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Thread: maintaining or creating a strain?

  
  1. #31
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Mother Nature isn't in the business of producing animals that fight to the death, there are a few . but not many. Mother Nature is in the business of survival..biggest. toughest, the smartest...on that day or breeding season, at most short displays of aggression and bluff, leaving the younger/lesser to challenge later at their time, sometimes it's just the most colorful one...Many old timers will tell of walks where the game ones killed each other off or wounded each other beyond recovery.and old Sancho hiding in the weeds ends up being the breeder, there goes the Gameness over the years.
    Last edited by Sul Ross; March 28th, 2017 at 10:45 AM.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I can honestly say , I haven't seen many surprises breeding fowl , horses or dogs ... i have been lied to or cut corners and gotten junk but when the dust settled and truth came out I actually got just what I was supposed to get.

    When I have thoroughly test stock before I bred it , they also produce just what they should.

    When I cheat and get older stock that has already produced winners , I have also always gotten winners . But , if you are asking if a brother to the proven sire from a good family will produce average fowl .. yes , yes , yes . Don't walk past the sire of the winners and breed ti his brother and that problem will be solved.
    Yup full brothers will produce different even to the same hen. You might notice in a few years thet the SAME pair will produce lower quality fowl.
    You mention up one post smart and tuff fowl. Smart, tuff, athletic & fast fowl alone wont win fights. Theres more too it than just that. I wish it was only that simple.

  4. #33
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    You ever won a derby without pitting birds that survived the fight ? or weren't the toughest or smartest ?
    I think I have seen a few that were plain lucky, and I've been on the receiving end of bad luck also, you must admit there is a factor of luck in our game and at other times you just get out-roostered. Then there is the luck of the draw. One tries to field the best show one can, but in good competition others are fielding their best also. I don't care who one thinks they are they can be defeated. Furthermore, if you are winning them all the pool you are playing in isn't that deep. Heredity is only half the equation, environment is the other. I'll ask you a question have you ever lost a fight when you were sure you had the better bird? I have noticed over the years that the brash ones that get hot can't handle it when they are down. Most don't learn from a loss, but the good ones do.The true cocker knows there will be highs and lows, and has the mental stability to weather it and usually it shows in their fowl also. Please don't take this personally I'm talking in general terms.
    Last edited by Sul Ross; March 29th, 2017 at 11:09 AM.

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  6. #34
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    The above statement is one reason I would prefer Tournments over Derbies, each entry has to meet every other entry once. They were the real test, Derbies are for gamblers. Welsh Mains are the true test of great individual cocks, though luck plays a part in them also. If Mother Nature had her way our fowl would still just be Jungle fowl.
    Last edited by Sul Ross; March 29th, 2017 at 11:26 AM.

  7. #35
    Senior Member Dase520's Avatar
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    I dnt know but let me try this i think maintaining a straign is creating a straing just because eventually if you dnt want smaller birds and or retards you will have too add new blood my 2 cents dnt know if im RIGHT anyway in order to maintain a line you like anf traits it eventually becomes your line i dnt know if im explaining my self right or if im RIGHT lol any way jmhop

  8. #36
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I agree , it's our selection .. but Mother Nature makes the rules . If we follow the pattern of the master breeder then we will have success ... she has gives us the template .

    Mother Nature never breeds anything that isn't proven ... hasn't survived hardships , is past it's prime ... she is hard on her creatures and genetic flaws are exposed ... she breeds pure , but doesn't breed too tight ... the offspring of the alpha and beta are driven out to find new mates if they are strong enough .... new lions eat the cubs of the lions they beat to get the females ,etc ...
    Nature has her own methods of selection. In chickens, nature does not only breed for the bravest and the strongest but also the wisest and prudent individuals. Brute strength and bravery or what we call gameness in gamefowls isn't the only basis of survival it can also be it's demise in the natural order of things. So the wisest and most prudent animal that uses it's strength, and agility to run away from conflicts can also survive. If you leave nature to select for you, yes you will have more uniform and purebreed chickens just like the wild chickens, they will be more resistant and immune to bacteria and viruses that are present in their habitat but will be weak against foreign bacteria and viruses, and they will develop the proper body conformation most suitable for their habitat. Natural selection and gamefowl breeding have different goals. Nature's goal is survival in the wild, gamefowl breeding's goal is basically gameness but added with speed, agility, etc.(in relation to the type of knife you compete) that is also necessary for survival in the wild. Based on what you said, I think you want to fight jungle fowls. Those are the chickens selected by nature. There are people who bred them to gamefowls but they are naturally skittish, high strung, and will quit and run. Their fight or flight response is to flee and run away. Yes they do fight like all territorial animals but usually only takes few buckles and one of them quit and run away without any serious injury. Some territorial birds don't even resort to confrontation, they rely on their feather quality, or mating calls, or a form of dance to determine the alpha. Almost all non-predatory animals in nature avoid serious confrontations within their species that will injure or weaken them and make them prone to predators. In nature only pack animals and some solitary mammals will fight to the death. I also observed in other animals to breed without human intervention, they usually revert to their natural wild nature. I bred some fish before and observed guppies, bettas and other livebearers, kois and others that revert back to their natural color in the wild. Guppies, livebearers and bettas vary in color and tail type by decades of selective breeding to purify or set the color or tail type as a strain but I once left guppies and bettas in the pond and they reverted back to their wild color after just a year. Yes, we also aim to breed the strongest, fastest and most agile, like nature does but we add or enhance traits necessary for the purpose and our purpose is mainly to fight unless you are into conformation shows. Like pitbulls, they were also originally bred to fight like gamefowls. In nature, wolves establish their dominance through confrontation by biting the neck. Notice in dogs that will respond and submit if you pinch and shake the neck(just the skin). But in pitbulls, they have thick necks that are more tolerant to pain some even say they lack nerve receptors and don't feel any. You can even hold a fully grown pitbull(fighting strain) up in the air by just grabbing the skin at the neck without any reaction unlike other breeds that will squeal in pain. Those are just examples of the difference between natural selection and selective breeding/animal husbandry.

  9. #37
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I didn't say turn them loose for Mother Nature to breed , we make the breedings .. she makes the rules . She culls hard ... she uses weather , starvation and the odds against them from birth . Anything with weak genetics or spirit is culled and only when they are mature and have proven themselves do they get the chance to fight and prove themselves the best and breed .

    To win and survive to breed in cocking doesn't mean running off to me ... Mother Nature follows a few basic rules and it works for bugs , fish , birds and mammals ... it works for roosters too .
    Yes, there are things that nature is better. I observed that hen hatched and raised chickens mature earlier than artificially incubated. Maybe there are things that the mother hen teaches to her offsprings. If you use the natural way of culling like what you said weather and starvation and other odds against them from birth, you can't raise healthy chickens. Some might survive but they won't be suitable to be fought or bred. Remember a rooster that went through disease even at a young age especially respiratory disease but survived will never be as good as a rooster that never went through any disease. Even roosters that went through starvation will be inferior to roosters that was never starved, even if he's genetically superior. Remember you are not the only one raising genetically superior gamefowls, and if you pit both genetically superior roosters but one went through disease and starvation, who do you think will win or have the advantage? Health is a big factor in raising gamefowls. If you say you meant breeding not fighting, well there are several diseases that is passed from hen to egg so chicks will carry those diseases. That is why most breeders big and small incubate instead of hen hatching so chicks will hatch at a time and they can be vaccinated. Yes, I hen hatched for years but now I do both hen hatch and artificial incubation. Our goal is to maximize the genetic potential of our gamefowls and health, feeding, supplementation, ranging, etc. is a big factor.

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  11. #38
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Not all stress is bad stress .... only hard times can make hard men and that is the same for everything. A good farm walk is the best thing for raising fowl and conditioning cocks ... they are stressed with weather , hunting for food and survival .

    Pen raised and pampered means everything gets to grow up fat and happy , but fewer will make it home from the show like that ... it's our job to mimick how MOther Nature breeds and raises things like Grizzly Bear , Bald Eagles and all those awesome stuff .... trying to stay on par with that kind of genetic selection and combination of things that cull the weak and make the strong even stronger is not easy .... but it should be the goal of serious breeders and feeders.
    Please read my entire post. I included ranging. That is one of the natural stimuli I can mimic to raise them healthy. I't is at the end of the post. Haven't you seen it? Where are your glasses?

  12. #39
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Not all stress is bad stress .... only hard times can make hard men and that is the same for everything. A good farm walk is the best thing for raising fowl and conditioning cocks ... they are stressed with weather , hunting for food and survival .

    Pen raised and pampered means everything gets to grow up fat and happy , but fewer will make it home from the show like that ... it's our job to mimick how MOther Nature breeds and raises things like Grizzly Bear , Bald Eagles and all those awesome stuff .... trying to stay on par with that kind of genetic selection and combination of things that cull the weak and make the strong even stronger is not easy .... but it should be the goal of serious breeders and feeders.
    All walks are not created equal, last I looked fowl are prey animals, you seem to think they are predators, only a fool would raise their fowl in conditions that would harm their potential and fools do not last long in this game unless they have more money than sense, but what does all this have to do with the original question of this post? I think we have strayed away from the original question and I for one would like to return to the question or start another thread, maybe on animal totums. Haha I haven't been on here long maybe I missed the point of posting threads.
    Last edited by Sul Ross; April 1st, 2017 at 08:49 AM.

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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I said " good " walks ... have you used farm walks before ? Breeding is more about testing , culling and health than the method you use .... folks that don't think so or think that part isn't related usually are too old to compete or aren't good at it .... which is fine , but leading others astray isn't .
    Just what is my method? i agree with some of the conclusions you have come up with only they are not original as you might think. There are keys words that reveal a man's inner mind your's is a whole book..You might want to educate yourself on sociopaths, there are many tells like Ummmmmmmmmm...........I did not come on here to be engaged in arguments or belittle anyone, or be belittled by anyone. it seems you have a burr under your saddle good night sir..Haha
    Last edited by Sul Ross; April 1st, 2017 at 09:28 AM.

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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    I didn't say anything about disease earlier , but I glimpsed you talking about disease alot in your reply so I didn't really read it ... too much of a huge run-on sentence looking blob when you keep comparing following the best method for breeding to letting gamefowl run loose and turn cold ... I'm just posting for others with more sense , not you.
    Let's agree to disagree. I apologize if I tried to elaborate to be able to get through your thick skull. You repeatedly mentioned "NATURAL METHOD" in your earlier posts. So let me be blunt and straight no sugarcoating. There is no such thing as natural method! We may simulate natural stimuli, natural habitat, etc. but we can say it's just half natural but artificial as a whole. That's the entire point of the science called animal husbandry. If you don't know what it means, it's the selective breeding and RAISING of farm animals to enhance desirable traits for our intended purpose. There is nothing natural in things with human intervention.

    Anyways we strayed off from the topic. Which is more interesting, maintaining or creating a strain? Creating a strain is more interesting for me. But both is necessary.
    Last edited by HMPK; April 1st, 2017 at 11:33 AM.

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  17. #42
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Maintaining a strain of gamefowl breeds is not logical in following the methods used. We are just recreating them every time.

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    Senior Member CA whitetoppy06's Avatar
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Bump...

    seems one post actually touched on this subject to any value of worth.. jmo

  20. #44
    Senior Member Mossy Dell's Avatar
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Most don't do it because it takes about 3 trios to start to set up lines that are not too close. If you get a trio and it proves, get more. Not all will pan out. But the more fowl you get, the more chance of starting with more than one prepotent bird. But you can see the pen space and raising this takes every year. Most are not breeders for various reasons. We hold breeders up rightly. It's hard to find a real breeder whose results you admire.

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  22. #45
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    I bred an ace cock to over a dozen hens. Then narrowed it down to Two hens That produced the best offspring. I chose a proven cock to breed over the pullets out of the original Ace cock and the two best producing hens. I bred the offspring of that to their aunts and uncles only breeding to the aunts and uncle of the same hen. now I'm breeding the great grandbabies from each producing hen to each other. Phew. lol. It has done me well but I didn't set out to do that way. I adjusted and looked for patterns I could go with out of what were proving themselves at the shows. Anyways just sharing.

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  24. #46
    Senior Member Mossy Dell's Avatar
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayn/auzzi View Post
    I bred an ace cock to over a dozen hens. Then narrowed it down to Two hens That produced the best offspring. I chose a proven cock to breed over the pullets out of the original Ace cock and the two best producing hens. I bred the offspring of that to their aunts and uncles only breeding to the aunts and uncle of the same hen. now I'm breeding the great grandbabies from each producing hen to each other. Phew. lol. It has done me well but I didn't set out to do that way. I adjusted and looked for patterns I could go with out of what were proving themselves at the shows. Anyways just sharing.
    Sounds like a good way to make your own strain. I thought of doing that once using one great individual but breeding to at least a couple different birds from outside a year. Keep the winners, breed them to each other, etc.

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  26. #47
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayn/auzzi View Post
    I bred an ace cock to over a dozen hens. Then narrowed it down to Two hens That produced the best offspring. I chose a proven cock to breed over the pullets out of the original Ace cock and the two best producing hens. I bred the offspring of that to their aunts and uncles only breeding to the aunts and uncle of the same hen. now I'm breeding the great grandbabies from each producing hen to each other. Phew. lol. It has done me well but I didn't set out to do that way. I adjusted and looked for patterns I could go with out of what were proving themselves at the shows. Anyways just sharing.
    Excellent. What took you a minute to type is many many years of a process and yes a whewwwww fits it well.
    Best wishes
    SF

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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
    Excellent. What took you a minute to type is many many years of a process and yes a whewwwww fits it well.
    Best wishes
    SF
    lol. Thanks. I feel like like I been chasing a rainbow. Or Hunting down a unicorn.

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  29. #49
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayn/auzzi View Post
    lol. Thanks. I feel like like I been chasing a rainbow. Or Hunting down a unicorn.
    I hear you H/A Lol, we all want good ones. 2 ways of doing that, either by constantly procuring or by working on what you have and creating your strain or blend. One may hit a good cross and start the embarkation on setting it up for on down the line with the parents and relatives intact of that good cross. Its a challenge of the highest order but fun to do, even better when its keeps working with each season that passes by huh.
    Even though the process to have a yard of good fowl and keep it that way will vary among those in the sport, keep at it because youve gotten well past the prelim stages where most of these breeding ventures tend to fizzle out.
    Best wishes
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; February 18th, 2020 at 06:40 PM.

  30. #50
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    Breeding a strain is about short term decisions that dictate stuff years later ....take care of today , tomorrow will come .. or not , lol . Point is ... Mongoose touched on how a cock can produce different on two sisters . Yup , and I always keep the hen that holds her own in the pedigree and never the hen that threw good from a cock , but he dominated her . Folks preach prepotent cocks ,etc but they can be a curse too because eventually the hen side is gonna surface and that hen better have been better than what you saw .... surrogate hens that were just incubators for the prepotent cock will get you ... or ruin you even .

    Folks talk about 75% from the hen , or what takes after what .... good fowl and the kind of nicks that drive a farm gotta both be in there doing their part for crosses and for pure fowl . If you can knuckle down on that ... you will usually always have good fowl around and before long years will have passed while you were showing and have fun penning stags and folks will call you a breeder.

  31. #51
    Senior Member springwater's Avatar
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    I will throw my 2 cents in. I think it would be important to have the skill to maintain a family for many years before you even think about developing your own family. Developing your own family and getting them to come consistent not only in looks but even more importantly in ability is very difficult. I also believe breeding a family of straight fowl is a numbers game. The more numbers of straight broodfowl you have to choose from, the better your chances of keeping them good or even improving them over several generations. I believe it would be impossible to keep 4 or 5 straight bred families coming good over a long period of time unless you are raising several hundred roosters a year. Not only do you have to raise enough of the straight ones in each family, then you would need 3 or 4 sub lines within each family, then after all of those you still have your crosses to raise. I have known people that raise maybe 40 roosters a year but have 8 different bloodlines they are trying to keep going and it just doesn't work. My dad got the kelso blood I have now back in the early 90's. Started out with only a pair. Close to 30 years later they are still coming just as good and in some ways maybe even a little improved than when we first got them. The only way that has been possible is we have always raised a large number of the straight ones to choose from.

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  33. #52
    Senior Member Birdderfly's Avatar
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    I try to keep lots of brood fowl use some to maintain if I like them and use some to try to improve what I already like but never abandon your good fowl in search of the next best thing .majority maintain minority improvement
    Last edited by Birdderfly; February 18th, 2020 at 10:22 PM.

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  35. #53
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    Re: maintaining or creating a strain?

    ratio and proportion is not the. only way in maintaining the the fighting breed. we are not cooking.

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