others as you experienced it .

    Phenomenal brood fowl have came from cocks , hens , inbred , crossbreed, scatterbred , aces , duds .... Not a single person can explain why or how to repeat that .

    I could say .... mongoose , go mate up a pair of your choosing and send me a stag that is a phenomenal producer and will let me quit my job .. You can't do it . You still have a day job yourself .. So how you gonna say you know what's behind the magic of great fowl .. Because your keyboard sits still and lets you is why
    You obviously dont know what TO DO with great fowl. Your always waiting for someone else to do all the work for you. What you will never understand is great fowl come from GREAT men who KNOW gamefowl.
    EVERYONE wants to be a millionaire. There are many men out there who will tell you how to become a millionaire BUT non of them are millionaires. LOL
    Im in this game for the love of it. I love raising fowl. I love breeding fowl. I love out thinking my opposition with my brood pens. I love the look on there face after. It aint the money.

    Short story; met a fast winning cock. Mines a little slower. Both arent playing. After 2 pittings there both 75% down but mine sprung a little leak. I ask for another 100. Some guy jumps on it. Both birds are still throwing but mind is more accurate. His runs off. Point of the story is I KNEW I could make an extra 100 easily and someone would jump on it.

  38. #897
    Banned grey/dom's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    The writer of ths stats doesn’t play the game. He is just writing.

    I couldn’t say I am a successful cocker. But, I am a successful family man and father of 4 grown up
    kids.

    I fight in the bushes. And more wins than losing every weekend after resting from my daily job.

    I am a happy cocker. My chickens may not be invincible but a lot of people calls out the odds coz they believe my chickens could win. For only that. I am thankful.

    I could bet 10t or more to get rich. But I bet 500 just buy some beers and be merry afterwards

    I am a simpleton and for that again. I enjoy life.

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  40. #898
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    You don't know me . This is a rooster forum , not online shrink .

    Great fowl are singular .. You get one , don't build walls around the farm and go inbreed crazy thinking you have hit pay dirt .. Do the best you can but keep your eyes peeled . Listen to Bruce Lee . Be like water

    But, that's not for you . You show places where you never seen your equal in 25 years ..keep that honey hole a secret and next time bet $200 .
    Its easy to know you. You put yourself out there. Its You who does it not me.

    “Stupid is as stupid does”—Forest Gump. LOL

  41. #899
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    I have really enjoyed this thread lots of knowledge and helping other game fowl people thanks

  42. #900
    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: Brother-sister Mating

    Can someone bring up Ray's thread on bs mating and how he suggests how to do it?

  43. Likes regulargrey liked this post

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