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Thread: What were your weights headed into the pit??

  
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    What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Wondering back when we were free and legal in some states, what were some of your weights that your lines would come in at? I recall my Hatch Muggs were from 4.10 to 4.14, rarely some at 5 even and the Hatch RH at 5.2 to 5.6 range. I always preferred the 4.12 to 5 range. Some like the bigger ones like 5.12 and the only time we had those sizes were with the Kelso's (new blood line) and Kelso RH, 5.15 and 6.0 which wasnt for very long because we lost the cock soon thereafter. Reason is that I know some of you speak of your lines with much pride, and rightfully so, that youve either developed and or acquired and have cared for and raised these for many years. So Im just wondering what weights did yours come in at back in the day.
    Last edited by KevinG; September 11th, 2018 at 08:38 PM.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    The original breeder of our kelso had weight from 5:13- 7 pounds and bigger. His brother loved using the bigger birds cause they were so athletic even that big.
    Our birds averaged 5:6-6 pounds. We fed different and bred for Longheel wins. They are now they average between 4:08- 5 pounds.
    I forgot to add initially our line of kelsos were made from kelso/hatches. Those were the 7 pounders.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; September 11th, 2018 at 08:30 PM.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Thats good to hear, now I have a sense of the size yours came in. Seen some big ones that could move like yours. Id of kept the Kelso line longer, they were quick footed also but lost the rooster not long after we got him and just really cldnt do much afterwards.
    Last edited by KevinG; September 11th, 2018 at 08:39 PM.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Most of my breeds are 4.6 to 4.12 most of my brood stuff I have had for years and inbreeding tends to produce litter weights but then white hackles all look 6 pounds but they range from 4.10 to 5.2 they just have big frames they always look bigger than even matched opponent

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Right, hear that. Thats how the Butchers we have are, wide bodied and look heavy but not nearly what youd think.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Most of mine have been 5:04 to 6:00. But I've carried a 6:06 to five derbies in a row befor I got hm matched. I sent a 7:00 to the Phillipines for the price of a ticket. He was a good one but could never match him. I was told he whooped a 5x winning sweater.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    I bet he was Del. So they found a match and put him in there at about 7 lbs huh? Yours came and stayed bigger than ours, like Ive read abt the original Muggs. Surely after we crossed back to Mclean after the initial breeding it downsized them though. Their weight and size was in their thighs mostly, big ones.
    Last edited by KevinG; September 11th, 2018 at 10:15 PM.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    Most of mine have been 5:04 to 6:00. But I've carried a 6:06 to five derbies in a row befor I got hm matched. I sent a 7:00 to the Phillipines for the price of a ticket. He was a good one but could never match him. I was told he whooped a 5x winning sweater.
    Hey Del, what did you finally match that 6.6 into?

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    He matched a 6:04 can't remember much but it was short and sweet. I fought a 6:12 at Red Arrow n an 8 cock. The first fight of the derby. They announced it as we come in as two 6:12's. Mine was 1/2 mug and 1/2 black church. Mine killed that one head high the first pitting.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
    Thats good to hear, now I have a sense of the size yours came in. Seen some big ones that could move like yours. Id of kept the Kelso line longer, they were quick footed also but lost the rooster not long after we got him and just really cldnt do much afterwards.
    Our line started from one rooster who was extraordinary. We never knew his make up. He was bred cause he was good and went from there. We noticed that the straight comb white legged won more than the yellow legs or green legs or pea combs. If we got a average cock that was straight comb white legged. He was never used for breeding. I say this cause people use looks far to much to determine value. Performance was always #1 to the original breeder and us.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    Our line started from one rooster who was extraordinary. We never knew his make up. He was bred cause he was good and went from there. We noticed that the straight comb white legged won more than the yellow legs or green legs or pea combs. If we got a average cock that was straight comb white legged. He was never used for breeding. I say this cause people use looks far to much to determine value. Performance was always #1 to the original breeder and us.
    You nailed it and its impossible to argue that, it is about performance so that you have a better chance of winning. Im sure youve bulldozed through alot of pretty ones with those WL SC. How can one let go of such a bird whose prepotent for great ability simply because it doesnt have the popular name attached to it, yet I bet most would. Do you get dark reds out of him or lights?
    Last edited by KevinG; September 11th, 2018 at 11:40 PM.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Fleming doms 5-0 to 5-8, white doms 5-8 to 7-8 depending on what time of year I hatched them. Blueface and grey and red manziels 5-4 to 6-4. McClanahan, 5-0 to 6-0. Cooke hatch 4-12 to 5-8. Law grey 5-0 to 5-12

    I tried to breed them smaller, but you know those folks that told me if I inbred my birds they would come smaller? They lied, the biggest birds I raised were tightly bred.

    The toughest competition I saw was cocks 4-4 and under, 5-0 to 5-8 and shakes.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    RedAngus, thats good to hear. So you showed alot of Doms, thats cool. Ive seen some around over the years and the ones I saw in G I was surprised. Most of them wld show in sk but the ones that this one guy had he d show em in G and they surprised me, did well!

    Haha, so the tight bred made them even larger huh. Hey, never know what mother nature is gonna do even when she s not supposed to right.

    So what times of year give you your bigger birds? Those are some big one also, 7.8. Ive had some brood cocks through the years almost reach the 7 but hardly ever 6 when entering the cage.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBlue View Post
    He matched a 6:04 can't remember much but it was short and sweet. I fought a 6:12 at Red Arrow n an 8 cock. The first fight of the derby. They announced it as we come in as two 6:12's. Mine was 1/2 mug and 1/2 black church. Mine killed that one head high the first pitting.
    Grand entrance for the 6.12s lol. Those are some tanks going at it! Did he go in the gaff?

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
    RedAngus, thats good to hear. So you showed alot of Doms, thats cool. Ive seen some around over the years and the ones I saw in G I was surprised. Most of them wld show in sk but the ones that this one guy had he d show em in G and they surprised me, did well!

    Haha, so the tight bred made them even larger huh. Hey, never know what mother nature is gonna do even when she s not supposed to right.

    So what times of year give you your bigger birds? Those are some big one also, 7.8. Ive had some brood cocks through the years almost reach the 7 but hardly ever 6 when entering the cage.
    Those big doms were out of a 6-2 hen and a 5-12 cock, they were hatched in March to april, after two years I tried to hatch those in september. I hated that hens size but she threw nothing but aces. I haven't owned those birds in years. She was my original brood hen I always picked the smallest hens and cocks with good conformation to breed out of after I raised some.

    I had a hen come 6-8 out of that pair, who knows what kind of turkeys she would have thrown. She sat a lot of eggs for me, I gave her to a guy with some 4-0 to 4-4 white hatch chickens, he wanted every hen I could raise. He got kind of mad at me when I told him I already gave him all the hens I could spare. He bred her to a tiny asil like 3-12 or so and kept breeding back to her, crossed to those little hatch they looked tough to whip. I never did have to match into them though.

    I mostly fought gaff, I usually won in 5 pittings or less, pulled out a lot of drags, but they shined in the main pit. Those doms and McClanahan chickens had identical styles and identical cut, the only difference was size, color and the Fleming doms were pea headed, the whites and McClanahan's were straight combed.

    I fought a lot of dime and nickel stags out of them into cocks. Did really well too. I took one of Guilliams rh cocks out of the air with a Fleming dom stag, a couple weeks later I lost a brother to that same stag to a Charlie Carr roundhead at a small pit. He rattled the hell out of that Carr rh, that's when I decided to keep that line. I only raised 9 the first year I had them and I fought several derbies with them. I fought mostly dom and mcclanahan, with hatch and grey occasionally crossed to them.

    The second year I didn't toe mark them, big mistake, I lost that whole years worth of potential brood fowl because I couldn't tell pure from yard hatch. I'll always stop and look at good dom chickens and flirt with buying them, because I know how truly deadly good ones are.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    I always wondered, when legal, if there was an advantage to bringing a show that was all in same weight class. Like all fell in 5 to 5:4. And if so what weight had the advantage for you?

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    At the local pit I went to back in the day yes. It was 3-4 guys at 4-0 to 4-4 competing with each other, 6 to 8 of us fighting 5-0 to 5-8, and 3 or 4 of us fighting shakes and the other guys. If you fought between those weights and did well you had a much better shot at winning the derby while the "favorites" beat up on each other.

    Most pits the grueling competition seemed to be 4-4 to 4-12, and 5-0 to 5-8. There's good competition at all weights, but to me those seemed to be the weights the best cocks came in on average. That's where you saw the guys across from you that you didn't want to see. Well I actually preferred them.
    Last edited by RedAngus; September 12th, 2018 at 12:55 AM.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    I believe most of the best cocks are 4:14-5:06. That's day in and day out some have better small cocks others have better large cocks. Most of my brood cocks have been big as they had to win several to make the brood pen and the big ones were my best usually.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    I like mine 2 b n the 4.12-5.03 range. Your guna meet tuff n that range but to be tuff u guys meet tuff. I don't want anything if I didn't earn it.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    3 different areas 3 different weight ranges, I guess it all depends on the preferences of those in that area

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
    You nailed it and its impossible to argue that, it is about performance so that you have a better chance of winning. Im sure youve bulldozed through alot of pretty ones with those WL SC. How can one let go of such a bird whose prepotent for great ability simply because it doesnt have the popular name attached to it, yet I bet most would. Do you get dark reds out of him or lights?
    They mostly come wine colored but we do get some with a lighter color.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    They mostly come wine colored but we do get some with a lighter color.
    The one in your avatar is of that line right?

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    I always liked small cocks best and tried to breed for them. At my place 5.6 was a big cock. A few times I put all small cocks in a show and had good luck doing this. I have entered many 4.2 when the bottom weight posted was 4.4. Also entered some 4.0 and 4.1. The matchmaker would match them as close as he could.. If the little cocks were good enough, I would give the weight because I figured I would meet stunted birds or birds that had been sick at some time or late hatched. Another reason I had success with bottom weights was they hit hard for their size. I think the tuffest weights overall was 5.0 up to about 5.12 because there was more of them so the chance of meeting ace cocks was greater. Before I went to raising H/RH I had some Albany/H that came big. I hauled a 6.7 to every show to hack as a 2yr. old and never got him matched. I fought him 4 times as a three yr. old. Athletic big cocks have the advantage,IMO. I never bred a big hen. I wanted my brood cocks to weigh 5.0 if possible. I had a lot of choices for my pitcock brood pens because I kept only my line of Lacy hens on my yard the last few years I had fowl. I tried to keep 50 Lacy females.
    Last edited by RHman1026; September 12th, 2018 at 12:55 PM.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Quote Originally Posted by RHman1026 View Post
    I always liked small cocks best and tried to breed for them. At my place 5.6 was a big cock. A few times I put all small cocks in a show and had good luck doing this. I have entered many 4.2 when the bottom weight posted was 4.4. Also entered some 4.0 and 4.1. The matchmaker would match them as close as he could.. If the little cocks were good enough, I would give the weight because I figured I would meet stunted birds or birds that had been sick at some time or late hatched. Another reason I had success with bottom weights was they hit hard for their size. I think the tuffest weights overall was 5.0 up to about 5.12 because there was more of them so the chance of meeting ace cocks was greater. Before I went to raising H/RH I had some Albany/H that came big. I hauled a 6.7 to every show to hack as a 2yr. old and never got him matched. I fought him 4 times as a three yr. old. Athletic big cocks have the advantage,IMO. I never bred a big hen. I wanted my brood cocks to weigh 5.0 if possible. I had a lot of choices for my pitcock brood pens because I kept only my line of Lacy hens on my yard the last few years I had fowl. I tried to keep 50 Lacy females.
    I hear you, those athletic big ones do have an advantage over their equal sized but slow footed opponent I agree. Appreciate the feedback from you RHMan and everyone else who has and will post, always wondered what sizes y'alls birds were that you all often spoke about. You know i do recall times we had some that would come small, nothing wrong with them at all. They were for some reason always really good at what they did, for some reason is seemed they tried harder imo. I never really was one to say that they have to be in the 5 pound range or anything like that. What I sought after some years is to establish lines within that gave me a consistent weight/size group. I know the line of one hen now is gonna give me certain weight and size stags and pullets no matter if the brood cock is small or shorter in stature as compared to other cocks of his bloodline. She has controlled every breeding and the offspring, her offspring doing the same. Her brothers were big birds and she was not a small hen but not a giant also, just a good stature and wide shoulders, never sick and good health pea combed hen. I figured I could put some cocks over her from a smaller line and bring them down a little bit so they arent as big as her brothers but (nope). The females off that line do the same, of which those came about after breeding 2 smaller brothers to that hen in 2 different seasons and both matings produced stags and pullets that all took after her. I recall a time when if we also had a mid 5 or above they were larger than most. You occasionally have someone come by and that's what catches their eye no matter what lol, they loved the bigger sized roosters but I can honestly say that I never tried to breed towards it just on that alone. Truth is for example on one family, the ones (if you ever get them) that come 4.7 to 4.12 are the better ones. They usually range from that up to 5.8 (a pound weight spread up to about 4 years of age and then these larger ones put more weight on naturally that over 6 lbs is easy to find) so that's why Ive tried to find lines within that I could separate and have some type of prediction about what Id be hatching size wise of the same lines that gave me those good ones in the 4.7 to 4.12 range. I was in search of that range 4.7 to 4.12 consistently, those were the more successful ones as a whole. Sure I knew that some hens would put them out, but the quantity was few and far between when compared to the 5 and up. It's just a shot at it and I've now mildly ascertained some that I can more or less rely on to give me a certain yield in terms of size/weight. It was just more of something to do, to see if I cld fine tune it and if I don't get it down to where Id have liked it to then it's not a big deal at all.

    Makes alot of sense, I hear you in your assertion about meeting stunted or ill effected birds that didn't grow well because of it while your sizes were from neither of the 2. 50 hens to choose from is what you had huh, would you end up using most of them during a season? So your hens when mated to the hatch rooster were going to more or less produce stags in the 4.0 to 4.4. range? Was the deviation in that weight range frequent or hardly ever? Good to hear on that Albany/H. You no longer cross them Im thinking but when you did, did your Alb/H frequently come too big that it was a pain finding weights in the 6.4 range?

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    Senior Member southernX's Avatar
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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Between 5.0 and 6.0 is fine with me. I don't care much for cocks under 5lbs. Most anything under 5.0 we hack in the barn. Just my taste. I wont breed anything under 5lbs. I don't care if there a double barreled ace.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Quote Originally Posted by southernX View Post
    Between 5.0 and 6.0 is fine with me. I don't care much for cocks under 5lbs. Most anything under 5.0 we hack in the barn. Just my taste. I wont breed anything under 5lbs. I don't care if there a double barreled ace.
    So many preferences, and most want the big ones S'X. What weights did you mostly come in at?

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Lots of insight in this thread if you’re paying attention, I believe. I always was good for raising birds in the 4.12-5.2 range, with a few at 4.8-4.10 but rarely any lighter and a few 5.4s but rarely much heavier. That was my favorite range too, but I believe that’s also where the heart of the competition was.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    I liked the best from 5.6 to just under derby weight. I love to hear and see two big roosters that are in SHAPE, come together. Just something about it. Used to be all cocks were 5.2 to 6.0 years ago. I also like to see shakes that are in shape go. Just something about that sound, like music to my ears. To answer your question our average weight was 5.6 + or - an ounce.

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    I try to get my high 5s low 6s all in one entry. Its been a consistent positive!

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    Re: What were your weights headed into the pit??

    Most cockers show there cocks over weight. Most cocks at 5.5 and up are carrying 2-4 oz of fat in there ass. If there's fat in there ass, there's hard fat on there gizzard and heart. That's why I always preach don't let your cocks get fat. EVER. What you feel in there ass is only the topping on the cake. I know theres folks that will tell you they can get the fat off quick with oats, Apple cider vinegar, hard boiled eggs etc. It aint true. The time it takes to put the weight on a cock it takes 1 1/2 times longer to get it off and him back in shape. I don't care who tells you different. Oh yeah you can starve them down but that's just what you will end up with. Just like youll hear folks say I like them alittle fat in the moult. It don't help them believe me.

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