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Thread: Brother-sister Mating

  
  1. #121
    Ray Boles
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    While I have time to write , let me clear up a few things. In the last year I have reached my goal in gamefowl. I know, some are saying he never won at sunset , others are saying he never won the world slasher, but that are your goals. My goal was to get you to THINKING. When people start to really thinking for them selves they step out of the dark and make real progress. I want to be know as the man who revolutionized the thinking process in gamefowl. Never stop THINKING. The human brain is a marvelous gift from God, never stop using it. I has no limitations.

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  3. #122
    Jarque
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    A very, very, very good post!!!!!


    I tip my hat to you................



    Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

  4. #123
    ellisgamefowl
    Guest

    Ray you definately have us THINKING....

    I'm looking forward to your revised version of your method . I hope you post it here the same way you did the first one.......so I can copy it , and save it in my documents .

    I'm also looking forward to reading the research you said you'd post later on .

    Modern science has improved almost everything we have today , except for our moral values......but that's another debate .

    I have a little schooling in the science of Chemistry , I worked as a quality control lab tech. for the last 10 years before I started raising gamefowl full time . We could produce any type of rubber , for any purpose the customer wanted . We accomplished this through trail and error . We'd develope a compound (formula) then make a test sample , then we'd test it's propertys to make sure the product would hold up under what ever environment it was being made for .

    Science has made this sap that comes out of a tree into a material that can be used for a million things . I have no doubt that with a closer look at the genetic makeup of a gamecock , and through trial and error of these discoveries WE CAN IMPROVE THE GAMECOCK TO A LEVEL IT'S NEVER BEEN AT BEFORE . I applaud your effort , and hope you continue sharing what you learn .

  5. #124
    buhawi
    Guest

    ray

    you made me think for a while.................and i made you talk for a moment..........:lol:

    you`ll never ever know until you breed them:lol:
    and pit test their offsprings:lol:

    then and only then you would know you are locked inside a wrong can.....with the key fastened outside.........

    ray in locking those genes.............

  6. #125
    dinks
    Guest

    breeding

    thinking is good to help this ole mind along.but i think you are wrong about the history part ray.your sweaters and roundheads were probley set as a strain along time ago by some other breeder.the roundheads were for sure.becasue allen set themthat way period.sweaters more than likley too.all you have done was just improve the breeding on them.everything was their to start with.because they were winning with them 80yrs ago.as far as the genetics goes hugh norman was far ahead on genetics as anyone. ray your fowl are sweaters yleg asil yleg and roundhead white leg.your genes are already there.peahead yleg fighting style the same except the asil.and their amune system is way above average.you breed very wisely. as far as goals set mine has been set and done for several yrs.won several derby around home won the first lk derbyas the ole clear creek pit in north alabama every had. roy odoms and hi sfamily was running it at that time. first time to enter punkin valley pit that bruce barnett and roy odoms ran won 2 derbys their that was in 1978.went to the milkdairy in lousiana and won it. won several hacks and smel;l dergys around home durning the 80 and 90s had the chance to go olk at the july 4th derby and won 123 234. that was in 1999. went back to milkdairy in 2000 and 2001 won a couple down there again.won at squabs,browns,bugsussell collionsville,holks bluff . so my goals have been meet to.now i sell and fight a few now.still looking i guess.but genetics have been around for a long time education is the key to that. it unlocks doors all around you.fighting your brood stock is also the key.i dont see haow a man can go out to a farm and pick up a cock and tel you trhat he willl throw winners .all roosters are no the same.some may be wing floppers some botton of foot fighters some duckers. i just don see that period.just my opion dinks

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  8. #126
    ka king
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    cockmates

    to the person started this thread and to all the contributors, from the beginners big mouth......I SAY THANK YOU AND PLS KEEP THIS THREAD DISCUSSION GOING, WITH YOU GUYS GIVING YOUR BEST IDEAS ON THIS SUBJECT MATTER. THIS REALLY A BIG HELP AND ENLIGHTENS US ABOUT THIS SPORTS/HOBBY.

    as i would analyze it, most of the contributors have already been into breeding for a couple of centuries already.i humbly asked of you to please past your valuable knowledge and ideas to the younger generation to keep this sports/hobby going.

    KEEP GOING GUYS!!!!!

  9. #127
    Ray Boles
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    My sweaters are, for the last time 3/4 kelso and 1/4 yellow leg hatch as breed by Cecil Davis, and passed on to others.The stock I obtained had no out side infusion. The white leg comes from the Kelso and the Yellow leg from the hatch. What others peoples Sweaters are I do not know. If someone can find any records of a family being set as I have mine please post it I will be very glad to read it. Bruce is my first cousin, I have know Carol since he was 7 years old, Newton Wade, George Lay and all the others that raised sweaters I have known for 30 plus years. Most were close friends and I know how they breed fowl, none of them used this method. Mabey others have tried this metod but I have never seen it in print. All I have heard from game fowl breeders in my life time is IT CAN NOT BE DONE. Men if you think my breeding method is controversial just wait until I start posting on feeding, moisture control and some of the other old myths.

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  11. #128
    ka king
    Guest
    RAY BOLES,

    looking forward with the post......feeding etc..

  12. #129
    epcvirus
    Guest
    That's very good idea Ray so please post them as soon as posible. We are indeed lucky to hear from guys like you.....

    Keep on posting Ray

  13. #130
    Marabella
    Guest
    Ray Boles posted earlier: "There has been more scientific research done on game fowl in the last 5 years than has been done in the last 100."
    That's true Mr. Boles. We should be thankful for that.
    In the Philippines where I come from, feed manufacturers like Thunderbird, Sagupaan; and supplemnt and medication experts like Lakpue, Excellence Gamefowl Specialist; and many others are into scientifice research on gamefowl.
    There are at least two cocking schools in RP. One is the Phillipine Cocking School and the other is a cocking academy or something.
    In Cebu, Philippines my home province, there is the RB Sugbo Gamefowl Technology which is not only into breeding but also into serious research and development of techniques in raising and fighting game fowl.
    On breeding, Dr Andrew Bunan, also of Excellence Gamefowl Specialist, is even trying to develop a way of preserving the sperm of a brood cock for future use.
    My point here is that the once frown upon brother-sister mating could now be supported by findings of latest researches. For one, Dr. Bunan a phd on breeding and genetics is a strong advocate of the bro-sister mating in creating a bloodline.

  14. #131
    BULLET2
    Guest

    RIGHT!

    BUHAWI,

    YOU'RE RIGHT , I AGREE WITH YOU, ONE SHOULD FOCUS ON INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS OF OUR FOWL, SPECIALLY WITH REGARDS TO THE WINNING STRAINS, MULTIPLE WINS YES, BUT BE SURE THAT HE SHOULD WIN WITH A LITTLE DAMAGE. A GOOD MULTIPLE WINNER DOES NOT MEAN ALSO A GOOD BROODCOCK RIGHT, YOU SHOULD ALSO BETTER KNOW THAT A GOOD BROODCOCK SHOULD PASS ITS GENES TO ITS OFFSPRING AND SO THE BROODHENS. BEFORE I HAVE READ THE BOOKS OF FRANK SHY " THE NARRAGANSETTE" I HAVE ALREADY MADE IT AND EXACT TO WHAT HE MEANS, AN ACE COCKS DOES NOT ALL POSSES A GOOD APPEARANCE LIKE WHAT OTHERS HAVE BEEN EXPECTING. " NOT ALL COCKS POSSESES THE SAME FIGHTING STYLE" I'DE BE HAPPY TO TELL ANYONE THAT I HAVE MADE A SUPER ACE COCKS RATHER THAN TELLING THAT I HAVE A PURE BLOODLINES, REGARDLESS OF PLUMAGE, I SELECT MY FOWL VERY WELL. AS FRANK SHY HAVE SAID THAT YOU CAN FIND A GOOD BROODCOCK ONLY IN 5YEARS IN MATING EVEN ONLY IN YOUR OWN BREEDING. KEEP ON COCKING.

    RAY, MY FRIEND, GOODLUCK!!!!!!:rbounce: :rbounce: :rbounce:

  15. #132
    dinks
    Guest

    ray

    from what i have seen on your web sight you have some good looking strain of chickens, your breeding method works very well for you.a little more history on your cecil davis fowl. davis walk chickens for kelso for many yrs(a corrding to history in the magazines). sweater work for kelso and brought some yellowlegs with him. acording to history these yellowleg was very inpressive fighting stlyle.kelso breed them.he sent cecil davis some to walk for him.cecil breede them. set them as a strain aback in the late 60 and early 70s. they were very good fighters seen them fight alot . they came both straight and peahead.a frien of mine near snead alabama gave a very good price for a trio back thenthe cock was a dark peahead white leg. hens was a buff color white leg.he single mate them and a few came yellowleg.he had a crussin fitt.davis told him some would come yellowleg.if you are first cousin to bruce barnett then you should know buddy barnett and scotthouse.from eastaboga alabama.scotthouse got one of the 5 yellowleg cocks that harold brown raised form the origional cock that came from ted mclean. harold brown got 11 hens when davis died.some was straight comb. seems llike sonny brown told that ray alexandia got a couple of them. like i said before only close friends pass the good fowl between them back in the good ole days.sweat mcguiness feed and fought chickens for all the good breeders back then.so the game fowl magazines tell us.law,kelso percy flowers,john o fowler harold brown and many others.i may be wrong i think he spent some time with johnny jumper also.

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  17. #133
    ellisgamefowl
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    Where are you from Dinks ?

    Sorry to get off the subject , but I have a question for you Dinks.......

    Is Scott House and Jerry House related ?

    The reason I'm asking is because a friend of mine , Harold Henry....you probably know him with all these local pit names you've been mentioning........gave us a YL Hatch hen 4 years ago . He said he got them from Jerry House about 20 years ago , maybe longer.......anyway , I'm wondering if you know anything about this YL Hatch blood .

    We bred her under a NeSmith Sweater cock and the offsprings were unbelievable , they have the hardest shuffle of any chickens I've raised , and are game to the core........we had one of these sweater/yl hatch cocks get blinded in the first pitting last year in a gaff derby......they started laying 2 to 1 odds against him.......that cock would stand in the line and turn around in circles , pecking , trying to find his opponent......when he did he'd turn loose a shuffle that was ment to kill......after about an hour of this he finally did win the fight.......that cock , being blind took alot of punishment......he'd get hit first every pitting......but he never quit trying to win and showed me TRUE DEEP GAMENESS........an hour after the fight I took him out of the keep stall to check on him......when I set him down he was still turning in circles ......pecking constantly trying to find something to hit .

    This year I bred him to a hen thats 1/2 kelso 1/4 yl hatch 1/4 sweater........that'll make the offsprings 3/8 yl hatch 3/8 sweater 1/4 kelso.......I plan on breeding back to this cock as many years as he's able to breed........any info. on this yl hatch blood would be appreciated . Harold wont sell me a pure cock , we were lucky to get the hen........he just wont let them go.......I'd like to find someone else who has them so I could get a pure cock .

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  19. #134
    buhawi
    Guest

    cutting.........and only cutting is the name of the game

    we don`t breed here in philippines such cocks that went into drag..............that means to us ...............poor cutting............had he cut his adversary accurately and precisely...........the fight would not surely end to a drag.

    not because he showed extreme gameness he would be qualified to be put in a breeding pen.............no sir............that`s not the case here in the philippines.

    i respect your opinion and method as a gaff fighter...........but for longknife`s sake...........no way sir:lol:

    i`d rather win 8 out of 10 out of cutting ability............than winning 2 out of 10 out of gameness:lol: or i`ll be out soon of business:lol:

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  21. #135
    ~Ace~
    Guest
    AS FRANK SHY HAVE SAID THAT YOU CAN FIND A GOOD BROODCOCK ONLY IN 5YEARS IN MATING EVEN ONLY IN YOUR OWN BREEDING. KEEP ON COCKING.
    Well... if that is the type of breeding method one wants, so unpredictable that every 5 years you Might find a Brood Cock, then by all means, Follow It. I breed Very close to the same as Ray, I did so Before I read his method, as that's how I have bred Performance Dogs for years. That being said, IF you have to look that hard for a brood cock using his method, you started with Very Poor stock, if you can notice a large degree of difference in the second generation offspring from the Bro/ Sis mating, you must keep doing it until you don't.. Starting with a "Family" that breeds true would require less effort to "Set" but if you have a Multi way Cross, that has Light, Dark, Pea, Straight, and other variances, it will take more time and effort, and Not All families are Good enough in the first place, if you have poor birds, don't expect this to "Fix" them.

    Being as Inbreeding adds Nothing, only concentrates what's already there, you must have good birds, and a solid idea in your head of what you want them to be. As said before, Selection is the Key.. Breed only the individuals that have the Phenotype (Look) you are attempting to Preserve. Birds have a High rate of Mutation, as I posted earlier, Be aware of this in each generation, a bird that suddenly is Larger, Faster, Stronger.. Breeding to this individual will Add these qualities to the offspring, I suggest using birds as such in Test Mating before carelessly introducing it back into an already good family.... it may help it, may hurt it, but if you lacking in Size after a few years, and get a large bird, Breeding to him Can an Will bring your sizes back up and produce a hybrid vigor from Within... But with the Size he May carry other Baggage, with a Mutation often comes a doubling up of Resesive genes, stuff that's already there but hidden from you.

    winning the fight is important.............but in the philippines........we are looking for the ............FASTEST KILL
    Hap hazard breeding May get you the fastest kill This Week... Uniformity will get you Close to the fastest kill Every Week, and in the Quick Kill Pot Much more often, Scatter breeding is Great for one hit wonders, and is often used by people that win Impressive fights, but Very few Derbies. ~Ace~


    Professor !! The Breeding is Enough... NO Need to Complicate the Cocking community with any Nonsense on Feeding and Pointing... Please

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  23. #136
    epcvirus
    Guest
    Very good point Ace.

  24. #137
    Ray Boles
    Guest
    Marabella I will be in the PI for the World Slasher and the Candelaria to see who has the best score of pure Sweaters fought. If possible I would like to meet Dr. Bunan and discuss breeding with him. ACE I am glad you understand where I am coming from. I posted a picture of a 6!/2 stag earlier to show how to increase size with selection. I have selected fowl , for intellignece, power, no bill hold etc and when breed back these traits came out because they did not have to deal with a bunch of mixed up genes. At this time I am working on the immune system and food efficiency. The things you posted are correct in every way. In my origional method I guess I did not go into enough detail.

  25. #138
    ka king
    Guest
    Keep on posting guys!!!! this really helps us alot!

  26. #139
    ellisgamefowl
    Guest

    Buhawi don't get me wrong here.........

    I'm not saying that the cock I mentioned above would be suitable as a long knife broodcock .

    I'm breeding that cock for one thing , his gameness ...... his will to fight harder after he's hurt ...... his constant pecking when the chips are down........ these are qualitys you have to have in gaff competition .

    Like I stated earlier , I don't follow any certain method of breeding ....... I have many different broodpens/experiments ........with this cock I'm hoping to set a line that shows his outstanding abilitys........power and gameness ....... I added 1/4 kelso this year hoping it will improve their cutting ability without losing the gameness .

    I also have some quick kill brood cocks I'm breeding ....... these brood pens are my LK experiments . I'm also interested in a line of quick cutting/killing fowl like you are........ but my goal is to breed fowl that possess both qualitys .......deep gameness and superior cutting ability .

    I will not breed fowl for cutting ability alone ...... they will be worthless in gaff competition . Cutting ability will get you to the drag pit ahead , in gaff competition , but it wont get you through the drag pit unless the gameness is there .

    We just have different goals for our fowl ......you are breeding strictly for LK competition ...... I'm breeding for gaff , lk , and sk .

    Having said all that , I do think that cock would make an excellant broodcock for LK competition.......if that were my goal for this line I'd breed him to one of my roundhead hens.......that would add the mobility and cut he's lacking . Maybe......

    Like you stated earlier........you never know untill you try it .

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  28. #140
    dinks
    Guest

    ellis

    im not for sure abgout that.i just remember scotthouse because he fought the spangle yellowleg. he and harold brown fought together then.i was around 8 or 9 yrs old then,my uncle sold some white whiskey there several times. i guess when you that young you sorter pick someone to be your hero in a sport.scoothouse and harold brown was mine at the time. but harold brown let scoitthouse have a yellowleg spangle cock to fight and he was very impressive. scotthouse must have raised alot of that line of chickens.as for as your question about the yellowlegs ted mclean sent harold brown a yleg red peahead cock. that was supose to be 1/2 mclean hatch and 1/2 boston roundhead. harold brown cross this cock over some hatch hens.(dont know what kind of hens but brown had the ole percy fowlers blueface the leipper hatch and mclean hatch. 5 were yellowleg staggs a couple were spangle in color.scotthouse fought these and were very good cocks. harold brown gave him the spangle,sent doc robinson one clearence stewart got one and brown kept the others.seems like that i read somewhere that sweatergot one.not for sure about that.to me the yellowleg hatch are same as the ole boston roundhead.now the sweaters are adifferent story. boles say they area kelso yellowleg cross.ive heard this myself.but they was not popular untill after buddy barnetts death.i think buddy and bruce barnett were brothers. boles can tells us that for sure.i do know this Vincent Chew of the islands gave carroll knesmith a very good price for a straight comb yellowleg cock that won a guick lk fight at clear creek.when the cock and hens were pick up 2 of the hens were white and 2 were yellowleg. vincent chew carried them to a friend nameof bobby harper to raise for him.i knopw this for a fact because i went with them. to tell you the truth when bobby made this cross they were some of the sorriest cocks i ever seen put into a sporting event. i think vincent chew gave bobby the rest ot the staggs that he had raised.and also the hens.he took the cock back to califorina. now caroll and chris knesmith have some very good cocks.im not knocking them none what so every. the sweaters i have came from them in 1999.ive had them for awhile now.im sorry ellis i got off of the subject a little bit.so the yellowlegs of ole were a boston roundhead/mclean hatch cross breed back over some hatch hens. thats all i can tellyou about that. now sweater mountain on the gamerooster would know about scotthouse for sure. dinks

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  30. #141
    dinks
    Guest

    ellis

    man i sorry i didnt answer all your guestions. im from near gadsden alabama betweeen there and birimingham. ive had roundheads around me for a while daddy had them uncles had them. the best that was around these parts were from davenport florida. mr vasco b sibert let daddy have them. they were awesome. the next best i have every own was the brunner rhead. but these were very very mean. they would hunt you down.mine came fromthe eppersons brothers of attalla alabama. just my opion

  31. #142
    Underhack
    Guest

    Johnnie Jumper quote

    Here is a Johnnie Jumper quote from a past issue of the grit and steel. " When we mate them up we keep selecting the nicest daughters to breed back to the male and the nicest sons to breed back to the females and then pick the nicest brothers and sisters and breed them"

    Well I am not sure if he is talking about after he breeds back to each parent he crosses the cocks offsping over the hens offsping or if he just takes each parents offspings and breeds brother sister not crossing mating over the others? What do you guys think?
    After you get your genes locked do you recomend going back to each individual and how far like 7/8,15/16, 1/32 and then crossing one indivuduals offsping over another individuals or do you like going to one indivdual and then breeding brother sister again and basically restarting the whole process again?

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  33. #143
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Frank Shy

    I think when Frank Shy said that a good brood cock comes around every five years, he was not thinking straight. There are alot of things that I do not agree with that Shy said.

    If I rember right, he said that he did not breed anything over four years old. I think they are just hitting their prime at four years old.

    Was he not a breeder of the best to the best with no regard of all those genes floating around.

    Like Ray said in another post, You very seldom here of the Narragansetts now days.

    Ellis, you can put gameness into lk birds with out slowing them down or loosing cut. I breed for all three as well. I just have specific fowl for LK but they still carry the gameness it takes to go to the drag, just incase.

  34. #144
    ellisgamefowl
    Guest

    Thanks for sharing what you could Dinks....

    You being from Gadsden , I'm sure we've rubbed elbows a time or two . We use to go to the old Pine Forrest pit once a month , Collinsville too . And Buggtussle a few times .

    We just might run into one another at browns or swaub next year ....... I'll be the ugly feller with the nice arrowhead hanging from my neck......you wont miss it , I like to show it off.......stop me and introduce yourself ......I love talking chickens .

  35. #145
    ellisgamefowl
    Guest
    Jim , It's my opinion that deep gameness is the foundation you should start with when you want to set a family .

    I think once you've established a line that's powerful and game it's much easier to select future brood material for the qualitys they might be lacking .

    If the gameness is there , they can be improved . If it's lacking .....even a little I don't want to waste my time with them .

    I also think that their's a big misconception when we speak of our deep game roosters here to the Filipino audience.......that deep game blind rooster i'm talking about has brothers that have won quick fights . But I chose to breed him . If I can set this line that will throw stags that try to win as hard as he did , I know that I can add the qualitys they are lacking through selection to improve them . If I can keep them fighting as hard and game and add a little more mobility I think they could win in any weapon.....which is my goal .

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  37. #146
    cebu 45
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    hi Mr.rey boles ive been following all of your topics and im interested to it i read a lots of magaznes all about how they made there cocks better because as of this year i decided to breed fgthing cocck so pls helr me hope that u can help me

  38. #147
    Senior Member colt39's Avatar
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    Ellis

    Well put. I think you are right. A good lk cock can still be good with gameness. I to make sure they have gameness.

    I feel that if a bird has enough life to raise his head, he has enough life to peck. If he can stand, he better kick also. If they do not, they are not as game as they should be.

    You can have awesome lk birds that posses that true gameness. This is my thinking on this. In lk you want the fast kill. This is what everybody wants. You are going to meet a lot of fast kill birds with your fast kill birds. If they go thgether & cut each other to pieces, I want to have the gameness to peck last & give me the win instead of a draw or even a loss.

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  40. #148
    cebu 45
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    befor i decided to breed cocks ive been always follwing all your topics some pipol say to me that cocck figthing s too much expensve but i never let my self discourage infact as of this year im starting to save my money bec. im planning to have a cock but it tkes a lot of time bec. im still studying as of this time:teeth:

  41. #149
    paulajay
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    pick what you want, and try to experiment

    this thread was truely helpful to anyone, specially the novice.

    just pick the one to wanted to follow....


    and OH! al the post here are great...

    cheers!
    Pj

  42. #150
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    percentage in bloodlines is not my cup of tea

    yup not my cup of tea the only percentage I am very familiar with is my 5% commission when I sell a real estae property .
    seriously I get dizzy with the % sign.

    buhawi you are right I did dabble into the brother-sister mating but only to get the closes fowl to get a seed fowl and maintain the line. smaller they got so I stopped after the 3rd year.
    they say I should not fight the fowls for they might already have the recessive traits but because I did not mind experimenting I still fought the male at "daan hari" coliseum some two years ago...

    It won in a very spectacular manner pilay the left foot but still killed the opponent. it never sulked and did not even think of running, it just kept on hitting the opponent.

    BPZ I think did not go into linebreeding or in breeding for he lost his white lines... he admitted on air that he has lost his whites.
    he is still doing some experimentation now.

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