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Thread: Good feeder or good heeler.

  
  1. #1
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    Good feeder or good heeler.

    Does a good feeder make a good heeler or is it the other way around. Ive heard people say that guy always has them cutting talking about the heeler. When in reality the feeder was the one that had them right.

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    Senior Member Nauvoo's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    I’ll take a good feeder over heeler any day. If he’s got em right, and they got any ability, if it’s close it’s gonna do its thing.

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Both have to do there part..... but if the feeder doesn't have them looking good like navoo said... there's no point on even going just be throwing your money to the wolfs..... good thread

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    EVERYOE wants to take credit for the breeder.
    70-80% is the breeder. 5% is feeding and, I’m being VERY generous, 5% is tying. You either know how to tie your shoes or you don’t.

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by albanyman View Post
    Does a good feeder make a good heeler or is it the other way around. Ive heard people say that guy always has them cutting talking about the heeler. When in reality the feeder was the one that had them right.
    They were talking about the feeder,i have heard them say that for the last 50 years or more.

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    EVERYOE wants to take credit for the breeder.
    70-80% is the breeder. 5% is feeding and, I’m being VERY generous, 5% is tying. You either know how to tie your shoes or you don’t.
    That's a cold hard fact . You just cant feed natural ability into a rooster no matter how good a feeder you are. You might help him be all he can be but he will never be above his breeding. Just like a lot of folk seem to think they are above their raising. I will say that it takes a lot longer to become a good consistent feeder than it does a consistent heeler by far . Even longer to become a consistent breeder . But each one of these things are of vital importance of you intend to show consistently . Good post Mongoose.

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    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Breeder gets more credit in the brush leagues where that stands out and you are close to home . You start traveling and meeting tougher then the pointing and heeling and handling are al just as important .. You can the majority some of the time on brood pen alone but if you want to win derbies very often then the smallest decisions and adjustments make or break you

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    You got a point there it does take a good breeder. I have also seen where a breeder cant seem to get over the top when he shows his fowl. But they let a good feeder borrow a few and they start winning derby after derby.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skincarver View Post
    That's a cold hard fact . You just cant feed natural ability into a rooster no matter how good a feeder you are. You might help him be all he can be but he will never be above his breeding. Just like a lot of folk seem to think they are above their raising. I will say that it takes a lot longer to become a good consistent feeder than it does a consistent heeler by far . Even longer to become a consistent breeder . But each one of these things are of vital importance of you intend to show consistently . Good post Mongoose.
    I like that point. “A bird will never perform above his breeding”.
    You either have talent or you don’t. You can never make a Mayweather perform much better than he is BUT you sure as hell can screw him up. When I have a very talented bird that a 3 time winner. All I’m trying to do is keep him happy but some of us think we can make him “better”.
    Its funny. When I have a very good bird whose never been showed. I tend to think I can make him better. I don’t think that way of a 3 time ace.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; March 31st, 2018 at 10:24 PM.

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    You need everything to be consistently successful but at higher levels, where almost everyone has quality roosters, it is the feeder that makes the difference. Anyone can put a rooster with a hen that can produce winners just as many people can put up a show and win, even if they do not know what the hell they are doing. What separates real breeders and feeders is dealing with and adapting to all the different variables and producing and winning consistently.

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Mongoose, I agree with you to an extent but the more you learn about a particular strain or individual the more you can get out of them, even an ace. Being a good feeder is more reading and know your fowl and what to do with and to them. Timing is everything. No situation is exactly the same and we must adapt to give them the opportunity to perform at their best.

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    A good feeder is priceless but good fowl is absolute. I had a buddy years ago ask me if I had any postiza fowl ready for this weekend. I said I have a real good cock but he is not conditioned. He said bring him. I took him out of a 4x4 pen three days before, and pointed him. Ten minute time limit. It was a draw but if I would of had steel on. Over in thirty seconds. I took both his eyes early. He took one of mine. Every time I put him down he kept getting back up. This cock had been conditioned for 2 months. I cut him to smitherines. The next day my buddy called I and said. The other guy called him and said my cock put 60 holes under his wings.

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    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    What if your 3 time winner a few weeks out is heavy , light or lost some breast ? What if that good weather turns sour a few days out ? You haul them and the climate at the pit is way off what they're used to ? It's muggy or cold/dry or raining. .. You dump them before loading and they held moisture all night and are way behind coming on ?

    What if your ace hangs up .. In a split second do you count him or let the other cock fade ? Great cocks can take you with them and great handlers can use that free twenty seconds to turn it around . Your ace gets rattled and nerve blind .. Then what .. Leave him alone for the rattle or hold his head down and heat him up for the nerve shot ?

    Only a fair weather cocker can rely on brood pen alone when the weather is fair to win .. To just keep them level and at the same place they are in fair weather takes a lot of work and experience but if everyone knew that then where would the pot money come from?

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    Senior Member moseley's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    I'd take feeder over heeler and handler. I'd take handler over heeler. And I'd take great fowl over all them.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    What if your 3 time winner a few weeks out is heavy , light or lost some breast ? What if that good weather turns sour a few days out ? You haul them and the climate at the pit is way off what they're used to ? It's muggy or cold/dry or raining. .. You dump them before loading and they held moisture all night and are way behind coming on ?

    What if your ace hangs up .. In a split second do you count him or let the other cock fade ? Great cocks can take you with them and great handlers can use that free twenty seconds to turn it around . Your ace gets rattled and nerve blind .. Then what .. Leave him alone for the rattle or hold his head down and heat him up for the nerve shot ?

    Only a fair weather cocker can rely on brood pen alone when the weather is fair to win .. To just keep them level and at the same place they are in fair weather takes a lot of work and experience but if everyone knew that then where would the pot money come from?
    We must be a fair weather cockers lol. Or just be damn lucky for over 25 yearsbirds. Cause I know it damn sure ain’t us lol
    Damn good breeding and just keeping them at there weight year round, active and mentally sharp in addition to getting them familiar with boxes and noises & driving, is all we do. I agree some fowl need keeps.

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    If you have a good feeder & bad heeler or vice versa your still screwed ....I don't know about making them better but, I do believe in fine tuning them.... If your not a dumbass & have common sense you'll be ok. I recall yrs ago dad was like "his friends" how good they were as cockers.... I laughed & told him the day they get lesser cocks opposed to the real good one's & win than I'll agree.....still waitin ...same goes with pitters

    Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    EVERYOE wants to take credit for the breeder.
    70-80% is the breeder. 5% is feeding and, I’m being VERY generous, 5% is tying. You either know how to tie your shoes or you don’t.
    Couldn't have said it better myself I do it all myself breed feed and heel like that There is no excuse as for y did or did not come on top but I honestly believe that if your bird has good genes and ability there is no one who can make them do something they were not made to do doesn't matter who the feeder or heeler it is

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    Senior Member lucasemerson's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    I'll promise u if u ain't got a good rooster it don't matter 1% who heels him lol...good rooster will cut with a rusty nail tied on him

    Lucas

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Told this once before. Years ago had a friend get the birds ready for some reason. They were maybe 2 ounces overweight. On show day I picked them up and no bull$hit. They were 7-8 ounces lighter. I asked him why he did that. He said as an experiment. His show was was little heavy. He said he wanted to see what worked best. I shook my head figuring it’s done why cry over spilt milk.
    Long story short I won the derby quite easily. I know NOBODY would of taken birds like that to a show. I did cause I knew how good they were. They won inspite of our stupidity.

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    Senior Member MAD MAX's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    If you speak of the gaff and you are using modern flange Gaffs the heeler does not even come into the equation really as you really have to try to tie them on wrong. I am told it is different in the Knife but I really know little about that. Gaff is the only way for me.

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    This topic went over the hill lol

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    I'll take a good rooster, any day. I didn't keep anything that I didn't think I could win a derby fight with. You can't win a horse race with a jackass. My mentor helped me spar one Sunday and the cocks were burning it up. His comment to me about feeding was" You got them right, now your job is not to F--- them up between now and Saturday.
    With our self setting sockets all you can do is raise or lower the point of the gaff. Maybe shift the point a little forward or backward. Best thing is use different set of gaffs that fit better for what you think that cock needs.
    An average handler is sufficient if your cocks are good enough to stay out of the drag. Kinda hard win if you full of holes. With a little time, you can pick up the finer points of handling, especially if you are tall, lean and quick It takes 2 yrs to get them to the pit and he might as well be a good un..
    Then you have to deal with LUCK.
    For you guys that think top rate cocks don't matter, raise 100 of what you think are derby winning cocks that a good feeder and handler can win with. Go thru that 100 cocks twice and pick your A & B cocks out and sell them. Then fight what is left. See how many derbies you win.

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    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Not one person on earth doesn't want outstanding fowl .. But if you think feeding , heeling andandling don't count for half hen idsay you show small time ,close to home and ont win as much as you put ob

    If we pick from the same yard and you are only average at pointing , heeling and handling then I will beat you 2-1 on good weather days and 3-1 on the bad ...

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Not one person on earth doesn't want outstanding fowl .. But if you think feeding , heeling andandling don't count for half hen idsay you show small time ,close to home and ont win as much as you put ob

    If we pick from the same yard and you are only average at pointing , heeling and handling then I will beat you 2-1 on good weather days and 3-1 on the bad ...

    Yup, that’s possible.......................................... ...

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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    I’ve found most people think they understand the fight game. They may know roosters but they don’t get intricate aspects of fighting in general ( forget the chickens for a moment). You can’t exploit what you can’t conceive.
    People think just cause you got an arm and a fist that that’s all you need to fight.
    Sometimes your playing catch-up before you enter the pit. In my humble opinion, I know everyone wins but few do it consistently. Most of us on here are chicken aficionados. We’re far from going professional. If there’s such a thing now a days.
    Most big mouths on here are IN SEARCH of the perfect chicken. They’ve been doing it for DECADES. You can see it in there writting. It’s obvious but there oblivious to it. There always chasing there tail.
    Now, I’ll tell you a secret. There’s no such thing as a “perfect chicken” but there is such a thing as a “tuff to whip game plan”. Most will never get what I’m saying. It ain’t the chicken.
    Impatience and lack of tenacity will keep you searching for a lifetime.

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  36. #26
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Your statement covers a lot of territory. Your statement also not very likely around my neck of the woods. A true test would be for you to have come to my yard with your proposition and give me first pick and you would find that feeding, heeling and handling is more like 20% and good cocks the rest.

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    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    Your statement covers a lot of territory. Your statement also not very likely around my neck of the woods. A true test would be for you to have come to my yard with your proposition and give me first pick and you would find that feeding, heeling and handling is more like 20% and good cocks the rest.
    How about you take first pick ,, we wring the necks of the culls you tried to put on me and then split the good ones and you try to halfazz feed and handle a winning main

  39. #28
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    I like that point. “A bird will never perform above his breeding”.
    You either have talent or you don’t. You can never make a Mayweather perform much better than he is BUT you sure as hell can screw him up. When I have a very talented bird that a 3 time winner. All I’m trying to do is keep him happy but some of us think we can make him “better”.
    Its funny. When I have a very good bird whose never been showed. I tend to think I can make him better. I don’t think that way of a 3 time ace.
    Thanks, I liked the point you made bout either you know how to tie your shoes or you don't . I think its simple as that . I think in no way does a heeler compare with a feeder or breeder or a handler.
    LOL, yes sir, theres no doubt a man can screw them up a lot more than he can help them . A man that takes a well bred cutting rooster and doesn't know what he is doing conditioning or even a man out of practice can turn an ace into a mediocre or all out dud. Ive heard people say anyone can throw above average chickens in the brood pen and come out with above average chickens. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I wish it was that easy. I saw many well respected cocker get new broodfowl and be hell for first couple of years then fade out by poor breeding practices.
    People by nature want to blame something when things don't work out the way they want . Blame the heeler, blame the feeder or the handler when the truth is the majority of the time they have shown up with roosters that weren't as well bred as the rooster they lost to or they have took a well bred rooster and screwed him up. I do believe that you can do certain things to help fowl be a little stronger , a little tougher and perform to the best of his ability but that's as far as it goes. " BEST OF HIS ABILITY " That starts in the brood pens guys . Then like you said if you don't screw them up , that will be all you can get out of them ( what was bred there to start with ) . I think its worth repeating one more time “A bird will never perform above his breeding”. No matter who feeds, ties or handles. But to get the best of his ability you have to know what youre doing in all the other areas as well. Pretty much all goes hand in hand but it starts in the brood pens .

  40. #29
    Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhman1026 View Post
    i'll take a good rooster, any day. I didn't keep anything that i didn't think i could win a derby fight with. You can't win a horse race with a jackass. My mentor helped me spar one sunday and the cocks were burning it up. His comment to me about feeding was" you got them right, now your job is not to f--- them up between now and saturday.
    With our self setting sockets all you can do is raise or lower the point of the gaff. Maybe shift the point a little forward or backward. Best thing is use different set of gaffs that fit better for what you think that cock needs.
    An average handler is sufficient if your cocks are good enough to stay out of the drag. Kinda hard win if you full of holes. With a little time, you can pick up the finer points of handling, especially if you are tall, lean and quick it takes 2 yrs to get them to the pit and he might as well be a good un..
    Then you have to deal with luck.
    For you guys that think top rate cocks don't matter, raise 100 of what you think are derby winning cocks that a good feeder and handler can win with. Go thru that 100 cocks twice and pick your a & b cocks out and sell them. Then fight what is left. See how many derbies you win.
    good ol lady luck . Its a love hate relationship. She will spread em wide or shut you down cold no matter if you have done everything right.

  41. #30
    Senior Member springwater's Avatar
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    Re: Good feeder or good heeler.

    If you are in less than top competition, then I think you could probably still win a good majority with only good solid bred roosters without much conditioning and pointing as a lot of times you may not be meeting roosters that have not been conditioned and pointed correctly also. But if you are in top competition, you better have good roosters that are conditioned and pointed. In the top levels, there are probably 85% of the people there with quality bred roosters. There is always a few entries with experiments that are not turning out as expected and a few with more money than rooster sense. So if two good roosters meet, the one who is ready that day will win most of the time, there is still a little leadway for luck also. Sunset, which was one of the toughest pits to point in because of radical changes in weather in a matter of minutes, was a good example. Most people had good bloodlines, it just came down to who could keep them sharp all weekend. Many times I would see an entry go 4-0 first day and second day go 0-4. They didn't change bloodlines or quality of roosters, they was just a touch off that second day and the line between winning and losing was that close.
    Last edited by springwater; April 1st, 2018 at 08:10 PM.

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