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Thread: ruble and blueface hatches

  
  1. #1
    tj
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    Post ruble and blueface hatches

    mga sir,

    I would like to ask if ruble and bluface hatch is the same? and if not what is the difference on their fighting style? And i heared that ruble figthing style is "bottom" what does it mean? What is the figthing style of C.C.Givens hatch? Any replies will be much appriciated..

  2. #2
    Senior Member wildfoot's Avatar
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    tj,

    The simple answer is yes they are different, but having said that, someone’s blueface could be somebody else’s Ruble. Billy Ruble originated the Ruble’s, while the blueface has been around longer than the latter and was made popular by A certain Sweater Mc Ginnis. Having been around both of these breeds I know a little bit about them. Let me first warn you that these are NOT a beginners long knife rooster’s if bred pure, you have to cull hard and be very selective if you want to fight these in the long knife. With what I breed now I would be lucky to get 2 out of 10 that are suitable for the long knife. Even then you would be lucky again to find multiple winners as these are in-fighting and rarely come out unscratched after a battle.

    When I first got my Trio of Ruble’s the Rooster was blue legged as with one pullet but the other pullet was Green legged (did not realise this till I got home). Any way I bred them and got 9 stags, 8 with blue legs and 1 green legged. I fought them in the gaff as cocks and all the blue legged lost and the one green legged won many times. I was going to discard them ( with such a bad record even my friends did not want them) until I decided to breed the multi winning green leg rooster back to his mother. I got 50/50 green and blue (in the stags, more blue leg hens though) and again I got the same result the greens were winning but the blue just can’t cut. The blue legged are very fast fowl, if sparred, every single time one would choose the blue legs but the cutting of green legs was lethal I call them “One Hit Wonders” … One hit and you wonder…….LOL. I then culled them really hard, as soon as a blue legged cockerel turned up I would discard it but I would keep the hens as the blue legged hens gave me the same number of green legged stags. I decided to cross the blue leg in to my Kelso and got excellent roosters. So now I cross the blue legs and fight the green pure, but until recently I found out another thing. I was short of one rooster for a show and picked a stag by mistake and even worse it was a blue legged and it won with ease, I did the same with their brothers and got the same result. After fighting them for so many years I realise that they were better fought as bullstags rather than cocks (the blue legs), they somehow change after the second moult. The blue legs look very much different, they are black red almost mahogany but not quite, their tails are rainbow-like in shape almost like a bow of an arrow and the green legs are light reds with lemon hackles with black striping in their hackles, almost like the hackles of the brown reds, their tails are upright and wide (im staring at one out the window as I write). Again these are my fowls and just relating my experience, other breeders of this fowl have the same consensus. I will tell about my blue face and the difference in their fighting style a bit later………

    Keep em game.

    wildfoot

  3. #3
    Senior Member roundhead's Avatar
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    Question

    hey Wildfoot;

    how about the mclean green legs? are they related to the blueface at all or one and the same? I actually thought that mclean, blueface and other green legged hatches are one and the same. in fact are they considered part of the hatch family? what constitutes the hatch families anyway? as in basic 'old' lines(only if you know).

  4. #4
    tj
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    Originally posted by roundhead:
    hey Wildfoot;

    how about the mclean green legs? are they related to the blueface at all or one and the same? I actually thought that mclean, blueface and other green legged hatches are one and the same. in fact are they considered part of the hatch family? what constitutes the hatch families anyway? as in basic 'old' lines(only if you know).
    Can anyone answer this question..And Sir wildfoot thanks for the info. that will be one of my great christmas gift. Thanks again. And merry christmas to you and all the sabungero in the world. But answer this question please...

  5. #5
    orlando mendoza
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    BLUEFACE HATCH was originated from ted maclean given to lum gilmore it was a small station cock and a hard hitter when spur he turned blue in the face that why lum gilmore called this small rooster blueface...the making of the blueface fowl is 1/2 madigin regular grey and 1/2 ted maclean the progeny
    of this mating where known as the BLUEFACE HATCH FOWL

    yifs : little boxwood

  6. #6
    tj
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    Talking

    sir wildfoot,

    What hatches will best suit for begginers or what are the best hatches today?
    Sir do you have any information about Mclean, C.C.Givens and leiper hatches? thanks for the reply..

    tj

  7. #7
    Senior Member wildfoot's Avatar
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    Roundhead,

    My Mclean are light green legs with pea comb, medium stationed, lemon hackled, light red. My next door neighbour has them but is totally different from mine, his is dark red with straight comb, but generally the typical Mclean is pea comb. My Mclean breaks high on the first buckle and then stays on the ground they are better knife rooster's. They cut well and are better ring generals than most hatch, I have not come across anyone yet that did not like them.

    tj,

    Sorry, I cant tell you anything about Givens or Lieper Hatch as I have not come across any, I have heard good things about them but not first hand as I dont have them. I believe there are other people on this board that have them and do well with them.


    keep em game

    wildfoot

  8. #8
    Senior Member wildfoot's Avatar
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    Roundhead,

    Hatches are basically whitehackle- brownred cross. They get their bottom (tj, bottom means - endurance and ability to absorb punishment) from the whitehackle and their speed and multiple shuffling from the brownred. The reason there are variations from this original blend is that the subsequent breeders have infused other blood into them.

    tj,

    In tough knife competition pure bred hatches are falling out of favor, but in saying that I would never loose mine, there are good hatches for the knife, you just have to look around.

    They are great for crossing with Asil, Roundhead and my Favorite-Kelso, these crosses are tough to beat in any competition.

    keep em game.

    wildfoot

  9. #9
    Ad Infinitum
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    Just from my personal experience fighting these hatches:

    Ruble --- Supreme power. A little too slow for my taste. Ground fighters. They look similar to the Nesmith Green-legged Hatch. They are multiple-shufflers too.

    McLean - In my opinion, they have better timing than other Hatches. They fight in the air a bit more than the other Hatches. They usually break high into the air on the first fly. A friend of mine does not like them that much because he claims that when they get to the drag, they sometimes aren't as game as other Hatches.

    Nesmith Green-legged Hatch --- multiple-shuffling feet. They can be wounded on their backs and still keep on shuffling. They are ground fighters yet they time really well.

    Leiper -- the only Hatch I have come across that you need to make really angry for them to perform well. Quick. Was not too impressed with their power, especially if compared to the Ruble.

    Col. Givens Hatch -- Quick with power but strict ground fighters. Their multiple-shuffling ability is not as impressive as the Nesmith's or Oakgroves, or even the pure Rubles.

    Oakgrove Yellow-legged Hatch -- great power and quick too. When they hit you, they will follow it up again and again, and you might not get a chance to hit back. Ground fighters, yet good timing.

    Perry Hatch -- Quick and smart. When they get a billhold, they are deadly, fast shufflers. Some can even side-step (believe it or not). When they fight, you would think they had some Kelso blood in them.

    I have fought a couple of pure Blueface and Gilmores, but not enough to make a comment. Of all the Hatches though, I found the Blueface the hardest to get on-point.

    I am sure I am forgetting one or two more Hatches, but these are what I remember right now.

    Hope this helps. Sorry I can't add to this as I try not to fight pure Hatches often especially in the long knife.

    ----------

    As for the history, wildfoot is right. A Kearney Whitehackle hen was crossed to a brown-red colored cock which was shipped from Ireland and that was the first Hatch (that's if I remember it correctly).

    As for the question which Hatch is recommended for the beginner: my personal opinion is the Oakgrove Yellow-legged Hatch.

    Just my opinion based on my experience...

    [This message has been edited by Ad Infinitum (edited 12-12-2002).]

  10. #10
    tj
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    sir,

    Please advise me. I'm planning to breed roundhead, sweater, kelso, and lemon. I'm studying right now here in manila but I will be graduating this march I'm only 19 years old but I can say that I'm into sabong for the fast maybe 14 years because I fought my first rooster when I was only grade one(with my lolo). and sabong becomes a hobby for me and now i'm graduating I can focus to it more. I just want to ask if i should cross hatches blood in this bloodline. Because I found that every crosses today have a little bit of hatches in their blood.

    tj

  11. #11
    Ad Infinitum
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    tj, do you have existing fowl already? Or are you going to start from scratch and acquire the sweater, kelso, lemon and roundhead?

    By the way, try not to focus on the breed names so much. You mentioned that you have heard of the Hatch being crossed a lot to produce battlefowls. That is true but there are so many excellent battlefowl that do not have Hatch in them.

    Sorry...to be continued...


  12. #12
    Senior Member roundhead's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    hey Ad and Wildfoot;

    thanks for the 1-2-3 response!

  13. #13
    tj
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    sir currently I have sweater(trio) I acquired it on 1999 from the late Totoy Dela Cruz if you heared him. My sweater now is around 4 years old na and he is multi winner(one in hackfigths and two in derby) and he will be fighting again this january in two cock derby. But his sons dont fight impressive as he is. We produce ten stags out of this we fought the first two last year and we got two,one(win,lose) record and we just lose one last october. And the remaining cocks will be fougth this christmas. But lemon, kelso and roundhead I don't have it right now. I want to buy this bloodline because I heared that their produces good battle fowls if crosss to sweater and I'm planning to acquired again sweater because my hens died last year because of they called peste daw.

  14. #14
    paningit
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    Question

    Mr. Wildfoot,
    Been trying to ring you so many times but Ive got only answering machine, just wondring why? Ill be back in P.I. by mid jan.
    Hows things?nice to see you on this board again. Ive met a lot of breeders here mainly
    vietnamese they got some awsome fowl but I
    did not like the way they condition fowl.Hows
    the bushfire out there? Hows the birds? Have
    you had any yellow leg Maclean hatch from
    your breeding yet?
    Keep em winning,
    paningit



  15. #15
    CRURO30
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    tj,

    i am also a breeder and i started from scratch. it took me 5 years before i was able to produce winning lines which are from different crosses.

    if you will not mind, i advise you to set first your objective what quality of gamefowls you want to produce. do you want flyer, ground fighter, power, speed or combination? do not be misled of names of fowls e.g. Kelso, Mclean, Sweater, etc.

    when breeding concentrate on the quality of gamefowl that will give you high percentage of winning.

    sabong is all about percentage of winning!!!i think it is the secret to keep you going for a long time.

  16. #16
    Senior Member wildfoot's Avatar
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    Paningit,

    I moved my farm yet again. If you drive to the old farm you will find that I built townhouses there.....I am usually there in the morning till January when they all finish...if you have the time drive up or email me so I can give you my new number.... keep em game.

    wildfoot

  17. #17
    abu jihad
    Guest

    Cool

    Originally posted by tj:
    sir currently I have sweater(trio) I acquired it on 1999 from the late Totoy Dela Cruz if you heared him. My sweater now is around 4 years old na and he is multi winner(one in hackfigths and two in derby) and he will be fighting again this january in two cock derby. But his sons dont fight impressive as he is. We produce ten stags out of this we fought the first two last year and we got two,one(win,lose) record and we just lose one last october. And the remaining cocks will be fougth this christmas. But lemon, kelso and roundhead I don't have it right now. I want to buy this bloodline because I heared that their produces good battle fowls if crosss to sweater and I'm planning to acquired again sweater because my hens died last year because of they called peste daw.
    TJ, not all winners/multi winners are good broodcocks and a lot of people used this method hoping to get good battlefowls. Check the pedigree of your broodfowls before mating. Good luck!

  18. #18
    tj
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    Talking

    thanks for all the replies..

    Sir Cruro30,
    thanks for the advise. Can you give me what bloodlines gave you most winning percentage. I like combination of the characteristics you'd mentioned. I like all the bloodlines I mentioned because I thought it would give me battle fowls that have charateristics such like that.

    abu jihad,
    sir thanks. Can you add more.

    Merry Christmas to all!!

    tj

  19. #19
    gerry buron
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    Hatches

    Lun Gilmore was a cocker and a good friend of Ben Ford, they fought birds with and agianst each other for over 60 years.

    Lun gilmore acquired his birds direct from Sanford Hatch and Mike Kearny.

    When Kearny crossed his Kearny Brown Reds on the Sanford Hatch birds they were awesome as any ever bred til this day.

    Sanford wanted to breed them back to the yellow legged side but Kearny insisted on breeding them one more time to the brown red side and produced them to fight.

    Fight they did and won some derbies against everyone at that time, Kearny wanted to breed a cock of his father's breeding, which was the Kearny whitehackle, to the Sanford Hatch x Kearny brownred fowl.

    From this breeding he had 17 black birds with white specks in them and over 40 brownred looking birds, he then crossed these back on the brown reds - having the kearny white hackle in them and hatch blood they came all dark fowl with green legs.

    Kearny gave Lun Gilmore 6 hens and one dark red cock to breed over them, this was the origin of the gilmore hatch fowl.

    It has Kearny white hackle blood in them and still till this day they will come spangle or dark.

    The next breeding that was the brown red and kearny out and out became the '42 hatch that JD Perry used.

    Same fowl from same people except did not have the kearny white hackle in them, the black legs of the kearny brownred & the yellow legs of the kearny out & out, made them all come green legged.

    Colonel Givens got his fowl from Lun Gilmore in the early 40s and also got some of Kearny's white hackles that was dark red and spangled.....and fought the kearny white hackle x gilmore hatch crosses at Sunset and all over North Alabama.

    Colonel Givens and Jimmy East were the handlers for John Fowler from Huntsville, Alabama.

    When John Fowler died Jimmy kept his hatch birds and Givens kept the white hackles.

    So the Gilmores are 1/4 kearny white hackle 1/4 sanford hatch 1/2 kearny brown red, bred back to the 1/2 sanford hatch 1/2 kearny brown red, and kept that way until he passed on.

    Till this day all Gilmores will throw a spangle every other year or so, depends on how they are bred and where you got them.

    Lun Gilmore was the inspiration of establishing the hatch name in the South.

    Ted Mclean was associated with the hatch name when he was dominating with the hatch fowl.

    Sweater Mcginnis became famous in the mid section of the country, with his blueface hatches (mclean x madigin x leiper).

    JD Perry, Blondy Roland, Harold Brown, Ben Ford, Frank Steel, and Curtis Blackwell made the hatch name in the south east.

    The fowl that Gilmore acquired were the ones that won the Orlando Main for Sanford Hatch, and would have paid any price for those fowl.

    Gilmore was a very sharp-eyed man that could recognize an ace cock, this skill made him a true breeder and respected in the gamecock fraternity.

    Sanford Hatch told Marvin Anderson that Gilmore had the best fowl of the dark breedings anywhere and he would do well with them.

    At that time Gilmore whipped Leiper in a fight that lasted 6 hrs and 10 min, both men strived on deep game fowl, as did all long knife men of the south at the turn of the century until their deaths.

    Long live the green-legged hatches & the men who breeds them!

    (asil x brownred x hatch OR sweater x hatch)

  20. #20
    gerry buron
    Guest

    Hatches

    Lun Gilmore was a cocker and a good friend of Ben Ford, they fought birds with and agianst each other for over 60 years.

    Lun gilmore acquired his birds direct from Sanford Hatch and Mike Kearny.

    When Kearny crossed his Kearny Brown Reds on the Sanford Hatch birds they were awesome as any ever bred til this day.

    Sanford wanted to breed them back to the yellow legged side but Kearny insisted on breeding them one more time to the brown red side and produced them to fight.

    Fight they did and won some derbies against everyone at that time, Kearny wanted to breed a cock of his father's breeding, which was the Kearny whitehackle, to the Sanford Hatch x Kearny brownred fowl.

    From this breeding he had 17 black birds with white specks in them and over 40 brownred looking birds, he then crossed these back on the brown reds - having the kearny white hackle in them and hatch blood they came all dark fowl with green legs.

    Kearny gave Lun Gilmore 6 hens and one dark red cock to breed over them, this was the origin of the gilmore hatch fowl.

    It has Kearny white hackle blood in them and still till this day they will come spangle or dark.

    The next breeding that was the brown red and kearny out and out became the '42 hatch that JD Perry used.

    Same fowl from same people except did not have the kearny white hackle in them, the black legs of the kearny brownred & the yellow legs of the kearny out & out, made them all come green legged.

    Colonel Givens got his fowl from Lun Gilmore in the early 40s and also got some of Kearny's white hackles that was dark red and spangled.....and fought the kearny white hackle x gilmore hatch crosses at Sunset and all over North Alabama.

    Colonel Givens and Jimmy East were the handlers for John Fowler from Huntsville, Alabama.

    When John Fowler died Jimmy kept his hatch birds and Givens kept the white hackles.

    So the Gilmores are 1/4 kearny white hackle 1/4 sanford hatch 1/2 kearny brown red, bred back to the 1/2 sanford hatch 1/2 kearny brown red, and kept that way until he passed on.

    Till this day all Gilmores will throw a spangle every other year or so, depends on how they are bred and where you got them.

    Lun Gilmore was the inspiration of establishing the hatch name in the South.

    Ted Mclean was associated with the hatch name when he was dominating with the hatch fowl.

    Sweater Mcginnis became famous in the mid section of the country, with his blueface hatches (mclean x madigin x leiper).

    JD Perry, Blondy Roland, Harold Brown, Ben Ford, Frank Steel, and Curtis Blackwell made the hatch name in the south east.

    The fowl that Gilmore acquired were the ones that won the Orlando Main for Sanford Hatch, and would have paid any price for those fowl.

    Gilmore was a very sharp-eyed man that could recognize an ace cock, this skill made him a true breeder and respected in the gamecock fraternity.

    Sanford Hatch told Marvin Anderson that Gilmore had the best fowl of the dark breedings anywhere and he would do well with them.

    At that time Gilmore whipped Leiper in a fight that lasted 6 hrs and 10 min, both men strived on deep game fowl, as did all long knife men of the south at the turn of the century until their deaths.

    Long live the green-legged hatches & the men who breeds them!

    (asil x brownred x hatch OR sweater x hatch)

  21. #21
    gerry buron
    Guest

    Double Posting

    Sorry about that, my computer hangs while I am preparing my post.

    I refreshed the page & the post was resent.

  22. #22
    ~Ace~
    Guest
    Very good post Gerry Buron but I have to question the last sentence
    At that time Gilmore whipped Leiper in a fight that lasted 6 hrs and 10 min, both men strived on deep game fowl, as did all long knife men of the south at the turn of the century until their deaths.
    There, from my knowledge were not many folks fighting LK in that era, most were still Short Gaff or Peg Awls. ~Ace~


  23. #23
    gerry buron
    Guest

    Gaffs

    That is correct Ace, I stand corrected, they fought with gaffs.

    It is the biggest reason on the hatch's success during that time, gaffs will test the fowl's gameness to the fullest.

    With the long knife, speed & accurate cutting is paramount.

  24. #24
    gerry buron
    Guest

    Mclean Hatch

    In the early thirties, Sanford Hatch's fowl consisted of four (4) basic bloodlines:

    (1) Kearny Whitehackles and (2) Kearney Brown Reds

    plus (3) Herman Duryea fowl (commonly called Boston Roundheads), which Mike Kearny added when he worked for Mr. Duryea.

    With these bloodlines Sanford Hatch incorporated:

    (4) the green legged Thompson (Jim Thompson) fowl.

    From then on, the strain made up of these four (4) bloodlines are what Ted Mclean call the "straight stuff."

    In those days virtually all the fighting in North East was done in inch and a quarter, heavy, slow heels (gaff), which is not surprising considering the cockers prime requisite was gameness.

    It followed that toughness and power were high priorities and the Hatch Fowl had all these in abundance.

    While they surely did not compile a great winning record, they were admired by many for these attributes.

    Fortunately, Ted McLean kept this set of priorities or the "straight stuff" would have long since gone by the boards.

    For in addition to these attributes, the McLean Hatch are poor cutters, low-headed dumb fighters, that usually take two or three shots before unleashing one of their patented haymakers.

    Obviously as the heels got faster (knife) their ability to win lessened, so they are now useless if fought pure. Their value then, is only as an ingredient to produce battle cocks.

    Ted McLean bought "Gamecock Farm" in Maryland and built one of the best all around chicken farm.

    At least one experimental cross was tried each year and many produced superior battle cocks, but as soon as one quit, all chickens containing that blood, came under the axe.

    An awful lot of chickens were killed and when Mclean retired from the game in 1954 only the "straight stuff" remained.

  25. #25
    gerry buron
    Guest

    Blueface Hatch

    During the late 40s, Ted McLean had two beautifully bred "straight" stags, one of which he wanted to breed.

    They were full brothers, well made, green legged, weighed about four ten, and you really could not have told them apart except one was a roundhead.

    Mclean decided to heel them up and fight them in his pit in the barn.

    The square comb proved to be the better fighter, cutter, and when he blinded the roundhead, Mclean wanted to cut the head off the roundhead, but agreed to give it to his friend instead.

    His friend bred this stag two (2) years, and one day Mclean asked if he won't mind sending him to Lun Gilmore.

    Gilmore wanted a cock and at that time Mclean did not have a really good one to spare.

    His friend shipped the cock and later learned that Gilmore and Pete Frost bred him to a hen that Mclean had previously given to Frost.

    This hen was from a green legged cock, the "straight stuff" out of a Morgan Whitehackle hen from Heinie Mathesius. (As you can see, Mclean never let any "straight stuff" hen to ever got out.)

    Prior to this Mclean had given Frost a green legged cock which became the sire of the Frost "Cherries".

    Frost & Gilmore had also bred this cock to another hen, & sent Mclean a stag from that mating which he called, the "Alligator Cock".

    Sweater McGinnis was involved in their fighting activities at this time, and it was from these three (3) fowls that the Blue Face emerged.

    Sweater called these "Blue Face" fowls the gamest chickens he had ever seen and that he kept the seed stock pure just to make battle crosses.

    Sweater asked Mclean for another cock and Mclean sent him one.

    He told Mclean not to worry, that he didn't let the "straight" ones go but that they all fought under the name of "Blue Face".

    At one time, Sweater's favorites were 1/4 Blue Face Hatch - 1/4 Madigin Grey - 1/2 Leiper Hatch, bred in various combinations.

    Like all of us, he experimented with many crosses and blends in an effort to produce superior battle cocks, but recognized the value of keeping the seed stock pure.

    The McLean Hatch come both green legged and yellow legged, single comb and pea-comb. The hens are wheaton or "dirty" partridge, and the cocks red.

    They vary in shades from dark mahogany to light reds with white under hackles and white in wings and tail. The latter are usually single comb yellow legged, reverting back to the Kearny Whitehackles. Most of the cocks' breasts are flecked with brown and quite a few come with lemon hackles at the shoulders.

    The Blueface Hatch are all green legged with single or pea-combs. Hens are dark wheaton or partridge and cocks run more to the mahogany red. Most have brown feathers in the breast but few come lemon hackled.

  26. #26
    gerry buron
    Guest

    Sweater Mcginnis

    For you folks who never knew Sweater Mcginnis, a brief background sketch might be of interest.

    He was born southwest of Oklahoma City near Chickasha about 1905. For much of his early life, he stayed with his uncle, Dave Lane, a druggist in Oklahoma City.

    Dave Lane was one of the best of the old time chicken fighters. In the early 1920's while Sweater was still a teenager, he handled a main of cocks from Frank Perry and Sap Barrett against the legendary Henry Wortham - and won with his last four cocks to win the main. This was at the old Shell Creek Pit near Sand Springs, Oklahoma.

    Sweater was a professional cocker in every sense of the word. Except for a short hitch in the military service in World War II, he spent his lifetime working with game fowl.

    He was in great demand as a feeder and handler, and he spent considerable time with John Madigin, Walter Kelso, Jack Walton, etc.

    With his conditioning method, he could build stronger thighs on a cock than any other feeder - they would be as hard and big around as the average man's wrist. They were so strong that his cocks frequently broke their own legs.

    As a handler, Sweater never missed a trick, legal or otherwise. It is fitting that he died in the pit with a gamecock in his arm - at the Boxwood Pit in Virginia on 19 December 1959.

    Sweater had hundreds of chickens raised for him each year but until he moved to North Carolina in 1954 to work for Percy Flowers at Pineville Farms, none of them were specifically called the Blueface family.

    That is, no particular combination of bloodlines could be pointed out as Blueface to the exclusion of all others. They were all simply referred to as McGinnis Reds or Greys, depending on the color.

    Sweater never advertised his fowl, didn't like to sell them and almost never did, but he gave most of them away.

    His usual breeding method was to place a cock and six hens on a farm walk where they could reproduce freely. In the fall, Sweater would pick up what stags he wanted and tell the farmer to eat the rest of them.

    Thus, a great deal of Sweater's stock was available to anyone who knew where he walked his fowl. Many so-called Blueface families today are based on fowl obtained from these farm walks and contain not a touch of the McLean hatch usually associated with the name Blueface.

    The bloodlines that Sweater used in various combinations and which appear in some of the modern Blueface lines include the Madigin Texas Rangers, which are primarily the old Joe Wingate Brown Reds crossed with Madigins Grey & Claret.

    When Sweater was in charge of Madigin's brood yards in Houston in the late 1930's, a great many of the cocks and hens were carrying a fourth or more of this Texas Ranger breeding.

    When Madigin died in 1942, Kelso and Japhet inherited his fowl which were all shipped to Kelso's place in Galveston. Sweater set up the various brood yards and Kelso and Japhet alternated in choosing which ones they wanted. But Kelso didn't like the Clarets not to mention the Rangers - so Sweater took what he wanted of those.

    Sometime later, Sweater decided he needed more speed in his fowl and someone sold him a family of Three Spurs from Washington State. These cocks had a normal spur plus a rudimentary spur above and below it. At least one modern family of Blueface show this trait and some of the cocks cannot be heeled properly until these small spurs are clipped off. The black Sumatra Jungle Fowl and their descendants have this odd spur formation.

    Sweater fought a lot of the Sam Bingham fowl - a Marsh Butcher/Claret cross. This is one of the sources for the rare white leg that shows up in some Blueface.

    He also had some Kearney stock he got from up North. A particular favorite of Sweater's was his Jim Thompson Mahoganies, as bred by Bob Lang of Long Island, New York.

    Sweater called these Thompsons his secret weapon and left them in oklahoma when he went to North Carolina.

    He didn't know how the deal with Percy Flowers would work out, and he was hedging his bets by leaving the Thompsons and several other yards of his "seed stock" with friends he trusted.

    He left some of his McLean seed stock with an old Okie friend in Arizona and most of the Thompsons with Billy "The Barber" Atchley of Oklahoma City, who in turn supplied Sweater with some really good Butcher fowl.

    After Sweater died, the brood yards he left at Pineville deteriorated and much of the reason could be a lack of access to these Oklahoma seed stock fowls.

    In addition to these red fowl, Sweater raised a lot of greys - primarily Madigin Regular Greys but also some from Frost and Kelso.

    These were frequently combined with various red fowl, and the resulting offspring were either McGinnis Reds or McGinnis Greys even though they were full brothers but different colors.

    As a final tribute to a real "chickenman" nothing is more appropriate than the words "Spectator" used in describing Sweater's stags at the 1957 Lally Memorial 10-Stag Derby - where he was solo champion 9W-1L.

    "The best the north and the east could produce was lined up against them, and they made a runaway of the show. They were fast, terrific bucklers, hard hitters, good cutters, aggressive finishers.

    Their legs reached out a mile with every stroke, they delivered their blows with a snap, and usually every punch landed where it counted. The only fight they lost was a quick one shot affair to the brain in the first few seconds, which sort of thing can and will happen to everybody who is meeting top grade fowl."

    (written by Spectator, 1957).

    Remember that these stags were the direct descendants of those "damned blue faced chickens" as Sweater called them the first time he saw them, produced by a sickly face, pale headed old hen and a runty little 4:02 cock that had been destined for the chopping block by Ted Mclean.

  27. #27
    Underhack
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    gerry buron has some very good replys to learn about our fowls history. I just wonder what bloodline of Hatches did they cross like below on the brownreds that started the hatch as we know today?
    1) Kearny Whitehackles and (2) Kearney Brown Reds

    plus (3) Herman Duryea fowl (commonly called Boston Roundheads), which Mike Kearny added when he worked for Mr. Duryea.

    With these bloodlines Sanford Hatch incorporated:

    (4) the green legged Thompson (Jim Thompson) fowl.


    When Kearny crossed his Kearny Brown Reds on the Sanford Hatch birds they were awesome as any ever bred til this day.

    Sanford wanted to breed them back to the yellow legged side but Kearny insisted on breeding them one more time to the brown red side and produced them to fight.

    So with them being yellow legged It would seem like maybe boston rh could have been breed into them and is where the peacomb came from? Were the brownreds a Strait comb or Pea comb strain? Or were all hatch back them strait comb?

  28. #28
    Member gentlemancocker's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    :blush:

  29. #29
    bli7z
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    *

    ive actually have the same blessing...
    the ruble line is deadly..
    can get alot of multiple winenrs from teh right bloodline..
    i also am having a great time with my pops with the greenleg ruble..
    mines not much green leg its like a yellow green..
    weve crossed it with an albany and cuts like asmurai..
    ppl want to pay more bread then wonder lol
    were contemplating weither to sell or jus keep on taking moeny at derbies..
    ruble is one of are most solid fighters..
    boston roundheads in production..
    and producing a stunnin golden grey line

  30. #30
    Member myf2223's Avatar
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    nice tread...keep them coming. :rbounce:

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