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Thread: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

  
  1. #31
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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    What would y'all have done? I went to a derby, one of the guys that I met said his cocks were sick. I didn't think much of it as I figured he was making an excuse before we pitted. Well my cock just eat his up. Come home tied em all out. Three days later this cocks head was swollen a bit and he was rattling. I give him 1/2cc Tylan for three days and he was fine. Well that wasn't the end of it. Three days later I had 7-8 with the same symptoms. I dr.ed them the same and they responded the same. Well 3 days later ever bird on my place was sick. Except for the ones I'd doctored. So I mixed water soluble Tylan in some water and mixed it in my feed. I fed this for 4 feedings. I only had one that didn't respond and still was a little sick. I killed it. Well that's been a while back and my fowl have all been healthy for years. Do any of you think it would have been the best thing just to kill all my fowl. About 250 or more. That would have ended the DMM thread way before it ever got started. Just wondering y'all's thoughts on that. I know in my heart I did the right thing.

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  3. #32
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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    LaBlue I would have culled the first 9 then doctored the rest.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    What would y'all have done? I went to a derby, one of the guys that I met said his cocks were sick. I didn't think much of it as I figured he was making an excuse before we pitted. Well my cock just eat his up. Come home tied em all out. Three days later this cocks head was swollen a bit and he was rattling. I give him 1/2cc Tylan for three days and he was fine. Well that wasn't the end of it. Three days later I had 7-8 with the same symptoms. I dr.ed them the same and they responded the same. Well 3 days later ever bird on my place was sick. Except for the ones I'd doctored. So I mixed water soluble Tylan in some water and mixed it in my feed. I fed this for 4 feedings. I only had one that didn't respond and still was a little sick. I killed it. Well that's been a while back and my fowl have all been healthy for years. Do any of you think it would have been the best thing just to kill all my fowl. About 250 or more. That would have ended the DMM thread way before it ever got started. Just wondering y'all's thoughts on that. I know in my heart I did the right thing.
    For where you were at. I think u did the right thing. What does that mean? Well, if you've been medicating for years. This problem you had was "caused by it", so you really had no other choice.
    If you Didn't use antibiotics, PERHAPS this wouldn't of been a problem Mr Del.
    I notice many people seem to medicate prior to the keep cause there experience teaches them that there fowl get sick in the keep. My opinion is they get sick cause people "stress them out". Don't stress them and they won't get sick. I know. I sound like Quapaw lol.
    I don't mean to sound harsh. It's just the way I talk on the internet. Being cordial is a lot more writing and I'm a bit lazy.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; May 19th, 2017 at 10:45 PM.

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  6. #34
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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Del I think you need to ask someone that has won COTY 10 times...

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Well said.....................
    What would be good is if someone would vaccinate 100 stags from birth like normally and 100 that hasn't had any vaccination (all from the same breed) and fight them into each other to get an idea if vaccination hurts or helps them

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF View Post
    Del I think you need to ask someone that has won COTY 10 times...
    I knew someone would bring this up. Unfortunately some fowl do better with certain keeps. Ill concede that if I had Mr Del's birds id totally RUIN them. Even though I wouldn't stress them out. Thats not the discussion.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Damn Del you've been doing it wrong all these years. I hope that I can do it just as wrong. Then again I don't know if I could stand getting in the money half the time. My head couldn't stand the swelling without medications Mongoose would cull me. LOL.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brettjern View Post
    What would be good is if someone would vaccinate 100 stags from birth like normally and 100 that hasn't had any vaccination (all from the same breed) and fight them into each other to get an idea if vaccination hurts or helps them
    Were talking immunity. Which one would PASS there resistance the vaccinated ones or the ones with NO vaccination?
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; May 19th, 2017 at 11:36 PM.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brettjern View Post
    What would be good is if someone would vaccinate 100 stags from birth like normally and 100 that hasn't had any vaccination (all from the same breed) and fight them into each other to get an idea if vaccination hurts or helps them
    Too answer your question it should be close to equal.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Ahh man. Im trying to make this simple but everyone thinks its bull$hit. Ill give you a scenario that is a fact. Take a look around and READ about all these "superbugs" that are KILLING people every fkn day.
    There are bacteria and fungi we have NO medications for NOW. You get it. You die. They live in every hospital in the USA. There discovering new ones every year. Take a gander how they came to existence? There from DOCTORS over prescribing antibiotics! NOT chicken men, YET!
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; May 19th, 2017 at 11:29 PM.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Were talking immunity. Which one would PASS there resistance the vaccinated ones or the ones with NO vacation?
    Oh ok well this is easy, neither will throw chicks that are immune to most of your diseases. U know for sure that the parents that are treated with vaccinations cannot pass on their immunity to their children because they themselves are not immune to the disease. The parents that are immune to the diseases won't throw this either because immunity to most if not all diseases are from exposure not genetically passed on. The best question to me is which diseases if any can our chickens become immune to? I say none because our immune system is far beyond theirs and I never take medication for colds or allergies but every year I get both. Great topic though

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brettjern View Post
    Oh ok well this is easy, neither will throw chicks that are immune to most of your diseases. U know for sure that the parents that are treated with vaccinations cannot pass on their immunity to their children because they themselves are not immune to the disease. The parents that are immune to the diseases won't throw this either because immunity to most if not all diseases are from exposure not genetically passed on. The best question to me is which diseases if any can our chickens become immune to? I say none because our immune system is far beyond theirs and I never take medication for colds or allergies but every year I get both. Great topic though
    Natural immunity IS passed onto offspring. Is it 100%? Nothing is, But vaccinated parents DONT pass what theyve been vaccinated for to there chicks. Thats why your kids get the same shots you got as a kid.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brettjern View Post
    Oh ok well this is easy, neither will throw chicks that are immune to most of your diseases. U know for sure that the parents that are treated with vaccinations cannot pass on their immunity to their children because they themselves are not immune to the disease. The parents that are immune to the diseases won't throw this either because immunity to most if not all diseases are from exposure not genetically passed on. The best question to me is which diseases if any can our chickens become immune to? I say none because our immune system is far beyond theirs and I never take medication for colds or allergies but every year I get both. Great topic though
    Where do you think your immune system came from? An ostrich?
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; May 19th, 2017 at 11:46 PM.

  19. #44
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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Pox is very active in our area. An old breeder once told me to never vaccinate for
    it cause if you ever forget to vaccinate, your fcked. This is experience talking not science. There are things science changes it mind on every year.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; May 19th, 2017 at 11:57 PM.

  20. #45
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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Where do you think your immune system came from? An ostrich?
    From my parents but your assuming I will be immune to stuff they r but the only reason they r immune is because they were exposed and their immune system created antibodies to fight off those diseases. Just by knowing this u should have your answer, most aren't born immune to anything but by being exposed their immune system creates antibodies to fight stuff off. If my dad and mom both get bit by rattlesnakes and get treated eventually they will become immune to the rattlesnakes venom, will this be passed on to me??? No but I can do just like they did and get bit enough and get antibodies put in me until I become immune. Same principle with most of your diseases, u will only become immune by being exposed. U should know this just by looking at history, how long have antibiotics been around? How long have people been around? Antibiotics have been here for at most 150+ years but people have been here much longer. Why didn't people pass on the immunity to the common cold or anything close to that, after all neither of the parents were being treated 6,000+ years ago so they should pass on their immunity but they didn't because immunity isnt inherited is something that comes with exposure.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brettjern View Post
    From my parents but your assuming I will be immune to stuff they r but the only reason they r immune is because they were exposed and their immune system created antibodies to fight off those diseases. Just by knowing this u should have your answer, most aren't born immune to anything but by being exposed their immune system creates antibodies to fight stuff off. If my dad and mom both get bit by rattlesnakes and get treated eventually they will become immune to the rattlesnakes venom, will this be passed on to me??? No but I can do just like they did and get bit enough and get antibodies put in me until I become immune. Same principle with most of your diseases, u will only become immune by being exposed. U should know this just by looking at history, how long have antibiotics been around? How long have people been around? Antibiotics have been here for at most 150+ years but people have been here much longer. Why didn't people pass on the immunity to the common cold or anything close to that, after all neither of the parents were being treated 6,000+ years ago so they should pass on their immunity but they didn't because immunity isnt inherited is something that comes with exposure.
    Common cold MUTATES every year. Thats why you catch it every year. As far as your other question its answered in my previous post.
    Remeber they use to say only women could be infertile and that drug using men Couldnt affect there offspring. $hit changes every year.
    Dont believe everything u read. Personal experiences as well as other men's wisdom in the chicken game. Is of value.

    Also GENETICIST say its impossible to get a pea comb from 2 straight comb chickens. Mike you there?
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; May 20th, 2017 at 12:09 AM.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Common cold MUTATES every year. Thats why you catch it every year. As far as your other question its answered in my previous post.
    Remeber they use to say only women could be infertile and that drug using men Couldnt affect there offspring. $hit changes every year.
    Dont believe everything u read. Personal experiences as well as other men's wisdom in the chicken game. Is of value.
    My point exactly, these diseases are constantly changing so becoming immune to them seems impossible.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brettjern View Post
    My point exactly, these diseases are constantly changing so becoming immune to them seems impossible.
    I dont want to get too complicated but do you know the 5 entities that attack foreign invaders in our body?
    They all approach invaders differently. It doesnt matter to some if theyve mutated or not.
    We all may have the same human immune system but we dont have exactly the same abilities.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; May 20th, 2017 at 12:15 AM.

  24. #49
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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    I dont want to get too complicated but do you know the 5 entities that attack foreign invaders in our body?
    They all approach invaders differently. It doesnt matter to some if theyve mutated or not.
    We all may have the same human immune system but we dont have exactly the same abilities.
    I'm not familiar with how our body defends off stuff or how foreign invaders attack us. My question is if the diseases our roosters are getting change how can they ever become immune? We know their diseases are changing just like ours.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    I agree with LaBlue and would have done the same thing. He treated and look at his gamefowl now. Some may have as nice fowl as he but probably non any better. He has sold birds all over and have yet to see anyone post they received sick fowl. The answer is you are the one that own them so are they worth it to you? To me he made the right decision. My opinion only. The big reason for resistance to disease may be over medicating but a lot is people not giving the correct dosage for the correct length of time.
    Last edited by catfish1947; May 20th, 2017 at 12:32 AM.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brettjern View Post
    I'm not familiar with how our body defends off stuff or how foreign invaders attack us. My question is if the diseases our roosters are getting change how can they ever become immune? We know their diseases are changing just like ours.
    Good question. My understanding is that not all change. Some do.
    Simply put your immune system has components that are smart & have soldiers (different kind of soldiers) ie-airforce, marines, navy. Without the smart ones all the rest mean nothing. How it all works is up for
    discuss but my point comes from experience.

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  28. #52
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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Good question. My understanding is that not all change. Some do.
    Simply put your immune system has components that are smart & have soldiers (different kind of soldiers) ie-airforce, marines, navy. Without the smart ones all the rest mean nothing. How it all works is up for
    discuss but my point comes from experience.
    I tell u what I would love to know but idk how i could ever find out. Does it hurt a rooster more physically to get sick and build antibodies or does it hurt him more physically to get antibiotics?

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Good thread Mongoose. I guess I half agree with you. I can see trying to build immunity through your pure birds. But what of the battle crosses? I see no reason why not to vaccinate these, as you want them growing up as healthy as possible and are not likely gonna be part of a breeding program, so no need to worry about them passing anything off

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry F View Post
    Good thread Mongoose. I guess I half agree with you. I can see trying to build immunity through your pure birds. But what of the battle crosses? I see no reason why not to vaccinate these, as you want them growing up as healthy as possible and are not likely gonna be part of a breeding program, so no need to worry about them passing anything off
    Yea, from the point of view of brood fowl it's real important to let only the naturally healthy ones breed on.
    Crosses I get your point but I know you won't probably get this but in treating them you are CREATING much stronger bacteria on your place OR your treating with antibiotics when it's really a FUNGAL infection, which STRENGTHENS the fungus to take over the body completely. Same principle if you have parasites and your treating with antibiotics. It makes things much worse. Like I said DOCTORS have really fcked it up for humans and there's living proof all around us with superbugs. You think chickenmen are smarter?

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brettjern View Post
    I tell u what I would love to know but idk how i could ever find out. Does it hurt a rooster more physically to get sick and build antibodies or does it hurt him more physically to get antibiotics?
    Heres a much more important question. How do you know your giving the right medication? And do you understand how you make things far worse for the chicken if your giving the wrong stuff AND way worse on your WHOLE farm wether you are or not. You are damned either way. Right med or not.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; May 20th, 2017 at 04:06 AM.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Speaking of using antibiotics in the keep. I know that your keep method is solid and produces great results but if there was a way to do it without giving antibiotics. Wouldn't you want to try? I know there are people out there who do it clean. Let's here from them.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brettjern View Post
    I tell u what I would love to know but idk how i could ever find out. Does it hurt a rooster more physically to get sick and build antibodies or does it hurt him more physically to get antibiotics?
    u don't go to the doctor and ask for medication every time you get sick do you?

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Yea, from the point of view of brood fowl it's real important to let only the naturally healthy ones breed on.
    Crosses I get your point but I know you won't probably get this but in treating them you are CREATING much stronger bacteria on your place OR your treating with antibiotics when it's really a FUNGAL infection, which STRENGTHENS the fungus to take over the body completely. Same principle if you have parasites and your treating with antibiotics. It makes things much worse. Like I said DOCTORS have really fcked it up for humans and there's living proof all around us with superbugs. You think chickenmen are smarter?
    I said vaccinate. I agree, once one gets sick, cull.
    It's the same principal for the bacteria as your chickens. When you give antibiotics you are killing 99.9% of the bacteria. As that surviving bacteria reproduces, they are building a "natural" immunity to that particular antibiotic.
    But you can't discard using it all together. What of birds that get injured? Whether it be in combat or a fight thru the wire fence. You have to give it for injuries or they'll get infection and die.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Speaking of using antibiotics in the keep. I know that your keep method is solid and produces great results but if there was a way to do it without giving antibiotics. Wouldn't you want to try? I know there are people out there who do it clean. Let's here from them.
    I never gave antibiotics for the keep, of course I didn't win as much as some but I feel like I was holding my own in my circles, and stepped in bigger circles a few times n was fairly successful (maybe dumb luck). And I don't believe sick birds limited me, I mighta been dangerous if I knew what I was doing or if I'd had someone to show me the way. This probably ain't the best prop for your argument but if they can't take the work of the keep, throw em out n if they can't again later, get em off the place.

    Wayside Gamefarm UGBA, ALGBA, and MSGBA Member
    Last edited by Nauvoo; May 20th, 2017 at 04:52 AM.

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    Re: Natural immunity Vs. medications/vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Nauvoo View Post
    I never gave antibiotics for the keep, of course I didn't win as much as some but I feel like I was holding my own in my circles, and stepped in bigger circles a few times n was fairly successful (maybe dumb luck). And I don't believe sick birds limited me, I mighta been dangerous if I knew what I was doing or if I'd had someone to show me the way. This probably ain't the best prop for your argument but if they can't take the work of the keep, throw em out n if they can't again later, get em off the place.
    Wayside Gamefarm UGBA, ALGBA, and MSGBA Member
    Off subject, sorry mongoose. That's a pretty grey Nauvoo. What is he?

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